the paradox of demigender and circumgender /afab trans woman and amab trans man

[AVEN #1 fan]

OK,  so demiboy/demigirl are terms for people who identify mostly as boy or girl, which is a pretty open definition, so genderfluid/multigender people can use it and gnc and genderqueer boys and girls whether cis or Trans can use too.

 

So, there's a huge debate whether on not demiboy and demigirl are binary or enby gender identities.... like its problematic and I'll tell you why

 

Like if we consider demigirl and demiboy as enby identities , we'll be also considering Transgender identities .... and you know like , for example, afab people who identify as demigirls will be able to say they're Trans girls bc they're girls inside the Transgender umbrella.

I think this was already done, we already have people identifying as circumboys or cimcumgirls,  like, when you're afab and identify as Trans girl.

 

[Was here]

I guess demigenders are both (NB and binaary).

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, (D)anny said:

I guess demigenders are both (NB and binaary).

Yup.

 

so, I guess it's not wrong to call yourself a Trans man if you're amab or Trans woman as afab.

[Was here]

I wouldn't personally call myself that, though. It would seem weird to say I'm a transgirl when I'm already a girl biologically. I didn't mean that people should identify as that (transman/woman when their biological sex is already male/female), but that a demigender person is oth nonbinary and binary at the same time, i guess. I use demigirl/demiboy for myself mentally because it means kind of agender, kind of girl/boy.

[Guest And Peggy]

37 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yup.

 

so, I guess it's not wrong to call yourself a Trans man if you're amab or Trans woman as afab.

People really shouldn't do that though, as it's coopting the oppression of AFAB men and AMAB women.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Genderfluids and multigenders could also call themselves Trans men and women, following that logic.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, (D)anny said:

I wouldn't personally call myself that, thought. It would seem weird to say I'm a transgirl when I'm already a girl biologically.

Idk,  if you view Trans girl as "being a girl inside the Trans spectrum", it gets less odd.

[ChillaKilla]

2 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Idk,  if you view Trans girl as "being a girl inside the Trans spectrum", it gets less odd.

But that's not what trans woman means. It means AMAB transitioning to female. And like Peggy said, it's co-opting the struggles of trans women and trans men.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, ChillaKilla said:

But that's not what trans woman means. It means AMAB transitioning to female. And like Peggy said, it's co-opting the struggles of trans women and trans men.

Idk,  maybe if we say "mtf Trans woman" and "ftm Trans man" the problem is solved.

[Guest And Peggy]

6 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Idk,  if you view Trans girl as "being a girl inside the Trans spectrum", it gets less odd.

That's not what trans girl means though. it means a woman who was assigned male at birth, which is wikipedia's definition. 

 

A lot of AFAB men and AMAB women would consider it offensive to ID as an AFAB trans girl or AMAB trans guy.

[ChillaKilla]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

Idk,  maybe if we say "mtf Trans woman" and "ftm Trans man" the problem is solved.

But saying "mtf" and "ftm" implies that they aren't the gender they truly are. Trans women aren't "men to women", they've always been women. Vice versa for trans men. I don't see any people who currently identify as demigender in this thread complaining about this so we should just leave it and not try and make a non-existent issue a big deal.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, ChillaKilla said:

But saying "mtf" and "ftm" implies that they aren't the gender they truly are. Trans women aren't "men to women", they've always been women. Vice versa for trans men. I don't see any people who currently identify as demigender in this thread complaining about this so we should just leave it and not try and make a non-existent issue a big deal.

Well, they were assigned male but are revealing to be female or assigned female and revealing to be male.

 

Idk,  doctors use that all the time. 

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, And Peggy said:

That's not what trans girl means though, in my definition. it means a woman who was assigned male at birth, which is wikipedia's definition. 

 

A lot of AFAB men and AMAB women would consider it offensive to ID as an AFAB trans girl or AMAB trans guy.

Yeah,  like demigirls and mtf trans girls don't suffer the same prejudices. They do.

[ChillaKilla]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yeah,  like demigirls and mtf trans girls don't suffer the same prejudices. They do.

Maybe AMAB demigirls but AFAB demigirls? Not at all.

[ChillaKilla]

2 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Well, they were assigned male but are revealing to be female or assigned female and revealing to be male.

 

Idk,  doctors use that all the time. 

Doctors also called being transgender "transvestic fetishism" and thought conversion therapy was valid for decades. We all know medical science isn't always up to speed on this.

[Guest And Peggy]

3 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yeah,  like demigirls and mtf trans girls don't suffer the same prejudices. They do.

are you seriously comparing the systemic oppression of trans women to afab demigirls

 

this is wild y'all

[Guest And Peggy]

Forgot to add — I'm an afab girlflux person, which is similar to demigirl, but I'd never call myself a trans woman. It's disrespectful and not accurate imo.

[AVEN #1 fan]

2 hours ago, ChillaKilla said:

Maybe AMAB demigirls but AFAB demigirls? Not at all.

Yeah, sure butch, gnc and genderqueer girls don't get expelled from bathrooms nor suffer from transphobia and homophobia and are constantly disqualified as girls bc" they're not 100% women".

[AVEN #1 fan]

2 hours ago, And Peggy said:

are you seriously comparing the systemic oppression of trans women to afab demigirls

 

this is wild y'all

Yeah, bc any kind of women who doesn't fit into the sexist social norms face damn bullshits.

[Four Eyed Lemon]

The definition of nonbinary I always see is not identifying 100% as a man or woman. And I've always thought of demigender like this. If gender is a glass bottle with a certain capacity, a binary man or woman would have that bottle 100% full of 100% man or woman. An agender person would have an empty bottle. And a demigender person would have one type of liquid inside, but it's only partially full. If that makes sense? I thought that up when I used to identify as a demiguy.

 

As far as AMAB men calling themselves trans men and AFAB women calling themselves trans women, the way you're using the logic would make sense technically. However, it would be extremely disrespectful and trivializing the struggles that actual trans men and trans women face. 

 

Let me tell you something, as a kinda-transmasculine person who's almost always read as a butch lesbian. I don't get second glances in women's bathrooms, which I use for safety reasons (and because I'm not out). Nobody seems to care that I bind (though I doubt they even recognize what I'm doing when I have a mostly-flat chest). As someone who's not super-visibly trans and is read as my birth sex, I'm treated just fine aside from very minimal amounts of homophobia I've experienced when I identified as a trans man and was dating another trans man (we were read as lesbians). I've never been attacked in public. I've never been kicked out of a bathroom (men's or women's, and I've been in both), I've never been threatened in public. These are all things that visibly trans people, trans women especially, can experience just for existing in public. So yeah, DFAB demigirls and DMAB demiguys have no right to call themselves trans women or trans men respectively.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, Four Eyed Lemon said:

The definition of nonbinary I always see is not identifying 100% as a man or woman. And I've always thought of demigender like this. If gender is a glass bottle with a certain capacity, a binary man or woman would have that bottle 100% full of 100% man or woman. An agender person would have an empty bottle. And a demigender person would have one type of liquid inside, but it's only partially full. If that makes sense? I thought that up when I used to identify as a demiguy.

 

As far as AMAB men calling themselves trans men and AFAB women calling themselves trans women, the way you're using the logic would make sense technically. However, it would be extremely disrespectful and trivializing the struggles that actual trans men and trans women face. 

 

Let me tell you something, as a kinda-transmasculine person who's almost always read as a butch lesbian. I don't get second glances in women's bathrooms, which I use for safety reasons (and because I'm not out). Nobody seems to care that I bind (though I doubt they even recognize what I'm doing when I have a mostly-flat chest). As someone who's not super-visibly trans and is read as my birth sex, I'm treated just fine aside from very minimal amounts of homophobia I've experienced when I identified as a trans man and was dating another trans man (we were read as lesbians). I've never been attacked in public. I've never been kicked out of a bathroom (men's or women's, and I've been in both), I've never been threatened in public. These are all things that visibly trans people, trans women especially, can experience just for existing in public. So yeah, DFAB demigirls and DMAB demiguys have no right to call themselves trans women or trans men respectively.

Well, prejudice stuff happens,  it just doesn't happen with everyone,  a lot of trans woman don't suffer transphobia or pass,  etc.

 

Anyway,  if enby stands for not being 100% a man or a woman, what makes somebody 100% a man or woman ?the majority of men and women fit it?

[Four Eyed Lemon]

1 minute ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Well, prejudice stuff happens,  it just doesn't happen with everyone,  a lot of trans woman don't suffer transphobia or pass,  etc.

 

Anyway,  if enby stands for not being 100% a man or a woman, what makes somebody 100% a man or woman ?the majority of men and women fit it?

The way they prefer to identify themselves is what makes someone not 100% man or 100% woman. There's really no standardized way of declaring it; it's all extremely subjective, and I can't speak on other people's way of pinpointing how to identify their gender. But, take me. On some days (arguably most), I'm neutrally inclined but there are days where I feel partially male. It's vaguely defined and I can't really explain further (not for lack of trying), but that's me.

[Emery.]

Oh c'mon, it doesn't make sense to call yourself trans if you identify with your sex but not wholly and this is it. It's not what people mean when they say this word.

[jehoshabeath]

I'm AFAB demigirl, but I don't consider myself a trans girl.  I've tried living fully as a female, but it felt wrong.  At the same time, I don't want to fully transition to a neutral gender like neutrois.  I feel like I'm standing in the weird space between agender and female, but not moving toward either direction.

[ChillaKilla]

9 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yeah, sure butch, gnc and genderqueer girls don't get expelled from bathrooms nor suffer from transphobia and homophobia and are constantly disqualified as girls bc" they're not 100% women".

You really, honest-to-god believe that a trans woman, who may spend thousands of dollars undergoing numerous extremely invasive surgical procedures, may have to be medicated for the rest of her life with hormone supplements, experiences violence from every direction, has the shortest average lifespan of any sexual minority, may be excommunicated from her friends and family, and STILL may not even be viewed as the gender she truly is, faces the same level of oppression as a butch lesbian who gets eyeballed in the bathroom every now and then?!

[ChillaKilla]

1 hour ago, jehoshabeath said:

 

I'm AFAB demigirl, but I don't consider myself a trans girl.

 

^^^^^^

 

now let's get a transfeminine person in here to lay it down once and for all: AFAB people calling themselves trans women is utterly disrespectful of the extreme multitudes of struggles that AMAB trans women face.

[Guest And Peggy]

@AVEN #1 fan Are you actually serious? Oh my god.

[Guest And Peggy]

This thread makes me so mad, honestly.

[Guest]

I absolutly a 100% think it's not okay to invalidate trans identities.Also, if you wanna discuss the paradox of these genders you listed then at least listen to other members opinions rather then bulldozer them with how they are wrong about the entire FTM/MTF thing.

[999papercranes]

I think demigender people can identify as either binary or nonbinary if they wish to do so. They should NOT call themselves transgirls if they are afab or transguys if they are amab, however. This is trivializing the struggles of all amab transwomen and afab transmen, which is definitely not ok.