Dudette Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 So, I was talking to this friend who started telling me that he was addicted to meat, and suddenly the conversation went into this cult/matrix conversation which I didn't enjoy. Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan. I tried to explain to him that each person has different ethics (some people find it wrong to eat meat for ethical reasons), and also (at least in my case, economically) vegan food is a lot more expensive than non-vegan food; however, dairy food is cheaper than meat; thus, I eat mostly dairy food. But he just told me that I am too stupid to realize the truth. am I crazy if I think people should be allowed to choose what they eat? Or you think eating should be restricted by laws, and people should have not right to choose what they want to eat? Link to post Share on other sites
Mermaidy Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 from my experience in the vegan community, the issue that vegans have with other people consuming animal products is that supporting the meat/dairy/etc industries perpetuates pretty blatantly awful suffering. Purchasing animal products made from industrial animal agriculture demands that more of those products be made, then more suffering etc. Most people don't buy their animal products from people who practice nonindustrial animal agriculture. Vegans usually don't stand behind people choosing what they want to eat because industrial animal agriculture is widely considering unethical. Vegans don't care if people choose to eat food that only affects the eater, but because most farmed animals are sentient, more than just the eater is involved. A lot of vegans are super militant because industrial animal agriculture is awful and they know that, but a lot of other people don't know/care. imo industrial animal/sentient being agriculture shouldn't exist but idk how we'd go about fixing that and i don't really know what that guy is referring to about the brainwashed thing so idk what to say about that Link to post Share on other sites
TessaMe Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Dudette said: Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan. This made me laugh. So on what basis is he making this claim that people are "brainwashed"? Who's brainwashing them? The government? No, that can't be right. If it was the government, then who's going to enforce veganism? Or does he think he's going to enforce veganism himself? Scientifically speaking, humans are omnivorous, meaning they are biologically designed to be able to digest meat and other animal products along with plant products. You can't brain wash your physical biology. You can, however, choose what in that spectrum of food you want to eat. If you feel it's wrong to eat meat, that's your prerogative. If I decide I want a glass of milk, that's mine. I agree that the way a lot of animal products are processed is not always ethical, but that doesn't mean you have to buy products from these places. I've seen first hand plenty of farms that take excellent care of their animals. I also understand people need to live within their means. I'm not going to demonize them or call them "stupid" because they can't afford to buy vegan products or grass fed free range beef or whatever. On another note, there is definitely a lack of awareness and concern when it comes to how many animals are treated in a lot of these set ups. Some people blatantly don't care, and this I do think is wrong. However, I've also seen videos depicting the horrors of farm industry and actually twisting information to support their argument. Again, not all farms are horror shows, and to demonize the entire industry isn't fair either. People need to be educated properly, not tricked. So to answer your original question, no, I don't think you're crazy. People can provide you with facts and information to make you think about your choices and beliefs and try to see their side, and if they make a good argument, then sure, you might change your opinion, but in the end, what you decide is what you decide. I think there are way too many bacon lovers out there for a successful vegan uprising anyway. And not for nothing, if my friend told me I was "too stupid" because I had a different opinion, they probably wouldn't be my friend any more. Link to post Share on other sites
Lia Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 I mean, in a way he's right in that if you eat meat on a regular basis, you're likely addicted to it and will find it difficult and have withdrawal symptoms if you stop eating it right now. But that's because your body has grown accustomed to the nutrients and vitamins that the meat provides to you and it would have to adjust to getting those same things through another source. It's the same reason that vegans and vegetarians get sick if they eat meat after a long time - their body isn't used to it. Other than that, my personal opinion is that this person is not actually a friend and if they want to go preach their preachy shaming crap they can go preach it elsewhere. There are many reasons to eat meat and many reasons not to. Don't allow anyone to judge you for your reasons and decisions. They (extremists like your "friend") like to act like they know everyone's circumstances and that switching lifestyles is so easy but they're fools if they think that. Brush it off (and if it were me in your shoes I'd tell him to go fuck himself but that's just me!). Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 Oml this is a new low #stopvegancrazies2k17 Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted April 29, 2017 Share Posted April 29, 2017 2 hours ago, Dudette said: Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan. *s at friend person* "Everyone's an idiot but me!" Suuure. Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Wait a second. Let's assume that he is right and people are brainwashed into eating meat. Now what? Where's the benefit? Who would benefit in this scenario? What am I supposed to believe in, now that I eat meat, that I wouldn't believe if I didn't eat meat? He could just as well have claimed that people are tricked into breathing oxygen. Oh and you should tell him that more than 95% of all crimes worldwide happen within 24hrs after the consumption of bread! It's crazy! Link to post Share on other sites
Kelpie Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 30 minutes ago, Homer said: Let's assume that he is right and people are brainwashed into eating meat. Now what? Where's the benefit? Who would benefit in this scenario? What am I supposed to believe in, now that I eat meat, that I wouldn't believe if I didn't eat meat? Theoretically, the meat industry. I mean I don't believe any of the things from the start post but it is no news that certain industries live of the fact that they tell people they need them although that isn't true (think make-up for example). Link to post Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Do they not realise that we evolved eating meat (and very little else here in the ice age north), and the reason we enjoy eating meat is because is very nutritious and easily digested, unlike plants. We're no more addicted or brainwashed to eating meat than we are to drinking water or having a good lungful of air every now and then. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Nuts *Eats steak * Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 58 minutes ago, Kelpie said: Theoretically, the meat industry. I mean I don't believe any of the things from the start post but it is no news that certain industries live of the fact that they tell people they need them although that isn't true (think make-up for example). Yes, but. If we all went vegan, the vegan food market would be significantly bigger. A lot of the competitors that compete on the meat market could just as well be competing on the vegan market... There are a lot of good reasons for a vegetarian/vegan diet - why do some people feel the need to pull some bs out their rears? Link to post Share on other sites
Still Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 A vegan diet is not entirely unproblematic when it comes to ethics. Less animals may suffer, but there's the problem of protein sources - I'm willing to bet many vegans eat soy, and soy production is very destructive to the environment. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 Each to their own. In my case if I eat too much vegetable protein it can be very environmentally unfriendly. Link to post Share on other sites
Comrade F&F Posted April 30, 2017 Share Posted April 30, 2017 A...cult? I don't like meat that much either, and try to avoid it. But...cult? Really? Link to post Share on other sites
Naosuu Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Just IMO, the biggest problem with red meat is the amount of resources it requires to run. Lots of land; lots of water; lots of energy; transportation; etc... plus cows are a significant contributor to greenhouse gases (though our own fault). Pluuusssss I think a lot of militant vegans forget that plants are more complex than we realize. Personally I'm waiting for lab grown meat. Link to post Share on other sites
Zosia Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 Look, OP, maybe your friend was being a jerk and said some things that they shouldn't have. Or, you know, maybe you're not actually understanding what they said and you're blowing it out of proportion. Could you elaborate more and specify what they said instead of making broad statements? On 4/29/2017 at 4:40 PM, Dudette said: So, I was talking to this friend who started telling me that he was addicted to meat, and suddenly the conversation went into this cult/matrix conversation which I didn't enjoy. Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan. I tried to explain to him that each person has different ethics (some people find it wrong to eat meat for ethical reasons), and also (at least in my case, economically) vegan food is a lot more expensive than non-vegan food; however, dairy food is cheaper than meat; thus, I eat mostly dairy food. But he just told me that I am too stupid to realize the truth. am I crazy if I think people should be allowed to choose what they eat? Or you think eating should be restricted by laws, and people should have not right to choose what they want to eat? Aren't you accusing him of the same things that you say he accused you of? Specifically, of being brainwashed and being a member of a cult, or am I reading this wrong? And you also seem to be implying that he's too stupid to understand your point of view (another thing you accused him of saying to you). Also, about your statement that "each person has different ethics": Different people have different views about how we may or may not be harming the environment. Does this mean that all of these opinions are equally valid? On 4/29/2017 at 5:39 PM, Mermaidy said: from my experience in the vegan community, the issue that vegans have with other people consuming animal products is that supporting the meat/dairy/etc industries perpetuates pretty blatantly awful suffering. Purchasing animal products made from industrial animal agriculture demands that more of those products be made, then more suffering etc. Most people don't buy their animal products from people who practice nonindustrial animal agriculture. Vegans usually don't stand behind people choosing what they want to eat because industrial animal agriculture is widely considering unethical. Vegans don't care if people choose to eat food that only affects the eater, but because most farmed animals are sentient, more than just the eater is involved. A lot of vegans are super militant because industrial animal agriculture is awful and they know that, but a lot of other people don't know/care. imo industrial animal/sentient being agriculture shouldn't exist but idk how we'd go about fixing that and i don't really know what that guy is referring to about the brainwashed thing so idk what to say about that This is a pretty good explanation, although I'll point out that the issue that most vegans have is not just with industrialized animal agriculture, but the entire animal agriculture industry down to the smallest and most "humane" producer. Regardless of how well the farmer treats their animals, if the animals are being raised specifically to be slaughtered for unnecessary reasons (like taste, for example), vegans are going to have an issue with it. I would say that most vegans are concerned with animal rights over welfarism. (If that makes sense? I could elaborate more, but I think you already understand?) 11 hours ago, Still said: A vegan diet is not entirely unproblematic when it comes to ethics. Less animals may suffer, but there's the problem of protein sources - I'm willing to bet many vegans eat soy, and soy production is very destructive to the environment. Gee, it's not like the mass majority of soy is grown specifically to be fed to livestock...and you realize that soy is not necessary in a vegan diet, right? 5 hours ago, Naosuu said: Just IMO, the biggest problem with red meat is the amount of resources it requires to run. Lots of land; lots of water; lots of energy; transportation; etc... plus cows are a significant contributor to greenhouse gases (though our own fault). Pluuusssss I think a lot of militant vegans forget that plants are more complex than we realize. Personally I'm waiting for lab grown meat. And, I think that a lot of meat eaters forget how many pounds of plant matter/feed it takes to produce the meat that they consume. Link to post Share on other sites
binary suns Posted May 1, 2017 Share Posted May 1, 2017 well, sugar is highly addictive actually, and most meat is served with lots of sugar. but it's sugar that's the problem, and generally speaking, all refined or highly processed crap. Generally speaking, eating a lot of veggies is a wise move, but eh. do what you want. Link to post Share on other sites
Dudette Posted May 2, 2017 Author Share Posted May 2, 2017 On 5/1/2017 at 8:35 AM, Zosia said: Look, OP, maybe your friend was being a jerk and said some things that they shouldn't have. Or, you know, maybe you're not actually understanding what they said and you're blowing it out of proportion. Could you elaborate more and specify what they said instead of making broad statements? Aren't you accusing him of the same things that you say he accused you of? Specifically, of being brainwashed and being a member of a cult, or am I reading this wrong? And you also seem to be implying that he's too stupid to understand your point of view (another thing you accused him of saying to you). Also, about your statement that "each person has different ethics": Different people have different views about how we may or may not be harming the environment. Does this mean that all of these opinions are equally valid? I am saying that you can eat meat or not eat meat, and still be a good person. I tried to tell him that eating meat or not eating meat comes from the ethics (for example Christians think that animals are less than humans; thus, eating meat is acceptable, in Hinduism eating meat is wrong because it is believed that animals have souls like humans). He told me that people who think like Christians are just brainwashed. I am not implying that he is "too stupid" to eat meat, I am implying that everyone has different ethics and each of them is valid, and we should respect our choices and ethics. But he called me stupid for that statement. Also I believe that everyone should have right to choose what to eat (economically,ethically,taste,socially,religiously,etc.). Link to post Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 On 01/05/2017 at 5:09 PM, Meow. said: well, sugar is highly addictive actually, and most meat is served with lots of sugar. but it's sugar that's the problem, and generally speaking, all refined or highly processed crap. Generally speaking, eating a lot of veggies is a wise move, but eh. do what you want. Most meat is served with sugar? You're doing it wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said: Most meat is served with sugar? You're doing it wrong. Normally I agree, but if you've never dipped your bacon strips in leftover maple syrup from pancakes, you haven't lived. Link to post Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 3 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said: Normally I agree, but if you've never dipped your bacon strips in leftover maple syrup from pancakes, you haven't lived. You are aware I'm from the civilised continent of Europe? We do not mix our dinner and dessert. Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 1 minute ago, Anthracite_Impreza said: You are aware I'm from the civilised continent of Europe? We do not mix our dinner and dessert. Pancakes are breakfast, not dessert. Link to post Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Just now, ChillaKilla said: Pancakes are breakfast, not dessert. Only to you uncivilised beasts. Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 Just now, Anthracite_Impreza said: Only to you uncivilised beasts. Says the country that thinks salt and vinegar on fish and chips is the epitome of adding spice to your food! Link to post Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 5 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said: Says the country that thinks salt and vinegar on fish and chips is the epitome of adding spice to your food! Hey that's very adventurous I'll have you know, far too adventurous for me. Link to post Share on other sites
binary suns Posted May 2, 2017 Share Posted May 2, 2017 21 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said: Most meat is served with sugar? You're doing it wrong. If you buy meat raw, nah. I'm talking about all other sources of meat. if it is packaged meat pre-cooked, it usualy has sauce on it. that sauce has sugar or salt. if it is in a restaurant, it definitely has sugar in it, and definitely salt too. especially if it has sauce. salt isn't as big a deal as sugar tho.. and fat isn't bad either, but both salt and fat are definitely moreish for us. sugar is on the other hand addictive for our bodies. there is addictive response to sugar. Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 I have to agree about the sugar, often disguised as glucose syrup in too many processed foods. Even brown sauce, our traditional accompaniment to bacon on a sandwich contains molasses, effective sugar in disguise Link to post Share on other sites
aeimquy159 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 On 4/29/2017 at 3:40 PM, Dudette said: Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan. This is hilarious. I'd say he's the one that's brainwashed. Humans have been eating meat for about 2.5 million years. In early human history there was no agenda, no brainwashing, there was only survival and meat was survival. When humans started eating meat it provided much higher caloric intake to the human diet which allowed for larger brains and expanded intelligence. Without eating meat we wouldn't be the species we are today. I do think we eat too much meat in our world today. 40% of the worlds grain production goes towards feeding livestock. Not to mention the amount of water. Meat through history was treated more as an occasional treat. Today meat is a daily staple of many people in the western world. 2 hours ago, Skycaptain said: I have to agree about the sugar, often disguised as glucose syrup in too many processed foods. Even brown sauce, our traditional accompaniment to bacon on a sandwich contains molasses, effective sugar in disguise I completely agree with this. I eat around 20g of sugar a day (roughly equal to half a can of soda) and it's not easy. I had no idea how much sugar I was eating until I started tracking it. Everything seems to have added sugar and things that have always had added sugar now have more added sugar. There was a group trying to get the FDA to require not only the currently shown sugar content on nutritional labels but also the amount of added sugar. Unfortunately this was lobbied against and went nowhere. Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 Quote So, I was talking to this friend who started telling me that he was addicted to meat, and suddenly the conversation went into this cult/matrix conversation which I didn't enjoy. Basically, he told me that people are brainwashed; thus, they eat meat, and he is the only person who sees the truth, and everyone should be forced to become vegan. I think "NO U" is really the only valid response to make here. Some folks just aren't worth a more thought out argument. Quote Do they not realise that we evolved eating meat (and very little else here in the ice age north), and the reason we enjoy eating meat is because is very nutritious and easily digested, unlike plants. I don't give a shit about those things personally; I eat meat because it tastes better. Unless that's what you meant by "easily digested" Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted May 3, 2017 Share Posted May 3, 2017 So basically you're free to choose what you're getting killed by ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Link to post Share on other sites
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