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    • Kisa the Cat

      Avenues May/June   05/09/17

      Hello AVENites! The newest edition of AVENues is now ready! Our theme this time was "ace connections".  May/June
Fitzsimmons ♡

A message about AVEN's values

213 posts in this topic

Also, sorry to see you go, @Mysticus Insanus:( 

 

If I parted ways with everyone in my life with whom I had irreconcilable differences, I'd have no one left. :D But I understand. Take care.

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Back. Do you really think you can know someone else's sexual orientation? You can know how they behave, and that can give you indirect clues, but only they have real knowledge of what's inside them. Nobody should think that observing another person is the same as experiencing being them. That's the most horrible trap in human relations. Thanks for a chance to say this.

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3 hours ago, chair jockey said:

Back. Do you really think you can know someone else's sexual orientation? You can know how they behave, and that can give you indirect clues, but only they have real knowledge of what's inside them. Nobody should think that observing another person is the same as experiencing being them. That's the most horrible trap in human relations. Thanks for a chance to say this.

People like myself aren't trying to label someone else's sexual orientation, but attempting (in the face of massive opposition lol) to accurately define an extreme minority orientation in the hopes it will eventually be taken seriously by the vast majority of the population.

 

Do people think homosexuality would now be taken seriously if gay rights activists from back in the day walked around with signs saying "gay is whatever you want it to be!" "gay is how every individual defines it!" "gay is when a man only desires sex with women. That's how I define it and that's okay!" ... and that was really their only official stance when it comes to defining their sexual orientation? That was all they were really allowed to say without risking being banned from activism meetings and support groups where they met to discuss their sexual orientation? "I understand I can't define homosexuality for anyone else.. for me it means that as a man, I only desire sex with women. The gay label really fits me because I like to wear pink shirts and I get shit from hetero guys for that, so yeah I'm gay" .. 

 

We aren't trying to define others. We are trying to define asexuality in the hopes of having the world take it seriously, because (for asexuals, and their sexual partners, and for unidentified asexuals who have never heard of asexuality) asexuality can be extremely, extremely painful.. Asexuals are often left feeling broken, confused, like freaks, and utterly alone. Not desiring sex in a world where most people desire it, especially in relationships, can be really, really difficult for asexuals. Then you get someone saying "well I love sex and I'm asexual lol, asexual is anything you want it to be" that totally undermines the suffering asexuals experience and kind of makes it pointless for them to even bother labelling themselves. They'll say to a sexual person "well, a relationship wouldn't work for us because I'm asexual, I have no desire for sexual intimacy" and that sexual will laugh and say "well there are heaps of asexuals who love sex, have you visited tumblr? There must be something else wrong with you but you're not asexual" or "oooh you're one of those special snowflakes lol, you'll want sex eventually believe me" (that's the one I see the most often when asexuality is brought up in forums with predominantly sexual commenters.. by now most of them have seen tumblr ace videos trying to explain the "ace spectrum" which includes almost every way a sexual person can be and somehow thinks they're all asexual - I've seen lots of asexual spectrum lists like that on AVEN too.. stemming from a massive misunderstanding of normal sexuality, pretty much)

 

So yeah. We're not trying to define what others are. We are trying to define what asexuality is. There is a difference though many seem to have a hard time recognising that difference.

 

Homosexuality is when a man only desires sex with women.

 

Heterosexuality is when a woman only desires sex with other women.

 

Bisexuality is when someone doesn't desire sex with anyone regardless of gender.

 

Asexuality is when someone desires sex with anyone regardless of gender.

 

That's about the way things stand on AVEN.

 

@Homer I'll maybe make a separate thread later on in the day to reply to your question so as not to derail this one. :cake: 

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

People like myself aren't trying to label someone else's sexual orientation, but attempting (in the face of massive opposition lol) to accurately define an extreme minority orientation in the hopes it will eventually be taken seriously by the vast majority of the population.

 

Do people think homosexuality would now be taken seriously if gay rights activists from back in the day walked around with signs saying "gay is whatever you want it to be!" "gay is how every individual defines it!" "gay is when a man only desires sex with women. That's how I define it and that's okay!" ...

 

We aren't trying to define others. We are trying to define asexuality in the hopes of having the world take it seriously, because (for asexuals, and their sexual partners, and for unidentified asexuals who have never heard of asexuality) asexuality can be extremely, extremely painful.. Asexuals are often left feeling broken, confused, like freaks, and utterly alone. Not desiring sex in a world where most people desire it, especially in relationships, can be really, really difficult for asexuals. Then you get someone saying "well I love sex and I'm asexual lol, asexual is anything you want it to be" that totally undermines the suffering asexuals experience and kind of makes it pointless for them to even bother labelling themselves. They'll say to a sexual person "well, a relationship wouldn't work for us because I'm asexual, I have no desire for sexual intimacy" and that sexual will laugh and say "well there are heaps of asexuals who love sex, have you visited tumblr? There must be something else wrong with you but you're not asexual" or "oooh you're one of those special snowflakes lol, you'll want sex eventually believe me" (that's the one I see the most often when asexuality is brought up in forums with predominantly sexual commenters.. by now most of them have seen tumblr ace videos trying to explain the "ace spectrum" which includes almost every way a sexual person can be and somehow thinks they're all asexual - I've seen lots of asexual spectrum lists like that on AVEN too.. stemming from a massive misunderstanding of normal sexuality, pretty much)

 

So yeah. We're not trying to define what others are. We are trying to define what asexuality is. There is a difference though many seem to have a hard time recognising that difference.

 

Homosexuality is when a man only desires sex with women.

 

Heterosexuality is when a woman only desires sex with other women.

 

Bisexuality is when someone doesn't desire sex with anyone regardless of gender.

 

Asexuality is when someone desires sex with anyone regardless of gender.

 

That's about the way things stand on AVEN.

 

@Homer I'll maybe make a separate thread later on in the day to reply to your question so as not to derail this one. :cake: 

 
 
6

You probably have bi and ace the wrong way:rolleyes: (oh, also homo and hetero)

 

P.S: I'm a bit too tired, realized that it was intentional just now:wacko:

Edited by Togee
Realized the point too late
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5 minutes ago, Togee said:

You probably have bi and ace the wrong way:rolleyes: (oh, also homo and hetero)

Wait so you're saying a homosexual guy would by definition only desire sex with men? And a heterosexual guy would by definition only desire sex with women? *gasp*

 

Edit: I just saw your edit, I thought you were being sarcastic I didn't realise you'd actually thought I was serious, haha

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Just now, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

Wait so you're saying a homosexual guy would by definition only desire sex with men? And a heterosexual guy would by definition only desire sex with women? *gasp*

 

Just edited right before you posted. I'm too tired, I think everything is serious:unsure:

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Maybe we should get back on track, rather than derailing it with definition debates. That argument could be taken elsewhere now.

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2 hours ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

 I'll maybe make a separate thread later on in the day to reply to your question so as not to derail this one. :cake: 

:cake: I figured it'd be best to ask here since you're not into PMs. Thank you :) 

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2 hours ago, Tal Shi'ar said:

Maybe we should get back on track, rather than derailing it with definition debates. That argument could be taken elsewhere now.

Well this isn't actually a definition debate. We're specifically referring back to the topic of the OP which is "anyone who wants to be asexual is asexual and no one can attempt to correct someone who may be misidentifying themselves based on confusion over defintions as this would go against our values here at AVEN". The discussion is about those certain "values" AVEN has which while people may THINK those values are wonderful because they're all-inclusive, totally accepting, etc etc, certain aspects of those values are only doing harm to the prospect of asexuality eventually being accepted as a legitimate sexual orientation by the rest of the world, and those values are also harming efforts at actual education about asexuality (despite the fact that this site is apparently about asexuality education)..

 

I say again, this site isn't actually called the asexuality visibility and DISCUSSION network, but that's what it is, a discussion and speculation network.. Politically correct discussions have been chosen in place of actual education about asexuality. So yeah, that's what my comments are getting at. This site isn't about education, because saying "a gay man is a man who only desires sex with women" is NOT education.. Yet we are expected to say the exact same thing about asexuality and expect this place to be taken seriously as a site about education (it's in the name of the website after all).

 

Some of the 'values' discussed in the OP are harming asexuality visibility and education.. That's the issue being discussed.

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25 minutes ago, ℃å℞t☉☧hℹĿẹ• said:

Well this isn't actually a definition debate. We're specifically referring back to the topic of the OP which is "anyone who wants to be asexual is asexual and no one can attempt to correct someone who may be misidentifying themselves based on confusion over defintions as this would go against our values here at AVEN". The discussion is about those certain "values" AVEN has which while people may THINK those values are wonderful because they're all-inclusive, totally accepting, etc etc, certain aspects of those values are only doing harm to the prospect of asexuality eventually being accepted as a legitimate sexual orientation by the rest of the world, and those values are also harming efforts at actual education about asexuality (despite the fact that this site is apparently about asexuality education)..

 

I say again, this site isn't actually called the asexuality visibility and DISCUSSION network, but that's what it is, a discussion and speculation network.. Politically correct discussions have been chosen in place of actual education about asexuality. So yeah, that's what my comments are getting at. This site isn't about education, because saying "a gay man is a man who only desires sex with women" is NOT education.. Yet we are expected to say the exact same thing about asexuality and expect this place to be taken seriously as a site about education (it's in the name of the website after all).

 

Some of the 'values' discussed in the OP are harming asexuality visibility and education.. That's the issue being discussed.

Bada-bing, bada-bam.

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I only use this as a social site but I'm a sucker for internet drama, so if someone could point me in the direction of the original drama that prompted this it'd be much appreciated.

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I would rather have an inclusive definition where you can't label people while still being able to challenge them than a dogmatic one which would probably lead to people being run off the site. 

 

 

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I'm all for constructive dialogue here, rather than letting misunderstandings go unchallenged and/or lecturing diatribes ad nauseum. And ultimately AVEN should make it clear that regardless of differences, or the end result of someone's exploration of sexual identity, they're welcome here. One-way answers aren't very educational for issues that are centered around our most personal experiences and emotions. There's a lot for a person to explore, and turning every personal inquiry into the same elaborate debate is not constructive. It's a deeply personal issue. We can offer our wisdom and experience when relevant without turning it into the same elaborate argument.

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I have very similar feelings to Myst. The values are... they do not support themselves. they collapse upon themselves in application. They are values which a fool holds. 

 

not that the idea which inspires the values are bad - liking to be supportive of others is a very strong value. but taking it as far as AVEN has it... 

 

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Ironically as long as AVEN holds its values and people like me, myst, and pan leave it behind because it's too depressing to see AVEN destroy itself. this will enforce those values huehuehue what a master plan!

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Just now, lIIIIIllIIlI said:

Ironically as long as AVEN holds its values and people like me, myst, and pan leave it behind because it's too depressing to see AVEN destroy itself. this will enforce those values huehuehue what a master plan!

if you and cartophile leave then I will seriously consider leaving too

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4 minutes ago, CakeSpadeAce said:

if you and cartophile leave then I will seriously consider leaving too

yes. this is a problem. this is not healthy. This is one- and note, only one - of the many problems with the statements expressed in the OP. 

 

I would not be a good person to discuss them as I will rant and be triggered and start to yell and make everyone unhappy with me. while making no sense whatsoever. 

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"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." (Spock)

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7 minutes ago, timewarp said:

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." (Spock)

hm.. I would advise realizing that - there are times in which there is no "right" response. The needs of the many deserve to be met, and the needs of the few deserve to be met. so there is no "right response" if you can only respond one way. 

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There is a difference in giving people your two cents when they are asking for guidance and to be pushy and give your opinion where it's not wanted about people's personal experience. From what I have seen it has gone beyond just telling people who ask straight out for advice and that is totally uncool to me. 
I also doubt that the OP means discouraging people from giving guidance and advice when desired but to say that it is good to keep in mind that a person does decide on their own and that you can't label someone else.
It's not about being politically correct for some 'just because' reasoning it's about showing respect and to not make people feel like shit and like they are not welcome if they choose not to conform to someone else's view on their identity. It's about them and not about anyone else. So I don't think there needs to be some line drawn where one should intervene when someone says they are asexual. 
Everyone should be able to be in the same space comfortably enough on this site even if there is this discussion and pondering on the definition of asexual. 

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Speaking on a personal level (meaning without passing through the Board), people are right when they understand that we can't label other people on AVEN. We can share our experiences, share the knowledge we have, etc (as the OP says), but we can't tell someone what their identity is or isn't. They might later realise they actually identify as something else (it happens to many), but it is their journey at their own pace, not ours to set. In case there is actually someone who would like to tell people "You are X" or "No, you are not Y", I do think they should look elsewhere in order to do that, as AVEN is not the place.

 

I believe from personal experience and years of observation and study, that those saying that the current status quo "harms education" are quite wrong, considering the massive steps forward in scientific research, media coverage, alliances with other organisation (including the life saving Trevor Project) and the discussions already happening around introducing asexuality in the sex ed curricula in several places. And that's just a limited number of examples.

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OP, I feel like policing what members can and can't say to other members in such a general fashion isn't helping inclusivity. Surely, as and when actual incidents arise, it's up to the thread/subforum mod(s) to sort that out. The site does welcome all, I mean we have a section for sexual partners/allies after all.

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1 hour ago, Joe Parrish said:

Bada-bing, bada-bam.

I was under the impression it was bada boom :ph34r:

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4 minutes ago, ithaca said:

In case there is actually someone who would like to tell people "You are X" or "No, you are not Y", I do think they should look elsewhere in order to do that, as AVEN is not the place.

 

 

The thing is people do come here asking to be told whether they're asexual or not, so by that logic that's also not a question that members can ask.

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Just now, cluebat said:

The thing is people do come here asking to be told whether they're asexual or not, so by that logic that's also not a question that members can ask.

People can ask, and always do, it's up to us more experienced members to welcome them to their journey in the right way, without labelling them left and right. Yes, sometimes new members make mistakes and do label others, and the Admod Team knows how to deal with it, and knows to let new people know how to best approach these questions. Members have usually learned not to do it twice.

 

It is part of our job and volunteers' job to help creating the right environment, eventually, making sure we all learn the ways of this community. My part (and the Board's part) in this was also just to remind everyone (old and new) of what our most important values of inclusion and respect are.

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"You're not Asexual." <- Not OK. 

 

"That's an interesting way to experience your (a)sexuality. You can find more information on Asexuality here (link), it also includes information on other sexualities and experiences. Perhaps you could give it a read :) " <- OK. 

 

One invalidates the other persons feelings and experiences. The other is educational.  It is important that everybody figures out their identity at their own pace. What happens when somebody pushes a new member out of the asexual community by telling them they aren't Asexual, then they later fully identify as such? We've just pushed somebody out of a great community where they could have received support. 

 

Its a case of your experience = your experience. Not anybody else's. 

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I don't see how it's so difficult to give helpful answers that don't violate the "only you can decide" rule. If someone describes something incompatible with asexuality you can say "a lot of sexual people also experience that" which is in no way telling a person what their orientation is. Suggesting that people look further into helpful resources is, well, trying to be helpful.

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Just now, Snow Cone said:

I don't see how it's so difficult to give helpful answers that don't violate the "only you can decide" rule. 

I know right, AVEN's been doing for what, 15 years now?

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Gotta love people throwing themselves on the cross and posting these "I'm leaving" diatribes.

 

Seriously, just log out and never come back if you feel like it, posting those always just makes you look stupid when you start posting again - and let's face it, you will.

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19 minutes ago, ithaca said:

I know right, AVEN's been doing for what, 15 years now?

I think what people are reacting to is they think this is changing, making it more strict, etc. Rather than just reinforcing what is already there. Perhaps a clarification of what spurred this post would help? 

 

Example of how to question, without breaching the labeling rule:

 

"User X: I think I might be asexual. But I don't know. I kind of like sex with people, enough to go out to bars and find hookups. But, I just don't like it as much as people around me and I never really see people as "hot"."

 

"Well, only you can decide if you are asexual or not. But, personally, if I wanted sex enough to go find hookups at the bars, I would not consider myself asexual. Depending on how often and other factors, I might use grey-a, maybe (link to information on grey). Sexuality is a very varied experience, so there is nothing wrong with not being "as sexual" as people you know, even if you ultimately decide asexual or grey-a don't fit. Give a look around and read some stories, see what you relate to. I would also suggest Swankivy's youtube channel, it has a lot of good information. "


What would be breaching ToS would be "Uh, no, you're not asexual. You're sexual." 

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