ithaca

A message about AVEN's values

213 posts in this topic

I agree with not contradicting specific individuals when they make statements about their own sexual orientation or gender identity. I have no objections to those two sections of the statement of AVEN's values at the beginning of this thread.

 

I disagree strongly with the attraction based definition unless attraction is being used as a synonym for desire for partnered sex, in which case I agree but think the definition could be clearer and more succinct. If someone thinks they are asexual when they obviously aren't, we can't contradict them. Fine. But why are they confused in the first place? It's probably because they have just read the super confusing and endlessly expanding list of definitions on AVEN. AVEN lists about fifty different flavors of "asexuals", most of which are actually very common variations on typical sexuality. So I am not going to argue that we should be able to assign sexual orientation labels to other people. I am, however, going to argue that we fix the definitions section of AVEN so that we are not the ones actively confusing newbies.

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Not even marginally helpful.  

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3 hours ago, Still said:

Gotta love people throwing themselves on the cross and posting these "I'm leaving" diatribes.

 

Seriously, just log out and never come back if you feel like it, posting those always just makes you look stupid when you start posting again - and let's face it, you will.

Mysticus is someone who always posted interesting, thoughtful, and very valuable contributions to the discussions that happen here, but they've almost completely stopped posting now (compared to how much they used to) as a result of.. well, a lot of the issues with the current state of AVEN. Let's face it, AVEN is now pretty much just a tumblr blog about asexuality with a more official name. There are a lot of people here who very much care whether or not Mysticus stays or goes. You might not care,  but  many of the rest of us would rather know than having Myst just disappear without saying anything.

 

3 hours ago, McFace Owly Owl said:

"User X: I think I might be asexual. But I don't know. I kind of like sex with people, enough to go out to bars and find hookups. But, I just don't like it as much as people around me and I never really see people as "hot"."

 

"Well, only you can decide if you are asexual or not. But, personally, if I wanted sex enough to go find hookups at the bars, I would not consider myself asexual. Depending on how often and other factors, I might use grey-a, maybe (link to information on grey). Sexuality is a very varied experience, so there is nothing wrong with not being "as sexual" as people you know, even if you ultimately decide asexual or grey-a don't fit. Give a look around and read some stories, see what you relate to. I would also suggest Swankivy's youtube channel, it has a lot of good information. "


What would be breaching ToS would be "Uh, no, you're not asexual. You're sexual." 

See there's a really foggy line here.

 

I'd respond that sounds no different than any other sexual who enjoys sex enough to seek it out at bars and who places no real value on the appearance of sex partners.. there are plenty of sexual people like that. However, that's the sort of thing I've been getting nudged for recently; pointing out things that are very common among sexual people (losing interest in sex with age and with familiarity being another) ...So yeah, there's a serious issue here that isn't actually being addressed and everyone's just tip-toeing around it. People in general here get really, really upset when you try to bring up "normal sexuality" in response to someone saying "I desire sex but only when in love..." or "I seek sex out because I enjoy but I don't care if I never have it again..." or "I don't find anyone hot but I'll still have sex with them..." etc, even if you're not actually saying "you're not asexual" in those words, you're just trying to explain how there are plenty of sexual people like that. This site is really against the accurate representation of normal sexuality, because it immediately means that 1) many people here wouldn't actually be "asexual" or 2) there are a LOT of asexuals.. like 40-60% of the population at the very least, which would kind of render the asexual label totally meaningless.

 

Not necessarily breaking TOS, but it's still invalidating "asexual identities" to say there are lots of sexual people exactly like that... so we instead invalidate normal sexuality in the favour of validating the whole "anyone who wants to be asexual is asexual" thing. Meh.

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2 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

I agree with not contradicting specific individuals when they make statements about their own sexual orientation or gender identity. I have no objections to those two sections of the statement of AVEN's values at the beginning of this thread.

 

I disagree strongly with the attraction based definition unless attraction is being used as a synonym for desire for partnered sex, in which case I agree but think the definition could be clearer and more succinct. If someone thinks they are asexual when they obviously aren't, we can't contradict them. Fine. But why are they confused in the first place? It's probably because they have just read the super confusing and endlessly expanding list of definitions on AVEN. AVEN lists about fifty different flavors of "asexuals", most of which are actually very common variations on typical sexuality. So I am not going to argue that we should be able to assign sexual orientation labels to other people. I am, however, going to argue that we fix the definitions section of AVEN so that we are not the ones actively confusing newbies.

Just quoting for emphasis because yeah, that. That's what I meant by "not being a site about education". We are actively contributing towards confusion as to what asexuality is and is not and spreading misinformation about normal sexuality by trying to say it's almost all variants of asexuality of some type or another, unless you have a high libido and want to bang all the people who you find attractive - then you're definitely sexual: If you don't want to bang all the people you find attractive, or want to bang people despite not finding them attractive, you're totally on the "ace spectrum"...

 

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24 minutes ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

 

 

See there's a really foggy line here.

 

I'd respond that sounds no different than any other sexual who enjoys sex enough to seek it out at bars and who places no real value on the appearance of sex partners.. there are plenty of sexual people like that. However, that's the sort of thing I've been getting nudged for recently; pointing out things that are very common among sexual people (losing interest in sex with age and with familiarity being another) ...So yeah, there's a serious issue here that isn't actually being addressed and everyone's just tip-toeing around it. People in general here get really, really upset when you try to bring up "normal sexuality" in response to someone saying "I desire sex but only when in love..." or "I seek sex out because I enjoy but I don't care if I never have it again..." or "I don't find anyone hot but I'll still have sex with them..." etc, even if you're not actually saying "you're not asexual" in those words, you're just trying to explain how there are plenty of sexual people like that. This site is really against the accurate representation of normal sexuality, because it immediately means that 1) many people here wouldn't actually be "asexual" or 2) there are a LOT of asexuals.. like 40-60% of the population at the very least, which would kind of render the asexual label totally meaningless.

 

Not necessarily breaking TOS, but it's still invalidating "asexual identities" to say there are lots of sexual people exactly like that... so we instead invalidate normal sexuality in the favour of validating the whole "anyone who wants to be asexual is asexual" thing. Meh.

If you say "I know plenty of sexuals who also feel..." imo should not be receiving any sort of action, if you do, I'd bring it up in site comments? Though, if you say "You just sound like a normal sexual", that can be seen as labeling. But, I have not seen your nudges or the threads behind them, so I can't speculate as to the reason. Have you asked the moderator who sent them to elaborate and provide example rewording for how to say basically the same thing, but without breaching their rules? If so, did they provide it?

 

Though, the debate of "was this labeling or not" might be best in site comments, anyway.

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9 hours ago, ithaca said:

My part (and the Board's part) in this was also just to remind everyone (old and new) of what our most important values of inclusion and respect are.

And my part was to voice a final and unambiguous conscientious objection to those values, because I most certainly do not and will not share them, nor let them stand unopposed and unchallenged... and to prepare my permanent leave*, when those values have, in the name of the Head Honchos, now been declared core, basic and - worst of all - unchangeable. It is my firm conviction that these values are the root of much of AVEN's problems, that they will continue to lead to its decline, and that they stand in the way of the mission of visibility and educaton; if there is no hope for getting these problems addressed, the only logical conclusion is to wash my hands of AVEN, preserveing my own integrity when I perceive AVEN's as irrevocably lost. 

 

Thankfully, AVEN is just some random website and not a nation state - emigration is easy and carries no physical or economic risk. ;):D

 

I can just hope for the ideology espoused by the BoD not to spread any further (and especially not into LGBT+ spaces!), and stay confined to this internet ghetto... but either way, it's out of my hands. You do you, bro's... as long as you do it far, far away from me. #NIMBY #NotMyAVEN #NotWithMyVoice

 

 

* The admods can confirm that my request is pending, for those oh-so-smart commenters who snark about how I'll be back... yeah, sorry, maybe other people moving in the circles you know don't have a spine, but my own does remain upright and unbent. On my word of honor, I will not be back - past March 31, you guys are forever on your own. 

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I'm sure we'll manage...

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*gives the green name girl a cookie*  

 

There, there. Mummy and daddy sure are proud at you all grown up! :lol:

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Aven should not change its core values just because a few people are threatening to leave. These values have always been in place and should remain as they are. When I joined the site in 2011, you'd have received a backlash by the community for suggesting we start telling somebody how to identify. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

See there's a really foggy line here.

 

I'd respond that sounds no different than any other sexual who enjoys sex enough to seek it out at bars and who places no real value on the appearance of sex partners.. there are plenty of sexual people like that. However, that's the sort of thing I've been getting nudged for recently; pointing out things that are very common among sexual people (losing interest in sex with age and with familiarity being another) ...So yeah, there's a serious issue here that isn't actually being addressed and everyone's just tip-toeing around it. People in general here get really, really upset when you try to bring up "normal sexuality" in response to someone saying "I desire sex but only when in love..." or "I seek sex out because I enjoy but I don't care if I never have it again..." or "I don't find anyone hot but I'll still have sex with them..." etc, even if you're not actually saying "you're not asexual" in those words, you're just trying to explain how there are plenty of sexual people like that. This site is really against the accurate representation of normal sexuality, because it immediately means that 1) many people here wouldn't actually be "asexual" or 2) there are a LOT of asexuals.. like 40-60% of the population at the very least, which would kind of render the asexual label totally meaningless.

 

Not necessarily breaking TOS, but it's still invalidating "asexual identities" to say there are lots of sexual people exactly like that... so we instead invalidate normal sexuality in the favour of validating the whole "anyone who wants to be asexual is asexual" thing. Meh.

If one isn't even allowed to compare "regular sexual behaviour" to whatever behaviour the poster of the question brings up without getting sanctioned, then... yeah. How else is one supposed to give advice? If that's the standard, I'd suggest to just leave out the "E" and make this a purple chatterbox altogether.

 

There's one thing that bothers me considering the "Only you can decide" discussion. At the end of the day we're just random people on the internet and if someone decides to call themselves ace in RL despite all the arrows pointing in the opposite direction, there's nothing anyone on here can ever do about it (except they know this person in RL, of course). I always considered the phrase "Only you can decide" as "Only you can truly judge whether this information applies to you, because only you are you", rather than "Only you can decide what it means to be ace for you". I believe that this gets mixed up a lot. "Only you can decide" is not inherently wrong.

 

I remember someone asking if they were ace because they only think about sex when they're aroused. Don't get me wrong, it's a legitimate question. Just how are AVEN people supposed to guide such a person to an answer if they're not even allowed to say "That's regular sexual folks' behaviour"? How is that ever going to work?

 

 

Besides that, I'm worried about the decline of vocal sexuals on here. Now that Skulls has left and Tele isn't all that active anymore, AVEN lacks actual insight. I mean yeah, I could copy and paste (or rephrase) what they might say, but that doesn't really cut it in my book.

 

AVEN is in desperate need of actual sexual people's input.

Spoiler

(Shutting down dumblr might also be of some benefit :D)

 

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12 minutes ago, Ciri said:

Aven should not change its core values just because a few people are threatening to leave. These values have always been in place and should remain as they are. When I joined the site in 2011, you'd have received a backlash by the community for suggesting we start telling somebody how to identify. 

1) I'm not threatening to leave, I am leaving. This thread has shown me that there simply is no hope for AVEN to get its shit together, and that the only thing I can do is to leave that ship instead of going down with it while fighting for a hopeless cause.

 

 

2) The BoD is indeed free to do as they please, and to set the core values as they please. The fact that I resignatingly accept this to be the case is a key part in why I am leaving AVEN.

 

(Heck, even if they wanted to, say, make this place only useable for White Anglo-Saxon Christians who voted for Trump, deciding that you ain't wanted here if you don't fit that target roster, that would 100% absolutely be their right to do, no matter how many people here would protest against it, and/or would leave AVEN over it. Funnily enough, a lot of the passive-aggressive posters in this thread right here would be the first in line rushing for the door because of the bad, bigoted meanies daring to enforce values... :rolleyes:). Being set by the BoD does not automatically make a value good, constructive, or logically consistent. It just makes it a value. (Yes, Racial Purity/White Supremacy, and considering non-cishet identities as unnatural and sinful are values, too - they merely happen to be the kind of values 99% of AVENites, myself and the BoD included, disagree with.)

 

And if disavowment of values you firmly disagree with, up to and including the point where one physically distances oneself from places and organizations where such values are espoused, is beginning to be a thing not to be accepted on here - well, congrats, AVEN - you folks may pat yourselves on the back for still continuing to ban words starting with N, F, and K, but you have nonetheless become unapologetic fascists, who just happen to personally have nothing against the usual suspects that most other prominent fascists dislike. So proud of you for being all liberal and enlightened, because heck, you obviously totes like blacks, Jews, and the LGBT! *slow clap*

 

If there is one thing I absolutely have no respect, nor tolerance, nor forgiveness for, it's unapologetic hypocrisy. Come the fuck off it, folks.

 

 

3) Just because someone is the minority, doesn't mean they're wrong.

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3 minutes ago, Homer said:

Besides that, I'm worried about the decline of vocal sexuals on here. Now that Skulls has left and Tele isn't all that active anymore, AVEN lacks actual insight. I mean yeah, I could copy and paste (or rephrase) what they might say, but that doesn't really cut it in my book.

 

AVEN is in desperate need of actual sexual people's input.

I'm not gonna lie. Skulls leaving - much as I obviously understand her and follow in her slightly-less-pottymouthed footsteps, was lowering the lid on the coffin that this thread now nailed shut.

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Aven are apparently facist for allowing people to decide how to label themselves or not... hm...

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I'm not leaving! Where's my cookie?!

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5 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

I'm not leaving! Where's my cookie?!

You can have mine :P

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Just now, sea-lemon said:

You can have mine :P

Thanks, but it's probably laced with condescension of the original gifter so I'll pass :lol:

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1 hour ago, Homer said:

AVEN is in desperate need of actual sexual people's input.

I don't identify as asexual anymore, as I've come to realise there are certain sexual acts I may enjoy enough to actively choose to have them for pleasure. I'd been questioning whether or not I was ace for quite some time, despite having no desire to actually have sex (edit, I do desire it to some extent now, I didn't when I'd first started questioning whether I was ace or just "weird" lol)  and not caring if I never have it again. However I don't think I'm sexual "enough" for most people here to really give two hoots about what I have to say on the matter :P

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2 minutes ago, sea-lemon said:

You can have mine :P

^

To be fair, this post did make me chuckle.

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1 minute ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

However I don't think I'm sexual "enough" for most people here to really give two hoots about what I have to say on the matter :P

Well that's the people's fault, not yours. I can still decide what I think of your input after reading it.

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I'm sexual and I think things occasionally! Like... uh... I'm thirsty. I want tea. See?

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I said what I had to say about the original post, but what is this hread now about?

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Just now, chair jockey said:

I said what I had to say about the original post, but what is this hread now about?

Dramatic departures and calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

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I'm not gonna say someone can't ID how they want, but AVEN (and ace communities/resources in general) has a problem of whenever someone says "am I asexual" the answer is always "yes" (or "maybe not but here's 10 sexualities which would fit you!")

 

Words aren't meant to be entirely inclusive, otherwise definitions are useless. 

 

I understand not allowing "no you're not asexual" but very few people seem to say "I don't think that sounds like asexuality because X, why would you think that you're asexual/different from non aces?" 

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1 minute ago, Mystic Maya said:

Dramatic departures and calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

 

Is there a bus stop nearby? I'll go wherever the bus happens to be going. I'm easy to get along with that way.

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4 minutes ago, Mystic Maya said:

Dramatic departures and calling Aven fascist for letting people choose their own labels

Please read again.

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Just now, Homer said:

Please read again.

 

I apologize for being sarcastic, but do I have to? The topic drift calls for dynamite-style thread splitting.

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1 minute ago, Homer said:

Please read again.

Re reading it doesn't change my opinion

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Yet nobody ever said that AVEN is fascist for letting people choose their own labels. Where exactly did that happen?

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6 minutes ago, Homer said:

Yet nobody ever said that AVEN is fascist for letting people choose their own labels. Where exactly did that happen?

Mysticus literally called Aven "unapologetic fascists" because of this topic

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* misclick/empty message, please delete *

Edited by Mysticus Insanus

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