vegan tells me I am an addict

[God of the Forest]

2 minutes ago, The Dryad said:

 fellow forest person

  Oh yeah I didnt think about that! haha! I have nymphs in my kingdom and I didnt even realize it! 

[The Dryad]

Just now, King of the Forest said:

  Oh yeah I didnt think about that! haha! I have nymphs in my kingdom and I didnt even realize it! 

XD, wow.

[ThaHoward]

4 minutes ago, King of the Forest said:

 lol if anyone was "attacked" in this thread it was me 

Yeah you were viciously attacked. If you really can't taken being corrected in a debate thread when you claim something as a fact - when it was false - and percieve it as attacks you should probally not partake. And it is really only you who have come with swear words and said others don't understand English.

[God of the Forest]

22 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

Yeah you were viciously attacked. If you really can't taken being corrected in a debate thread when you claim something as a fact - when it was false - and percieve it as attacks you should probally not partake. And it is really only you who have come with swear words and said others don't understand English.

  the use of quotation marks in the context of the statement you quoted of mine along with the laughing emoji would indicate I am using a word some else used and that I also didnt believe anyone was being attacked and that I'm not taking it seriously, hence "attacked" instead of attacked. And as I said, I was not making my statement in absolute terms hence the use of words like "pretty much", "almost" and "around". Note I never said you were wrong, in your claims, but nor was I, because my statement was very generalized which was the whole point of me using such words. And I was getting irritated because you were trying to correct a statement I made, repeatedly, when there wasnt really anything to correct because it wasnt meant to be taken as seriously as you were taking it lol. I'm sorry I lost my temper at you, that was wrong.

[Guest]

The word addiction gets thrown around far too easily. An actual addiction involves a physical and/or emotional/psychological dependency and withdrawal symptoms, it's a disorder of the reward system in the brain. People like to use it to mean plain old obsession, or impulse/craving, when obsessions tend to fade with time and impulse/cravings can be annoying but are much more easily overcome.

 

But well, vegans definitely have a reputation for being pushy. There used to be one in a group I'm in who posted on literally every post about meat and annoyed everyone. (In case it needs to be said, I'm not saying all vegans are like that. I've been friends with vegans too.)

[Perissodactyla]

This discussion thread and another recent thread, both related to veganism concepts-debate have renewed my interest/curiosity in the status/development of international laws regarding animal rights in relation to people's moral decision-making ability.

 

It's hard to ignore the weirdness of how people conceptualize 'meat'. It just stuns me how so many people don't take the time to examine their assumptions about what they eat and how it is produced, especially where there is suffering and pollution/destruction involved.

 

Also, it's bizarre to observe that many people seem to not include a moral perspective in thinking about their assumptions and behavior.

 

Before we come to the question of where it's considered moral or legal to condone or ban certain actions, I suppose we must know if the participants in a discussion have a basic understanding of ethics and moral decision making. I see that we can not assume this, so we may jump prematurely to asking is something moral or not, when the participants appear to have not really thought through the logic of distinguishing from right and wrong, especially in terms of accounting for suffering and injury. Sorry if I sound really self-righteous and condescending here, but I am. Hopefully, at least I strive to be patient, compassionate, humorous and pedagogical about it along the way. lol

 

I guess I'd like to make a list of animals that it's illegal to kill either because those animals are endangered/protected or because there is moral outrage within a society at their being killed for food.

 

Killing humans is obviously illegal everywhere, so that's a starting point. I guess I'm wondering what the next species is that is universally protected and if there is an expected order/priority in protecting more and more species from being killed. Going step by step seems to be a way forward.

 

The case of dogs really catches my attention and inspires me. It seems absurd to defend the killing of dogs for food, obviously.

And it seems absurd to abhor killing dogs for food, but accept killing other animals, just because we are conditioned to not be disgusted by it.

 

So this is a practical starting point for me, since I think that conveying this concept is very productive towards encouraging more and more people to think this through in their own speed, as it should be, ideally. But people need to be nudged, also.

 

Maybe there should be a new thread about this, which is more 'preaching to the choir' sort of thing, instead of these endless embarrassing debates that go nowhere practical, in my opinion.

 

I also think it's a bit relevant to mention how asexuality and veganism have some common attitudes and concepts, but i won't go into that right now.

 

[Guest]

I really wouldn't care if people had to stop eating meat (though I love meat and it would take some shuffling to take it out of my diet), where I put up a fuss is when owning carnivorous pets and then feeding them a vegan diet. That can actually harm them and lead to malnutrition and disease, even if not right away. Dogs are one thing, though they still need meat to be at their healthiest, but cats for example are obligate carnivores. (Though I will admit to it being difficult for me to watch my cat torture live animals such as lizards before eating them. He will stomp on them, jump on them, toss them into the air, bite their limbs off while they are obviously still alive, etc.)

Or, pet snakes. Ferrets. These are also carnivores. Some snakes even need to given live prey or they refuse to eat.

[Perissodactyla]

18 minutes ago, humantoafault said:

The word addiction gets thrown around far too easily. An actual addiction involves a physical and/or emotional/psychological dependency and withdrawal symptoms, it's a disorder of the reward system in the brain. People like to use it to mean plain old obsession, or impulse/craving, when obsessions tend to fade with time and impulse/cravings can be annoying but are much more easily overcome.

 

But well, vegans definitely have a reputation for being pushy. There used to be one in a group I'm in who posted on literally every post about meat and annoyed everyone. (In case it needs to be said, I'm not saying all vegans are like that. I've been friends with vegans too.)

Thanks for discussing the concept of addiction in relation to the regular and habitual consumption of meat.

 

I have to think about that longer before I address it myself, but I've been wondering about it as I try to understand the nature of repetitive behavior which is also normative and policing of others to conform and obey these habits.

 

I don't know if pushy people are drawn to veganism or if veganism brings out the pushiness in people. lol

But I can say that I haven't been a normative vegan for a very long time because I've been so alienated by the militancy I've observed up close. Since I do understand the framework and reasoning behind the militant-reasoning, I'm also embarrassed at how un-strategic and alienating it is in its mostly failed pedagogical project.

 

 

[Perissodactyla]

20 minutes ago, humantoafault said:

I really wouldn't care if people had to stop eating meat (though I love meat and it would take some shuffling to take it out of my diet), where I put up a fuss is when owning carnivorous pets and then feeding them a vegan diet. That can actually harm them and lead to malnutrition and disease, even if not right away. Dogs are one thing, though they still need meat to be at their healthiest, but cats for example are obligate carnivores. (Though I will admit to it being difficult for me to watch my cat torture live animals such as lizards before eating them. He will stomp on them, jump on them, toss them into the air, bite their limbs off while they are obviously still alive, etc.)

Or, pet snakes. Ferrets. These are also carnivores. Some snakes even need to given live prey or they refuse to eat.

I receive a lot of inspiration thinking about animal behavior, which reminds me of my 'animal-ness' in contrast with my concept of being an animal/primate/mammal.

 

I spend a lot of time in nature, often away from civilization, so I often return to a feeling that nature is a huge restaurant where I do not want to be on the menu. Psychically, i sense that other animals can vibe me out as a non-predator. The feeling that we are friends and not threats to each other produces a peaceful heart and very interesting subtle exchanges... which are sometimes borderline 'paranormal' or whatever. Mystical. Meaningful. Weird!

 

I am very fond of dogs and I like snakes. I would own at least one snake, but I can't because i could never feed it a baby mouse pinky.

Too bad, since snakes are so primordial or something.

 

When I'm in nature or at the zoo, I find myself gravitating to the herbivores. Last weekend I made a couple of videos of a bison in a wildlife refuge in Oklahoma and also some cute prairie dogs. I really like observing and filming wild animals. They have so much to teach!

 

Witchita Mountains wildlife refuge, Oklahoma

 

Bison!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfKKkJTRctg

 

Prairie Dogs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFTb0RRmOZg

 

At about the same time, the NYTimes published an interesting biology article proposing that prairie dogs have a language! lol

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/12/magazine/can-prairie-dogs-talk.html

 

[ThaHoward]

2 hours ago, Zosia said:

You're talking about this comment, ThaHoward?

Yes, and I took no offense. Just wanted to point out that people eating meat are not stupid, and its not immoral in itself.

[Zosia]

@euco The way you explain things is very impressive and level-headed, in my opinion.  Just thought I would let you know. I often find myself struggling to explain these concepts properly, but you do a very good job of it.

[Perissodactyla]

16 minutes ago, Zosia said:

@euco The way you explain things is very impressive and level-headed, in my opinion.  Just thought I would let you know. I often find myself struggling to explain these concepts properly, but you do a very good job of it.

Well, thank you! You and @The Dryad deserve a lot of the credit, since your calm, kind and respectful reasoning sort of inspired and encouraged me to say much more than I otherwise might have said, if anything. What you guys wrote in the other veganism thread really got me thinking and re-evaluating a lot of my assumptions and conclusions in light of the references and statements you both made. So thanks for the inspirations.

 

These topics are extremely meaningful and foundational to the experience of joy in everyday life, of course, and I just now realized there are a lot of new ways of looking at it, as well as new opportunities to formulate questions, communication and strategies towards accomplishing some achievable answers as small steps towards accomplishing various ambitious goals.

 

[The Dryad]

I'm not exactly a "militant" vegan, I know on the other post it sparked some strong reactions when I said I like Peta (XD) and how I feel about animal freedom, and I'm also idealistic over realistic, it's kinda the way I am, although I acknowledge realism... Peta is weird for me, I know they do bad things, and they do good things, but I see them as a means of spreading veganism- I know of other vegan "clubs" (lol) or groups like The Vegan Society (they were who I used when I first started being vegetarian and vegan), but Peta had a lot more relevant news and sources for what I was looking for at the time. But I'm also not a staunch supporter of Peta, XD, I'm pretty aloof towards all of them, but I appreciate the labeling both The Vegan Society and Peta do for products though.

 

But I'm also not a moderate vegan, I became vegetarian and vegan because I love animals and I felt that if I didn't stop eating them and their products, I was a hypocrite, I've felt that way since I was little, and suffered under a lot of guilt. If I'm moderate in my ideals, then what's to stop me from bowing down to what I originally identified as evil? Especially in this meat eating culture who doesn't want to listen to "preachy vegans". I don't think I've ever out right told anyone I'm vegan unless they asked me first, and everything is fine and dandy until I begin to mention my morals and why I think there's no "hierarchy" in the animal kingdom, and every animal has the right to live however they want. I think a lot of meat eaters experience some sort of guilt and that's why they become so defensive on animal rights, there's no argument against animal rights unless you consider the sense of self-employed because you don't want to "deny" the self, one would rather kill animals to eat their flesh, their blood, their anxiety, their diseases, their sadness, their suffering. And as for the argument of plants being sentient, I think that's true as well, trees are amazing in their caring for each other and communication- but you don't have to "kill" anything as a vegan, eat leaves without killing the plant, eat seeds, eat beans, eat fruit-replant the seed, in my opinion humans are "fruit" eaters, even the Bible says it.

[Perissodactyla]

1 hour ago, The Dryad said:

I think a lot of meat eaters experience some sort of guilt and that's why they become so defensive on animal rights,

I think this is really true. It makes me wonder what methods of communication to use for different people based on discerning how each person responds to what one is trying to present to them... in a way that they have time to think about it instead of reacting against their perception that they're threatened, accused and judged by what one has to convey to them.

 

Thanks for describing the background to your developing view. There are some points of influence for you that I share also.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_an_Animal    was a bit inspiring to me, as were several documentaries about the treatment of animals.

And as you point out, the Bible and other scriptures strongly recommend plants as food for those who aspire to be virtuous.

Those texts and their commentaries and interpretations in living traditions have really served as huge inspirations to me in a very deep way.

 

I confess that I became rather frustrated and kind of burned out from all the conversations i used to have with people about these topics, so i eventually just gave up and turned my attention towards focusing on maintaining my health and encouraging others to not neglect being healthy. In some ways this orientation is a bit cowardly, I admit, and also a bit materialistic, tedious and boring, .... focusing on sources of nutrients such as calcium, iron, B12, etc. which perhaps you can get purely from plants, but it's easier using plant-source supplements just to be on the safe side. Deficiency happens slowly over years, which is not obvious at all during the first few years of being vegan.

 

I personally became a fruitarian and raw foodist before I became vegan. So what you said about eating fruit was my first guiding logic which immediately persuaded me that this was both the yummiest and most loving way to consuming fuel offered by nature. Obviously! Yay!

 

Eventually I learned to expand my understanding of what plants contained which nutrients, so that it was easier to modulate repair of tissues in my body in relation to choices of sources of amino acids, lipids, carbs, etc.

 

Since I feel infinitely healthier and lighter and happier being vegan, I know by now that the claims made occasionally by meat-eaters that meat is necessary for health are defensive distortions and outright lies. However, I've also learned to shield myself from relapsing into frustration and sadness by futile arguments with defensive people, obviously guilt-ridden by their lack of compassion or honest thoughtfulness.

 

And at the same time, I strive to maintain a certain level of skepticism and scientific attitude regarding my vegan assumptions, since I know that each individual is entitled to come to their own conclusions about what they believe their body needs to be healthy and strong. So when people say there is something in meat or eggs or dairy that they NEED, I just mostly accept this, wondering what it is that they actually need, if anything. Or is it a psycho-physiological attachment and assumption? I don't really know for sure! And each individual's body may need different things according to their DNA or whatever. But at least they deserve a personal choice and final say, of course... so I don't push it. Well, I don't even care! lol

 

 

"Dog meat is the flesh and other edible parts derived from dogs. Historically, human consumption of dog meat has been recorded in many parts of the world, including East and Southeast Asia, West Africa, Europe, Oceania and the Americas.^[2] In the 21st century, dog meat is consumed in many parts of China,^[3]Korea,^[4] and Vietnam.^[5]

 

Today, some cultures view the consumption of dog meat as part of their traditional and day-to-day cuisine, while other cultures consider consumption of dog meat a taboo, although they have been consumed in times of war or other hardships.^[6][7] It was estimated in 2014 that worldwide, 25 million dogs are eaten each year by humans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_meat

 

 

Here's a comedy tv show clip dealing with the issue of a culture that is conditioned to view dogs as a form of meat to be consumed as food:

Warning! It could be regarded as racist, since it focuses on a Korean florist / caterer who shows keen interest in a pet dog that goes missing at the time of a luncheon catered by the Korean florist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR6d67O6478

 

 

 

 

[ThaHoward]

Nope I feel no guilt at all  I think the whole "meat eaters are defensive" is an attitude of yours. I couldn't care less if you think meat eating is immoral or not. 

[Guest]

I do think the meat industry needs to treat their animals better. I am very much an animal lover. (Though my largest animal obsession is dogs, and everyone who knows me knows this.)

I used to raw feed my dogs and semi-raw feed my cat, usually bought meat from the store, sometimes frozen feeder mice from the pet store. (Still do the frozen feeder mice for my cat, and I want to raw feed him, but finances and health concerns are keeping him on canned food for now.) Was in a group of raw feeders, many of whom where the actual people themselves were on vegetarian diets and so far as what they bought for their animals made sure to only buy organic, free range, and the like. Though me being on the poorer side of things, I could never afford to go the extra mile for cruelty-free meat (or as cruelty free as feasibly doable).

 

I've never been terribly involved in the vegetarian/vegan discussion, though I am familiar with some of it since I have had online friends from practically all walks of life who were involved in those discussions on the social media sites we shared. Since I used to rawfeed my dogs, occasionally I'd share pictures of their meals, one in particular told me they felt that it was disrespectful to share pictures of a dead animal being consumed even if they didn't have a problem with my feeding my pets a natural diet. I don't feel I did anything wrong, but I did and still do respect their beliefs and stopped posting the pictures outside of the raw feeding groups I was in.

[PynchMe]

As a vegan, I am here to tell you that you can do whatever you want. I promise to not talk about food with you and honestly wish you wouldn't try to talk about food with me unless it is for strictly non-persuasive, non-emotional, informative reasons. Feel free to also substitute the word vegan with atheist and the word food with the word God.

[Dudette]

To be honest, I do not like "vegans", "vegetarians", "meat eaters", etc.

I think everyone should be allowed to eat what they like. Many vegans and vegetarians show me pictures of slaughter houses and tell me "what do you think?", and each time I want to tell them I worked at slaughter house, and I still eat meat, and I am not against it (because of my ethics). I tried to tell people its ok to be vegan and its ok to be meat-eater. (its ok to have different ethics when it comes to meat productions and meat eating, etc.).

But each time I try to explain this, vegans and meat eaters ignore me and tell me that "there is only one true way", but there is not (never will be and never was).

The worse part of vegans vs meat eaters is the fact that (at least in my case), vegans treat me like shit, they tell me mean things. As a exchange student I used to live with vegans family, they would starve me (not giving me any food, no vegan, no meat, nothing) because they wanted to see if by starving me, I would change my ethics when it comes to meat eating and meat production. (I didn't and I changed the family ).

 

What I am trying to say is that we should be more respectful of different ethics and life styles.

There is no "one" right answer. There are many. Now go ahead and banned/report me for saying that we should respect different ethics and saying that we should not treat some ethics as "wrong" just because it is different from your ethics.

[Perissodactyla]

1 hour ago, Dudette said:

Many vegans and vegetarians show me pictures of slaughter houses and tell me "what do you think?", and each time I want to tell them I worked at slaughter house, and I still eat meat, and I am not against it (because of my ethics). I tried to tell people its ok to be vegan and its ok to be meat-eater. (its ok to have different ethics when it comes to meat productions and meat eating, etc.).

Well, it's very interesting to learn that you worked in a slaughter house and that you find it ethical.

 

I have nothing more to say.

 

[Philip027]

"Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!"

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Interesting note, cows, deer and other 'obligate herbivores' do actually hunt and kill things.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/when-herbivores-arent-poor-chicken-got-eaten-cow-180951115/

[ThaHoward]

Cows kill relativly speaking many humans actually.

[Dudette]

1 hour ago, euco said:

Well, it's very interesting to learn that you worked in a slaughter house and that you find it ethical.

 

I have nothing more to say.

 

it is normal, many animals kill animals (sometimes very brutally, like eating it alive).

This is the point with ethics (I find it normal for humans to kill animals for food. "slaughtering animals" is the new modern way of killing animals for food, also remember that slaughtering is the term for "process of systematic killing many animals to feed many people").

Also my mother is from farming family, so as a kid I saw my grandmother cutting of a chicken's head, and preparing the chicken to be eaten, and for example I saw my grandmother's cat which was eating alive mouse (well literally ate the half of the mouse while keeping the other half alive)

But some people find it wrong to kill animals for food. Both ways are correct. 

Actually, Both ethics originated from Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Hellenism/etc. (killing animals for food is ethical) and Hinduism/Buddhism/etc. (killing animals for food is not ethical).

 

This is the reason why we should respect each other, and not hate just because of ethics, religion, economical class, sexuality, race, body-type, diet, personality, etc. (yes, you can argue that you can change your ethics, religion, economical class (some people claim it is possible to change your sexuality, race, body-type and personality), but life is short, and we are supposed to do what makes us happy (as long as it does not literally or directly harm another human),  and not what makes other people happy).

[Perissodactyla]

I am really interested and appreciative to read more about your view. I respect you position, even if i personally don't understand your conclusions. But I remember when I had a similar view and could not understand the opposing opinions of others. I think a lot about what you and others like you say about this topic, and I try to take a wider understanding beyond fighting for a cherished sense of justice and avoiding self-righteous aggression against positions I don't understand or accept.

 

I personally feel that many vegans do a disservice to their goals of increasing non-violence and reduction of harm to living things.

I sometimes wonder if some vegans are under-nourished predators who actually stalk and consider killing their victims ---> those whose personal ethics they dislike and enjoy fighting against. There is a certain kind of aggression among some vegans that tarnishes the brand of veganism and non-violence, in my opinion. I could say a lot about this topic with examples and a philosophical context, but I won't do that here.

 

On the other hand, I find myself wondering about very bizarre propositions sometimes such as 'why is it wrong to kill humans for food?'

Just posing this question seems crazy, but I woke up this morning wondering why everyone agrees that killing humans is a bad idea, but killing other intelligent mammals, even those who clearly show social and emotional qualities, is sanctioned as okay. It just seems weird.

 

I have relatives who are farmers and who keep livestock for dairy and meat production, so I've experienced that whole scene up close many times. My farming relatives are also skilled and experienced hunters who are very expert with guns and bow and arrow hunting, mostly for deer and elk. The grew up in the country where there is not that much to do that's interesting, so one thing they often like to do is go out for target practice by shooting random birds and rodents or whatever. When I first witnessed that when I was very young, it made a big impression on me.

 

My relatives who are the most skilled hunters are also skilled butchers, since often they have to skin and cut up the animal on the spot if they want to take it home... assuming they are hunting in a prime wilderness area that has elk, moose, deer or whatever they want to stalk and kill and eat.

 

I know that if I had grown up closer to my relatives (they live in North and South Dakota) and I live in California, I am certain that I would now also be an experienced hunter and consumer of animal flesh. Maybe not, but I just assume it's more of the norm to hunt when you live out in the country. One has a different view of the position of animals, as you got me to think about just now. And I think those people who haven't lived out in the the farming country away from 'town', have a difficulty in relating and empathizing with 'farming' and 'hunting' 'ethics'.

 

I used to go fishing a lot with my family as a child and it was fun, but the older I got, the more I became disgusted by how gross and cruel it is, even though I ate the fish with enjoyment. My father always cleaned the fish, since he didn't want us to see the horror of them suffocating, getting their heads cut off and their guts pulled out with the fingers. When I first did actually witness that, it also made a big impression on me which sunk in deeply.

 

I have a lot of respect for people who kill their own food. While I do think it's avoidable, unnecessary and wrong, I also do basically agree that humans are killer-monkeys who adapted to gathering more and more plants and plant-knowledge and later becoming farmers.

 

I suppose that the basic aggression that appears hard-wired into humans as killer-apes is a difficult species-identity-reflection to cope with! lol

 

If you've seen the movie 2001, a Space Odyssey, there is a very interesting depiction of human evolution at the beginning of the film, which I really recommend seeing! I won't spoil it here, but just see it and maybe we can discuss it.

 

Okay, that's enough from me for now. I'm going to the local farmer's market now stalk to some organic vegetables for sale. LOL

 

 

[Dudette]

41 minutes ago, euco said:

1)On the other hand, I find myself wondering about very bizarre propositions sometimes such as 'why is it wrong to kill humans for food?'

Just posing this question seems crazy, but I woke up this morning wondering why everyone agrees that killing humans is a bad idea, but killing other intelligent mammals, even those who clearly show social and emotional qualities, is sanctioned as okay. It just seems weird.

 

 

2)I have a lot of respect for people who kill their own food. While I do think it's avoidable, unnecessary and wrong, I also do basically agree that humans are killer-monkeys who adapted to gathering more and more plants and plant-knowledge and later becoming farmers.

 

 

 

1) before classical religions like hellenism/zoroastrainism/judaism/hinduism

According to Archaeologists, people did eat people in cases like eating your enemies (like gorillas nowadays).

This ethics of "it is wrong to eat another human" comes from animal kingdom. Animals do not eat animals from the same species (except some species like gorillas and huskies, but in cases like starvation(huskies) or not wasting proteins(gorillas))

 

Furthermore, I know one instance when cannibalism accorded in one whole ethnic group.

It was during the Ukrainian genocide (1932-1933), basically Stalin wanted to reduced the Ukrainians, so he exported the whole livestocks, grain, crops, etc. from Ukraine.

And many Ukrainian decided to eat their children to survival the genocide.

 

2)Killing your own food ended somewhere around 6000BC (first civilization), it was more beneficial to have 50% of people as farmers and 50% as non farmers.

Nowadays, we are able to have 10 people feeding around 100 000 people.

 

Maybe someday in the future, it will be cheaper to eat "fake meat" which is not made of soy (soy is bad for men). But for average consumer like myself when I look at vegan food which is not made of soybean, it is a lot more expensive (ironically food made of soybeans is still alot more expensive, for example soy milk cost 10$ and milk is 2$). I know alot of vegans who make their own tofu and their own soy milk etc. etc. etc. which I heard it is cheaper solution

But as a student I do not have the time and I am not interested in "killing my own vegan food".

The best example is this friend who didn't pass any semester for 4 years now because he literally doesn't have time to study because most of the day he is in the kitchen making the organic vegan food . (I cannot dedicate my whole life to food. Most of the time, I dedicate it to college and some engineering projects of mine).

[Zosia]

@Dudette Where does soy milk cost $10? I live in the middle of cattle country and it only costs around $3-$4 here. There's also really no reason to have to spend hours a day cooking expensive, organic four-course vegan meals. That seems to be one of the misconceptions of veganism--that it's inherently more expensive and time consuming. I'm a student, too, but I don't spend that much on groceries. And how difficult and expensive is it to make ramen, PB&J sandwiches, burritos, oatmeal, and spaghetti? There are guides online that can help people wanting to go vegan but are dealing with certain circumstances. Look up "Vegan on a Budget", "Vegan for $5 a Day", "Vegan Under the Poverty Line", "Vegan on Food Stamps", "Vegan in College", etc.

[Dudette]

1 hour ago, Zosia said:

@Dudette Where does soy milk cost $10? I live in the middle of cattle country and it only costs around $3-$4 here. There's also really no reason to have to spend hours a day cooking expensive, organic four-course vegan meals. That seems to be one of the misconceptions of veganism--that it's inherently more expensive and time consuming. I'm a student, too, but I don't spend that much on groceries. And how difficult and expensive is it to make ramen, PB&J sandwiches, burritos, oatmeal, and spaghetti? There are guides online that can help people wanting to go vegan but are dealing with certain circumstances. Look up "Vegan on a Budget", "Vegan for $5 a Day", "Vegan Under the Poverty Line", "Vegan on Food Stamps", "Vegan in College", etc.

yea, but soy milk does cost more than regular milk. (in most of the case upto 4 times more (where I used to live) or where I currently live 6 times more).

I agree that you can live like this, and be happy. How difficult and expensive is to make my favorite meal (oatmeal+milk+cottage cheese and greek or balkan yogurt as a snack+fishoil with PB for extra brain energy )?

The problem is that people look at you and ask you questions like "can you cook?", "how can you eat this shit?", etc.

Nowadays, people want to spend more and more money and time on food and eating. (they want to make some kind of most visually beautiful, tasteful and organic meal 4-6 times a day). Something which at the end, you have to poop out, and it looks like shit. 

I have noticed that this is most popular among vegans (they are prepare to fail semester just to prepare fully organic vegan food 4-6 times a day)

[Zosia]

13 hours ago, Dudette said:

But some people find it wrong to kill animals for food. Both ways are correct.

I'm curious to know how something could possibly be both morally permissible and morally wrong at the same time...

 

13 hours ago, Dudette said:

This is the reason why we should respect each other, and not hate just because of ethics, religion, economical class, sexuality, race, body-type, diet, personality, etc. (yes, you can argue that you can change your ethics, religion, economical class (some people claim it is possible to change your sexuality, race, body-type and personality), but life is short, and we are supposed to do what makes us happy (as long as it does not literally or directly harm another human),  and not what makes other people happy).

Someone can respect another person while also fundamentally disagreeing with a belief that they hold or an action that they participate in. Disagreeing does not equal disrespecting. And it also doesn't imply hating on the other person when one raises these scruples in a discussion. And I would also disagree that life is solely or mainly about our own personal self-gratification, even at the expense of others (like animals). I would really like to know why only human beings' interests shouldn't be trampled on, and animals' interests aren't given much of any consideration at all? Why does taste, convenience, and habit override any interest that the animal might have in preserving its own life and avoiding harm?

 

8 hours ago, Dudette said:

The problem is that people look at you and ask you questions like "can you cook?", "how can you eat this shit?", etc.

If people are complaining about how another person's meal looks, or how it's not expensive enough, or how not enough time was put into preparing it--that's their problem, not yours.

 

8 hours ago, Dudette said:

Nowadays, people want to spend more and more money and time on food and eating. (they want to make some kind of most visually beautiful, tasteful and organic meal 4-6 times a day). Something which at the end, you have to poop out, and it looks like shit. 

I have noticed that this is most popular among vegans (they are prepare to fail semester just to prepare fully organic vegan food 4-6 times a day)

If this was something that was really popular with vegans, that would be news to me. I really doubt that the average vegan is making expensive, organic meals 4-6 times per day. Just because you knew one person who did that, doesn't mean everybody does. Again, I'm going to say that this isn't anything inherent to veganism. Some vegans like to cook, others don't. Veganism doesn't require a person to spend all their life in the kitchen. And also (just to throw this out there), just because social media might be filled with pictures of colorful, organic, expensive vegan meals (I'm looking at you, Instagram), doesn't mean that the majority of vegans eat that way, either. If we're talking about social media, many people (regardless of whether or not they eat animal products) like posting pictures of their fancy meals (and their kids, and cats, and vacation photos). It's just a symptom of social media for people to want their lives to look perfect and enviable. Again, these kinds of fancy food porn photos on social media have nothing to do with veganism and aren't an accurate representation of vegans.

 

EDIT: You know what, I'm also going to add something else here that I just thought of. You talk of this person as if they are obsessive and committed-to-a-fault to the "cause" of veganism, which is why they sacrificed their education to be able to be some purist vegan in the kitchen. How do know that it wasn't something else that caused them to fail the semester? For instance, when I'm extremely stressed about school projects, I procrastinate so much and end up wasting my time doing something else (like cleaning) instead of working on homework because I dread it so much. It doesn't mean that I'm obsessed with cleaning and have some warped view of having to have everything perfect around me, otherwise I'm not "pure enough". How do you know this person didn't do the same with their cooking? Maybe they were just so overwhelmed with school or they had some other problems they were dealing with? Seems more likely since they failed semester after semester, don't you think?

[XYZ96]

10 hours ago, Zosia said:

I'm curious to know how something could possibly be both morally permissible and morally wrong at the same time...

[...]

well, because morality isn't really an objective thing, it's very subjective, and changes from time period to time period, from culture to culture and from person to person... so most things are both morally permissible and wrong at the same time (though somethings are more universal then others)... 

in all honesty, most morals (or actual all morals) are opinions... and it's basically saying, my opinion isn't wrong, neither is yours, they're just different and we don't agree... 

[Dudette]

11 hours ago, Zosia said:

I'm curious to know how something could possibly be both morally permissible and morally wrong at the same time...

Because people have different ethics.

Actually a lot of things are both wrong and right at the same time.

If you read some philosophers or even religious books (Hindu vs Christian) you will notice that they contradict each other when it comes to ethics.

 

11 hours ago, Zosia said:

EDIT: You know what, I'm also going to add something else here that I just thought of. You talk of this person as if they are obsessive and committed-to-a-fault to the "cause" of veganism, which is why they sacrificed their education to be able to be some purist vegan in the kitchen. How do know that it wasn't something else that caused them to fail the semester? For instance, when I'm extremely stressed about school projects, I procrastinate so much and end up wasting my time doing something else (like cleaning) instead of working on homework because I dread it so much. It doesn't mean that I'm obsessed with cleaning and have some warped view of having to have everything perfect around me, otherwise I'm not "pure enough". How do you know this person didn't do the same with their cooking? Maybe they were just so overwhelmed with school or they had some other problems they were dealing with? Seems more likely since they failed semester after semester, don't you think?

Because I tried to help him to pass a semester (I would teach him after class, I did all the assignments by myself (we were in the same group)), but he would just cook and eat all day. I tried to tell him that he doesn't have to cook the most organic food, and education is also important, and it would be helpful if he could help me with the assignments, but then I would have to listen for hours about how the Jews and Armenians are running the food corporations and putting hormones in everything, how much people are addicted to meat and people who eat meat are stupid, and the organic vegan diet is solution for everything (world peace, starvation, class struggle, etc).