Just a straight guy adopting this community's vocabulary to understand his own lifestyle

[cardboard]

Hopefully I'm posting this in the right place. The forum subject does, after all, declare this as "A place to discuss romanticism, aromanticism, the area in between, and the many kinds of attractions."

 

Full disclosure: I'm a straight male, heterosexual and very romantic, 36 years old, divorced from one wife (yes, it was a "young and dumb" thing) and nowadays married to another, a kid with each. I'm extremely happy with my wife and relationship. I have many friends who are gay, lesbian, polyamorous, demisexual, and various types of uncategorisable, so if anything, I'm at least an open-minded ally.

However, this is a story about me, trying to make sense of an odd friendship I have. I know it's strange to post this here - in this community - but as I struggle to make sense of my relationships with others, I keep finding myself back here at AVEN, reading articles that make me nod sagely and wonder where you guys get your wisdom from. I guess that by taking romance and sexuality out of the equation, you can focus more intensely on understanding and defining the other aspects in a friendship.

Hmm, maybe it's easier if I just tell the story. So in among my perfectly mainstream heterosexual lifestyle, I've got this female friend, let's call her T, and she's 30. We've been friends for 7 or 8 years, and are quite close. She's traditionally a bit standoffish with strangers, or in public. She's a self-described commitmentphobe, in a 4-year relationship with a guy, and feeling pressure for marriage and kids and whatnot, which scares her a bit (not helped that she recently found out she has some medical concerns, so she probably has some turmoil of her own going on).

So anyway. T and me, as well as being close friends and meeting up in town, we love the outdoors. Adore it. We go hiking or canoeing together, and will camp out in a lean-to or a tent for several days. We both enjoy avoiding other strangers, but love being together. In the evenings we'll cozy up by the campfire, sometimes with our arms around each other. We might stand at the lake's edge and watch the sunset, cuddling together. We'll lie together at night, platonically spooning in our sleeping bags (although as much for warmth as for companionship), and sometimes I'll have my arm around her. You get the idea.

Two things to highlight here. First, I talked to one of T's closest friends a few years ago when this started (the friend is polyamorous and was my eye-opener to THAT whole world), and she was genuinely shocked that T was showing affection like that; they've been close friends since childhood and apparently this was particularly out of character, even years ago before it reached the level it's at now, and back then T didn't even know me so well. The bond between us formed very fast and very firm, which for T is apparently unusual.

The second point of note is that, at no point in this, has there been any romantic or sexual action. No kissing, no groping, no sex, and no indication that things would start heading in that direction. She loves her guy and I love my wife, and I'm pretty sure that nothing of the sort will happen between me and T even if both of our personal situations would allow for it.

So, yeah. Long story short, this isn't a situation that any of my other friends would condone or even understand, and everything I've been reading elsewhere online usually concludes: "you're going to end up having an emotional affair, it's unfair to your partners, you need to stop being friends, fast!" or something similar. That isn't the case, I'm pretty sure. I recently found entries about queerplatonic relationships (I've decided to go with this definition), and I've found words like "cuddle-buddy" and "zucchini" which seem to describe the situation. It's weird that the only place I could find any definition or explanation that comes even remotely close to fitting, would come from communities like this, hence this post.

 

I guess I'm not really asking a question; it's just great that this community as a whole has given me a vocabulary and a framework for analysing this situation (and for being able to frame it in ways that might make it comprehensible to the mainstream society who would otherwise judge me pretty harshly - you guys seem more open about this sort of thing, which is great), but since I'm here, I'm open to whatever useful insights you might have to offer!

[The Dryad]

Hey! It's cool to have you here! I honestly don't know how many ace people we actually have on here either...but I do know there are alot of different people on here! So welcome!

[Autumn Season]

Welcome to AVEN and have some cake!

 

Spoiler

 

Situations like these are difficult to understand. It's furthermore complicated because one never knows what the other is feeling.

I'm NOT saying there is any romance involved. But IF T liked you in that way, you wouldn't necessarily know. Feelings as well as their expression can be different depending on the person and still be called the same thing. For instance romantic feelings in one person could voice themselves through butterflies and an emotional high. In another person it could be a calm feeling of affection. In both cases they would say they are in love. In other words it's messy to make sense of emotions. So I'm not even going to pretend I know what is going on between  T and you. (Though I gotta remark that you two are very cute.)

 

I'll just try to think of similar situations in my life and maybe you can relate?

In my case, romantic attraction mostly consists of a strong platonic attraction/ a squish (I love to talk to them, want to get to know them better) and sensual/ tactile attraction (I feel the urge to be physically close, touch them)**.

Those two attractions can happen on their own. If I'm "just" squishing, I'll try to become friends. If I "just" want to touch, I... don't. Because that would be rude.

I also get to hug and go arm-in-arm with friends because in my culture that's normal between girls and to some extent between women and men. It's not like I'm attracted to them, but I still like to be physically affectionate (with people I trust). It calms me down and gives a feeling of togetherness.

Towards the friends I hug, I experience neither a strong platonic nor a sensual attraction. It's a calm platonic love paired with trust. However would I actually cuddle with them? Hmm, dunno. I don't think I would. Then again, one of the things which are holding me back is that I don't want to cause any misunderstandings.

 

*waits for somebody to come in and tell me I used the wrong definition for this or that term*

 

**It's different from sexual attraction, where one wants to touch and as a result experience arousal.

[gaogao]

Hello and welcome to AVEN!    It's great that you have found a place and the language to talk about this relationship with us!

 

While I think you have something really nice with T, I would actually still tell you to be cautious about this relationship. Not because I think anything will happen - I completely understand and believe that neither you nor T (to your knowledge) want to start anything romantic or sexual, but I kind of know from experience that it's important to be aware of the fact that many people can't comprehend a QPR or platonic affection outside of family - especially between a man and a woman. (It's unfair, but if you were both women, would anyone truly question it? ) 

 

I want to believe your respective partners trust you, but friends and outsiders can sometimes make assumptions, cast doubts or start drama - and as others have said, you can't know 100% what T is thinking without talking to her about it - but it's definitely up to you to gauge peoples' characters in that respect. Good luck, though! 

[cardboard]

28 minutes ago, gaogao said:

While I think you have something really nice with T, I would actually still tell you to be cautious about this relationship. [...] friends and outsiders can sometimes make assumptions, cast doubts or start drama

Yeah, I've read a few stories here and elsewhere about the complications of a "non-standard" friendship in terms of how those outside of it might misunderstand things. It's the same problem that I don't truly know what T is thinking - others can't ever truly know what I'm thinking. When I wrote my original post here, I wondered how my wife might react if I were to show it to her, and in all honestly, I can't be sure. I get a sneaking suspicion that she would be jealous, and I know I'm walking a fine line. I guess I need to think about it some more. I'm mostly being selfish, because I enjoy the sensations of closeness and trust, and if I'm being completely honest, I originally found AVEN after I started to wonder if my wife was somewhere on the (slightly) aromantic spectrum, although that's a different and much longer discussion. Short version, I think part of it is that I'm getting some emotional closeness or something from T that I'm not getting from the wife, even though things are great between us otherwise. I always was the more romantic and emotionally demanding one of us, which I think is a scenario that a lot here (or their partners!) can relate to, another reason I decided to post.

 

37 minutes ago, Autumn Season said:

In my case, romantic attraction mostly consists of a strong platonic attraction/ a squish (I love to talk to them, want to get to know them better) and sensual/ tactile attraction (I feel the urge to be physically close, touch them)**.

 

**It's different from sexual attraction, where one wants to touch and as a result experience arousal.

 

28 minutes ago, gaogao said:

as others have said, you can't know 100% what T is thinking without talking to her about it

Both these are valid concerns. In general we have always been open and honest with each other, so I don't see any reason for her to hide it. But people are messy, complicated animals. I've intentionally avoided raising the topic with her, because I didn't want to unbalance our friendship, but in the long term it's possibly something I need to consider, especially if it looks dangerously close to becoming an actual romantic interest.

[Forest Spirit]

Just wanted to stop by and tell you that your relationship with T sounds really lovely! Please don't let other people make you feel odd about it or that you should end it! Since I currently have no idea of what the difference between romantic and platonic attraction/relationships is (for me personally) I can't really say much about that, but it seems to me that you two have a great bond with each other and I think that's something very prescious

[cardboard]

21 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Just wanted to stop by and tell you that your relationship with T sounds really lovely! Please don't let other people make you feel odd about it or that you should end it!

I hope it's as simple as that, but thanks

 

21 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Since I currently have no idea of what the difference between romantic and platonic attraction/relationships is (for me personally) I can't really say much about that

I'm actually wondering a bit about this myself. I can sort of "switch off" the romantic feelings to some degree, I know that T is plenty attractive and under other circumstances I'm sure I'd be super aroused (I've certainly had that thought from time to time), but when we're together in reality it's just a warm fuzzy bubble of us-ness and I don't really think of (or care about) the details. We're just happy to be in each other's company, we have these great conversations that just wander all over the place, and time doesn't always obey the laws of physics. It's... I dunno, somehow different than all of my romantic relationships that I've had, including with my wife. I can tell it's a different type of relationship. I'm just not really sure what. And here we are back to the problem of labels and comprehension frameworks! I have a much richer vocabulary, learned from you guys, although sadly I can't use it outside of these forums. I think zucchini is hilarious

[Forest Spirit]

If I have learned one thing from AVEN it's that relationships can have every form possible, it just makes trying to describe them in one or two words really complicated  I'm currently trying to figure out one of my relationships too and well, big emphasis on trying... So I can kind of guess how you feel like but don't really have any good advice I think. Just, sometimes I think maybe it doesn't matter what a relationship exactly is (romantic/platonic/queerplatonic/...) but rather that you love that person, since love is simply a feeling and in my opinion doesn't have an intrinsic label (I hope you understand what I mean, I'm not that good at explaining). But that's just me philosophizing here! And yes zucchini is definitely one of the best words ever created! So funny

[junobass]

If your wife doesn't know, it's cheating, period. It doesn't matter what kind of relationships you have with however many people. Your first responsibility is to your wife, who has every right to know.

[Ennis]

Hi cardboard, welcome!

I agree with @junobass - the key part of polyamory (or any system with several relationships, be they platonic or romantic) is honesty. She has a right to know what is going on between T and you. She'll also need your promise that nothing else is going to happen and that she's your priority.

Maybe you could carefully introduce her to the topic of polyamory first? Try and find a documentary that isn't about people sleeping around all the time but focuses on the emotional aspect, too.

Good luck!

 

(Oh, and canoeing, hiking, campfire and cuddling sound like paradise to me. Can I join you? )

[cardboard]

1 hour ago, Charlie Q. said:

She has a right to know what is going on between T and you. She'll also need your promise that nothing else is going to happen and that she's your priority.

I'm not 100% sure what's going on between T and myself, either... that's a large part of what prompted me to post here in the first place. I guess I just kept (keep!) telling myself that we're just friends and that it's harmless platonic closeness. This may very well be true, and at least consciously, I'm not looking for excuses to justify my behaviour. I don't think there's more to it than that, but hey, who am I to judge? I certainly have no plans of anything further and I'm fairly certain that she feels the same, but yeah, I guess it's not just about the two of us.

 

1 hour ago, Charlie Q. said:

Maybe you could carefully introduce her to the topic of polyamory first?

Actually my wife is already familiar. As mentioned, we have polyamorous friends, and we've discussed it as a group a few times, although in a more academic sort of manner. I don't think she ever saw it applying to her, however, and I certainly didn't consider it applying to me directly, either.

 

But I've discovered in recent years - both through my own experiences, and through discussion with others - that sometimes what we think is the situation actually isn't the case, and like with the QPR/zucchini stuff, sometimes you can't conceptualise a thing not because it isn't happening, but because you simply lack the vocabulary to frame it. (For the same reason I think my wife is somewhere on the aromantic spectrum, which would certainly explain a whole bunch of stuff, but I'm scared to bring it up with her.)

 

1 hour ago, Charlie Q. said:

(Oh, and canoeing, hiking, campfire and cuddling sound like paradise to me. Can I join you? )

 

They are paradise. And if you were in my part of the world, I'd say certainly, I'm always looking for people to share my love of the outdoors with!

[Ennis]

On 8.6.2017 at 10:43 AM, cardboard said:

They are paradise. And if you were in my part of the world, I'd say certainly, I'm always looking for people to share my love of the outdoors with!

I live in Europe, so....

[cardboard]

On 6/9/2017 at 1:01 PM, Charlie Q. said:

I live in Europe, so....

I'm probably a bit further north than you typically travel!

 

 

[Ennis]

On 8.6.2017 at 10:43 AM, cardboard said:

I'm not 100% sure what's going on between T and myself, either... that's a large part of what prompted me to post here in the first place. I guess I just kept (keep!) telling myself that we're just friends and that it's harmless platonic closeness. This may very well be true, and at least consciously, I'm not looking for excuses to justify my behaviour. I don't think there's more to it than that, but hey, who am I to judge? I certainly have no plans of anything further and I'm fairly certain that she feels the same, but yeah, I guess it's not just about the two of us.

 

You do know though what is actually happening (the cuddling and stuff). That's what your wife should know about.

The rest - what kind of emotional relationship you have with T - is not only a matter of feeling, but also a decision you can make.

I am currently in a primary relationship and I had a crush on someone else during the past few weeks, yet I decided not to react to it. I'm just waiting for the feeling to go away because I know that my current partner and I are a better match.

Putting up boundaries and defining relationships is important. Listen to David Jay talking about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLI09O8bMkU Do you know David Jay? He's the founder of this wonderful website and a pioneer of asexual awareness and education.

 

 

[cardboard]

I don't have any problem on being called out on crappy excuses, so long as that's what they are. I suppose I was coming at this whole thing from the point of view that it's not a relationship (in the romantic sense); rather, it's just a friendship with a stronger bond than usual. But you're probably right, it can't be "just" anything when there's somebody else involved who is out of the loop and could get hurt. I suppose it's natural to play down the meaning or impact of things in your own head, so that you can have your cake and eat it [edit: pun not intended, but surprisingly appropriate] - I guess I've got some thinking to do on where to go next. I think just blurting something like this too my wife could do more harm than good if I haven't properly considered how to phrase things.

[cardboard]

[snip]

[Loreta95]

I think you love this person, and physical contact is a way of showing affection. I cuddle with my gay guy friends, sometimes. My friend's boyfriends will often put their arm around me. I hug all sorts of people, with whom I have different relationships. What's more is that I am quite nervous about physical touch, but I do genuinely enjoy the sensation, and the affection behind these touches. Sometimes my older brother and I will wrestle, get tired, and just lay there, talking about life, typically with his head on my lap. It is a moment where we are just glad for the others existence, that they have been there, and will continue to be with us. A safe place, in our confusing journeys in life. Temple Grandin, is a professor with Autism. She actually built a machine to hug her, because sometimes you need the sensation of being held, even if you find people overbearing. Humans love physical contact, it's comforting, makes us feel loved, safe, and supposedly increases our ability to heal physical wounds as well as emotional ones. Just look at your friendship with T, you both dislike strangers, and you have a special friendship, where you can enjoy the sensation of a good cuddle, without the fears of strangers, commitment, responsibilities, your jobs, or potential mistakes. You just want someone to hold for a bit, it might not be romantic at all, just a friendship. Think of a mother holding her child, rubbing their back, stroking their hair. Physical touch is not always a romantic display of a affection, just platonic human affection.

[cardboard]

1 hour ago, Loreta95 said:

Humans love physical contact, it's comforting, makes us feel loved, safe, and supposedly increases our ability to heal physical wounds as well as emotional ones. Just look at your friendship with T, you both dislike strangers, and you have a special friendship, where you can enjoy the sensation of a good cuddle, without the fears of strangers, commitment, responsibilities, your jobs, or potential mistakes. You just want someone to hold for a bit, it might not be romantic at all, just a friendship.

Society has such strange taboos and strict rules on what is allowed and what isn't. It even varies from culture to culture - think of the French with their kissing on the cheeks. Where I live, any sort of physical contact beyond a brief hug is immediately suspicious, and holding hands means you're practically married (which is ironic, since my wife hates public displays of affection and isn't all that keen on private ones either).

 

I guess that's why this whole thing is even a question in the first place; the general rule is that platonic == non-physical, and so any relationship with a physical component is automatically suspicious. It makes my friendship with T into some sort of nefarious covert subterfuge, which it really isn't - I hope I don't just sound like I'm trying to justify any of my actions, but I really feel like it's a case of taking something innocent and tarnishing it with morals and values that misunderstand the situation. I start to feel bad about it even though there's no malicious intent, and that affects everything else.

[NoLongerActive1234]

It can be a close friendship, I don't see why cuddling would have to be romantic however to be honest with you from how you are describing all this it raises question marks. Is cuddling something you or your wife normally do with friends? Even if it isn't and it is a strictly platonic thing wouldn't it be something to talk about with your partner if it is out of your norm as a couple? Would you feel comfortable with your wife cuddling a male friend as a new thing...and not telling you? The fact that there is a lack of communication between you sounds worrying? It doesn't seem good that you feel that you can't tell your wife. 

That you also are unsure of how you feel about T could of course be because you are automatically thinking it would have to be romantic just because you'd not experienced such a close friendship before.

I think you should not ponder on what you have with T and just decide that it is platonic. It would maybe be a good idea to check in with T too to make sure she is enjoying it as a friendship as well and nothing romantic. Still adding to it that you are not having your emotional and romantic needs met from your wife along with the lack of communication seems like it is a slippery slope. It does sound like you and your wife need to talk.

[cardboard]

On 6/19/2017 at 11:51 AM, MistySpring said:

Is cuddling something you or your wife normally do with friends?

A couple of them, and my wife knows this so it's not totally out of the norm; however, not with all of them.

 

On 6/19/2017 at 11:51 AM, MistySpring said:

Would you feel comfortable with your wife cuddling a male friend as a new thing...and not telling you?

On the first part, probably, yes, although it's hard to imagine as she's significantly less tactile than I am. On the second part, I get where you're coming from. It's not the action, it's the secrecy.

 

On 6/19/2017 at 11:51 AM, MistySpring said:

That you also are unsure of how you feel about T could of course be because you are automatically thinking it would have to be romantic just because you'd not experienced such a close friendship before.

Hmm, that's not quite what I said earlier. I'm not thinking it's romantic, and in an earlier post I said that although I was pretty certain it was only platonic, there was no way I could know 100% for sure - but that holds true whether or not I would discuss it with T, because if she's in any way being untruthful, I again would have no way to know. It's all about taking people's word that they're being honest about things.

 

On 6/19/2017 at 11:51 AM, MistySpring said:

Still adding to it that you are not having your emotional and romantic needs met from your wife along with the lack of communication seems like it is a slippery slope.

Hmm, I'd say that 90% of my emotional and romantic needs are met by the wife, but she has always been less romantic and less tactile than me. She knows I'm, for lack of a better word, clingy in these things but she doesn't seem to mind if I'm hugging my other platonic friends or generally being physically tactile around them. So it's maybe not as drastic as you make it sound, although I'll admit that it can be hard to correctly interpret these things based on what I have written here. When I began this discussion thread I was really only coming at it from the angle of understanding different degrees of platonic relationship, and at that point I had no intention of broadening the discussion, so it's possible I gave a misleading initial impression.

 

But anyway, as I said earlier, you guys seem like a bright and insightful community, and you've certainly given me plenty to think about!

 

[SamwiseLovesLife]

On 07/06/2017 at 10:52 AM, cardboard said:

eah, I've read a few stories here and elsewhere about the complications of a "non-standard" friendship in terms of how those outside of it might misunderstand things. It's the same problem that I don't truly know what T is thinking - others can't ever truly know what I'm thinking.

Not adding anything useful here but I think it's really awesome of you to come on Aven and actually do some reading to better understand the person. What a decent straight person you are

[cardboard]

59 minutes ago, SamwiseLovesLife said:

it's really awesome of you to come on Aven and actually do some reading to better understand the person.

I've always been fascinated by the variety of human relationships: friendships, romances, loves, brotherly bonds, best friends, soulmates, the lot. I like labels, not because they're exhaustive in describing the thing being labeled (they're not!), but because they give us a common vocabulary with which to communicate with others and explore the ideas further, and to put words to concepts previously unexpressable.

 

Even before I had heard of Aven (or asexuality, for that matter), I was struggling to fully grasp these concepts. Then I found you guys, and you gave me a whole new set of vocabulary with which to classify and explore things. The further I go, the more I realise that the old labels are flawed (even the ones I apply to myself). It's as much a journey of self-discovery as it is an exercise in classifying others, and it's one I find endlessly fascinating

[SamwiseLovesLife]

36 minutes ago, cardboard said:

I've always been fascinated by the variety of human relationships: friendships, romances, loves, brotherly bonds, best friends, soulmates, the lot. I like labels, not because they're exhaustive in describing the thing being labeled (they're not!), but because they give us a common vocabulary with which to communicate with others and explore the ideas further, and to put words to concepts previously unexpressable.

 

Even before I had heard of Aven (or asexuality, for that matter), I was struggling to fully grasp these concepts. Then I found you guys, and you gave me a whole new set of vocabulary with which to classify and explore things. The further I go, the more I realise that the old labels are flawed (even the ones I apply to myself). It's as much a journey of self-discovery as it is an exercise in classifying others, and it's one I find endlessly fascinating

Good on you dude

[NoLongerActive1234]

@cardboard I  don't know you or your situation as you do, I can only interpret from what little I know so it makes sense that I have misunderstood. Apologies if I overstepped!! It is great to read that you've been able to find a whole new perspective about relationships and labels coming here. I can definitely relate to that, this place really is amazing because we're discussing and figuring all this stuff out, putting words to things in more depth. It is incredibly eye opening isn't it and it can't really be found in the same way elsewhere. There is so much to learn, have fun exploring! 

[cardboard]

39 minutes ago, MistySpring said:

@cardboard I  don't know you or your situation as you do, I can only interpret from what little I know so it makes sense that I have misunderstood. Apologies if I overstepped!!

Not at all, and I'm happy you commented. If nothing else, it certainly goes to demonstrate how anything can look from the outside - even more highlighting the importance of openness and communication. Hopefully my own experiences might also be of use to somebody else (ace or otherwise) in any similar situation.

[cardboard]

Just a brief update: went hiking again with T for a long weekend, and as part of one long evening around the campfire (and each other) we got to discussing what we were to each other. I showed her the definition of QPR that I quoted in my original post; we both agreed that we prefer quasi- rather than queer- because it's clearer and less sidetracked by other meanings or interpretations, but besides that, we agreed that it seems to fit the case at hand and that we both think that's where we are right now.

 

As to those of you saying "talk to your wife", I also did that. Not directly, and not about T specifically, because I'm still being a bit of a coward there (and not sure of exactly what it is, which makes me loathe to declare it as something specific to another party)... but I raised the issue with my wife of her being at least grey-romantic (which she more or less agreed with), and we had a long and introspective conversation about our expectations from each other, and how her less-romantic approach was at odds with my very-romantic approach, and that our ideas of "compromise" weren't always identical.

 

I still don't know if or when I'll bring up the key fact that I feel I'm getting my romantic (emotional?) needs met, at least in part, in a QPR. But I'd like to move forward with this and frankly, I'm pretty scared. I've contacted the polyamorous mutual friend as mentioned in the original post and will discuss some of this with her - she at least has a unique perspective to offer, relative to anyone else I know. I'll fill in more details as and when they become real things.