On Sexual Orientation and Attraction: A Bigger Discussion

[Konfuzd]

I've come to realize that people are not really attracted to gender as much as they are attracted to gender expressions. 

 

This understanding has come with a more inclusive recognition of trans and gender non-conforming identities. 

 

In relation to my own experience, after falling for a trans boy, I realized that genitalia is not really the end-all. And in the era of a sex positive awakening-- all sex is good sex as long as it's consensual (and to that end, pleasurable)-- this non-issue doesn't really have to do with the fact that I'm asexual.

 

We also understand sexual arousal as a biological response to physical stimuli. Realistically, no matter your orientation, you should be able to be aroused by anything. Sex, really-- if this matters so much to you-- should not be a problem.

 

However my own understanding is in contrast with associates I've come across who tell me "I wouldn't date a trans [person/insert gender]" or something else to that same effect. This thinking, depending on how you frame it, is borderline to boldly transphobic-- though most will not admit to it. In actuality, when you are attracted to a person sexually and/or aesthetically, their genitalia is not placed amongst the rest of their physicalities in that moment. Thus, odds are, you will be or have been attracted to a trans person without knowing it, and ending all interests in that person upon acquiring that knowledge is inherently transphobic. 

 

Moreover, let's say you are a lesbian, and you find someone you presume to be a girl with what might be called a masculine or adrogynous presentation attractive. Upon later acknowlegdment and retrospective thought, you might find that this person actually identities as male (and is trans). You will probably not call yourself bisexual at this point. Further, if this person was non-binary, you still may not consider yourself to be pansexual. Or maybe you will. 

 

At any rate, the point is you were attracted to how this person expressed themselves physically more than their actual gender. And many a time, this is the case. 

 

Personally, while I first identified as straight, I've discerned that this really means I'm attracted to masculine presenting people, especially when we're thinking outside the binary.

 

Then, after escaping transphobic critiques of my attraction to a trans guy-- who himself was somewhat feminine-- I re-approached earlier thought processes I'd had about my orientation. Namely, the question I now know many women have as to whether their recognition of another woman's beauty is simply envy or something more substantial. My answer is similarly curious: does it matter? or is that the same thing?

 

Since that inquiry, I've allowed myself to admit that I'm attracted to women, and then, really all genders. 

 

So, if we do away with the gender binary, and how we conceptualize sexual and aesthetic attraction and orientation-- possibly even romantic orientation-- could we not all be pan in some vein?

 

[Dudette]

17 hours ago, Konfuzd said:

I've come to realize that people are not really attracted to gender as much as they are attracted to gender expressions. 

 

This understanding has come with a more inclusive recognition of trans and gender non-conforming identities. 

 

In relation to my own experience, after falling for a trans boy, I realized that genitalia is not really the end-all. And in the era of a sex positive awakening-- all sex is good sex as long as it's consensual (and to that end, pleasurable)-- this non-issue doesn't really have to do with the fact that I'm asexual.

 

We also understand sexual arousal as a biological response to physically stimuli. Realistically, no matter your orientation, you should be able to be aroused by anything. Sex, really-- if this matters so much to you-- should not be a problem.

 

However my own understanding is in contrast with associates I've come across who tell me "I wouldn't date a trans [person/insert gender]" or something else to that same effect. This thinking, depending on how you frame it, is borderline to boldly transphobic-- though most will not admit to it. In actuality, when you are attracted to a person sexually and/or aesthetically, their genitalia is not placed amongst the rest of their physicalities in that moment. Thus, odds are, you will be or have been attracted to a trans person without knowing it, and ending all interests in that person upon acquiring that knowledge is inherently transphobic. 

 

Moreover, let's say you are a lesbian, and you find someone you presume to be a girl with what might be called a masculine or adrogynous presentation attractive. Upon later acknowlegdment and retrospective thought, you might find that this person actually identities as male (and is trans). You will probably not call yourself bisexual at this point. Further, if this person was non-binary, you still may not consider yourself to be pansexual. Or maybe you will. 

 

At any rate, the point is you were attracted to how this person expressed themselves physically more than they're actual gender. And many a time, this is the case. 

 

Personally, while I first identified as straight, I've discerned that this really means I'm attracted to masculine presenting people, especially when we're thinking outside the binary.

 

Then, after escaping transphobic critiques of my attraction to a trans guy-- who himself was somewhat feminine-- I re-approached earlier thought processes I'd had about my orientation. Namely, the question I now know many women have as to whether their recognition of another woman's beauty is simply envy or something more substantial. My answer is similarly curious: does it matter? or is that the same thing?

 

Since that inquiry, I've allowed myself to admit that I'm attracted to women, and then, really all genders. 

 

So, if we do away with the gender binary, and how we conceptualize sexual and aesthetic attraction and orientation-- possibly even romantic orientation-- could we not all be pan in some vein?

 

By my observations (I know one thing which is I know nothing), I have noticed that many people feel attracted to all genders. Actually. If you were to read Republic by Plato or other classic Greek philosophy books, you would noticed that Plato and Socrates would say "anal sex is the best", "every man should have sex with men and women" (the quotes are not 100% correct but the idea is) which would suggest that the Greeks were a lot more open about their sexuality than nowadays (Well, they did not have any idea of sexual orientations, they would often just have sex with anything really or have no sex at all). Even the Romans before Christianity did that. many Greeks and Romans were into all genders and mixture of them for example the roman emperor Nero who fell in love with a guy and later cut his balls off, and forced him to wear woman's dress (he was also into women before falling in love) or even Commodus who had sex with women and then would dress up as a female prostitute to be a bottom.

 

Therefore, I agree with you that no matter what orientations you should be able to be aroused by anything sexual (however, there are some exceptions in asexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality), but then the questions which always appear after are "do you desire to have sex with this person or that person?", "Do you like sex?", "What is your preferred gender", "what is you preferred type of person", etc. etc. etc.

However, I disagree with "the point is you were attracted to how this person expressed themselves physically more than they're actual gender" because

According to my research (my own observation and other people I asked), many people have also preference of feminine or masculine in each gender

For example, I find masculine girls and feminine guys cute (I find them special because they stand out from others), if your statement was true then I would find masculine girls and masculine guys cute or feminine girls and feminine guys cute , but I don't.

Other people also experience that physically behavior vs gender are independent from each other for example I know this guy on other forum who find feminine guys only attractive.

[Konfuzd]

16 minutes ago, m_p_w said:

However, I disagree with "the point is you were attracted to how this person expressed themselves physically more than they're actual gender" because

According to my research (my own observation and other people I asked), many people have also preference of feminine or masculine in each gender

For example, I find masculine girls and feminine guys cute (I find them special because they stand out from others), if your statement was true then I would find masculine girls and masculine guys cute or feminine girls and feminine guys cute , but I don't.

Socrates wins again as the great philosopher, then!

 

However, I would contest that you are attracted to adrogynous or gender non-conforming gender expressions then, corroborating my point.

[Konfuzd]

19 minutes ago, m_p_w said:

Therefore, I agree with you that no matter what orientations you should be able to be aroused by anything sexual (however, there are some exceptions in asexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality), but then the questions which always appear after are "do you desire to have sex with this person or that person?", "Do you like sex?", "What is your preferred gender", "what is you preferred type of person", etc. etc. etc.

And yeah, my point is especiallyif you are asexual, aesthetic attraction I think from my observations are usually more omniscient than with other orientations, and whether you are aroused or not by said person is usually not a concern anyways.

 

I am not sure what I can say about panromantic as of yet, but I think our romantic orientations could be more open as well.

[Dudette]

5 minutes ago, Konfuzd said:

And yeah, my point is especiallyif you are asexual, aesthetic attraction I think from my observations are usually more omniscient than with other orientations, and whether you are aroused or not by said person is usually not a concern anyways.

 

I am not sure what I can say about panromantic as of yet, but I think our romantic orientations could be more open as well.

Bisexuals and bi-romantics are more aware of it. However, I read on forums about gays or talked to straights about it, and some of them are also aware of it.

I think it depends how much you are interested in sexuality. 

 

Our sexuality and romantic orientations could be more open, yea! However, the problem which I have observed is this "I prefer this or that".

For example I was romantically attracted to two friends of mine, guy and girl, and then I thought to myself I would prefer to be with the girl. So in a way, I am more open, but it doesn't change my preferences, and If I would ignore the feeling towards the guy (before I came out) then it would not change anyway. However, there is a possibility that I would meet a guy or even tran who I would choose over a girl  because I am aware of these feelings now.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Konfuzd said:

Socrates wins again as the great philosopher, then!

 

However, I would contest that you are attracted to adrogynous or gender non-conforming gender expressions then, corroborating my point.

I see your point, but how would you explain that I prefer girls over guys?

[Konfuzd]

I'd describe that simply as a preference. Many bisexual and pansexual people have preferences. Also if we DO factor in sex, there are different types that are preferred that could only work with certain bodies, so that's another preference.

 

I myself usually lean towards men. But another question is to what end are these preferences merely socially constructed?

[Dudette]

9 hours ago, Konfuzd said:

I'd describe that simply as a preference. Many bisexual and pansexual people have preferences. Also if we DO factor in sex, there are different types that are preferred that could only work with certain bodies, so that's another preference.

 

I myself usually lean towards men. But another question is to what end are these preferences merely socially constructed?

Society has an influence if you are able to adjust. There are two perfect examples which I have seen.
I used to know this bisexual friend who prefers homosexual relationship. One may we talked about her sexuality, and I she told me that she would prefer to marry a man to create normal family.

The second example which often appears in this forum is the fact that many grey-asexuals/demi-sexuals are willing to have sexual relationship in order to have a normal family/relationship.

 

I can relate to it, how would I explain being with a guy and not having sex or being with a girl and not having sex to my family or the society without them being worried?

It's difficult because people do not really understand each others sexuality (we think we do, but we dont. It is easier to understand people of the same spectrum of sexual orientation, eg demisexuals understand demisexuals, because they can relate). Therefore, people are willing to adjust to the society standard just so they would not stand out so much, and people from other sexual orientations would not get worried and try to help them even though they do not need it. For example, asexuals are often treated if they are depressed or have some kind of mental disorder which makes them not interested in sex, I experienced this and its not fun . (no empathy is needed , I am just showing you that society has an influence and why )

[Konfuzd]

Yes, I feel this as well. In fact, when I came out to my mom as asexual, she said "it means you're not sure if you're gay or straight but you should just pick straight". And inwardly, I kinda did. However, now I'm thinking that many of what I interrupted as squishes might have been plain old crushes on women.

[Busrider]

On ‎21‎.‎03‎.‎2017 at 4:52 AM, Konfuzd said:

my own understanding is in contrast with associates I've come across who tell me "I wouldn't date a trans [person/insert gender]" or something else to that same effect. This thinking, depending on how you frame it, is borderline to boldly transphobic-- though most will not admit to it. In actuality,

1. when you are attracted to a person sexually and/or aesthetically, their genitalia is not placed amongst the rest of their physicalities in that moment.
2. Thus, odds are, you will be or have been attracted to a trans person without knowing it, and ending all interests in that person upon acquiring that knowledge is inherently transphobic. 

I'm male and for that reason tempted to disagree.

1. I assume sexual attraction towards a female presentation includes a dream of access to a generic sexually usable vagina and all forms of asexuality / chastity, female circumcision and transsexuality one might encounter would be pretty disappointing. - There seem to be more prosthetic options to turn a female body into a makeshift guy than the other way round (but I am comparing apples and oranges based upon fading memories & hearsay).
2. I'd call it "sex driven" instead of transphobic.

I haven't made up my mind about my own POV & needs in that scene. - Maybe I'll be fine with anybody AFAB from my end. Maybe I'll get along with an asexual relationship to a trans person. - I am not sure about the latter for practical reasons. Since I am lazy I am maintaining a pretty low standard of living which can maybe get mirrored / shared by a frump but I seriously worry about the demands of maintaining a ladylike presentation faced by transgirls, who seem challenged to go for low maintenance tomboy and stay in character. - YMMV & I am clueless.

[Konfuzd]

The fact is that your sexual attraction led to the sexual desire. Whatever "sex driven" transphobia comes after that point is socially defined. The disappointment itself is not really transphobic, but allowing yourself to conflate a "different" sexual experience to a negative sexual experience is.

[Konfuzd]

2 hours ago, Busrider said:

I haven't made up my mind about my own POV & needs in that scene. - Maybe I'll be fine with anybody AFAB from my end. Maybe I'll get along with an asexual relationship to a trans person. - I am not sure about the latter for practical reasons. Since I am lazy I am maintaining a pretty low standard of living which can maybe get mirrored / shared by a frump but I seriously worry about the demands of maintaining a ladylike presentation faced by transgirls, who seem challenged to go for low maintenance tomboy and stay in character. - YMMV & I am clueless

I honestly don't understand what you're saying here. 

[Busrider]

I am still traumatized by some ex' princess side. Cases like: After agreeing to be somewhere at *insert time* the previous day, we could not make it in a timely fashion since we had to wait for the long royal hair to dry naturally(!). Another time she insisted on smearing the equivalent of a minor Rembrandt on her face first. I also know people who commute by car not bicycle for their hairdo's sake.

[Konfuzd]

@Busrider

Are you implying that it will be hard for you to be a relationship with a transgirl given how hard it is to upkeep a "ladylike" presentation?

[Busrider]

@Konfuzd Yes, I see that as a potential pitfall. But: I am mostly clueless + have been out of the dating / relationship business for quite a while now. Other people will surely fear different problems.

[Konfuzd]

Well, first of all not all trans women are feminine. But ultimately, yes, that seems like a minor issue to be wary of, especially considering that all feminine women will usually take some time to maintain a more "ladylike" presentation, as you say.