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Antinatalism


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SorryNotSorry

Antinatalism sounds like a modern incarnation of ZPG (Zero Population Growth) which was around in the 1970s and 80s.

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1 hour ago, Woodworker1968 said:

Antinatalism sounds like a modern incarnation of ZPG (Zero Population Growth) which was around in the 1970s and 80s.

Kind of like China's family planning policy with couples being limited to one, maximum, two children?

It'sunpopularity is understandable given the political compulsion. Forcing people is rarely a good way to go. But I think that Schopenhauers philosophy is older, however, than the idea of ZPG? Or that the idea has received a boost in the 1970s and adopted a radical form of politics? 

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Lord Jade Cross

Since humans are the judge, the jury and the executioner of their ideals, morality is always an arbitrary game. As are its implied consequences; so we could argue until the end of our existence and we will never reach an agreement (unless we superimpose the ideal on a wolrdwide scale)

 

The question, I feel is more important is, where exactly are humans aiming to go? 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm familiar with Arthur Schopenhauer and David Benatar on the topic, and I'd also suggest reading Peter Wessel Zapffe. Zapffe was an early twentieth century Norwegian philosopher who originated the concept of the existential crisis. He thinks that human consciousness overflows its bounds, by enabling us to contemplate the meaning of our existence and our mortality. And he thinks that we can't provide a satisfactory answer, so human existence is characterized by various unsatisfactory defence mechanisms designed to enable us to avoid thinking about these issues. This leads him to argue that it would be better for us to forgo procreation, so that the human species will peacefully die out.

 

I'm not sure which way to go on this issue, but it strikes me as a difficult one and one that deserves more attention than people are usually willing to give it. I'm also interested in Buddhism, which holds that life is suffering, and so one might wonder if by that philosophy it would be better for us to avoid having children.

 

I'm conflicted. It's not something I really want to argue but I find there is some plausibility to it.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.

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I don't really subscribe to the more philosophical parts of antinatalism, but I do believe that in this day and age it's morally wrong to procreate, at least if you're in a developed country. This world has more than enough people in it already and procreation needs to be controlled in some way for this world to have a chance. Not everyone needs to have children (in fact, it's far better for the world if more people decide not to) and many of our ideas about having children are outdated and come from an era where infant mortality was more of a thing.

 

Can't wait for the ensuing shitstorm :ph34r:

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NoLongerActive1234
7 hours ago, Still said:

I don't really subscribe to the more philosophical parts of antinatalism, but I do believe that in this day and age it's morally wrong to procreate, at least if you're in a developed country. This world has more than enough people in it already and procreation needs to be controlled in some way for this world to have a chance. Not everyone needs to have children (in fact, it's far better for the world if more people decide not to) and many of our ideas about having children are outdated and come from an era where infant mortality was more of a thing.

 

Can't wait for the ensuing shitstorm :ph34r:

If you think it is morally wrong do you think it should be followed up with consequences? Do you think we're at that stage where it's such a big problem of overpopulation that there ought to be regulations on having children?
Would it be the same to you if it was a reversed scenario-if humanity was suffering with low population would it be morally wrong to not want to have children and if so should there be rules that one should have children?

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29 minutes ago, MistySpring said:

If you think it is morally wrong do you think it should be followed up with consequences? Do you think we're at that stage where it's such a big problem of overpopulation that there ought to be regulations on having children?
Would it be the same to you if it was a reversed scenario-if humanity was suffering with low population would it be morally wrong to not want to have children and if so should there be rules that one should have children?

 

I don't think overpopulation is the problem as much as children born nowadays most likely living longer and using more resources than previous generations, combined with the weird hysteria over falling birth rates in developed countries. Plus, any kid born now is going to grow up in an even more uncertain world. No, we're not at that point IMO because of said falling birth rates - even getting rid of this culture that glorifies having kids and stigmatizes those who choose not to would go a long way. Maybe saying that I think giving birth is morally wrong isn't really correct, though; I just see it as a selfish act while many people view not having children as selfish.

 

I don't think anyone should be forced to have children under any conditions. If humanity gets to that point, maybe it's time for it to die off. Everything eventually does come to an end, after all.

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NoLongerActive1234
28 minutes ago, Still said:

 

I don't think overpopulation is the problem as much as children born nowadays most likely living longer and using more resources than previous generations, combined with the weird hysteria over falling birth rates in developed countries. Plus, any kid born now is going to grow up in an even more uncertain world. No, we're not at that point IMO because of said falling birth rates - even getting rid of this culture that glorifies having kids and stigmatizes those who choose not to would go a long way. Maybe saying that I think giving birth is morally wrong isn't really correct, though; I just see it as a selfish act while many people view not having children as selfish.

 

I don't think anyone should be forced to have children under any conditions. If humanity gets to that point, maybe it's time for it to die off. Everything eventually does come to an end, after all.

Thank you for your answer, I was curious to hear more of your thoughts on it. I can't say I agree with that people who want children are selfish or well it might be considered that way but I don't think it would be wrong. I definitely agree with that the stigma and criticism towards those who do not want to have children ought to go away though. 

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I like this term and I can relate to the concept very well.  I feel it is morally wrong for me to procreate because I think the world is just getting more and more fucked up and I really don't believe that the future bodes better than the past, especially for American society.   But I would never impose my moral values on someone else so I have to answer this strictly from my own perspective.

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5 hours ago, Still said:

 

I don't think anyone should be forced to have children under any conditions. If humanity gets to that point, maybe it's time for it to die off. Everything eventually does come to an end, after all.

It's not possible to force people to have children.  

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I've believed people shouldn't procreate for many years now.  While I believe procreation is wrong, I wouldn't say that the people who procreate are themselves immoral (and I don't believe the OP was saying that either), I'm friends with people with kids and all, I just think it's a (very) bad move, but almost always without bad motives.  People don't really think about it enough for the most part. Never bothered reading any of the aforementioned authors though I've heard of them.  Too much risk involved, no need for it.  Sure, people might enjoy having kids but that's not a very good reason.  There are people who are happy most of the time, people who are depressed, a lot of people somewhere in the middle and whatever extremes, and to think of the bad extremes-- it's unpleasant, and there's no way to guarantee against the worst outcomes if one has kids.  So, I'd advise against it.  

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Anthracite_Impreza
7 hours ago, Sally said:

It's not possible to force people to have children.  

Oh it is, just look what happens to cows and pigs...

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13 hours ago, MistySpring said:

I can't say I agree with that people who want children are selfish or well it might be considered that way but I don't think it would be wrong.

 

Many people do have kids for selfish reasons, like "continuing my line" which I've often seen. I don't think it's right to create a new human being just because you feel like fulfilling some arbitrary notion.

 

I think active population control (controlling the number of children people are allowed et al.) is pretty much impossible to implement in a moral way because then you'd get into punishing either the child or the parents. Punishing the child isn't right because they didn't have a choice, and punishing the parents would be kind of pointless because the child already exists (besides, punishing them would be indirectly punishing the child anyway). I do believe that working to reduce birth rates should be spoken of by more people - we implement stuff like a ban on incandescent light bulbs for the sake of the environment, but somehow it's taboo to say "hey, if everyone started having fewer children, that'd have a damn big positive impact on the environment"?

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Lord Jade Cross
18 hours ago, Sally said:

It's not possible to force people to have children.  

Not physically (unless you count rape) but psychologically is an entirely different question and its easier to manipulate people into having kids by peer pressure. At least I have still seen in some of my coworkers how they start losing it if they dont have kids by their mid 20's at the latest.

 

The immediate reaction when the infamous child question arises and meets my answer, is still pretty much "*gasp* what do you mean you wont have kids?" or you can also have "but dont you want your parents to have grankids?/whos going to take care of you when you're old?/do you hate kids?" and soon.

 

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NoLongerActive1234
On 2017-03-16 at 0:22 PM, Still said:

 

Many people do have kids for selfish reasons, like "continuing my line" which I've often seen. I don't think it's right to create a new human being just because you feel like fulfilling some arbitrary notion.

 

I think active population control (controlling the number of children people are allowed et al.) is pretty much impossible to implement in a moral way because then you'd get into punishing either the child or the parents. Punishing the child isn't right because they didn't have a choice, and punishing the parents would be kind of pointless because the child already exists (besides, punishing them would be indirectly punishing the child anyway). I do believe that working to reduce birth rates should be spoken of by more people - we implement stuff like a ban on incandescent light bulbs for the sake of the environment, but somehow it's taboo to say "hey, if everyone started having fewer children, that'd have a damn big positive impact on the environment"?

A lot of people want to continue their blood line yes but it doesn't have to exclude wanting to help, care about and and guide a new living being into this world. For a lot of couples it is part of their happiness in life to have a child. I think that is perfectly normal and valid. It being morally questionable depends on the situation. So stating that procreating is morally wrong in this day and age, in developed countries, just is not true.
As for working to reducing birth rates. Talking about it, discussing it makes sense to me. You said it needs to be controlled somehow though-how? I agree with that active population control is impossible to implement in a moral way and isn't an option. I also think one definitely shouldn't implement it because it's not right.
If you think that people shouldn't be forced to not have children ever and that it would be better then to have the world die out then shouldn't it be the same the other way around? If the earth had so many humans that we'd die out from the lack of resources isn't that then better than to force people to not have children since all things do die out in the end like you said. 
 

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/16/2017 at 11:22 AM, Still said:

I do believe that working to reduce birth rates should be spoken of by more people - we implement stuff like a ban on incandescent light bulbs for the sake of the environment, but somehow it's taboo to say "hey, if everyone started having fewer children, that'd have a damn big positive impact on the environment"?

This! Totally agreed. I also don't understand why people want many children as opposed to fewer, because having fewer would ensure that the lives of those few children will be richer than if they had to share their parents' resources with more siblings. 

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