FtN and low dose T?

[Velma]

I just found out that at my age (45), many women are prescribed low dose T to alleviate many of the negative effects of peri menopause. They also prescribe estrogen so women can retain their feminine appearance. I never thought of having hormone therapy before, but I'm tempted now. I'm not sure how I'll convince a doctor that I don't want the estrogen. If I need therapy or something, I'd do it. I have documented history of living genderless and I've always been comfortable with it. 

 

Im curious about others who have used low dose T to go neutral. How'd it go, or how's it going? I've never cared about looks, but acne concerns me a bit. So I'd like some info. Also, my voice has always been very low for a female. I sing tenor in choir. I fear even on a low dose, I could go basso profundo or something. How much lower is your voice now?

 

very interested in hearing about your experiences!

[AVEN #1 fan]

If so you, it's very unlikely to have bad acne if you're middle aged.

Can't speak for the voice, but if your cells are young they have better Chance to make your voice box grow.... if your voice already sounds masculine I don't rly think it can go much lower or get an prominent Adams apple. You'll very likely  get hairer,

 

 

You should check micah's neutrois nonsense blog, they talk about their transition from female to neuter.

 

 

if voice is rly a concern for you, you can look at FTMs who detransitioned or are genderfluid on YouTube. You can also look up for voice therapy for MTFs or look for MTFs voice changes.

 

[AVEN #1 fan]

31 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

If so you, it's very unlikely to have bad acne if you're middle aged.

Can't speak for the voice, but if your cells are young they have better Chance to make your voice box grow.... if your voice already sounds masculine I don't rly think it can go much lower or get an prominent Adams apple. You'll very likely  get hairer,

 

 

You should check micah's neutrois nonsense blog, they talk about their transition from female to neuter.

 

 

if voice is rly a concern for you, you can look at FTMs who detransitioned or are genderfluid on YouTube. You can also look up for voice therapy for MTFs or look for MTFs voice changes.

 

Micah's videos:

 

 

Voice feminization for MtFs before and after:

 

 

This is kinda TW. detransition:

 

 

[Velma]

Thanks for all the info. The voice doesn't bother me TOO much, I just laughed thinking about what my voice would sound like if it were even lower. I was thinking of the video of the demonic sounding bass in the gospel quartet. So the voice thing was kind of a joke, just for me. The only reason I sound feminine is because I have a breathiness most men don't have. It's not gravely. It sounds like a teenage boy whose voice is starting to change, but not quite fully there. I get called sir on the phone sometimes.

 

EDIT: I just listened to the mtf woman, my voice is in the range of her lower voice which I assume is pre estrogen? It's a different tone, but pitch is the same. I also have the feminine "soft" manner of speaking, as she does. The tone is nowhere near as feminine sounding, but I do have have a slight feminine softness in my voice.

 

As as an aside, I REALLY notice the difference in vocal mannerisms in all trans people I meet. Even if they never take hormones, their voices tend to have a very distinct "tell" to me. I notice it in kids as young as 7 or 8. I don't think it's an affectation. I think on a subconscious level, they naturally gravitate to listen and imitate the cadence of their natural true gender. I think the brain knows gender before the child is even old enough to have an understanding of gender (just my theory, bc I can always hear the difference in a man's voice -- no matter how treble the pitch is, but I can't imitate it at all.)

 

As for the hairiness, that's not much of an issue. I've always been very  hairy. I've look at pics of ftm trans hairy legs and arms after a year of T, and pfft. That's nothing. I started shaving in high school because I had very pale skin and a very dark thick fuzzstache that would have been impressive on a freshman or sophomore boy. I think this may have been why people assumed I was ftm until I was about 25. a few people gushed about my "passing" and they could barely tell I'd ever been a girl. I strongly suspect they were flattering to the point of lying, but still... Thank god for San Francisco. Best place to be queer and in your 20s. 

 

It it turns out women with naturally high levels of androgen and testosterone feel the "withdrawals" from it much more than other women. And this is VERY true for me (see post in the older ace board if curious.) I haven't had the blood tests, but I'm pretty sure I'll "flunk" on my T levels. So a prescription will be easy.

[ChillaKilla]

Heads up- going on low dose T won't prevent masculinization, it will just take longer. You'll still get everything that comes with a normal dosage, but taking a few months longer. If looking male is something that really repulses you, I strongly urge you to think deeply about how hormone therapy could impact you before you make that decision.

[Mezzo Forte]

To my knowledge, low-dose T tends to have the same effects of regular-dose T, only much slower. Can't say I've looked into it much since I'm that impatient dude that takes a somewhat high dose. 

 

(For reference, I'm 13 months on testosterone.)

 

I can't say I know how much your starting pitch level affects how low you'll get, but if you already had fairly high T levels, is it possible that you've already experienced a vocal break at some point in your life? If so, I wonder if your voice is already sorted out or if you're returning to previous T levels that it just won't change too much. That said, I was an alto before I started, and while my speaking voice makes me sound like a tenor, my singing range seems to be around a baritone-bass right now. 

 

(Also, testosterone's effect on the voice is permanent, so no amount of estrogen will raise a transwoman's voice. Most train their voices on their own, some work with speech pathologists. I've heard of voice feminization surgery, but it doesn't seem terribly common.)

 

Oh and the hairiness, I was hairier than a lot of guys even pre-T with pretty much cis-female testosterone levels, and I'm a damn hairy beast now.  (Wish some of that hairiness would transfer to my face, but I'm trying to be patient!) I'm only gonna continue to get hairier too. Probably a similar thing to the voice, where testosterone may have already impacted your hairiness, but I still think you would gain new hairs starting low-dose T regardless.

 

Best of luck with everything! I hope you can get the low-dose T without the estrogen!  

[Guest]

I don't go on T for that very reason, I'm not sure if i'd be ok with looking male as T does that to you. I've seen so many videos on youtube, where people were transitioning either faster or slower..the effects are the same. I think that it's better to really consider if you really want this as some things are permanent. Maybe you could consult your gyneacologist first to see what they think?

[AVEN #1 fan]

6 hours ago, Velma said:

Thanks for all the info. The voice doesn't bother me TOO much, I just laughed thinking about what my voice would sound like if it were even lower. I was thinking of the video of the demonic sounding bass in the gospel quartet. So the voice thing was kind of a joke, just for me. The only reason I sound feminine is because I have a breathiness most men don't have. It's not gravely. It sounds like a teenage boy whose voice is starting to change, but not quite fully there. I get called sir on the phone sometimes.

 

EDIT: I just listened to the mtf woman, my voice is in the range of her lower voice which I assume is pre estrogen? It's a different tone, but pitch is the same. I also have the feminine "soft" manner of speaking, as she does. The tone is nowhere near as feminine sounding, but I do have have a slight feminine softness in my voice.

 

As as an aside, I REALLY notice the difference in vocal mannerisms in all trans people I meet. Even if they never take hormones, their voices tend to have a very distinct "tell" to me. I notice it in kids as young as 7 or 8. I don't think it's an affectation. I think on a subconscious level, they naturally gravitate to listen and imitate the cadence of their natural true gender. I think the brain knows gender before the child is even old enough to have an understanding of gender (just my theory, bc I can always hear the difference in a man's voice -- no matter how treble the pitch is, but I can't imitate it at all.)

 

As for the hairiness, that's not much of an issue. I've always been very  hairy. I've look at pics of ftm trans hairy legs and arms after a year of T, and pfft. That's nothing. I started shaving in high school because I had very pale skin and a very dark thick fuzzstache that would have been impressive on a freshman or sophomore boy. I think this may have been why people assumed I was ftm until I was about 25. a few people gushed about my "passing" and they could barely tell I'd ever been a girl. I strongly suspect they were flattering to the point of lying, but still... Thank god for San Francisco. Best place to be queer and in your 20s. 

 

It it turns out women with naturally high levels of androgen and testosterone feel the "withdrawals" from it much more than other women. And this is VERY true for me (see post in the older ace board if curious.) I haven't had the blood tests, but I'm pretty sure I'll "flunk" on my T levels. So a prescription will be easy.

This is not common in  bio females, you should investigate it, maybe you have PCOS or even an intersex condition.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

This is not common in  bio females, you should investigate it, maybe you have PCOS or even an intersex condition.

Shall we please not diagnose people in this forum? We do not have the right knowledge, nor do we know the person we are talking to, so i'd just leave that one to the actual specialists rather then playing our own.

[AVEN #1 fan]

6 minutes ago, Jayce said:

Shall we please not diagnose people in this forum? We do not have the right knowledge, nor do we know the person we are talking to, so i'd just leave that one to the actual specialists rather then playing our own.

I was just giving them advice.... I'm not diagnosing anyone.

[Guest]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

I was just giving them advice.... I'm not diagnosing anyone.

You were implying they could have PCOS or an intersex condition.

 

PCOS is a serious condition.Also, you don't become intersex, you're born intersex.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, Jayce said:

You were implying they could have PCOS or an intersex condition.

 

PCOS is a serious condition.Also, you don't become intersex, you're born intersex.

Some people never find out they're intersex.

 

 

I was just commenting they should investigate their health.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Some people never find out they're intersex.

 

 

I was just commenting they should investigate their health.

You don't have proof on that so i'd be careful when commenting on someones health. Allright, lets continue on the topic as this isn't the place to start a he said she said game.

 

My apologies for derailing your thread OP but i wanted to make sure you don't end up getting advice that isn't right for you

[Velma]

I need to clarify several things.

1. I will be taking low T for a medical condition that's not uncommon for anyone who is going through perimenopause. The blood test it to verify I have the condition and see how much I medically need. 

 

2. The choice isn't whether or not to take low T. It's should I take estrogen as well, because it's prescribed to nearly all ciswomen for cosmetic reasons.

 

3. The estrogen has more negative side effects than the testosterone. In fact, many doctors advise against hormone replacement therapy simply because if a woman's need for T is high, she'll need a high estrogen level to keep from getting masculine traits. It's no longer advised for women my age to take high estrogen bc of the medical risks. Testosterone's biggest side effects are cosmetic (unless taken in very high doses. Then breast cancer risk increases, but is still low.) 

 

4. I'm not considering low T because I think it will be less masculine looking. I'm taking it because low T will be covered by insurance. Regular T is not used for menopausal hormone replacement therapy. My copay for low T will be very low compared to regular T for trans men. It will likely be cream unless my levels are extremely low.

 

5. I don't care how masculine I end up. I'm agender apathetic. I wouldn't want to be Grizzly Adams, but full dude appearance -- not so bad. It never bothered me when people assumed I was ftm. I thought it was kind of funny.

 

6. Nearly all the FTMs I've seen at my age have a significantly slower pace of change than ppl in their 20. A man I know taking T for a year says younger guys can look like him within weeks. I think it's also his general metabolism, because other FTM my age change more slowly than 20yo, but not THAT slow.   

 

7. Because of my age and the general slower rate of change, I'll have plenty of time to say, " that's good enough" then I'd probably take estrogen- to keep the affects at bay -- not reverse them. 

 

8. I'll likely *have* to take it for about a decade, until menopause kicks in, and the hormones level out. The medical issues arise because hormones rapidly fluctuate during menopause. So I won't get a choice to stop taking it altogether. My side effects are severe enough that I was told I'd qualify for disability for CFS. Fatigue is a symptom. It's gotten worse over the years and I need 18 hours of sleep even with very strong prescription stimulants. (vyvance - to stay awake and combat serious brain fog)

 

Anyway, I hope that clears things up! 

 

 

 

[Velma]

Added bc new posts. I don't believe I have an intersex condition, unless there are intersex  who can get pregnant.  I will say I did have a very unusual puberty. I got my period at 12, and I had bad cramps, but within normal range. But I didn't develop hips or breasts until I was about 25. Before that, I made a living onstage playing children -- usually boys. I still did it after that, but I needed binding and my hips gave me away.

 

I always assume that I was like that because I was skinny and just couldn't gain enough weight to get hips, butt or boobs. But maybe my genes are a bit unusual. It might explain my extreme gender indifference.

 

my grandmother is also like me, except she was husky growing up. I looked like a very scrawny middle school boy until I was 30+ 

 

I was was told I had PCOS 10 years ago, but I didn't. I had no trouble at all getting pregnant. I had an ultrasound, and had nothing interesting.

 

edit: I just found a tumblr about an intersex who got pregnant and didn't know they were intersex until about my age. Interesting. I, like many folk assumed intersex meant infertile.

[Velma]

One more update. The intersex idea interested me, so I did some MLS magic research. I found something very interesting. It might be that I've had Kallman's syndrome most of my life. Its major symptom is hypogonadism - very low levels of hormonal activity. It's rarely diagnosed, and frequently misdiagnosed as a different condition, such as PCOS or early menopause if they have negative effects later in life. People with XX and XY can both have Kallman's. Many people with it identify as a neutral gender. 

 

The reason it stands out is not only for my very late secondary sex development, but I have practically no sense of smell and never had. I've never bothered mentioning it, except for allergy treatment. No matter how clear my sinuses, I've never cured the sense of smell thing.That seems like a really weird specific symptom that seems totally disconnected to my hormonal issues. I've never seen the sense of smell symptom connected to a hormonal imbalance like this.

 

I hate "zebra chasing" via the internet. But perhaps I can mention the symptoms and ask for the tests used to diagnose it. I don't believe in internet diagnosis, but its giving me a map and info of what questions to ask.

 

thanks for the suggestion. It may be something.

[chridd]

On 5/26/2017 at 3:30 AM, Velma said:

As as an aside, I REALLY notice the difference in vocal mannerisms in all trans people I meet. Even if they never take hormones, their voices tend to have a very distinct "tell" to me. I notice it in kids as young as 7 or 8. I don't think it's an affectation. I think on a subconscious level, they naturally gravitate to listen and imitate the cadence of their natural true gender. I think the brain knows gender before the child is even old enough to have an understanding of gender (just my theory, bc I can always hear the difference in a man's voice -- no matter how treble the pitch is, but I can't imitate it at all.)

I think it must be subconscious, because I think I do this and wasn't even aware that there was a difference until you posted this (but now that you pointed it out, I can hear it; also a trans man I watch sometimes on YouTube did this before realizing he was trans).

[Velma]

It doesn't surprise me you noticed the voice in his older videos. Once you hear it, you'll likely stop and notice now. It's kind of fun. Maybe it's not 100% accurate, but I'm right more than I'm not.

 

I used to do voice acting, and I have a very keen ear for voices. When I met a mtf trans for the first time, She was still presenting male and deep in the closet. I thought her voice was an affectation. Its not. It's very distinct, and for some reason I can't imitate it. I can imitate a feminine cadence, mostly because I naturally have a slight feminine tone.

 

My natural speaking cadence is very similar to Paul's Poundstone and Janean Garafalo (oops), who are both asexual. I've alsways sounded like them, even before I knew what asexuality was! I have tapes of me as a 9 year old (I made my own "radio shows") and I sounded like Paula Poundstone on helium. Now I'm about an octave lower than both, but you know what I mean. 

 

Neither are agender, but I wonder if they were younger they might have identified as such. Maybe not, but listen to both and you'll notice they have a distinct similar manner of speaking - one that isn't quite male or female. It's cool.

 

 

[Velma]

Update. My T level was 31. Minimum for female body is supposed to be 200. Optimal range for my age should be 400 - 600. So  I'm in seriously bad shape. I won't be getting estrogen because it's low  but still normal  and the T needs to go way up before anything else.

 

Tomorrow I schedule with the endocrinologist. I'm told by some I'll likely get a few injections until I get a high enough dose to stop sleeping 16 hours a day. And my short term memory should get much better once I get over 100. So yay. 

 

Ill probably post post this in the 40+ board someday. It's fairly common for my age and it's frequently ignored by doctors for some reason. I started showing symptoms about 5 years ago, and now I'm a mess. Other people should know to get it checked!

[AVEN #1 fan]

5 minutes ago, Velma said:

Update. My T level was 31. Minimum for female body is supposed to be 200. Optimal range for my age should be 400 - 600. So  I'm in seriously bad shape. I won't be getting estrogen because it's low  but still normal  and the T needs to go way up before anything else.

 

Tomorrow I schedule with the endocrinologist. I'm told by some I'll likely get a few injections until I get a high enough dose to stop sleeping 16 hours a day. And my short term memory should get much better once I get over 100. So yay. 

 

Ill probably post post this in the 40+ board someday. It's fairly common for my age and it's frequently ignored by doctors for some reason. I started showing symptoms about 5 years ago, and now I'm a mess. Other people should know to get it checked!

Recent studies suggest that unlikely estrogens and progestins whose increase chances,   androgens  (testosterone) have a very very small chance of increasing your breast cancer chances.

[AwkwardAxolotl]

I'm kind of late to the party, but I figured I'd offer my two cents anyways. I've been on a low dose of T for almost 3 years now (even if I wanted a higher dose, which I don't, I couldn't, my red blood cell count would get too high). Anyways, on a low dose of T you'll still get the same effects as being on a regular dose of T, just a lot slower. It took 6 months for my period to stop. My voice dropped to a tenor range after about a year, and it took two years before I could grow much in the way of facial hair. Body hair has been a gradual change, I'm hairier than your typical woman, but not nearly as hairy as a lot of guys. Though I prefer presenting as male, I can easily pass for either male or female depending on how I dress/talk/walk/etc.

 

Hope this helps.