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vegan tells me I am an addict


Dudette

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Anthracite_Impreza

^ Tbf, that one sounds like an extremist. My mate's been vegan for over a decade and hardly spends any time cooking (he eats chips, many chips).

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1 hour ago, Dudette said:

Because I tried to help him to pass a semester (I would teach him after class, I did all the assignments by myself (we were in the same group)), but he would just cook and eat all day. I tried to tell him that he doesn't have to cook the most organic food, and education is also important, and it would be helpful if he could help me with the assignments, but then I would have to listen for hours about how the Jews and Armenians are running the food corporations and putting hormones in everything, how much people are addicted to meat and people who eat meat are stupid, and the organic vegan diet is solution for everything (world peace, starvation, class struggle, etc).

Well, I guess I stand corrected. Some people take it way too far. It sounds like he drank too much of the kool-aid... Is this the same person you were talking about earlier in the thread?

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Perissodactyla

I think it's a great concept for a TV or YouTube documentary series that might also have comedic elements sometimes:

 

"Extreme Vegans!"

 

I confess that I've been pretty extreme during my early vegan transformation and i mellowed out over time.

 

If you go through this 'awakening' when you have a lot of time on your hands and freedom to take ideas to their extreme logical, passionate conclusions, it can be a really valuable, insight-revealing self-experimental journey to observe one's inquiry/investigation with no limits, but hopefully without disrupting other people's lives or sanity too much. :)

 

When I was a freshman in college, and having to make my own food-consumption decisions for the first time, I discovered a quite transformative book called "The Mucusless Diet Healing System" by Arnold Ehret. This book really radically changed by life and I immediately began the transition into being a fruitarian which eventually led me to experiment with self-control and extreme fasting while living only on fruit and fruit and vegetable juices. I read a lot of similar books as well, to reinforce my resolve and dedication, many of which contained lists of which plants had what nutrients. It was then that I realized that plants contained different amounts of certain essential amino acids and other nutrients, so this allowed me to abandon the usual unexamined notions of what 'protein' is and how much of it a body needs and what the sources are that have no connection to other animals.

 

I was studying math, chemistry and philosophy at the time, so my analytical studies complemented and supported my extreme personal food investigations. ha

 

I was almost never bothering to become normative about this project (preaching to others), but I became really focused and somewhat fanatical on optimizing my health and lightness and purification by only eating fruit. After a couple of years of this project, I became rather skeletal but felt wonderful! I imagined myself as a sort of water monkey who lived an arboreal existence, hanging out high up in the tree branches, eat the fruit of various trees that I swung around in. It seemed very logical at the time! lol

 

I'm still pretty ascetic in my consumption of food and self-control and restricting my diet to only healthy inputs not only comes easy for me, but I really get off on self-control and constraint, psychically. But it's not that hard, since it equates to eating tons of fresh yummy nutritious foods that really directly produce physical and emotional euphoria, health, strength and a strong sense of being very connected with nature.

It also brings a strong sense of lightness, gentleness, being playful, curious and.... ummm... monkey-like! lol

 

I think my personal emphasis on the health rationale behind being vegan as opposed to the moral dimensions, is a way to trick my brain into retreating from futile battles with other monkeys who have lost their connection with the fruit-eating monkey identity. lol

 

I guess I find myself offering various fruit and other food-discoveries to people to subtly remind them or tempt them back into the trees where it's safe and happy. :)

 

 

 

 

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Well, if you actually wear a t-shirt like that it do make you preachy. Like 99% of people don't mind people being vegan or vegetarian. But it seem like you, with tshirts like that, like to potray yourself as some sort of victimhood because of a defensive society. 

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6 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

Well, if you actually wear a t-shirt like that it do make you preachy. Like 99% of people don't mind people being vegan or vegetarian. But it seem like you, with tshirts like that, like to potray yourself as some sort of victimhood because of a defensive society. 

I was just making a joke, I wouldn't really wear this. :lol:

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Nah I get that. But it is the general gest of this thread. Like most don't care if you're vegan, but once the vegans here start to talk about serial killers, and eatig dogs, evil society and generally being immoral they jump to conclusion as others are being defensive and can't respect them. That is in basically making yourself as a martyr, however there is no witchunt. So it seem like the more rabiat vegan and vegetarians have concluded that non vegans stigmatise them. 

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2 hours ago, Zosia said:

Well, I guess I stand corrected. Some people take it way too far. It sounds like he drank too much of the kool-aid... Is this the same person you were talking about earlier in the thread?

Yea :(, I have been treated like a dog by him and his vegan friends for 1 year now. 

I just do not understand why it is possible for non-vegan to accept vegan, but vegans cannot do this back :(.

Why vegans have to be disrespectful towards non-vegans?

This is something, I cannot understand since we are able to do it with everything else such as religion, sexual orientations, race, but when it comes to food then discriminations is allowed and viewing a person as sub-human is acceptable just because she/he is different. :(

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41 minutes ago, Dudette said:

Yea :(, I have been treated like a dog by him and his vegan friends for 1 year now. 

I just do not understand why it is possible for non-vegan to accept vegan, but vegans cannot do this back :(.

I'm sorry to hear that. You don't deserve to be treated like crap. To answer your second question (hopefully? these are poor comparisons, but it's the only thing that came to mind), that's like asking someone who doesn't drink to accept their friend's risky drinking behavior that puts others in harm's way. The non-drinker (or responsible drinker?) can still be friends with and want to hang out with their drinking friend, but they don't agree with how their actions put others in danger and would wish that their friend would consider not drinking if they can't be responsible about it, or at least not drink as much as they currently do so that they don't harm others. Does that make sense? Vegans who are vegan for ethical reasons have a hard time throwing their hands in the air and saying, "So what? Do whatever you feel like doing, I don't care!" because supporting these industries and engaging in these actions harm animals unnecessarily a large portion of the time, and vegans see this as an injustice. And to expect them to not be bothered by it or to not say anything about it or to not try and challenge assumptions is largely unreasonable, you could say. But that doesn't mean that vegans have a free pass to be cruel to those who partake in these actions. We can disagree, but lets just not bite eachother's heads off.

 

Do you happen to know if your friend is a follower of any specific big-name vegan online? Some of the things he's said ring some alarm bells, and I was just wondering if he has gotten himself tied up in anything.

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21 hours ago, Zosia said:

I'm sorry to hear that. You don't deserve to be treated like crap. To answer your second question (hopefully? these are poor comparisons, but it's the only thing that came to mind), that's like asking someone who doesn't drink to accept their friend's risky drinking behavior that puts others in harm's way. The non-drinker (or responsible drinker?) can still be friends with and want to hang out with their drinking friend, but they don't agree with how their actions put others in danger and would wish that their friend would consider not drinking if they can't be responsible about it, or at least not drink as much as they currently do so that they don't harm others. Does that make sense? Vegans who are vegan for ethical reasons have a hard time throwing their hands in the air and saying, "So what? Do whatever you feel like doing, I don't care!" because supporting these industries and engaging in these actions harm animals unnecessarily a large portion of the time, and vegans see this as an injustice. And to expect them to not be bothered by it or to not say anything about it or to not try and challenge assumptions is largely unreasonable, you could say. But that doesn't meant that vegans have a free pass to be cruel to those who partake in these actions. We can disagree, but lets just not bite eachother's heads off.

 

Do you happen to know if your friend is a follower of any specific big-name vegan online? Some of the things he's said ring some alarm bells, and I was just wondering if he has gotten himself tied up in anything.

I think he is still trying to find his way. But I think he is doing it the wrong way because he wants people to "convert" to his believe system. 

What I am trying to say is that he thinks "veganism is the answer, Hinduism is the only true knowledge, and people who disagree are just idiots which I should try to convert."

This is the problem which I have noticed he does not accept people who have different believe system (ethics, ethnicity, religion, etc.) :(.

I just do not understand why some people take ideologies so far, and believe that they know better than everyone else :(?

I do not understand why these people want to control other people :(?

 

“Don’t walk in front of me… I may not follow
Don’t walk behind me… I may not lead
Walk beside me… just be my friend”

:(

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Perissodactyla

Ask him if he is sincere about his goal to educate others to his view.

 

Then ask him if he thinks his methods actually appeal to people and are effective in encouraging them to re-examine their views and adopt his.

 

Ask him if he thinks he is trustworthy and if people find his style of communication kind, caring and respectful.

 

Ask him if he is self-aware at how others may view him as a turn-off, and that maybe others see him as aggressive, fanatical, unstable, annoying and working AGAINST their Ever considering his message and conclusions at their own speed.

 

Ask him if someone forced him into his beliefs or if he came to his awakening of the 'truth' voluntarily, when he was ripe for his conversion process to unfold.

 

Ask him if he is aware that maybe other people see him as a kook.

 

Ask him if he realizes that in his strong desire to force or bully people into converting to his view, that this is a form of ego-centered behavior and it's a low-level violent or aggressive behavior which is symptomatic of eventual mental health issues.

 

Maybe you can't ask that, although he should realize that he puts his reputation and claimed agenda at risk by his style of communication.

 

Somehow he deserves to be set straight that perhaps he is his own worst enemy, if he sincerely wants others to become more aware.

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Referring to the post about the expensive soy milk, where do you guys buy your food?! I've personally never bought milk for 3-4 dollars and certainly not $10 bucks! Goodness.

 

If you go to a health food store or common grocery story, you will find expensive vegan things- it's partially because Big Ag wants you to see the expenses of vegetarianism/veganism, and also because what you're probably looking at is Brand names and novelty food like "fake meat" or vegan cheese, or etc. The secret to being vegan on the cheap, is the shop where food costs less and where quality food exist- I mostly only shop at Aldi, WinCo, and once in a blue moon, Sprouts.

 

Typically I spend around $10 a week on food (*note: I have an undereating problem right now, normally I can spend around $15 to $20 bucks a week), I usually buy a bulk mass of pre-washed greens for salad or sandwiches, jarred mushrooms, bulk oatmeal, bread, fruit, cereal, beans, rice, and soymilk. I spend the most money on a meal replacement powder (which really isn't a meal replacement per say, but contains the majority or all of nutritional needs including probiotics) which is $30, nutritional yeast in bulk is about $8.00, and fortified soy milk is around $2.19 at Aldi. 

 

As for finding ways to eat vegan on the cheap- veganism us naturally the world's cheapest diet, it's marketed as a rich person's die-hard very luxurious with all this fruit, and powder and tedious work. Lol, I've never eaten that way, I usually are the way I did before- oatmeal or cereal if I eat breakfast, sandwich for lunch, soup or pasta or rice and beans for dinner, plus some type of snack between all that. Could I be healthier? Probably. But this works for me best.

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1 hour ago, The Dryad said:

Referring to the post about the expensive soy milk, where do you guys buy your food?! I've personally never bought milk for 3-4 dollars and certainly not $10 bucks! Goodness.

 

If you go to a health food store or common grocery story, you will find expensive vegan things- it's partially because Big Ag wants you to see the expenses of vegetarianism/veganism, and also because what you're probably looking at is Brand names and novelty food like "fake meat" or vegan cheese, or etc. The secret to being vegan on the cheap, is the shop where food costs less and where quality food exist- I mostly only shop at Aldi, WinCo, and once in a blue moon, Sprouts.

Walmart? And even there, the plant milks cost about $3-$4. But that's the cheapest place that I can find it. I don't have many places that I can shop at--I don't live in a big city, I live in the middle of nowhere basically. I have either Walmart, Target, a couple of mom-and-pop local grocery stores which are more expensive and have far less of a selection of items, or gas stations. I've never heard of those grocery stores that you mentioned. Good luck finding cheap quality food here. Most of the food that I eat is either canned or dried because the produce at these stores is often really nasty. It's often rotting on the shelf, covered in black sludge, or growing fur. Or there's an empty slot where there should be produce. I've seen this both at Walmart and at the small corner grocery stores (I don't think my Target has a produce section). They've also had issues with flies, and there was one time not that long ago that I bought some cherry tomatoes and didn't realize until after I had eaten some whole ones as a snack that they had worms in them. So, I've been really put-off by their produce. And their produce isn't cheap by any means, either. I don't know what is with these stores, but I've also learned from multiple bad experiences that I always need to check the expiration date on plant milks before I buy them because there have been a few times where I've bought some and didn't realize until I got home that they were expired. There was one time where I bought some rice milk and realized once I got home that it was four MONTHS past its expiration date. I guess not many people here in cattle country are buying plant milk, so it just sours on the shelf. One of the local stores have stopped selling the rice milk (they still have soy), but I think they did this because they realized they don't have much of a market here. Other than the plant milks, we don't really have what you would call "novelty" vegan items. There's one brand of vegetarian sausage at one store, and Walmart has a few different kinds of vegetarian faux-meats (they still have milk and eggs in them), they have one brand of soy yogurt, and that's about it.

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5 hours ago, Zosia said:

Walmart? And even there, the plant milks cost about $3-$4. But that's the cheapest place that I can find it. I don't have many places that I can shop at--I don't live in a big city, I live in the middle of nowhere basically. I have either Walmart, Target, a couple of mom-and-pop local grocery stores which are more expensive and have far less of a selection of items, or gas stations. I've never heard of those grocery stores that you mentioned. Good luck finding cheap quality food here. Most of the food that I eat is either canned or dried because the produce at these stores is often really nasty. It's often rotting on the shelf, covered in black sludge, or growing fur. Or there's an empty slot where there should be produce. I've seen this both at Walmart and at the small corner grocery stores (I don't think my Target has a produce section). They've also had issues with flies, and there was one time not that long ago that I bought some cherry tomatoes and didn't realize until after I had eaten some whole ones as a snack that they had worms in them. So, I've been really put-off by their produce. And their produce isn't cheap by any means, either. I don't know what is with these stores, but I've also learned from multiple bad experiences that I always need to check the expiration date on plant milks before I buy them because there have been a few times where I've bought some and didn't realize until I got home that they were expired. There was one time where I bought some rice milk and realized once I got home that it was four MONTHS past its expiration date. I guess not many people here in cattle country are buying plant milk, so it just sours on the shelf. One of the local stores have stopped selling the rice milk (they still have soy), but I think they did this because they realized they don't have much of a market here. Other than the plant milks, we don't really have what you would call "novelty" vegan items. There's one brand of vegetarian sausage at one store, and Walmart has a few different kinds of vegetarian faux-meats (they still have milk and eggs in them), they have one brand of soy yogurt, and that's about it.

Whoa....that's pretty terrible, I live in a well populated city though, with tons of stores and options, Texas just started getting WinCo and Aldi and Trader Joe's not too long ago though, a few years back. Food here is pretty cheap though, as well, but I don't like Walmart, I think it's more expensive rather than "price cutting", it's crazy if you compare some of their prices to other places, but I also understand some people don't have a choice. The only thing I get at Walmart is tofu (~$1.89?) And Just Mayo for like 3 bucks for a 32 oz. When I lived in a rural country place though, they had several vegetarian/vegan options at stores. If that yogurt brand is called something like "stoney field" or "stonybrook" I think my Walmart used to carry that as well, ~I'm getting nostalgic, I miss that expensive yogurt.

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  • 1 month later...

Wow, I really enjoyed reading this thread. 

@oval Your posts here were very thoughtful and well expressed.

@Dudette It was wrong for your friend to treat you that way. 

 

 

 

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On 5/20/2017 at 11:01 AM, The Dryad said:

I think as long as humans have existed there have always been meat eaters and vegetarians and vegans, for various reasons, I think that for whatever reason you sustain yourself the way you do, we can't force other people to change per say, but we can give them our reasonings and inspire them to change without arguing and without compromising our beliefs. As a vegan who was a meat eater up until my 15th birthday, I can understand the belief that meat eating is natural, as we have always practiced it and believed it.....and you can always find some biased scientific study as well as unbiased scientific study to prove whatever point you're biased towards. 

 

I say that, all three diets are technically natural to humans, since we're omnivores, we can survive on solely vegetables (especially vegetables that have not been cleaned well for B12, but I digress) and a diet of meat and vegetables. Vegetarianism and veganism are mostly moral standpoints (or preferences), and it's easier to just respect each other for our differences, no matter how hard it is.

Until recent history people had to eat whatever was available so veganism before the agricultural revolution would have been very rare. Vegetarianism wouldn't have really been a thing before agriculture either because while hunter gatherers may have eaten the occasional egg, they certainly didn't eat them regularly and they didn't consume any dairy. 

 

The idea that we can get B-12 from unwashed vegetables is a largely a vegan myth. The inability to synthesize B-12 is a shared trait among primates. Non-human primates fed a vegan diet in captivity have developed deficiencies. All primates seem to eat at least a small amount of meat in the wild, often in the form of insects. (which just so happened to be packed with vitamins that would be useful to humans as well.) 

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On 5/19/2017 at 5:34 PM, oval said:

<3  Thank you so much! Well, you Really go me thinking there, so thanks to you, too! :D

 

In this discussion thread and recently another one, there is an exchange about attitudes and concepts about veganism-related topics, although that is actually a broad set of topics.

 

My own view and motivation is much Less framed by moral issues than scientific and logical views regarding health and performance enhancement.

 

Recently (in past weeks) I've discovered notions of self-experimentation to enhance health and performance, which are loosely described as 'bio-hacking'. I don't know much about the project or its methods and philosophy yet, but I can see already there are many references and inspirations to dive into.

 

 

I thought to raise this topic, since you mentioned the importance of protein and it's quality and our recognition and affinity for different types of amino acids and their sources, which we need to repair and replace tissue, of course. I realized I've self-experimented nutritionally for many years without having a concept for it. It's not so different from realizing I was asexual after many years of not grasping the meaning, nature and function of sexuality, but having an asexual attitude anyway... without being able to conceptualize or discuss it.

 

I take a scientific view towards food as much as I have the skill to. And I exercise a lot of will and self-control, so I mostly view food selection as motivated by what the nutrients are rather than adhering to traditions and norms of eating. I regularly experiment with super-food supplements and herbs as a kind of test pilot to see if I can perceive how differently they make me feel, as the affects range from being subtle to quite obvious, all depending on what the substance, herb or food IS, of course.

 

I enjoy conducting daily short fasts where I don't eat for 18 to 24 hours, and then I eat for a couple of hours some very highly nutrient-rich food. If I could behave like an astronaut and just take a protein pill or similar, I would welcome becoming free from food preparation and cleaning up, which I do enjoy, but which I'd rather not bother with.

 

And so my view of food is framed by my fantasy of what I would eat if I were an interstellar astronaut who didn't need to do more than refuel the body as vehicle as efficiently as quickly as possible. I confess to finding the whole eating process rather disgusting, even though, since I'm forced to eat, I can very much enjoy it, since I have no choice and just make the best of it. lol  It's the old 'shedding the monkey' attitude, where the shedding process is observed without the angel siamese twin ripping the monkey off prematurely, if that makes sense. :)

 

I guess I'm way off topic now, so maybe I'll start a thread about self-experimentation for performance/health enhancement (bio-hacking, so-called).

 

 

 

I find the eating process rather disgusting as well. I'm a bit like Pearl from Steven Universe, I don't like food being squished through my body(sometimes painfully). The idea of eating in general is also rather gross. 

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On 5/21/2017 at 9:42 AM, oval said:

I am really interested and appreciative to read more about your view. I respect you position, even if i personally don't understand your conclusions. But I remember when I had a similar view and could not understand the opposing opinions of others. I think a lot about what you and others like you say about this topic, and I try to take a wider understanding beyond fighting for a cherished sense of justice and avoiding self-righteous aggression against positions I don't understand or accept.

 

I personally feel that many vegans do a disservice to their goals of increasing non-violence and reduction of harm to living things.

I sometimes wonder if some vegans are under-nourished predators who actually stalk and consider killing their victims ---> those whose personal ethics they dislike and enjoy fighting against. There is a certain kind of aggression among some vegans that tarnishes the brand of veganism and non-violence, in my opinion. I could say a lot about this topic with examples and a philosophical context, but I won't do that here.

 

On the other hand, I find myself wondering about very bizarre propositions sometimes such as 'why is it wrong to kill humans for food?'

Just posing this question seems crazy, but I woke up this morning wondering why everyone agrees that killing humans is a bad idea, but killing other intelligent mammals, even those who clearly show social and emotional qualities, is sanctioned as okay. It just seems weird.

 

I have relatives who are farmers and who keep livestock for dairy and meat production, so I've experienced that whole scene up close many times. My farming relatives are also skilled and experienced hunters who are very expert with guns and bow and arrow hunting, mostly for deer and elk. The grew up in the country where there is not that much to do that's interesting, so one thing they often like to do is go out for target practice by shooting random birds and rodents or whatever. When I first witnessed that when I was very young, it made a big impression on me.

 

My relatives who are the most skilled hunters are also skilled butchers, since often they have to skin and cut up the animal on the spot if they want to take it home... assuming they are hunting in a prime wilderness area that has elk, moose, deer or whatever they want to stalk and kill and eat.

 

I know that if I had grown up closer to my relatives (they live in North and South Dakota) and I live in California, I am certain that I would now also be an experienced hunter and consumer of animal flesh. Maybe not, but I just assume it's more of the norm to hunt when you live out in the country. One has a different view of the position of animals, as you got me to think about just now. And I think those people who haven't lived out in the the farming country away from 'town', have a difficulty in relating and empathizing with 'farming' and 'hunting' 'ethics'.

 

I used to go fishing a lot with my family as a child and it was fun, but the older I got, the more I became disgusted by how gross and cruel it is, even though I ate the fish with enjoyment. My father always cleaned the fish, since he didn't want us to see the horror of them suffocating, getting their heads cut off and their guts pulled out with the fingers. When I first did actually witness that, it also made a big impression on me which sunk in deeply.

 

I have a lot of respect for people who kill their own food. While I do think it's avoidable, unnecessary and wrong, I also do basically agree that humans are killer-monkeys who adapted to gathering more and more plants and plant-knowledge and later becoming farmers.

 

I suppose that the basic aggression that appears hard-wired into humans as killer-apes is a difficult species-identity-reflection to cope with! lol

 

If you've seen the movie 2001, a Space Odyssey, there is a very interesting depiction of human evolution at the beginning of the film, which I really recommend seeing! I won't spoil it here, but just see it and maybe we can discuss it. :D

 

Okay, that's enough from me for now. I'm going to the local farmer's market now stalk to some organic vegetables for sale. :D LOL

 

 

 

Some vegans do act very predatory at times. For example, when the Youtuber Vegan Gains described his fantasies of slitting Repzion's throat I couldn't help but make the connection. 

 

I also admit I worried about the meat eating ideology leading to cannibalism, but that's not how people really think. 

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  • 1 year later...

I usually don't try to convert people because I assume it will have the opposite of the intended effect due to this stereotype. I barely talk about it at all. Actually, sometimes if people find out I'm vegan for a reason as simple as we're eating a meal together, they start to act offended and vehemently defend their behavior while criticizing veganism even if I didn't say anything to them about it.

 

Sometimes I like to try to tell people that it's not just about animal cruelty, though, it's also the fact that meat is an economic and environmental drain. It takes way more grain production/grain use to feed and raise one cow than to give the same amount of calories straight from plants to a human. I say this because I don't think a lot of people realize it. The solution to this wouldn't necessarily need to be veganism, though. It would be much more economic and space efficient if we replaced the meat we typically eat here in the west with insects. I doubt that will happen anytime soon, though. If our species survives much longer, it may be necessary to do something like that. Our population is really getting too big to depend on meat to the extent a lot of people do.

 

In the end, its your decision what you eat. I personally don't think any less of you for it.

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Also, I'm not sure you could get a withdrawal from it, but milk does have opioid effects. You can research it if you want; it's real.  Every dope(by dope I mean opiate) head I've ever known LOVES cheese and milk.

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I don't much care if people want to be vegetarian or vegan, that's their choice BUT don't tell me what I should be doing. I love cheese (in particular Cheshire cheese) from when I was a kid - sugar was still on ration so no sweets, we were encouraged to drink milk because it helped us to avoid rickets (we also had daily doses of cod liver oil) but even though I love cheese, I've never even tried drugs - other than nicotine (stopped 17 years ago) and alcohol (stopped 7 years ago)

And keep in mind, just because you don't eat meat, it does not mean that no living beings are harmed in your food production. Unless harvested by hand, small mammals and insects will be scooped up by the harvester, and farmers will use various tactics to prevent 'vermin' destroying crops. 

 

"Over time, eating red meat, particularly raw flesh infected with parasites in the era before cooking, stimulates chronic inflammation, Finch explained. In response, humans apparently evolved unique variants in a cholesterol-transporting gene, apolipoprotein E, which regulates chronic inflammation as well as many aspects of aging in the brain and arteries."  Meat may be the Reason Humans outlive Apes. -  Charles Q Choi. So, the indications are that man was eating meat before learning to cook it. (If you want to read the article it's here http://www.nbcnews.com/id/34433388/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/meat-may-be-reason-humans-outlive-apes/#.XAV6W2j7TBU )

 

So basically, it's a matter of choice :) 

 

And if you have a milk allergy, it may be thanks to our Neanderthal ancestors - we still have at least some of their DNA

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1 hour ago, alienanteater said:

Sometimes I like to try to tell people that it's not just about animal cruelty, though, it's also the fact that meat is an economic and environmental drain. It takes way more grain production/grain use to feed and raise one cow than to give the same amount of calories straight from plants to a human. I say this because I don't think a lot of people realize it. The solution to this wouldn't necessarily need to be veganism, though. It would be much more economic and space efficient if we replaced the meat we typically eat here in the west with insects. I doubt that will happen anytime soon, though. If our species survives much longer, it may be necessary to do something like that. Our population is really getting too big to depend on meat to the extent a lot of people do.

 

In the end, its your decision what you eat. I personally don't think any less of you for it.

It takes 4 gallons of water to produce 0.25g of protein (almonds), some land may not be suitable for arable farming (the uplands of North of England, Scotland, Wales) which would revert to scrub land

 

But I completely agree with you - each to their own and if meat eaters would reduce the amount they consumed, if governments would subsidise organic farming at the same rate they do for standard farming practices then perhaps we could reduce the impact on the environment.

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Fractionally off-topic but in a way related. 

Homo Sapiens is an anomaly when it comes to lactose intolerance. All mammals tolerate lactose when newborn and suckling. Most other mammals, and some humans develop intolerance as part of the weaning process. 

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1 hour ago, Frankentan said:

I don't much care if people want to be vegetarian or vegan, that's their choice BUT don't tell me what I should be doing.

“I don’t care if people don’t want to shock collar their dogs, that’s their choice BUT don’t be telling me what I can and can’t do to my dog.”

 

”I don’t care if people don’t want to buy from companies that use sweatshops, that’s their choice BUT don’t tell me what I can’t buy.”

 

”I don’t care if people don’t want to litter, that’s their choice BUT don’t tell me what to do with my garbage.”

 

You see any issues with that attitude or do I have to explain further?

 

1 hour ago, Frankentan said:

And keep in mind, just because you don't eat meat, it does not mean that no living beings are harmed in your food production. Unless harvested by hand, small mammals and insects will be scooped up by the harvester, and farmers will use various tactics to prevent 'vermin' destroying crops. 

We can’t avoid all harm so we shouldn’t even bother trying to reduce it is what you’re saying?

 

1 hour ago, Frankentan said:

So, the indications are that man was eating meat before learning to cook it.

How is that relevant at all to the ethical decisions we make today?

 

1 hour ago, Frankentan said:

It takes 4 gallons of water to produce 0.25g of protein (almonds)

Guess it’s a good thing that it’s not necessary to eat almonds as a vegan then?

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1 hour ago, Zosia said:

You see any issues with that attitude or do I have to explain further?

I think you have really taken it to the extreme. Do you see eating eggs as equally evil as the human slavery practiced in sweatshops? Do you see destruction of the environment indiscriminately via littering akin to eating cheese?

1 hour ago, Zosia said:

We can’t avoid all harm so we shouldn’t even bother trying to reduce it is what you’re saying?

No, I think what he is saying is that living beings are harmed even by vegans, although certainly probably to a lesser degree.

1 hour ago, Zosia said:

How is that relevant at all to the ethical decisions we make today?

The relevant point is that humans are omnivores, set up to eat both animals and plants. Would you force a tiger to become vegan even though it was not set up for it? Would you force a chicken to become vegan even though it would receive an unbalanced diet as a result? You can debate whether we should move above our animal roots by limiting what we eat, but we as humans are omnivores.

2 hours ago, Zosia said:

Guess it’s a good thing that it’s not necessary to eat almonds as a vegan then?

I believe his point was that sometimes following what at first glance seems a better ethical path may cause other problems that maybe outweigh the advantages.

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On 12/3/2018 at 4:50 PM, Aebt said:

 

On 12/3/2018 at 2:45 PM, Zosia said:

You see any issues with that attitude or do I have to explain further?

I think you have really taken it to the extreme. Do you see eating eggs as equally evil as the human slavery practiced in sweatshops? Do you see destruction of the environment indiscriminately via littering akin to eating cheese?

Apparently I do have to explain further because my point wasn’t understood the first time around. I never said all of those situations were equal. I was making a point about that attitude behind them of “I’ll do whatever I feel like doing regardless of what harm it causes and you can’t tell me otherwise” which is a pretty despicable mindset. It’s incredibly unrealistic to expect people to not say anything to anybody about their harmful actions and just shrug their shoulders and say “Well, that’s your personal choice.” I’m not going to sit back twiddling my thumbs and allow something like that to pass.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 4:50 PM, Aebt said:

No, I think what he is saying is that living beings are harmed even by vegans, although certainly probably to a lesser degree.

So...I’m still not seeing the relevancy? What’s your point? You think vegans don’t know this?

 

On 12/3/2018 at 4:50 PM, Aebt said:

The relevant point is that humans are omnivores, set up to eat both animals and plants. Would you force a tiger to become vegan even though it was not set up for it? Would you force a chicken to become vegan even though it would receive an unbalanced diet as a result? You can debate whether we should move above our animal roots by limiting what we eat, but we as humans are omnivores.

No, it’s not relevant because we are not obligated to eat meat or other animal products. We can, we have the ability to, but that in no way necessitates that action nor does it make it morally excusable. And comparing obligate carnivores to human beings? Come on. Vegan diets done right can be very balanced.

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1 minute ago, Zosia said:

Vegan diets done right can be very balanced.

Certainly humans as vegans have a great benefit in that regard, but other omnivores not so much. That was my point, I never said vegan diets for humans were unsustainable, merely that some omnivores do not have the option of going vegan the way some humans do. And even some humans have medical conditions that would prevent them from going vegan.

5 minutes ago, Zosia said:

I was making a point about that attitude behind them of “I’ll do whatever I feel like doing regardless of what harm it causes and you can’t tell me otherwise”

But you were making that in response to someone saying that he doesn't care if anybody else it vegan or not, it wasn't like he was saying he was going to stand back when the holocaust happened.

7 minutes ago, Zosia said:

It’s incredibly unrealistic to expect people to not say anything to anybody about their harmful actions and just shrug their shoulders and say “Well, that’s your personal choice.”

Agreed, but the harm of non-vegans is not like they are single-handedly destroying the environment, killing millions, and endangering the earth. If you were arguing you should not sit back when the holocaust is happening then you have a point, and I care for animal welfare, but taking offense at

On 12/3/2018 at 1:55 PM, Frankentan said:

I don't much care if people want to be vegetarian or vegan, that's their choice BUT don't tell me what I should be doing.

then it seems quite militant, which will not help advance your cause but rather turn everyone away from helping to solve the underlying problems.

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Veganism is only possible in modern circumstances, there has never been a time other than in the past thirty years where you could have a wide enough range of pre-prepared fruit, vegetables, ect, to get all your basic nutrition. Britain for example has no natural fruiting trees, or bushes. It was an island of mean root vegetables, seaweed and nuts. The preparation required to make these edible took up more energy than the pulses could produce. So early Britain's had no option but to eat shellfood and other meats in order to live.

 

Admittedly we have not evolved to eat dairy products yet, and we maybe should eliminate milk and cheese from our diets. 

 

Soya milk sucks though.

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2 hours ago, Gizamaluke said:

Admittedly we have not evolved to eat dairy products yet, and we maybe should eliminate milk and cheese from our diets.

I don't know about that, there are some geographic areas which we had to in order to survive. Might we be great with them? No, but the Giant Panda is not efficient in eating bamboo either, but to live you do what you do.

 

(A devoted cheese fan speaking though, so I would be sad without my cheeses.)

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