vegan tells me I am an addict

[defeatedcreek]

I'm a non-preachy vegan.  You have to make these decisions on your own.  I don't know what your friend was getting at. 

[ThaHoward]

I'm just too glad in meat to not eat it I tried tofu food several times, and other vegan food, it is OK. Buut its just that, and not great. Its like oats, its dull, but edible.

[Amnesiac]

Tofu is rank! Saying that though, I had a vegan pizza the other week and it was outstanding! 

[The Dryad]

Wow, there are so many things I could correct on here, but arguing will just run my blood pressure up, and I'm not about that life anymore.

[Perissodactyla]

I feel that for many vegans who are new to veganism, it is a sort of rite of passage to be normative, preachy and militant ... but this attitude eventually wears off... for most vegans. But the wearing off process may take years.

 

It's a rare thing for a person to honestly examine their assumptions about Anything. I don't know why some do and most don't.

 

I just figure that most people are like robots and continue on in their cultural programming, repeating the attitudes and behaviors of mommy and daddy, and their cherished tribe. Culture is not your friend, if you consider yourself to be an honest, independent, critically thinking person.

 

For those that do examine their assumptions honestly and commit to different behavior outside of their social norm, there is a temptation to try to persuade others to make a similar self-examination which emphasizes logic, honesty and ethics. But people are mostly not logical, honest or ethical, so a preachy person eventually realizes that their expectations of the goal of persuading others is impractical and leads to frustration, sadness and alienation.

 

Human beings are mostly really cruel. I feel that I am also really cruel and aggressive at heart if I express my veganism in a combative style. I've met plenty of preachy vegans who come across as borderline violent and self-righteous fanatics. And while I understand their view, I feel that it works against people coming to their own uncoerced honest self-examination when they are ready for it.

 

On the other hand, there is a little thrill when one occasionally observes other people squirm when they realize you're a dedicated vegan. It's a bit amusing, but it's a bit twisted and sadistic to notice oneself take pleasure in being perceived as earth police for animal rights.

 

Beyond food ethics, processes of industrialization, organization and civilization are inherently destructive to nature and humanity. What's wrong with extinction? Humans are good at it. It all started with agriculture and storing surplus harvests in emerging cities! Yay, farming!

 

It's reasonable to assume that humans are bent on the extinction of life on this planet including themselves. So awareness of food ethics has a darker awareness that mindless cruelty, pollution, waste, exploitation and destruction permeate all aspects of everyday life. If you love technology as I do, you must admit that technology is inherently destructive to nature, if you contemplate all the processes that go into making that cherished smart-phone or laptop or transportation-vehicle. It's all poison and death to life and it's all accelerating.

 

If you don't think about this, it's easier to live life and avoid these preachy battles which mostly lead nowhere. The arguments about the ethics of food and treatment of animals is just the tip of the dystopian iceberg.

 

Humans kill. Humans devour. Humans destroy. Humans are not loving creatures. They are predators, even parasites, and take pleasure in causing suffering. I accept this situation as a vegan, and I don't think it's possible to change the situation short of enforcing laws that equate animal butchery with murder and genocide. Since this project is attractive but insane, I have let it go mostly. lol

 

I suppose I believe that people who choose to eat meat are digging their own graves, so there is a little justice in that.

And I sometimes fantasize that each person after they die will have to confront all the animals who they caused to suffer.

Maybe then each meat-eater will realize what they have done so thoughtlessly.

 

 

 

[God of the Forest]

On 4/29/2017 at 4:40 PM, Dudette said:

So, I was talking to this friend who started telling me that he was addicted to meat, and suddenly the conversation went into this cult/matrix conversation which I didn't enjoy.

Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan.

I tried to explain to him that each person has different ethics (some people find it wrong to eat meat for ethical reasons), and also (at least in my case, economically) vegan food is a lot more expensive than non-vegan food; however, dairy food is cheaper than meat; thus, I eat mostly dairy food. But he just told me that I am too stupid to realize the truth.

 

am I crazy if I think people should be allowed to choose what they eat?

Or you think eating should be restricted by laws, and people should have not right to choose what they want to eat?

 

It sounds like your friend needs to read up on his science and history because its pretty much a fact that humans started eating meat around the same time we discovered fire..so yeah he needs to back up and chill out, no offense to your friend

[Anthracite_Impreza]

@euco; Jesus, I thought I was misanthropic but even I'm not that bad.

[Skycaptain]

My opinion here, Homo sapiens evolved to be hunter gatherers. This is why we have teeth which are a combination of those required to tear into meat and grind vegetable matter. Whilst our gastrointestinal system is more that of carnivores (one stomach no coprophagia etc) we still retain a vestigial appendix. This gives us the ability to survive with a predominantly meat diet such as Inuit, and those who live on a predominantly vegetarian diet such as in India. 

In more affluent societies some people are fortunate enough to be able to select a diet according to moral viewpoint, personal preference etc as opposed to simply what is available. 

[Perissodactyla]

1 hour ago, Skycaptain said:

My opinion here, Homo sapiens evolved to be hunter gatherers. This is why we have teeth which are a combination of those required to tear into meat and grind vegetable matter. Whilst our gastrointestinal system is more that of carnivores (one stomach no coprophagia etc) we still retain a vestigial appendix. This gives us the ability to survive with a predominantly meat diet such as Inuit, and those who live on a predominantly vegetarian diet such as in India. 

In more affluent societies some people are fortunate enough to be able to select a diet according to moral viewpoint, personal preference etc as opposed to simply what is available. 

I'm mostly willing to accept that humans are omnivorous and adapted to eat whatever they can find or have the will to produce through planning and effort. Since eating is fundamental to our social and environmental awareness, I think our moral awareness evolved along the way, not just later when we became affluent enough to be selective with our preferences and personal choices.

 

It's a bit romantic using the term 'hunter-gatherer', since it's a survival mode of behavior which likely also includes eating disgusting things from time to time, including other humans, when food is scarce. Perhaps some humans evolved as human predators long ago. It's very interesting that that would disgust us now. And it's interesting what that says about our instincts, morality and deeply ingrained sense of what is forbidden/taboo. It's also interesting that we don't extend the same disgust to the exploitation of other animals out of a feeling of wide solidarity, especially with vertebrates and especially mammals... with whom we share a lot in common. Eating other mammals is a kind of cannibalism, biologically, I would suggest.

 

Pretty much everyone agrees that cannibalism is disgusting and wrong, and that eating certain loved animals such as dogs, horses and cats is disgusting and wrong. I think it's possible for people to prefer to starve than to kill and eat other humans or animals that we either love or find otherwise disgusting to eat. But it's hard to know any facts about how humans or proto-humans behaved hundreds of thousands of years ago, of course.

 

Today we do indeed have the advantage to be moral and intelligent, so it's just baffling why some people would rationalize continuing to be in hunter-gatherer mode, eating anything that one felt like eating, regardless of the moral dimension. I am not saying that you were saying this, but you made me think that some others would make this claim and do.

 

 

I guess I personally have an evolutionary fantasy that my origin is a hybrid between an interstellar geneticist alien interacting with an ape to produce early versions leading to homo sapiens. It's not that far fetched, especially as humans are soon able to make these kinds of experiments themselves without alien scientific interventions.

 

So I can't help wonder what an interstellar civilization would regard as food if it has advanced technologies and understanding of DNA and biomolecular software engineering. Maybe they don't need to eat. Maybe they consume very energy-efficient substances which do not require growing organisms for exploitation and destruction. It seems to make sense that this is possible. Who knows? *shrug*

 

Maybe the intuition and impulse to eat in a gentle, loving, harmonious, non-exploitative way is part of a memory or an anticipation of a future way that the human organism will evolve into functioning as we turn our attention to the planets and stars eventually.

 

Just musing out loud now. lol

 

[Skycaptain]

@euco. Thank you for a well thought out and coherently expressed counterpoint. Big respect 

 

My opinion is that we are driven to eat protein, whether this comes from cannibalism, omnivores or vegan ( vegetarianism) is a moot point. I will quite happily accept that vegetable protein can supply enough for us to thrive. One of the benefits of living in a science based society is that people are more likely to be aware of minimum nutritional intake and adjust their diet accordingly 

[Perissodactyla]

11 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

@euco. Thank you for a well thought out and coherently expressed counterpoint. Big respect 

 

My opinion is that we are driven to eat protein, whether this comes from cannibalism, omnivores or vegan ( vegetarianism) is a moot point. I will quite happily accept that vegetable protein can supply enough for us to thrive. One of the benefits of living in a science based society is that people are more likely to be aware of minimum nutritional intake and adjust their diet accordingly 

<3  Thank you so much! Well, you Really go me thinking there, so thanks to you, too!

 

In this discussion thread and recently another one, there is an exchange about attitudes and concepts about veganism-related topics, although that is actually a broad set of topics.

 

My own view and motivation is much Less framed by moral issues than scientific and logical views regarding health and performance enhancement.

 

Recently (in past weeks) I've discovered notions of self-experimentation to enhance health and performance, which are loosely described as 'bio-hacking'. I don't know much about the project or its methods and philosophy yet, but I can see already there are many references and inspirations to dive into.

 

 

I thought to raise this topic, since you mentioned the importance of protein and it's quality and our recognition and affinity for different types of amino acids and their sources, which we need to repair and replace tissue, of course. I realized I've self-experimented nutritionally for many years without having a concept for it. It's not so different from realizing I was asexual after many years of not grasping the meaning, nature and function of sexuality, but having an asexual attitude anyway... without being able to conceptualize or discuss it.

 

I take a scientific view towards food as much as I have the skill to. And I exercise a lot of will and self-control, so I mostly view food selection as motivated by what the nutrients are rather than adhering to traditions and norms of eating. I regularly experiment with super-food supplements and herbs as a kind of test pilot to see if I can perceive how differently they make me feel, as the affects range from being subtle to quite obvious, all depending on what the substance, herb or food IS, of course.

 

I enjoy conducting daily short fasts where I don't eat for 18 to 24 hours, and then I eat for a couple of hours some very highly nutrient-rich food. If I could behave like an astronaut and just take a protein pill or similar, I would welcome becoming free from food preparation and cleaning up, which I do enjoy, but which I'd rather not bother with.

 

And so my view of food is framed by my fantasy of what I would eat if I were an interstellar astronaut who didn't need to do more than refuel the body as vehicle as efficiently as quickly as possible. I confess to finding the whole eating process rather disgusting, even though, since I'm forced to eat, I can very much enjoy it, since I have no choice and just make the best of it. lol  It's the old 'shedding the monkey' attitude, where the shedding process is observed without the angel siamese twin ripping the monkey off prematurely, if that makes sense.

 

I guess I'm way off topic now, so maybe I'll start a thread about self-experimentation for performance/health enhancement (bio-hacking, so-called).

 

 

 

[ThaHoward]

18 hours ago, King of the Forest said:

It sounds like your friend needs to read up on his science and history because its pretty much a fact that humans started eating meat around the same time we discovered fire..so yeah he needs to back up and chill out, no offense to your friend

Nope http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

 

That and other sources say that humans started to consume meat over 2 million ago when we still were homo erectus. Without we wouldn't have developed as we did. And the fire was first controlled by homo erectus 600.000 years ago, and other estimates indicate it were between 200.000 to 1.7 million years ago. Even then, homo erectus started to consume meat some 1 million ++ years before they controlled fire. 

[God of the Forest]

28 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

Nope http://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

 

That and other sources say that humans started to consume meat over 2 million ago when we still were homo erectus. Without we wouldn't have developed as we did. And the fire was first controlled by homo erectus 600.000 years ago, and other estimates indicate it were between 200.000 to 1.7 million years ago. Even then, homo erectus started to consume meat some 1 million ++ years before they controlled fire. 

  I said AROUND, meaning NOT the same time lol I was making a HYBERBOLIC STATEMENT to make a point that we've been eating meat a LONG ASS TIME lol gah!  The earth is almost 5 billion years old, in those terms, 1 million years is AROUND the same time. Why are you the only one that gets me @ChillaKilla  *hugs* lol

[ThaHoward]

Your argument is still that humans only ate meat as they had fire. Now if they ate it 1 million before they started with fireplaces it is obvious that humans ate meat before that and yes we are made to eat meat - and speaking in human terms 1 million years is a long time, unless you believe humans also drove cars 1 million years ago since that is around the same time in a 5 billion perspective. But as I said in a human perspective it is a along time, as 1 million years ago we hadn't "invented" fire and had eaten meat for 1 million years already. We would not even be homo sapiens as our brains developed to that direction due to meat consumption. 

[Perissodactyla]

Meat is delicious!

 

Meat is nutritious!

 

Meat is disgusting!

 

Eating meat regularly demonstrates that one is immoral and stupid!

 

Vegans cannot honestly deny that meat is delicious!

 

Meat-eaters cannot honestly deny that meat is disgusting and immoral!

 

Vegans and meat-eaters are both stupid at times, defending their assumptions and behavior!

 

Everyone has a free choice, so let people eat what they want!

 

If people choose to be stupid and immoral, one must accept it!

 

lol

 

[ThaHoward]

I can honestly deny eating meat is disgusting and immoral. And no that don't make me stupid that I eat meat

[Perissodactyla]

33 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

I can honestly deny eating meat is disgusting and immoral. And no that don't make me stupid that I eat meat

Do you think that eating a dog is disgusting and immoral?

 

China’s Dog Meat Festival May Have to Cancel the Dog, Activists Say

"More than 10,000 dogs — many of which are believed to be stolen pets —

are said to be consumed at the celebrations every year."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/world/asia/china-dog-meat-yulin-festival.html

 

Dogs on sale in a market in Yulin, China, in 2015, during the city’s annual festival signaling the summer solstice. City officials said on Thursday that they had not heard of a ban. (Credit Adam Dean for The New York Times)

[ThaHoward]

What? That's two different subjects. And if we remove the treatment, it is only disgusting from a western perspective as we see the dog as a companion.

[Perissodactyla]

I rest my case.

 

[Zosia]

1 hour ago, ThaHoward said:

I can honestly deny eating meat is disgusting and immoral. And no that don't make me stupid that I eat meat

May I ask why you believe eating meat is not immoral? From what I've read above, your reasoning seems to stem from the belief that if we have the biological ability to eat meat and can receive nutrients from animals, and if human beings have done this for ages, so on and so forth, then that makes it okay to engage in these behaviors now? (Correct me if I'm wrong).

[ThaHoward]

No? I just corrected the claim that humans did not eat meat before they controlled fire, which is false. Why should it be immoral by default to eat meat? 

[Zosia]

3 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

No? Why should it be immoral by default to eat meat? 

Let me put it this way--is it wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering and violence onto someone else?*

 

*I'm going somewhere with this, be patient with me. 

[ThaHoward]

25 minutes ago, euco said:

I rest my case.

 

I just don't see how it is relevant. Its like me saying sex is not immoral and then you link to a child being raped and ask me if that is okay. Torally different situations.

[ThaHoward]

1 minute ago, Zosia said:

Let me put it this way--is it wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering and violence onto someone else?*

 

*I'm going somewhere with this, be patient with me. 

Depend on what you mean by unnecessary and someone. For example if a cow live a full life and is treated well and killed painless, is that unnecessary? If not killing that cow make a chimd starve, is that not unnecessary suffering? 

[The Dryad]

5 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

No? I just corrected the claim that humans did not eat meat before they controlled fire, which is false. Why should it be immoral by default to eat meat? 

I think as long as humans have existed there have always been meat eaters and vegetarians and vegans, for various reasons, I think that for whatever reason you sustain yourself the way you do, we can't force other people to change per say, but we can give them our reasonings and inspire them to change without arguing and without compromising our beliefs. As a vegan who was a meat eater up until my 15th birthday, I can understand the belief that meat eating is natural, as we have always practiced it and believed it.....and you can always find some biased scientific study as well as unbiased scientific study to prove whatever point you're biased towards. 

 

I say that, all three diets are technically natural to humans, since we're omnivores, we can survive on solely vegetables (especially vegetables that have not been cleaned well for B12, but I digress) and a diet of meat and vegetables. Vegetarianism and veganism are mostly moral standpoints (or preferences), and it's easier to just respect each other for our differences, no matter how hard it is.

[The Dryad]

7 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

I just don't see how it is relevant. Its like me saying sex is not immoral and then you link to a child being raped and ask me if that is okay. Torally different situations.

That's not the analogy you should make, dogs and cows are both sentient animals, because you associate one with food and one with companionship should be the problem because they both have the will and fight to live, and many would say that cows are good companionship as well.

[The Dryad]

8 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

Depend on what you mean by unnecessary and someone. For example if a cow live a full life and is treated well and killed painless, is that unnecessary? If not killing that cow make a chimd starve, is that not unnecessary suffering? 

If I may, if a serial killer were to kidnap someone and feed them well for years and give them a full life, and kill them painlessly, is that not unnecessary suffering? What if the mass produced feed that cows eat were cleared away, cows we're back in the wild, and we grew vegetables to feed the world instead? Idealistic yes, but also more efficient.

[ThaHoward]

3 minutes ago, The Dryad said:

That's not the analogy you should make, dogs and cows are both sentient animals, because you associate one with food and one with companionship should be the problem because they both have the will and fight to live, and many would say that cows are good companionship as well.

As I said we feel more reservation from eating dogs because of cultural norms. Its not I who made it so.

[The Dryad]

On 4/29/2017 at 4:40 PM, Dudette said:

So, I was talking to this friend who started telling me that he was addicted to meat, and suddenly the conversation went into this cult/matrix conversation which I didn't enjoy.

Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan.

I tried to explain to him that each person has different ethics (some people find it wrong to eat meat for ethical reasons), and also (at least in my case, economically) vegan food is a lot more expensive than non-vegan food; however, dairy food is cheaper than meat; thus, I eat mostly dairy food. But he just told me that I am too stupid to realize the truth.

 

am I crazy if I think people should be allowed to choose what they eat?

Or you think eating should be restricted by laws, and people should have not right to choose what they want to eat?

 

There's an idea of this in the vegan community known as "carnism", it's somewhat of a recycled term, as monks, of both Buddhist, Jain, and Christian faith, would abstain from eating animals because they thought and felt that is would corrupt their bodies and invite evil within the, much like "carnal desires" are described in the Bible, but meat eating, or animal products in general are included in this.

[The Dryad]

1 minute ago, ThaHoward said:

As I said we feel more reservation from eating dogs because of cultural norms. Its not I who made it so.

Just because you did not make up these cultural norms, does not mean that you do not have the responsibility for your actions, people do many evil things in the name of tradition and cultural norms, does it make it right?