Gendered Vs Agendered Vs Igendered

[SithLord]

2 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

But without a presentation, isn't there no gender at all? how you wanna be treated is more personal than a "groupal" feeling of belonging to a gender?

No.  Gender expression and gender are different.  I am still a chick if I choose to wear jeans and a t-shirt, have short hair, keep my nails short, wear sneakers, and do other things generally perceived as either gender neutral or masculine depending on who you ask.  I am still a chick if I decide to wear heels, put on make-up, wear a lacy dress, etc.  I am still my gender no matter what I choose to present at the time.  Sometimes you can tell someone's gender by how they choose to express their gender, but you can't be certain since many people dress according to social pressures.

 

There has to be a presentation even if how they present you interpret as masculine or feminine, it does not mean they are those things.  Wearing a dress doesn't make you a girl, and having short hair doesn't make you a boy.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, sithgirlix said:

No.  Gender expression and gender are different.  I am still a chick if I choose to wear jeans and a t-shirt, have short hair, keep my nails short, wear sneakers, and do other things generally perceived as either gender neutral or masculine depending on who you ask.  I am still a chick if I decide to wear heels, put on make-up, wear a lacy dress, etc.  I am still my gender no matter what I choose to present at the time.  Sometimes you can tell someone's gender by how they choose to express their gender, but you can't be certain since many people dress according to social pressures.

 

There has to be a presentation even if how they present you interpret as masculine or feminine, it does not mean they are those things.  Wearing a dress doesn't make you a girl, and having short hair doesn't make you a boy.

I guess you don't get it... if you don't have a gender, then what's the point in behaving masculine or feminine other than subjective preference of comfort, you're not trying to pass as anything.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Maybe we'd get somewhere if people set up the differences BTW gendered, agendered and igendered

[Luftschlosseule]

3 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

I guess you don't get it... if you don't have a gender, then what's the point in behaving masculine or feminine other than subjective preference of comfort, you're not trying to pass as anything.

Sorry, I don't understand you.

I only think about how to change my behaviour if I encounter difficulties or happen to offend people or... dunno. I don't go there and say "I do x because I'll come across as feminine" - I don't even on days I am a woman. I want to pass as a person nobody does harm to, but other than that I just do what feels best. Most me. Yes, I want to pass as me.

Do you mean a kind of gendered peer pressure? "We all behave in that way so you have, too?"

[AVEN #1 fan]

3 minutes ago, Luftschlosseule said:

Sorry, I don't understand you.

I only think about how to change my behaviour if I encounter difficulties or happen to offend people or... dunno. I don't go there and say "I do x because I'll come across as feminine" - I don't even on days I am a woman. I want to pass as a person nobody does harm to, but other than that I just do what feels best. Most me. Yes, I want to pass as me.

Do you mean a kind of gendered peer pressure? "We all behave in that way so you have, too?"

Well.... yeah you get it, you try to pass as "yourselves " or "humans" rather than other genders.

 

isn't it frustrating to not be able to pass as "agender"?  you know... without a certain gender presentation to follow or gender roles, you will always be mistaken for another gender.

[Luftschlosseule]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

Well.... yeah you get it, you try to pass as "yourselves " or "humans" rather than other genders.

 

isn't it frustrating to not be able to pass as "agender"?  you know... without a certain gender presentation to follow or gender roles, you will always be mistaken for another gender.

Of course it is. I can walk in a room and won't notice if there is an enby in there, unless somebodys wearing an explaining shirt of something.

And the whole mankind seems so... uncertain because you try not to use gendered language anymore because you can't be sure. Then, if you look other enbies up on the web, you see white, skinny, healthy people with short hair. I may be white, but I am not skinny, healthy, or have short hair - so it feels difficult every time somebody talks about hairstyles. But the realisation that I am agender was not that long ago, and I still need to experiment and such.

 

Another thing which frustrates me is that you have to explain what being agender means because most people never heard of it, and that kind of ties together with the passing. You might have read about agender, but you may not happen to meet a person telling you their agender, and unused knowledge gets forgotten - and that's only if you heard of it in the first place...

Or having "women problems" on an agender day. Walking in a store and looking for clothing that not only matches your body type but what you like to wear - I prefer simple trousers without decorations, which I could find in the men's departments, but there's space in there I can't fill which makes them uncomfortable.

 

To come back to what you said, I don't mind being mistaken for another gender, it's more... that everybody assumes to know who I am. Boobs, long hair, jewellery = woman.
That they conclude without gathering information first. That's a pet peeve of mine, for example when people want to give me "good advice" for my health and only say random stuff you'll learn first when you read into that topic.

 

Live is frustrating. On some days more, on some days less. Some issues are non-existent one day and may be huge another. That's how it is.

And regarding gendered peer pressure, that eased up a lot after school. I am very glad about that.

 

[AVEN #1 fan]

9 minutes ago, Luftschlosseule said:

Of course it is. I can walk in a room and won't notice if there is an enby in there, unless somebodys wearing an explaining shirt of something.

And the whole mankind seems so... uncertain because you try not to use gendered language anymore because you can't be sure. Then, if you look other enbies up on the web, you see white, skinny, healthy people with short hair. I may be white, but I am not skinny, healthy, or have short hair - so it feels difficult every time somebody talks about hairstyles. But the realisation that I am agender was not that long ago, and I still need to experiment and such.

 

Another thing which frustrates me is that you have to explain what being agender means because most people never heard of it, and that kind of ties together with the passing. You might have read about agender, but you may not happen to meet a person telling you their agender, and unused knowledge gets forgotten - and that's only if you heard of it in the first place...

Or having "women problems" on an agender day. Walking in a store and looking for clothing that not only matches your body type but what you like to wear - I prefer simple trousers without decorations, which I could find in the men's departments, but there's space in there I can't fill which makes them uncomfortable.

 

To come back to what you said, I don't mind being mistaken for another gender, it's more... that everybody assumes to know who I am. Boobs, long hair, jewellery = woman.
That they conclude without gathering information first. That's a pet peeve of mine, for example when people want to give me "good advice" for my health and only say random stuff you'll learn first when you read into that topic.

 

Live is frustrating. On some days more, on some days less. Some issues are non-existent one day and may be huge another. That's how it is.

And regarding gendered peer pressure, that eased up a lot after school. I am very glad about that.

 

Yeah,  I know you guys have dysphoria, but isn't your dysphoria something more personal since you can't just pass as "agender"?

[Luftschlosseule]

1 minute ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yeah,  I know you guys have dysphoria, but isn't your dysphoria something more personal since you can't just pass as "agender"?

You know, I think the problem in this discussion is really that expressing oneself is bad enough when it's done in your native tongue and with having mimic and such and we're here... Dysphoria is always personal cause it's a feeling. It's inside of you.

maybe you mean that it's more difficult to ease the dysphoria? To go back to me as an example, I think about cutting my hair but as I had my hair short years ago I was very uncomfortable and I wanted to have long hair for years. I assume that the moment I cut my hair I want it how it was before. I know that I have to do something to ease dysphoria, but I don't know what this might be.

If I wanted to be seen as a man, I'd know where to start. Is that what you mean?

[AVEN #1 fan]

1 minute ago, Luftschlosseule said:

You know, I think the problem in this discussion is really that expressing oneself is bad enough when it's done in your native tongue and with having mimic and such and we're here... Dysphoria is always personal cause it's a feeling. It's inside of you.

maybe you mean that it's more difficult to ease the dysphoria? To go back to me as an example, I think about cutting my hair but as I had my hair short years ago I was very uncomfortable and I wanted to have long hair for years. I assume that the moment I cut my hair I want it how it was before. I know that I have to do something to ease dysphoria, but I don't know what this might be.

If I wanted to be seen as a man, I'd know where to start. Is that what you mean?

No, I mean your dysphorias seem to be related to not being easily mistaken for another genders or bc you don't feel comfortable with your appearance overall?

[Luftschlosseule]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

No, I mean your dysphorias seem to be related to not being easily mistaken for another genders or bc you don't feel comfortable with your appearance overall?

More the latter. Mistaken for somebody or something I not am is more tied to my annoyance at annoying people - at least for me.

But, as I said, I am still puzzling everything out.

[AVEN #1 fan]

1 minute ago, Luftschlosseule said:

More the latter. Mistaken for somebody or something I not am is more tied to my annoyance at annoying people - at least for me.

But, as I said, I am still puzzling everything out.

Is there any reason at all other than like/dislike for agenders to feel uncomfortable on their skin?

[Luftschlosseule]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

Is there any reason at all other than like/dislike for agenders to feel uncomfortable on their skin?

I am fat. I am ill. My skin needs high sun protection to stop doing weird things. My heart has a failure that needs constant medication.
You mean agender-related issues? I don't know how dysphoria feels for other persons, which means that I can't really answer to that. And there is nothing more than the feeling that something is wrong. I don't dislike breasts, for example, but rather find them beautiful. On some days I'd like a binder because it just feels like ... if I try to translate it into words it goes like wrongwrongwrongWRONGchangeitwrong.

Imagine you feel like it would be natural to have wings on your back, but you simply haven't. You want to use them, or make space so that you won't hurt your wings, or slap other people by mistake - you behave as if you had these wings but you haven't and you want your subconsciousness and your consciousness and your abilities to match up.

[AVEN #1 fan]

8 minutes ago, Luftschlosseule said:

I am fat. I am ill. My skin needs high sun protection to stop doing weird things. My heart has a failure that needs constant medication.
You mean agender-related issues? I don't know how dysphoria feels for other persons, which means that I can't really answer to that. And there is nothing more than the feeling that something is wrong. I don't dislike breasts, for example, but rather find them beautiful. On some days I'd like a binder because it just feels like ... if I try to translate it into words it goes like wrongwrongwrongWRONGchangeitwrong.

Imagine you feel like it would be natural to have wings on your back, but you simply haven't. You want to use them, or make space so that you won't hurt your wings, or slap other people by mistake - you behave as if you had these wings but you haven't and you want your subconsciousness and your consciousness and your abilities to match up.

This is painful and depressing... *hugs*

[Luftschlosseule]

It kind of is, yes.^^

So, easing dysphoria is looking at what feels wrong and experimenting to see what feels right. On some days it's simple as not wearing a skirt or clothing with decorations. And for that I like outdoor equipment companies who concentrate more on having long lasting material and design than being trendy.

 

And agender is a pretty new term, especially if compared to man and woman. We had a long time to have a set of things to associate with each, so it may only take time to establish these kind of connections.

 

Edit: Posting number 666 >D

[Dodecahedron314]

...today is just the day of me ping-ponging between Internet arguments, isn't it.

1 hour ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

But without a certain presentation, isn't there no gender at all? how you wanna be treated is more personal than a "groupal" feeling of belonging to a gender?

No. Presentation does not equal gender, plain and simple. And even if it did, I can't very well present as "nothing", because people insist on gendering everything, and even if I managed to find the most "genderless" possible outfit, they'd still assume my gender based on my physical characteristics. It is, in fact, physically impossible to correlate presentation with gender when your gender is nonexistent.

 

1 hour ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

I guess you don't get it... if you don't have a gender, then what's the point in behaving masculine or feminine other than subjective preference of comfort, you're not trying to pass as anything.

What's masculine or feminine to you might not be to the person who's doing it. Alternatively, it could be an effort to offset one's assigned gender in order to avoid being read as such--I don't try to pass as anything in particular, but I sure as heck aim for "decidedly not female" most of the time, let's put it that way.

 

1 hour ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

isn't it frustrating to not be able to pass as "agender"?  you know... without a certain gender presentation to follow or gender roles, you will always be mistaken for another gender.

Bingo. People don't understand how it's possible to not have a gender, so they automatically assign you one--any one--and no matter which one it is, it's going to be wrong. Hence why I always go out of my way to correct the misconception that agender people don't care about gender--it's possible to care quite a lot when someone keeps on trying to insist I have one and I don't.

[AVEN #1 fan]

6 minutes ago, Luftschlosseule said:

It kind of is, yes.^^

So, easing dysphoria is looking at what feels wrong and experimenting to see what feels right. On some days it's simple as not wearing a skirt or clothing with decorations. And for that I like outdoor equipment companies who concentrate more on having long lasting material and design than being trendy.

 

And agender is a pretty new term, especially if compared to man and woman. We had a long time to have a set of things to associate with each, so it may only take time to establish these kind of connections.

Yeah,  androgyne is very old too... it exists since ancient Greece.

 

I do feel dysphoria but my dysphoria is linked to not feeling ambiguous enough, I don't care for misgendering since that's mostly the point I'm androgynous.

 

 

You guys care for misgendering?

[Luftschlosseule]

1 minute ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yeah,  androgyne is very old too... it exists since ancient Greece.

 

I do feel dysphoria but my dysphoria is linked to not feeling ambiguous enough, I don't care for misgendering since that's mostly the point I'm androgynous.

Oh, please don't tell me something existed since ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt or Mesopotamia - that's what I study and I want to know where do you have this knowledge from, where can I read about that, please tell me you got that from a reliable source... Wrong person. It might lead to an enormous discussion you don't want, I am afraid.  :'D

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, Luftschlosseule said:

Oh, please don't tell me something existed since ancient Greece, Rome, Egypt or Mesopotamia - that's what I study and I want to know where do you have this knowledge from, where can I read about that, please tell me you got that from a reliable source... Wrong person. It might lead to an enormous discussion you don't want, I am afraid.  :'D

Greeks coined the word androgyne when they tried explaining the origin of humans.

Andro comes from Greek and means man and gyne/gyno means woman.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Here, I guess Plato spread that myth: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soulmate

[Luftschlosseule]

Just now, AVEN #1 fan said:

Greeks coined the word androgyne when they tried explaining the origin of humans.

Andro comes from Greek and means man and gyne/gyno means woman.

See, that's what I mean: You give no source and don't talk about the possibility of having this concept taken from an older culture.

We'd hijack this thread big time.

 

And I'll go now, since it's late over here and the day was long.

Could you do me a favour? If you have a question, please just ask instead of inventing theories. Or, if you must invent them, look out to whom you tell about them. As I first read what you said, I was really offended while now I have the impression that we both get on well with explaining and asking and... you know? When people are calmer you're more likely to get more knowledge you want instead of having to defend what you said if you don't want to apologise.

Bye!

[AVEN #1 fan]

5 minutes ago, Luftschlosseule said:

See, that's what I mean: You give no source and don't talk about the possibility of having this concept taken from an older culture.

We'd hijack this thread big time.

 

And I'll go now, since it's late over here and the day was long.

Could you do me a favour? If you have a question, please just ask instead of inventing theories. Or, if you must invent them, look out to whom you tell about them. As I first read what you said, I was really offended while now I have the impression that we both get on well with explaining and asking and... you know? When people are calmer you're more likely to get more knowledge you want instead of having to defend what you said if you don't want to apologise.

Bye!

I posted up there, just check the soulmate myth of Plato.

 

The etymology is ancient greek:

 

HHere is andro - https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/andro-

TThere is gyne/gyno - https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/gyno-

Androgyno - https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/andrógino

 

Plato myth is here in second paragraph: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soulmate

[SithLord]

1 hour ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Is there any reason at all other than like/dislike for agenders to feel uncomfortable on their skin?

I experience dysphoria quite often, hence why I don't relate as being completely cisgender.  Sometimes dresses just feel wrong.  I hate my nipples and wear tight bras or sports bras quite often.  I began to feel that long hair didn't fit me so I chopped it off and kept cutting until it's something I like.  It's something I thought all girls experienced since "All girls hate their bodies" was ingrained in me like "No girls want sex" when I was growing up.

Ash(ley) Mardell (don't know which name they're going by at the moment) has a few videos up about their dysphoria growing up.

 

I imagine the reason you know you don't fit your assigned gender/sex is because of dysphoria.  Though I also believe gender to be on a spectrum (hence demi-girl or chick) so I can still be cis for the most part and experience dysphoria.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Is there any reason at all other than like/dislike for agenders to feel uncomfortable on their skin?

I experience dysphoria on a regular base (especially chest related) hence why i'm not cis, I wear sports bra's quite often or just no bra when i'm not in the mood.I'm currently saving up to get a binder and will purchase it as soon as i've got the money, Sometimes i love my chest but i don't really like it being there all the time and would rather see it flat. I think it differs per person on how comfortable they feel on their skins, afaik dysphoria is one of the main things mandatory to count as non cis.

 

Someone can correct me on this if i'm wrong.

[SamwiseLovesLife]

14 hours ago, Luftschlosseule said:

You know, I think the problem in this discussion is really that expressing oneself is bad enough when it's done in your native tongue and with having mimic and such and we're here... Dysphoria is always personal cause it's a feeling. It's inside of you.

maybe you mean that it's more difficult to ease the dysphoria? To go back to me as an example, I think about cutting my hair but as I had my hair short years ago I was very uncomfortable and I wanted to have long hair for years. I assume that the moment I cut my hair I want it how it was before. I know that I have to do something to ease dysphoria, but I don't know what this might be.

If I wanted to be seen as a man, I'd know where to start. Is that what you mean?

This is EXACTLY how I feel </3

And I know what @AVEN #1 fan is saying when they say there is no way to 'pass' as agendered. For me it doesn't metter how I present. What matters is what's inside of me, which has no gender, It's just me.

 

14 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Yeah,  androgyne is very old too... it exists since ancient Greece.

Is the age of a label important? Asexual is a very young term but we all still identify with it on one way or another because it describes the way we have always felt

[AVEN #1 fan]

8 hours ago, SamwiseLovesLife said:

This is EXACTLY how I feel </3

And I know what @AVEN #1 fan is saying when they say there is no way to 'pass' as agendered. For me it doesn't metter how I present. What matters is what's inside of me, which has no gender, It's just me.

 

Is the age of a label important? Asexual is a very young term but we all still identify with it on one way or another because it describes the way we have always felt

Not rly,  but if we lived a lot of years ago, we would all be called androgynes instead of non-binaries.

 

New and better gender terms started to appear around after the 1990s , like non-binary,  genderqueer,  genderfluid,  neutrois,  agender, maverique,  neurogender,  genderflux,  etc. Thanks to the internet and for the actual political and religious situation and the development of humans.  philosophy development was also a cause.

[AVEN #1 fan]

But yeah. ... back in topic,  agender is relatively new and sorta confusing term.

[Toothlesss]

18 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

But yeah. ... back in topic,  agender is relatively new and sorta confusing term.

What's really sad is that haters (who don't deserve attention anyway) purport issue with "agender" saying it doesn't exist because they don't experience it. *sigh*. Oh, I hope the hater I'm thinking about 😠 (off AVEN)...gets isolated from people for the hatred they throw around to everyone different from them..  😑

 

22 hours ago, Dodecahedron314 said:

Bingo. People don't understand how it's possible to not have a gender, so they automatically assign you one--any one--and no matter which one it is, it's going to be wrong. Hence why I always go out of my way to correct the misconception that agender people don't care about gender--it's possible to care quite a lot when someone keeps on trying to insist I have one and I don't.

^^ All this. But I'm also a person who wants to shy away from anything feminine related, at least presenting wise.