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Is Gender 100% Social Construct? (Just interested in other people's thoughts on this)


LMcD4120

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I'd just like to hear what some of ye think. Is gender entirely a social construct, or does it have some connection to sex (or other things)? I don't have much to say about it myself right now, sorry if this post is a bit vague.

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andreas1033

There is feminine and masculine, like there is ying and yang, good and bad.

 

Gender for me, is an energetic construct, and depending on where you are on the scale, between extreme masculine, and extreme feminine, you have an energetic side to you, that is what you feel. Whether you relate to your genitals, depends on that energy, and what genitals you have, and where on that scale you are.

 

People are attracted to each others energies really.

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Analogous to how I view sexual orientations, I would say that there are biological differences (physically and mentally) between genders, but that gender identities and gender roles are socially constructed.

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Clumsy Fairy

No its not... and even if it is... so what... housing is a social construct. Cooking is a social construct... That's all I m saying on this subject, as it has been utterly done to death in my opinion. 

 

My question is "How are you going to deal with translating "special" pronouns in to all slavic, and latin based languages.. Alternative pronouns only work (to the degree they do) in english. 

 

 

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butterflydreams

A lot of gender performance is socially constructed (think clothes, styles, looks, etc) but the majority of the rest of it is not. A lot of gender roles and things like that are rooted in biology and how things used to be thousands of years ago. We are a sexually dimorphic species after all.

 

For me, having done a lot of medical transition, it's plain as day how this is not socially constructed. There's a huge biological element to it, otherwise HRT wouldn't work hardly at all. But it's done a lot more for me than just feminizing me and helping me blend in socially as a woman. It's improved my mental health dramatically. So it's hard for me to buy the 100% socially constructed argument.

 

Plus, that argument leads to weird places. If it's socially constructed, does that mean it can be chosen? If so, why so much opposition to things like conversion therapy? The whole line of reasoning is weak and dangerous IMO.

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chair jockey

Gender expression is strongly connected to traditional, normative definitions of gender. For example, wearing skirts or pants,,and breasts being noticeable or not noticeable through clothes. Usually someone who asserted that wearing a skirt is "a woman thing" would be condemned as sexist, but on AVEN people do implicitly assert that all the time and are above the rules.

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andreas1033

The scots wear kilts, so in effect they have a history of males wearing skirts.

 

Plus those scots wearing those things, would of been very masculine.

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Clumsy Fairy

I have three kilts.. <grin>... I also wear skirts at times... That does not effect my gender.. 

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Mostly Peaceful Ryan

Gender isn't a social construct from everything I've seen. It has to do with biological sex.

 

I don't see why some push that it is a social construct so hard, as if that even would make a difference. 

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Scottthespy

Sex is a real thing, and gender informed by sex is a bit of both. Gender by the definition of how one 'feels' about their identity, with no connection to the physical, is completely a social construct, and in my opinion, a very harmful one.

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Dodecahedron314

*crosses their fingers and hopes this thread won't turn problematic*

 

There are arguments for and against it. There is, to some extent, a biological component to it--the efficacy of medical transition for some people, studies of differences in brain structure in some trans people where their distributions of white and gray matter tend to correspond more closely to those associated with their actual gender as opposed to their assigned gender, the fact that some dysphoria functions not only in terms of feeling that something physically is wrong but that something else would be right, etc. However, I'm hesitant to say that it's 100% biological, because it can be such a vastly messy, complicated thing that doesn't always correspond to any given phenotype (genderflux/genderfluid people, anyone?) and has so many factors involved in it and generally just doesn't have to make logical sense. In that sense, there's definitely a socially constructed element to it as well--you can read any number of gender theorists who can tell you how and why it all came about and how it's perpetuated. They're not all unproblematic and they're not all right, but they can give you some food for thought. I would elaborate, but it's nearly midnight and I'm still recovering from several weeks of sleep deprivation.

 

22 minutes ago, Lord Grep said:

My question is "How are you going to deal with translating "special" pronouns in to all slavic, and latin based languages.. Alternative pronouns only work (to the degree they do) in english. 

People have, in fact, been coming up with neutral pronouns in other languages--ex. olle (as opposed to elle or il) in French, elle (as opposed to ella or el) in Spanish, sier (as opposed to sie or er) in German), etc. Some cursory Googling will turn up entire lists of neutral pronouns in languages other than English.

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56 minutes ago, Hadley167 said:

Plus, that argument leads to weird places. If it's socially constructed, does that mean it can be chosen?

Exactly. There are three gender-related experiences going on here.

  1. Social expectations of gender, which I can see very clearly and reject even though I know it puts me outside social boxes at times. I'm supposed to be emotionally vulnerable, want to belong to groups of women, wear dresses not pants, never question male leaders (yes, I was raised in cult-like surroundings), etc. Men or women who act outside those social roles generally understand that this does not mean they'd be comfortable or happy in the body of the opposite sex. Wanting to break the social rules isn't the same as wanting a different body. 
     
  2. Internal sense of gender which clearly exists for some people. I can observe it makes a difference even outside social gendered expectations, because a woman who prefers men's clothing and social roles will still experience and explain herself as both a woman and feminine by nature. None of the external stuff shifts their identity. They don't see themselves as men when they act in traditional male roles, and the idea of wanting the body of a man isn't attractive at all. And the same in reverse. 

    Then there are people like me who can't sense our own gender once all the obvious social and physical stuff is set aside. I was born into a traditionally female body. I don't like most of the social constraints on being female, but I'm at a point where I don't mind breaking the rules. And I still don't "feel female" or "feel male" at all. It's like watching other people enjoy spicy food and complain about how hot it is, while I only taste a bitter flavor like coffee (this is my best friend's experience of spicy, btw). Only I taste nothing when it comes to gender.  You could put me in a male body and I would still be me, just with different social experiences. I wouldn't feel misplaced, confused, or trapped in a different body. I also wouldn't feel specifically male, either.  

    Just because I can't sense my own gender does that mean nobody else can? If I can make that true by believing in it, then I'm definitely going to start believing I also have invisible wings and can fly. 
     
  3. Biological gender (also known as sex). It turns out even the physical traits commonly known as defining gender also exist on a spectrum. Most are physically one or the other, but science is showing that there are all sorts of internal wiring and physical development overlaps. It is possible to be born with a body that is a blend of both sexes, even in ways that are entirely invisible to external evaluation. 

So basically, there are three ways to experience gender. Social. Internal. Physical. And all of them are a spectrum from male to female with a large field of blended experiences in the center, not merely binary.

 

It's possible to be 100% comfortable in traditional female roles and still know oneself to be entirely male while existing in a hermaphrodite body. The world is full of complexity. That's what makes it interesting. 

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butterflydreams

I was listening to NPR a few weeks ago on a long trip and there was a geneticist talking about all sorts of things, and at one point, he started talking about his studies on homosexuality and transsexuality. Obviously he talked about studies looking for a "gay gene", that kind of thing. What was most interesting for me and what seemed to hold true in all kinds of conditions (transsexuality, homosexuality, schizophrenia, etc, etc, etc) was that these things are always the combination of factors. So for example, in gay people, they might find a higher prevalence of a certain gene. But that gene's presence alone doesn't mean a person will definitely 100% be gay. They do these kinds of studies with twins all the time. So the geneticist was really stressing that a certain gene might make you more likely to be something, but almost all of the time, it takes some kind of environmental factor, and a little bit of pure chance for the expression to result.

 

I found this very interesting, and consistent with my experiences in the world. Is there really just one gene I have that makes me trans? Hell no. But maybe if there was some gene, plus some chance event that happened in utero and my mom's womb did something funky for a minute...who knows. And then the way I was raised, and everything I did in my young years...then you're getting into chaos theory. The point is that it's never just ONE thing. It's always a combination.

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Yes. Gender is socially constructed bullshit. If girls were raised to act like how boys are raised to act, they would. And vice versa. Of course, one can only be so certain without an entire generation's worth of testing and research... but this is what I'be noticed during my very boring existence.

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Like life, it's what you make it.  Everyone has their definition of things.  My definition of gender is female & male.  Vagina & penis.  Femininity & masculinity.  Chromosomes.  I honestly don't care how someone lives their life, but I do care if they harm others or not.  Being a feminine male like drag queens, flamboyant musicians or twinks are people I like to avoid because they don't act like males.  I'm not going to tell them to do better or aspire to be more manly; I'm just going to avoid them because that's not how I live my life.  Just like I avoid masculine females who literally front a manly persona.  Gender is a fact like gender is a personality; that's how I see it.  I've learned not to ridicule anyone for being who they are either.  Live & let live; but I don't do the metrosexuality thing.

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Okay, after reading through this a bit more; is it just me or are people confuddling 'sex' and 'gender' again?

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nanogretchen4

I think identification as male or female is a matter of prenatal brain development which usually, but not always, follows the genotype of the fetus. I think the tendency of young children to socialize with and imitate others of the sex they identify as is mostly biological instinct. Some of the traits considered masculine or feminine are at least loosely based on traits that one sex is more biologically disposed to than the other, but then society exaggerates and overgeneralizes and tries to enforce the differences. Other things are utterly arbitrary like gendered hairstyles and dress codes or assigning pink to girls and blue to boys. Most people will conform to most of the conventions of whichever sex they identify with in order to fit in and because gender identity is psychologically important to most people.

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Thanks for the response, I'm glad to hear a few different opinions.

Whenever I hear someone say "gender is a social construct" I feel as though they're lumping a lot of different things together. Biological differences (men being stronger etc) have a clear impact on society, and gender. I've also heard about differences in the brain and that sort of thing but I don't really know what I'm talking about so I won't bother on that.

Anyway, it seems to be biological to me, in some way.

9 hours ago, Lord Grep said:

housing is a social construct

not sure what to think of that one

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 I've often had to say that being trans isn't  about stereotypes, aka the things that are social construct ...

most of the trans women I've associated with are geeky, they liked videogames, some of them are into coding, none of this is things associated with the stereotype of female, yet we are definitely female

Being referred to as male and having a masculine body felt dysphoric to me... having felt it, I don't think that part is just a social construct.

 

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8 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

I've known about this kid since I was a kid, Chilla. And he wasn't exactly 'raised female' as the article claims. He had a twin brother and they were both subject to disgusting, weird experiments in a really, really fucked up attempt to force this kid to be female. At least female from their super-fucked perspective. Like, they had these siblings play at pretend-fucking. As children.

 

So that doesn't exactly reflect the absense of gender-based-influence and bullshit that I wish we could experience as children. Not even anywhere near shit-fucking close.

 

So I can't even put a 'nice try' on this without some sarcasm.

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ChillaKilla

@Moophie Can you tone down the hostility a bit please?

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1 minute ago, ChillaKilla said:

@Moophie Can you tone down the hostility a bit please?

Yeah, I'm not in a good place right now, sorry. 

 

Is there a polite way to ask any single person here to read up on things before they post them??

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ChillaKilla
1 minute ago, Moophie said:

Yeah, I'm not in a good place right now, sorry. 

 

Is there a polite way to ask any single person here to read up on things before they post them??

 
It's just how was I supposed to know you were referring to a desire for an absence of gender based rearing when all you said was "if girls were raised like boys then they would act like them" and my link was intended to refute that and that only?
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12 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:
 
It's just how was I supposed to know you were referring to a desire for an absence of gender based rearing when all you said was "if girls were raised like boys then they would act like them" and my link was intended to refute that and that only?

I mean... did you read it, though? The part about the kids pretend-fucking (I'm sorry, but that's exactly what it was) Isn't that far down the article. They didn't raise this kid female, they tried to teach him how to have sex as a full-grown woman, in hopes of what I can't even guess.

 

It's a better example of the incredibly messed up failings of the medical world.

 

But, to clarify; What I said before was just an example. Kids are raised in a very specific fashion before puberty even has a chance to start changing their bodies. It is, in my opinion, entirely idiotic to think that if we changed how they were raised, they wouldn't change to match it. Outside of kids who feel early indications of gender-difference thoughts, of course.

 

But I get that I swapped it around after your post, which was unfair. I'm sorry. I wish we could bring up kids without gender-based influence is what I mean.

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butterflydreams
11 minutes ago, Moophie said:

But, to clarify; What I said before was just an example. Kids are raised in a very specific fashion before puberty even has a chance to start changing their bodies. It is, in my opinion, entirely idiotic to think that if we changed how they were raised, they wouldn't change to match it. Outside of kids who feel early indications of gender-difference thoughts, of course.

See, I have to refute this though, at least based on my personal experience. My parents could've raised me any way they wanted, I still would've turned out female inside, because that's what I'm hard-wired for. They tried to push me into more masculine things. Tried to get me into sports, tried to get me into tech stuff, and trades, but it mostly just made me miserable. Being pushed to be masculine, and with other guys...it just didn't work. Not to mention how I felt about my body. And that extends to far before puberty for me. I had a sense in some of my earliest memories that something was wrong.

 

I don't think we should bring up kids with a strict no-gender-based influence. Because that's just as bad as trying to raise them masculine or feminine. We should let them be whoever they want, and do what they want. If a boy shows interest in masculine things, parents should encourage that. If a girl shows interest in feminine things, we should encourage that. When you try to encourage a child to do things that are contrary to their natural inclilnations, you end up with me.

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3 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

)They tried to push me into more masculine things. Tried to get me into sports, tried to get me into tech stuff, and trades

Why should these things be considered inherantly masculine? They certainly aren't

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Toothlesss
7 minutes ago, Mystic Maya said:

Why should these things be considered inherantly masculine? They certainly aren't

American culture in some parts just push the ideas that certain sports are either masculine or feminine. Like because college or MLB basketball is predominantly male, the culture says that you can't play basketball in a professional way if you're females. Same for baseball, and American football.  

 

Even though there's places  where the gender thing isn't pushed, it's prevalent in mainstream American culture as a whole.

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Clumsy Fairy
19 hours ago, Dodecahedron314 said:
 
 
 

People have, in fact, been coming up with neutral pronouns in other languages--ex. olle (as opposed to elle or il) in French, elle (as opposed to ella or el) in Spanish, sier (as opposed to sie or er) in German), etc. Some cursory Googling will turn up entire lists of neutral pronouns in languages other than English.

Yeah. I can think of a SINGLE way of using Slavic languages in an un-gendered way. It would thought mean that you were treating the individual at all times as if they were socially above you. But to apply MORE than that would just not work as the whole language is gendered, and each of the gendered words change not just based on the persons gender but on the gendered nouns, adjectives etc used. You can point to wikipedia all you want, as a fluent speaker in Slovak, I can tell you adding another gender would not work grammatically in all the Slavic languages I know of, and to even have a name that is gender neutral would just not work. EG in Slovak ALL mens names end in certain letters and women's names end in "A".   I mean you could go with a pluralistic name, but then that would still screw things up...

 

Lets take Two people Vladimir, and Janka... Note the names and how they change.

 

This is Vladimir = To je Vladamir

This is Janka = to je Janka

 

This is Vladimir's friend Janka = To je Vladamírova priateľka Janka

This is Janka's friend Vladimir = To je Jankov priateľ Vladimír.

 

Are you noticing that even the work for friend "Priatel" changes. This is what makes Slavic languages such a bitch... I have a Slovak comedy sketch where I bitch about how fucking crazy Slovak is compared to English by spending 10 min going nuts about the word table.. In english it stays a table no matter what. In Slovak it changes its name depending on EVERYTHING including the gender of the person you are talking about in relation to it. Yes there is a gender neutral way of referring to things, but thats the language one uses to discuss groups of people or people in authority, all that does not include ways have having MULTIPLE differently gendered PRONOUNS...

 

PS: Picking holes in this will get you three automatic likes, so have fun. (that bit is getting funny)..

 

 

 

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