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[Lord Jade Cross]

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[gaogao]

I haven't read all of this so forgive me if this has already been said... but I wanted to put it out there that I think it's important to have emotional independence even outside the context of asexuality and I really don't understand people that put it down. 

 

Relationships don't always work out, and people who are dependent on them tend to have less healthy reactions to being rejected or realising that their partner/s (or even their friends) are not really right for them. I actually think emotionally healthy non-ace and non-aro people are usually pretty emotionally independent in general - even when they are in relationships they have a sense of self and don't depend on their partner for happiness. 

 

Society makes people think that a relationship is necessary for happiness... but really, a good relationship with yourself is the most important thing. Attaching another person to you to boost your self-esteem is at most putting a band-aid on the problem and it'll just surface again if you're not careful. 

 

I think a lot of people equate relationships to being able to connect with other people - and while i do think it's important to have a support network and friends or family or just people who care about you, they forget you don't need romance or sex specifically for those things. /shrugs

[vega57]

10 hours ago, 200 Ponies said:

I think that's a pretty powerful statement there. Someone who genuinely does not want a relationship for no reason other than not wanting one is considered insane by society's standards. I know I've been ridiculed and argued with about that countless times. I also went to a Christian high school so everyone thought I should "find a nice man and become a homemaker." (Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it just isn't what I want.)

 

If you don't find a partner, you're "doomed" to a life of being single and looked down upon by all your married friends. Oh well. I guess I'll just have to trade marriage for emotional and financial independence! 

Yes! 

Recently I re-read The Hite Report: A National Study of Female Sexuality: Shere Hite.  It was first published in 1976, but even back then, women were complaining about how they were seen as "dysfunctional", "abnormal", "frigid", "neurotic", "psychotic", "hung-up" and/or "emotionally disturbed" if they said 'no' to sex/relationships. 

 

Ironically, Back in the 1950s, you were considered "dysfunctional", "abnormal", "loose", "neurotic", "psychotic" and/or "emotionally disturbed" if you were a woman who said 'yes' to sex before marriage!  So, in a span of less than 20 years, we went from a society who condemns pre-marital sex to one that encourages pre-marital sex. 

 

I tend to 'haunt' other relationship forums, and I am surprised by the number of men who are now saying 'no' to sex.  Those men are also being referred to as "dysfunctional".  Or "crazy".  Or "insane".  After all, you're not a "real man" unless you're having lots and lots of sex, right?

 

So it seems that NO ONE--male or female-- over a certain age is allowed to say 'no' to sex without having some negative label attached to their choice. 

 

Really sucks. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Homer]

There are people who like to "project" their experiences and attitudes to others. Certain things do have an extraordinary importance for them and they can't get their head around you not feeling the same. Since they feel that they'd miss something if they didn't have their relationship, they assume that this must be the same for everyone. And guess what, they have A LOT of evidence to back this up since the vast majority of people is romantic.

 

I guess that everyone has one of these things they wouldn't want to live without. For some it's music, for some it's travelling, for some it's pets and some can't imagine their life without sex or romance.

 

It's not that different from asexuals who just don't get why people need sex in their lives or aros who just can't understand why people put up with that romance crap. Being the way they are is just natural for them - and for you.

 

(I fail to see the connection to emotional independence )

[ColeC]

1 hour ago, Homer said:

(I fail to see the connection to emotional independence )

I understand and agree that for those that have a desire or need for sex and romance(which is most of humanity.) these types of relationships can bring an added dimension of happiness and closeness. However I think the point we are trying to make is that a lot of people take these feelings to mean you cannot be a complete or whole person without it and because of this many are made to feel that something must be wrong with them if they don't have the same feelings. Which has been shown through modern scientific studies in neuroscience, psychology and happiness to be incorrect and in fact those people that ( asexual or not) find contentment and validation within themselves have a greater capacity to love others and have the most fulfilling relationships with their partners. The fact is becoming emotionally independent allows you to be a kinder more loving person because you do not feel beholden to other people's opinion or acceptance to feel good about yourself. Which has been shown to have an inverse effect on how much love and appreciation you can give someone else.

[NoLongerActive1234]

I don't think there needs to be any convincing as to why one prefer to have a significant other or not. Humans are very similar but we're all wired differently, live different lives and have our own unique experiences so what suit one person won't be the same for another.  It's just natural. I agree with what Homer says, some can't think outside of their own experience and that can be about anything.  

I somewhat dislike this idea about emotional independence...It seems to have become a trend. I understand that it is important certainly but the hype about it has gotten a bit exaggerated to me. People always shout it as advice and that you have to be happy being on your own before finding someone. I see the point but it isn't entirely true because some do find it important and are happier being with someone. It seems strange to think to avoid relationships until one is "the best one can be". No one is perfect and it's not so bad to rely on other people. It's naturally not good for exaggeration but it never is no matter what it is. Not relying on anyone ever isn't exactly seen as the best idea either. 

What matters is what makes you happy. If you are satisfied with not being in a relationship and enjoying life then yay and if you are in or look to have a relationship to be happy then yay to that too.

[InariYana]

15 hours ago, MistySpring said:

 

I somewhat dislike this idea about emotional independence...It seems to have become a trend. I understand that it is important certainly but the hype about it has gotten a bit exaggerated to me. People always shout it as advice and that you have to be happy being on your own before finding someone.

Just speaking from my own experience - people who are not emotionally independent quite often form unhealthy attachments with others. At some point it seems like the other becomes responsible for their happiness and the dependent person becomes increasingly needy, entitled, expectations and pressures rise if they don't get what they need in quantities/intensity they want. Suddenly the space for breathing in a relationship vanishes. There are so many relationships with unhealthy dynamics based on co-dependence, with people genuinely trapped in them, who also got used to being in those relationships so much that they can't see any other life options for themselves. 

Two emotionally independent people can still form relationships, just healthier and more genuine ones. Also, ones easier to leave without total destruction, legal wars, using children as pawns, if any of them decides to do so. 

I admire mental strength and independence, but many people don't - they want you dependent on them and they feel lost & confused if you're not. They seem to be waiting for "oh babe, I NEED you!" but needing is about some kind of function you have in their life, some use they make of you... it's not about genuine you as a whole, a wonderful human being. 

 

Now I wrote it I don't really seem like such a romantic person  although I identify as such. Gotta rethink this one as well haha 

[in.visible]

13 minutes ago, InariYana said:

They seem to be waiting for "oh babe, I NEED you!" but needing is about some kind of function you have in their life, some use they make of you... it's not about genuine you as a whole, a wonderful human being. 

Ugh, my ex did this and I simply didn't understand because I had the impression he was independent when we were friends, but as soon as we got together he wanted me to give up everything for him, so I could be just as fucked up as him. Uh, no, thanks? 

 

I never got why people were sooo desperate when they were not in a relationship like... do you think you won't die alone? Chances are really high you will and if you can't bear your own existence, then that's just... sad. I had a friend who jumped into several 'relationships' (you can't even call it that) because she feels sooo lonely by herself, but then she immediately dumped her entire mental garbage on that other person and they left. Doesn't surprise me. She was extremely clingy. (Funny thing: she said that about me, so I left her sorry ass and did my shit alone which is so much better.) 

 

Maybe it also requires a lot of trust that even though your significant other is engaged in other activities you are not interested in, they will always come back to you.

 

[J. van Deijck]

honestly, I don't understand this either.

I had that luck to find the right person to develop romantic bonds with, but what would it be if I didn't find him? nothing. life would still go on and I wouldn't feel weird or impaired for being single.

I don't get it why people who stay single are being seen as losers. not everyone who is single is one because "nobody wanted them". sometimes "they just don't want anyone" or simply don't care either way.

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[Guest Deus Ex Infinity]

I really don't know. It actually spares you from a lot of pain and that's not a bad thing at all.  Yet, you must not turn into a stone-cold creature either. A tricky process on the long term I guess but I still prefer personal/emotional independence when ever possible.

[vega57]

2 hours ago, Jade Cross said:

Its true that never relying on anyone else does have its drawbacks and limitations. But I find that compared to the alternative of relying, self reliance is much more feasible or easier to do.

For some, yes.  Actually, we tend to rely more on others than we realize. 

 

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Much too often, people tend to be inadequately unreliable; this is true for both personal as well as inpersonal life. And from experiencing this much too often early on in life, I can say with confidence that Im much better off by myself than relying on others. My work is done quicker and better compared to when I work in a team and due to their carelessness or just plain laziness, things are not done and the blame will fall all the same on you. 

 Yes, sometimes people can be unreliable.  But I think that we have to allow for unforeseen circumstances and people's humanity before determining that NO ONE is reliable. 

 

I also had similar experiences while growing up, and I actually remember myself saying out loud when I was about 12 years old, "I will never depend on anyone for anything ever again!"  I have a fierce independent streak, but I also know when it would be appropriate to ask for help.  Am I still disappointed at times?  Sure.  Do I still have to deal with lazy, incompetent people?  Of course.  You just deal with it as it comes up. 

 

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In the personal spectrum, while not in any intimate relationship,the  principle applies all the same. Doubts, insecurities, problems, etc, are all better off being resolved on your own than by relying on another simply because they arent living the issue and therefore cannot solve it for you. You can certainly seek help but never rely on it unless you want to spend the rest of your life at the mercy of others. That might make me seem cold, cruel and heartless at times; certainly people have voiced it in anger towards me, but the alternative is much worse in my opinion.

I don't think that depending on people is absolutely a 'bad thing'.  Sometimes we simply can't do the task at hand by ourselves.  We may not have the skill, knowledge, proper tools or expertise or TIME and money to learn.   While I can change my own tire, I can't balance and/or align the tires.  So I HAVE to rely on someone who has the skills, knowledge, etc. to do it FOR me.  I can't generate my own electricity to light my house.  I don't have the interest, skill, etc. to fashion my own bow and arrow and go out and hunt for my own food, so I pay for it at a grocery store. So, I am grateful that there are others who have those abilities, should I need them. 

 

But here's the rub.  There's a difference between NEEDING help and WANTING help.  My mother is 82 and has emphysema.  It's difficult for her to walk 10 feet without huffing and puffing.  I will gladly get her a glass of water.  But when someone else who is healthy asks me for a glass of water, and they're not involved with anything else other than watching t.v., and they don't "feel like" getting up to get their own glass of water, I get miffed. 

 

I've read a lot about marriage/relationships to understand that many people believe that once you're "involved" with someone, you're "supposed" to "serve" them, even if they have the ability to serve themselves.  I don't agree.  I think we should retain our independence, even while in a relationship, for as long as we can, yet cooperate with one another for the betterment of BOTH individuals. 

 

 

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[NoLongerActive1234]

12 hours ago, InariYana said:

Just speaking from my own experience - people who are not emotionally independent quite often form unhealthy attachments with others. At some point it seems like the other becomes responsible for their happiness and the dependent person becomes increasingly needy, entitled, expectations and pressures rise if they don't get what they need in quantities/intensity they want. Suddenly the space for breathing in a relationship vanishes. There are so many relationships with unhealthy dynamics based on co-dependence, with people genuinely trapped in them, who also got used to being in those relationships so much that they can't see any other life options for themselves. 

Two emotionally independent people can still form relationships, just healthier and more genuine ones. Also, ones easier to leave without total destruction, legal wars, using children as pawns, if any of them decides to do so. 

I admire mental strength and independence, but many people don't - they want you dependent on them and they feel lost & confused if you're not. They seem to be waiting for "oh babe, I NEED you!" but needing is about some kind of function you have in their life, some use they make of you... it's not about genuine you as a whole, a wonderful human being. 

 

Now I wrote it I don't really seem like such a romantic person  although I identify as such. Gotta rethink this one as well haha 

I think all of that is important as well and fully agree, something that is based on a lie or of need for the other and not genuine love and appreciation is definitely not a good idea. I just think that some of what I hear goes into the exaggerated end of things. I dislike it just as much as the preaching about that you can't live a fulfilling and healthy life being single. 
I'll expand on my thoughts more but just wanted to write first that you seem romantic to me. I mean everyone has different ideas as to what is romantic to them too. For example I'm not too keen on going to a restaurant for some fancy dates but just hanging out with my boyfriend fishing in an online game together is more romantic to me. That probably isn't something that is seen as a standard romantic person lol. I think it is precious that you focus on something you find important to build a solid relationship on and sticking with it. It's just a matter of finding someone who admires it just as much as you do.  

I think that nothing is black and white and to never take a chance on a relationship because one isn't entirely emotionally independent or some perfect notion of oneself is just silly. Having other people to be close with is also a way to grow and learn about oneself and others. If you go for it you take that risk of it not working out either. And while co-dependency is bad, being dependent on other people to some degree is not. It's would be very difficult to have a life not ever relying on anyone ever....How about when you are sick... you have to go to the doctor (or well you don't have to but you probably want to), you might want to ask for directions if your GPS decides to have a hissy fit and keeps telling you to go leeft leeft leeft.
Needing help from others can be excessive but it can also be in the opposite direction where people go so far to handle things on their own until they crash. I would not call that healthy at all. That's why exaggeration to any direction of the scale is bad but apart from that whichever way it would land closer to has to do with what suits the individual. 

[Was here]

People really need to back off instead of telling you you need to be/do something just because that's what they want and what they think is right. I hate how people assume stuff after you assert yourself too. At least, that's happened to me. It wasn't about gender or sexuality, I just hat that in general.

[vega57]

5 hours ago, MistySpring said:

I think all of that is important as well and fully agree, something that is based on a lie or of need for the other and not genuine love and appreciation is definitely not a good idea. I just think that some of what I hear goes into the exaggerated end of things. I dislike it just as much as the preaching about that you can't live a fulfilling and healthy life being single. 

Yet many of the very same people who DO enter a relationship based on their own list of "needs" and "expectations" will claim that we're "supposed" to depend on our partner.  After all, that's what a relationship is. 

 

Then they wonder why they're so unhappy in these relationships.  It never occurs to them that maybe the problem(s) is with their beliefs about how relationships "should" or "shouldn't" be, and not necessarily anything wrong with the relationship itself. 

 

A relationship can be 'perfect' for someone in every single way...except one.  Yet, so many are willing to play the "If you love me you'll..." card, and when they don't get that ONE 'expectation' met, they're ready to chuck the entire relationship, only to find a new relationship that supplies them with that one 'need' they were missing in the first one. 

 

If someone only 'loves' me because of what they think I can give them, I'd wonder if they really love *ME* at all...

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[vega57]

51 minutes ago, Jade Cross said:

If someone claims to love you because of what you can give them, then then they dont love you at all; they love your usefulness to them. And all the while this particular phrase is what is used to try and justify said mentality, which drives me insane as to how losely people use it and then demand that you get into a relationship all the same.

So, would you say that their emotional dependence isn't so much on the PERSON who they claim to love, but on the 'need' that they have, since they'll seek out fulfillment of that 'need' from someone else if they don't get it from *you*?  ("If you don't give me sex, I'll find it elsewhere...")

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[vega57]

40 minutes ago, Jade Cross said:

Theres a saying that I believe applies perfectly to what I tend to see is the dynamics of relationships. It goes: "People are only as loyal to you as their interests, once their interests change, so does their loyalty"

Cool.  Never heard that saying before.  A lot of truth to it.  Unfortunately. 

 

Quote

Regarding the question, yea, that pretty much is how it goes. Its also something as a whole that is adviced upon relationships. Much too often is the phrase "if he/she isnt fulfilling your needs, go find someone else who does" used when discrepancies in dynamic arise. So even in a percieved well intended advice we are, at the very least, crudly logical basing the idea that relationships are less about how we feel and more on what we can get out of the other person.

I have noticed that in some of the marriage/relationship forums I've been on, that if one person isn't 'getting their needs met' by their partner, there are a whole bunch of posters willing to give "how to" advice.  It all seems so....so....so "strategic" and/or manipulative.  Not based on "love".  Many of the thread-starters begin with the sentence, "How Can I GET My Husband/Wife/Partner to..."  usually followed by angry posters accusing the 'partner' of being "selfish" for "withholding" something and not "loving" them.  There's an undertone of what they can get from a partner; not what they can GIVE. 

 

Quote

If you consider the dynamics of relationships today to the original objective of marriages, the dynamics have remained one and the same, marry/get together with someone for status and goods/services. "Love" (or recurring infatuation as I would see it) is none existent. Its just a mix of what we can get and how fast can we get it from.

 Yeah, I'm seeing that, too.  Seems that a lot of people pay lip service to love these days, having no idea what it truly is. 

 

One reason why I've written off intimate relationships is because I already know what their 'bottom line' is:  Eventually, they're going to want sex.  They "give" in order to "get", often with the idea that what they want to "give" has as much 'value' as what they want to "get". 

 

I'm opting out of that dance. 

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[NoLongerActive1234]

 

On 6/24/2017 at 5:23 AM, vega57 said:

Yet many of the very same people who DO enter a relationship based on their own list of "needs" and "expectations" will claim that we're "supposed" to depend on our partner.  After all, that's what a relationship is. 

 

Then they wonder why they're so unhappy in these relationships.  It never occurs to them that maybe the problem(s) is with their beliefs about how relationships "should" or "shouldn't" be, and not necessarily anything wrong with the relationship itself. 

 

A relationship can be 'perfect' for someone in every single way...except one.  Yet, so many are willing to play the "If you love me you'll..." card, and when they don't get that ONE 'expectation' met, they're ready to chuck the entire relationship, only to find a new relationship that supplies them with that one 'need' they were missing in the first one. 

 

If someone only 'loves' me because of what they think I can give them, I'd wonder if they really love *ME* at all...

Yeah this sucks and there are selfish people like this who seem to just jump from one person to another based on what they need at the time seemingly without much difficulty. That has a lot to do with personality, preferences and emotional intelligence I'd say. Sometimes it is simply that the two people involved see the relationship differently though and their expectations don't match. To be fair it's not strange to have basic needs that one wants to have met to feel happy in a relationship but yeah if someone just treats it like picking the best item in a store throwing away the rest that is awful. Manipulating someone in a relationship as well like you mentioned in the other post by being nice or so to try to get the other to give sex for example or saying it is fine then changing ones mind is just horrible. Sometimes it could be innocent and the person imagining that they would be okay without sex in the relationship but then understanding that's not the case. However if it is saying that they are fine but then thinking they can 'prompt' you further down the line....no way. It is tricky to find people who genuinely care for sure, no matter in what sort of relationship, but they are out there. 

[Guest]

On 2017-6-21 at 2:02 PM, Jade Cross said:

Since this issue is being pushed again but Im highly unlikely to get a logical answer from my parents or the people around me in general, I thought I'd ask here.

 

Now for the longest time, I have always had the idea and felt that for me, there is no neccesity of a partner in life, and certainly all the crap I see people go through on a daily basis with regards to relationships only makes me ever more certain that I am indeed correct. Yet when voicing this (usually as the result of being pestered by others about it), the immediate and unchangeable reaction I get from people is always along the lines of: "But you need someone in your life/everyone needs somebody/you're going to be miserable all your life if you dont find someone/etc." (let's not even get into the no kid issue). People have even gone as far as saying that my attitude is pathological because nobody in their right mind would just choose to never have a partner and that its only psychos or narcissists who live their life alone. I may be proud and at times percieved as cold and uncarring but Im still far from being the text book, talking into a mirror for hours on end definition of a narcissists.

 

My question is simply why? Beyond all the so called evolutionary attitude of survival through numbers and the societal comformity version of "normalcy", why is it that people so fevereshly continue pressing this issue? 

 

(I didn't bother reading the whole thread so this is probably mostly repetition, but anyways...)

 

I think there's a few things going on here. Firstly, do you actually say that bit about the crap you see other people going through in relationships? Because that would probably make many people feel judged and offended and make them respond in a more harsh and judgemental way in return.

 

Otherwise, many people rely on their relationships for their emotional wellbeing, they cannot imagine being truly happy and mentally healthy in the long term outside of a relationship, and so they struggle to understand how others could be. The media reinforces this view and results in people thinking along the lines of "this is just how it is for everyone". Any evidence that this is wrong causes cognitive dissonance and threatens a fundamental part of their subconscious world view. Thus the firm belief that the person is either lying when they claim to be happy, or that they are in denial about their own feelings. They also may feel personally judged or threatened by someone not placing importance in something which is of vital importance to them personally (I've seen the same response in aro people, becoming offended when someone else talks about how wonderful and important their relationship is to them, even when there is no suggestion that they are implying anything beyond their own personal experience). This can all result in them attempting to persuade the other person of their mistake possibly as an expression of concern and/or a reciprocal attack against their contradictory beliefs.

 

That said, I have never actually encountered this attitude personally. I'm completely open about not wanting a relationship and everyone has been completely accepting of that (aside from my grandparents, but they're super old, can't be helped).

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[Busrider]

On ‎21‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 3:02 PM, Jade Cross said:

attitude is pathological

is the keyword. 

While people age their openness towards alternative concepts in general doesn't really get enhanced. 

They need all that overhead they are dumping on you to cope with their lives; i.e.: Somebody believing(!) in a "need" for a partner is willing to cut their partner enough slack to not bite their head of, to clench teeth and jump through hoops as demanded. - Without that belief they'd look into their mirror and consider themselves crazy. 

 

The final stage of arguing with believers is called "Jihad" and tends to get messy. Try to understand others POVs but avoid friction & discussions. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[NoLongerActive1234]

It seems like a downward spiral of thinking that you are doing Jade Cross. Because of your poor experiences with people that seem to have unhealthy relationships and them persisting that you are misguided about not wanting to be with anyone you are making huge claims about love and relationship as a whole. Do you really think that everyone in relationships are just insane? That's a lot of the population. I'd say it is instead that you are looking from an outside view and simply cannot comprehend or see any upsides which others obviously do and hence wanting to be in relationships. Then you are doing the exact same thing as the people who can't get how you can see any benefits to being single. I get it that you must be very frustrated, you seem to have run into a lot of rotten eggs so to speak but why get down to their level? Unless this is all just venting but yeah not showing any understanding or believing that there must be valid reasons for people to be in relationship even if you can't relate on a personal level you are just doing yourself a disservice. 

[Lord Jade Cross]

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[NoLongerActive1234]

Of course there are many unhealthy relationships out there, there is no denying that but there are also a ton of successful ones. It seems like you're missing out on a lot of different factors to consider when you are making conclusions about this. When it isn't something you have any desire for or had any experience with it is bound to be more tricky for you to relate to as well.
What is seen is more often than not the bad parts, when people bring up about relationships to others it is usually to get aid and to vent. That doesn't mean that there aren't any people who are content in their relationships...it just means that they don't feel as much of a need to talk about it. 
Not all relationship go into the extreme end of things of chaos but then again nothing is perfect. That doesn't equate bad, it is a challenge people are willing to take and it is an overall positive in meshing together with a partner. Like I mentioned you grow as a person spending your time so closely with a significant other. Thinking of being constantly happy in a relationship is silly just as it is to think to be constantly happy being single. That will go up and down depending on life and doesn't have to mean that ones current situation is unhealthy or going to the extreme.  It can, but it doesn't have to be. The way you describe it is as if it is like an ultimatum of sorts...hey see you are complaining about your relationship...how can you be happy? It is perfectly normal to have ups and downs in a relationship. It is also perfectly normal to have ups and downs as a single person.
If we're talking media...well this is never exactly a reflection of reality.  
I know people who have been together 30+ years, seemingly well worth time spent and been told it is a great enrichment of their lives being together. I would not think that they're deluded about their own happiness and decisions in life. 
 

[Lord Jade Cross]

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