Representation and Being Boring

[CaNdy_PaNda]

I know the topic of Jughead from Riverdale not being asexual has already hit the news and this comment is late, but I was chatting with someone about the show (I don't watch it btw) and they said that the writers didn't make him ace because that would make him uninteresting. I was furious. We rarely get representation and the chance that we had at has been taken away (he may be ace in later seasons so *crosses fingers*) and you're going to say that he would be boring if he was asexual? They didn't understand that just because someone doesn't have sex means they're not fun to watch on tv. He still can have a romantic relationship. This comment really broke my heart and made me feel as though when people see me they automatically think I'm uninteresting because of my asexuality. That has nothing to do with my personality, but she still said it to my face. Anyway, asexual are amazing and should not be dismissed because of their orientation and representation is always great.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Well,the queer baiting and how they changed the teacher is rly more cringey.

[TopHatCat]

Yeah, I've seen this dismissing of asexuality as boring before (I'm not much of a fan of the show, but didn't one of the guys in charge of Sherlock do the same thing?). Ignoring the fact that it's not boring, and that they have a gay character on the show (therefore it's specifically the details of our orientation they have a problem with) the least they could do is use ace characters whenever they want a drawn out drama and romance that ends in heartbreak. I'm surprised it's not already an overused plot device. There are so many themes and layers that could play in, and there are numerous people on this website that could be used as a first-hand reference for writing a character like this. It would be sad and moving, with little processing necessary for it to work in a script-and thereby successfully representing and communicating our lives.

[Adam_Jensen]

Yes because having yet another straight character in a romantic relationship isn't boring at all 

[Dodecahedron314]

8 hours ago, TopHatCat said:

Yeah, I've seen this dismissing of asexuality as boring before (I'm not much of a fan of the show, but didn't one of the guys in charge of Sherlock do the same thing?)

Yep. Steven Moffat has done this on multiple occasions in reference to Sherlock, and I seem to remember even Benedict Cumberbatch himself parroting that reasoning when asked about it in an interview (and, IIRC, also saying some quite ableist things about it while saying that he played the character as ace intentionally, but didn't really "believe" in asexuality as an orientation...to be honest, I'm not quite sure what his deal is with the whole thing, but whatever it is, it's highly problematic). Moffat also has a history of handling female characters very poorly and (arguably) queerbaiting, so honestly it's not that surprising that he would take that kind of attitude towards asexuality considering what he seems to think people want to see in terms of relationships.

 

(Sorry for ranting, but I hold several grudges against Moffat for this and many other reasons.)

[Laplace]

Yeah shipping and romantic tensions seems to be the driving force in pretty much all fiction these days. Need more angst? Add a love triangle. Need more tension? Make a crazy lover with stalkerish traits. Need diversity? Just add exaggerated/stereotypical gays/lesbians/bisexuals. But (aromantic) asexuals? Oh no, they're boring, unless you make them into comedically serious, borderline robotic caricatures. /s Nvm the fact that there are multiple ways they could add angst, tension, or even create a good platonic friendship dynamic with characters. I don't hate tropes but sometimes I wish writers would take risks instead of falling back on stale cliches.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Aro aces have more time to scheme, we should be the most interesting characters.

[Mermaidy]

most people like sexual stuff so it's not surprising that no one wants the risk of making an asexual character.  a character who isn't driven sexually at all generally WOULD be uninteresting to people tbh

[fuzzipueo]

Plus, we're talking about stereotypical teen drama/angst. It's an overused trope, but an easy one to use, just like starting the series with another easily overused trope to kick off all the drama/angst: a murder mystery plot.

 

Having watched several episodes, I'm not really all that impressed really. They spend more time on typical CW beauty pagentness than they do on the actual characters. And to make that more outstanding, they have a corporate sponsorship that leads to some of the most clumsy product placements I've ever seen on a TV show.

[Flygunn]

I always find that argument hilarious, Jughead is canonically ace/aro in the series and to everyone I have seen the opinion of, is the MOST interesting of all the characters.  In most shows, even in rom/coms of all genres, the parts that people reference or remember as fun more often is not the implied sex interaction but the events with a loose correlation to romance at best!

 

Also, Sherlock Holmes is the saddest microcosm/representation of asexual visibility.  Sir. Arthur Conan Doyle first wrote him as asexual, and EVERY single adaptation afterwards has decided to throw that out the window.  Modern adaptations now know the existence of ace orientation and still refuse to write Sherlock Holmes as he was intended.

 

Ace/Aro being not interesting my ass, what part of Sherlock Holmes being the most interesting and famous fictional detective of all time is uninteresting?

[Homer]

Well rl Homer is boring af and as predictable as the weekdays so they might have a point

 

I'd be curious as to what they would "need" to find sth "interesting".

[Guest]

Riverdale has issues. 

 

I love Jughead especially in the comics he was my frav and still is and when they made him ace it was like a dream come true but Riverdale is being so lame with that. Cole Sprouse admitted he wants Jughead to be ace even. I mean Shadowhunters the vampire Raphael came out as ace in the last episode and it was such a plot twist and so interesting and shocking.

 

I am begging for a series that is epic and fantastic without a flipping sex scene 

[Zendalis]

I'm frankly surprised that more shows are not making use of asexual characters and story lines, after the success of Sheldon Cooper (and yes, he is ace, whether the creators cope to it, or not) in TBBT, both before and after the romantic arc with Amy Farrah Fowler... I mean, one of the most common observations about that romance was the detail and layers exposed in the relationship precisely because it was not muddled up by sex, regardless of the "when will they do it" trope. That it became the most popular pairing in the show is something that others in the industry should be paying attention to, not because there is anything wrong with sexual characters, but because asexual characters offer interesting story possibilities on their own right. As an aside: kudos to the creators for not turning them into sex-crazed caricatures after they "finally" engaged in the coitus. By making it a once-a-year thing, they tried to keep the focus on what made the relationship so good to begin with...I'm surprised they kept the corporate studio idiots at bay for as long as they did.

 

I think that as the aforementioned corporate studio idiots (aka: predominately perv white middle-aged guys) begin to die out, we will see more and more entertainment that actually reflects the growing -though for now, still- "alternate" views and lifestyles of the new generations of viewers.

[200 Ponies]

That show has so many problems. I only watched the first few episodes, but I was already driven crazy by the kiss between Veronica and Betty. Unless that kiss turns out like Faking It did, I don't much care to see two straight girls kissing for sweeps week. And then they had the ridiculously over-used practically celibate "gay best friend" trope. I figured I'd still watch it even through all that garbage just for aro/ace Jughead, but then the creators said it'd be bad television if he weren't romantically or sexually into anyone. Nothing better than someone telling you your orientation is just a bore for all those allo viewers who definitely don't already have enough representation. Oh well.

[Philip027]

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He still can have a romantic relationship.

Yeah, see, I think this is something a lot of people won't get because they equate sex with romance.  Also, a lot of people wouldn't get that asexuals can still be capable of and willing to have sex.  Until this sort of thing changes, an asexual character in media is pretty much always going to be seen as "flat character that cannot be morally implemented into our inevitable twisting relationship plots"

 

Quote

This comment really broke my heart and made me feel as though when people see me they automatically think I'm uninteresting because of my asexuality.

That could be true.  Here's the thing though -- people expect different things out of media then they do out of reality.  You might have someone that always prefers to see action flicks when they go to the movies, for instance.  That doesn't necessarily mean they expect all of their RL friends to be daredevils.

 

And really, if they just automatically assume you must be uninteresting because of that one thing, are they really someone that's worth your time anyway?

[GlassHalfFull]

On 4/29/2017 at 10:57 PM, Adam_Jensen said:

Yes because having yet another straight character in a romantic relationship isn't boring at all 

GOD YES! We've already seen this a million fucking times! 

[Flygunn]

 

1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

On 4/30/2017 at 2:47 AM, CaNdy_PaNda said:

He still can have a romantic relationship.

Yeah, see, I think this is something a lot of people won't get because they equate sex with romance.  Also, a lot of people wouldn't get that asexuals can still be capable of and willing to have sex.

That is currently my last hope, that Jughead still has the possibility of being asexual.  However, it is still disappointing that such a great example of a canonically asexual aromantic character who is considered interesting lost not only representation we need and a large aspect of his own character, but the symbolism of being a character foil to his hypersexualized friend, Archie.

[Machine_Artificia]

I actually said this exact thing today when I told my therapist about my proclivity to having no actual sexual proclivities. She asked me why I didn't tell her and I said:

 

"Oh, because I thought you would find it boring that I am not talking about guys and [sexual] relationships. Also that its alienating when people are not like you, it tends to put distance between people when they don't understand, relate to, or like that part of the person.

 

And you and I relate real well with each other. 

How can I tell anybody?

 

My girl friends would feel weird about girltalk with me, I know them well. Rather than open doors, it would close doors. I would be seen as a closed door, "boring", lacking chances of trysts and opportunities for something to 'happen'."

 

I expanded on that more eloquently in writing it down here, but that is pretty much all I said. 

 

So I understand. I myself fear that 'boring' stigma good and well to the extent that it made me have sex when I didn't want to, just to seem normal and exciting. *shrugs*

 

Needless to say, she then asked about my medical history (all normal, full blood panel, not taking drugs, etc) Which is exactly what I thought would happen.

 

Either trusting and acceptance or the puzzled looks and medical questions come along. 😔

 

*Speaking of which, Archie is not as hypersexual as I thought he was going to be. I wish Jughead would have stayed Jughead. Betty's mom is a total trip!! XD

[Philip027]

8 minutes ago, Machine_Artificia said:

I actually said this exact thing today when I told my therapist about my proclivity to having no actual sexual proclivities. She asked me why I didn't tell her and I said:

 

"Oh, because I thought you would find it boring that I am not talking about guys and [sexual] relationships. Also that its alienating when people are not like you, it tends to put distance between people when they don't understand, relate to, or like that part of the person.

 

And you and I relate real well with each other. 

How can I tell anybody?

 

My girl friends would feel weird about girltalk with me, I know them well. Rather than open doors, it would close doors. I would be seen as a closed door, "boring", lacking chances of trysts and opportunities for something to 'happen'."

 

I expanded on that more eloquently in writing it down here, but that is pretty much all I said. 

 

So I understand. I myself fear that 'boring' stigma good and well to the extent that it made me have sex when I didn't want to, just to seem normal and exciting. *shrugs*

 

Needless to say, she then asked about my medical history (all normal, full blood panel, not taking drugs, etc) Which is exactly what I thought would happen.

 

Either trusting and acceptance or the puzzled looks and medical questions come along. 😔

 

*Speaking of which, Archie is not as hypersexual as I thought he was going to be. I wish Jughead would have stayed Jughead. Betty's mom is a total trip!! XD

Just so you know, how you say stuff is just as important (if not more) as what you actually say.  If you went on and on trying to defend it like how you did here in writing, it could indicate to some/most therapists that you actually do have a problem with the way you are (whether or not that's actually true) and they might be inclined to dig a little deeper regarding that.  They're trained to try to read between the lines a little bit (sometimes, too much); that's part of their job description.

 

Whereas if you had just said it offhandedly like it was no big deal, there's some chance they wouldn't have made a deal of it either.

[Machine_Artificia]

Yeah I was more offhand in person, @Philip027 its just when you write it down, it gets explainy. What I said was much more *shrugs* than this. For this post, felt like I had to explain as to why. Not so much in person though. Solid point Philip.

[deannu]

I believe the character of Todd Chavez in Bojack Horseman is asexual!! He's a great character, and when the show explores his sexuality it is very interesting (and relatable). It's a shame that the only time I've seen the identity properly represented is in an animated show where half the characters are anthropomorphic animals... 
Also Varys from Game of Thrones is ace, but most people discount him because he has no genitalia, so the representation is kind of ruined  

[Laplace]

I think it could be really tragic, dramatic, and heartbreaking to establish a character as aro/ace and have someone fall in love with them. It'd be really good character development to show how much this incapable orientation really hurts the aro/ace as well as the unrequited lover. Then they could eventually resolve it and show how strong platonic friendships can really be, and that two people can bring out the best in each other without being romantically involved. It'd be like two characters finally hooking up but in platonic way. I feel like it's really rare these days to see a clearly platonic relationship between two characters who are normally romantically compatible that isn't laden with shipping bait. Though, not to be cynical and antisexual, I get the feeling the masses won't really get the aro/ace dynamic very well. ☹️

[Rhaenys]

I'm an Archie comics fan but I despise Riverdale so much.The thing is regardless of sexualities CW still butchered a lot of the series to make it "interesting." 

 

Asexuality isn't boring if you know how to write it well. You can create so much drama and tension in a story where an ace and a sexual are in love. There were interesting characters who didn't depend on their sexuality to drive a story like Sherlock and Sheldon Cooper.

 

Then again I shudder to think if we get misrepresented again like in House.

[GlassHalfFull]

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/riverdale-jughead-asexual-defense.html

 

To my fellow aces who complain about Jughead in the new Riverdale show, please read this article. It might change your mind or make you less upset. 

[Philip027]

I'm sitting here wondering why a kiss suddenly displays what your sexual orientation is.

 

Sure, the media probably is well known for using it as a "wink wink, nudge nudge" sort of thing since they obviously can't depict actual sex acts, but that's still being rather presumptuous on the part of the audience.

[Flygunn]

5 hours ago, GlassHalfFull said:

http://www.vulture.com/2017/03/riverdale-jughead-asexual-defense.html

 

To my fellow aces who complain about Jughead in the new Riverdale show, please read this article. It might change your mind or make you less upset. 

That is not exactly a defense.  Jughead is not just asexual, he is also aromantic.  Unless the writers find a way to explain that Betty's interest in him made him feel gratified and that in combination with his strong emotional bond with Betty as a friend made him confused about his feelings, which as the story goes on and on seems more and more unlikely, we will have a character who is not aro/ace.  There is still a possibility of Jughead as asexual, however that is not all Jughead is.  I am all for representation, however in my opinion, the core elements of a character should always come first.  Jughead is a rare case where these two desires walk hand in hand perfectly.  Throughout the new continuity (in which he is canonically known as asexual) and the old, the closest he has ever been to romantically interested in someone is a squish on Sabrina where even her magic could not make him fall in love (new canon continuity), and him telling Betty that if he did like girls, it would be her (old canon continuity).  Jughead consistently flees when someone is enamoured with him, and it seems forced and out of character to make Jughead lose his character and symbolism because the director does not believe his orientation to be capable of being of interest.  That being said, it is not as though Riverdale has kept anyone the same, it has been made quite clear that the characters we once knew are going to be made into darker versions of themselves or completely new characters.  The twist of the gut entrenched knife however, is that all orientations in the show, be it straight or gay, have remained unchanged... Except for the ace/aro character...  Especially since Kevin has not done anything "interesting" as a homosexual aside from jokes from himself and others, which asexuals could without a doubt also have.  His relationship with the South Side Serpent could easily have been changed to a hetero relationship with absolutely no change in dynamics.

[improbability]

On 4/30/2017 at 1:22 PM, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Aro aces have more time to scheme, we should be the most interesting characters.

This is comics-Jughead all over! One of the things I loved about the first issue of reboot Archie was Jughead's secret (benign) scheming, and in his own comic he gets a line about how he's the only one who notices the evil principal because he's not distracted by a fog of hormones the way the rest of them are. The comics also have some excellent examples of getting drama from asexuality--the awkward date with Sabrina is the obvious example, but it's also a running theme that Archie is so preoccupied with girls and dating that it's putting a strain on his and Jughead's friendship, like the time they go for a walk in the woods and it turns out Archie just wanted to go by the girls' summer camp. 

 

So yeah, the whole "asexuality is boring" thing pisses me off, too. As if allo characters are only interesting because of sex.

[CaNdy_PaNda]

On 2017-05-07 at 7:52 AM, improbability said:

This is comics-Jughead all over! One of the things I loved about the first issue of reboot Archie was Jughead's secret (benign) scheming, and in his own comic he gets a line about how he's the only one who notices the evil principal because he's not distracted by a fog of hormones the way the rest of them are. The comics also have some excellent examples of getting drama from asexuality--the awkward date with Sabrina is the obvious example, but it's also a running theme that Archie is so preoccupied with girls and dating that it's putting a strain on his and Jughead's friendship, like the time they go for a walk in the woods and it turns out Archie just wanted to go by the girls' summer camp. 

 

So yeah, the whole "asexuality is boring" thing pisses me off, too. As if allo characters are only interesting because of sex.

I noticed your love for the new reboot comic Jughead and I am the exact same. Volume 2 of Jughead is AMAZING. It was funny and really well done and the Sabrina date killed me. It's so awesome to see the comic lovers out here.