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Antinatalism


Slajmy

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Hi,

 

I,ve just recently discovered antinatalism, which is a bit of a controversial topic. It basically says that it's morally wrong to procreate because of the pain it will inflicte on the person being brought into existence. I've never wanted children of my own, but people being childfree often list arguments like children being a pain in the butt, not that they want to spare an unborn person future pain. In that way, I can identify with antinatalism. For the moment I'm reading a book about ethics written by Arthur Schopenhauer, who was not a very merry person it seems. I've also reserved David Benatar's  Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming Into Existence at my local library. So, until the book arrives; are there any thoughts out there on the topic antinatalism? Is it morally wrong to procreate? Some may say procreation is the very meaning of life itself.

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Morals are subjective, so I think it depends.

I think it would be morally wrong for me to do so especially considering the genetic disorders I have. Then again I also don't want to have kids in the first place, so it isn't an issue for me. I think many folks make a mistake of having kids just because they want to, not considering if the child will be healthy, or if they'll be good parents, etc.

But that's human nature. We often put ourselves first, not considering the consequences.

We also have to consider how we're approaching a point of over population, the strain we're putting on other species is disturbing.

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NoLongerActive1234

I don't really think it is morally wrong. I can see why one could think that way looking at all of the disasters of the world and the hardships we face as humans. One can never know though how someone's life would be like or how it would develop. It's more unsure when you know risk of diseases like what Syl mentioned but yeah we can't know the future. As it is now at least....  :o 

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While it is true that the human race is responsible for much of the world's ills, but in the words of 'The Desiderata'

"For the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism"

 

 

 

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NerotheReaper

Morally, no. There isn't anything wrong or evil about procreation, just people don't realize children aren't all sunshine and rainbows. Babies will wake you up in the middle of the night several times, your entire life will be based on them, college tuition one day, dealing with the moody teenage years. Not really appealing. Irresponsible parenting is wrong though, making a baby isn't 'wrong'. Long as the parents can provide love and a stable environment for the child I have no issue with them. 

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44 minutes ago, MistySpring said:

I don't really think it is morally wrong. I can see why one could think that way looking at all of the disasters of the world and the hardships we face as humans. One can never know though how someone's life would be like or how it would develop. It's more unsure when you know risk of diseases like what Syl mentioned but yeah we can't know the future. As it is now at least....  :o 

When I've been reading about antinatialism, I've understood that the logic behind it is something like this; at a theoretical level we can't say with surtainty that a future person will experience happiness and similar positive phenomena. It's a possibility but not a surtainty. But we can say that a future persons life will involve pain och death. That's a surtain fact. And therefore it is wrong to procreate. Something like that... 

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binary suns
1 hour ago, Slajmy said:

it's morally wrong to procreate because of the pain it will inflicte on the person being brought into existence.

pain is nothing more than an experience the brain fabricates in order to give us feedback that something is dangerous to our survival.

 

if your life is so bad that you feel it was incorrect to have been born there are a few more likely scenarios than birth itself being morally wrong -

 

maybe the environment you are in is so bad that birthing in that specific environment was the wrong inflicted on you. 

 

maybe the actors in the environment are inflicting pain upon you. 

 

maybe your brain has been ill-developed in some way in which it sends too much pain signals to you and overwhelm you with false signals. 

 

maybe something about the way you think leads your brain to create false signals of pain. 

 

maybe there are things you can do to leave your environment and find a better one which is less painful. 

 

in the end. pain is temporary, and is not you. pain comes and it goes. in this way so does happiness and satisfaction. finding happiness in life is not a freebie - there is nothing in life which is free. in order to push a ball there must be a force to unsettle it. in order to heat us and give us light, there must be a giant ball of gas combusting. so if you wish to escape your painful experiences then realize that it is a simple matter really, at least mechanically - finding the positive things and cultivating their growth and strength, and finding the negative things and negotiating with your self or with whatever is external, in pursuit of minimizing the impact of it or removing the source from your environment. And please note - this isn't going to be immediate, it will take time to unfold. and it will be worth it. this is when it is not as simple - because it takes effort and time which you must foster and provide. If you rely on something in your environment which causes you pain, then take time to find and built up the reliability of a replacement source. then leave that toxic source behind. 

 

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For me, it's more a question of whether the parent(s) can/are capable of raising the child so they have the capacity to do well when they're grown.

 

I kinda feel like if someone is saying the world is too shit to raise a child in, they're basically admitting their inability to so. Which is fine, I don't think I have the capacity to properly raise a child myself so I'm not planning to do it either.

 

When it comes to the question of morality, it comes down to a person's choice. If they think the world or they themselves suck too much they can simply choose not to procreate. Or they can choose to seek some kind of parental training/lessons or do their own research and grow until they feel they can successfully raise a kid. To be a somewhat functional human being. ;p

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5 minutes ago, lIIIIIllIIlI said:

pain is nothing more than an experience the brain fabricates in order to give us feedback that something is dangerous to our survival.

 

if your life is so bad that you feel it was incorrect to have been born there are a few more likely scenarios than birth itself being morally wrong -

 

maybe the environment you are in is so bad that birthing in that specific environment was the wrong inflicted on you. 

 

maybe the actors in the environment are inflicting pain upon you. 

 

maybe your brain has been ill-developed in some way in which it sends too much pain signals to you and overwhelm you with false signals. 

 

maybe something about the way you think leads your brain to create false signals of pain. 

 

maybe there are things you can do to leave your environment and find a better one which is less painful. 

 

in the end. pain is temporary, and is not you. pain comes and it goes. in this way so does happiness and satisfaction. finding happiness in life is not a freebie - there is nothing in life which is free. in order to push a ball there must be a force to unsettle it. in order to heat us and give us light, there must be a giant ball of gas combusting. so if you wish to escape your painful experiences then realize that it is a simple matter really, at least mechanically - finding the positive things and cultivating their growth and strength, and finding the negative things and negotiating with your self or with whatever is external, in pursuit of minimizing the impact of it or removing the source from your environment. And please note - this isn't going to be immediate, it will take time to unfold. and it will be worth it. this is when it is not as simple - because it takes effort and time which you must foster and provide. If you rely on something in your environment which causes you pain, then take time to find and built up the reliability of a replacement source. then leave that toxic source behind. 

 

I'm not sure if you are writing this directly to me or more in general. But to be clear; I did'nt post this because I think my life is shitty, I posted this to see what other ideas people have about this on a purely theoretical level. That's it.

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I had no idea that this was a philosophy that had a name!

 

I decided very early that I would never have biological children, mainly because I very often wish I had never been born. I know my opinion of life exists mostly because of anxiety/depression, but I really don't ever want to give birth myself because I feel that it would be morally wrong for me to do so, feeling the way I do about life. On the other hand, this is an individual choice and I don't think I would judge another person for having a child. 

 

I do think it's morally questionable to have a child if you don't think you can care for it - but then, I don't think a lot of people put that much thought into having children in the first place. 

 

If I felt I was capable, though - I'd want to adopt. Since a life has already been born into a cruel world, I'd love to be able to do what I can to make it a little more bearable. Unfortunately though, I don't know if I'm capable of doing that either.

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binary suns

my point stands either way. if someone believes birth is immoral, it is most likely either because they think the world is more bad than good, or because they think that their environment is inescapable and is comparable to all environments. both of those assumptions are short-sighted and false. I encourage dismantling either assumption. 

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NoLongerActive1234
38 minutes ago, Slajmy said:

When I've been reading about antinatialism, I've understood that the logic behind it is something like this; at a theoretical level we can't say with surtainty that a future person will experience happiness and similar positive phenomena. It's a possibility but not a surtainty. But we can say that a future persons life will involve pain och death. That's a surtain fact. And therefore it is wrong to procreate. Something like that... 

I can see the reasoning in that but it's kind of too logical imo, not sure how else to phrase it. Even if it might be easier to say with certainty that there will be pain than it is to say that there will be happiness how would one know if a possible human being would find the joys of life to outweigh the pains or not? That's not something you can know with certainty either. 
Sure then one could say that not risking something is better than taking a chance on something but that's up to potential parents to ponder and decide on. I see nothing morally wrong in deciding to have children or to not to. The question about morality comes in with why the parents want a child. If they actually are able to aid and support a child brought into the world, like others have pointed out.

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7 minutes ago, Moophie said:

For me, it's more a question of whether the parent(s) can/are capable of raising the child so they have the capacity to do well when they're grown.

 

I kinda feel like if someone is saying the world is too shit to raise a child in, they're basically admitting their inability to so. Which is fine, I don't think I have the capacity to properly raise a child myself so I'm not planning to do it either.

 

When it comes to the question of morality, it comes down to a person's choice. If they think the world or they themselves suck too much they can simply choose not to procreate. Or they can choose to seek some kind of parental training/lessons or do their own research and grow until they feel they can successfully raise a kid. To be a somewhat functional human being. ;p

As I understand it, it is more of an overarching philosophical reasoning about deciding for a person not yet existing, if that person should come into existence where the odds of experiencing pain is greater. Not about a shitty world or people who are incapable of raising children, althought those are some things to think about before having a child :-)

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Perissodactyla

Like many people, I'm very lucky to  have a very close, loving relationship with my parents who sacrificed a lot to raise me.

 

I do not regret being born.

 

I think it is amazing to be alive.

 

I think that existence is overwhelmingly, incredibly awesome beyond words.

 

My parents regard my birth and life, and the births and lives of my siblings as the greatest, most valuble experiences of Their lives.

 

My relationship with my parents and siblings are for me the greatest experiences of My life.

 

Life is full of joy. Life is full of suffering.

 

Life is unbelievably complex and beautiful.

 

Life is the greatest thing that there is.

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MistySpring said:

I can see the reasoning in that but it's kind of too logical imo, not sure how else to phrase it. Even if it might be easier to say with certainty that there will be pain than it is to say that there will be happiness how would one know if a possible human being would find the joys of life to outweigh the pains or not? That's not something you can know with certainty either. 
Sure then one could say that not risking something is better than taking a chance on something but that's up to potential parents to ponder and decide on. I see nothing morally wrong in deciding to have children or to not to. The question about morality comes in with why the parents want a child. If they actually are able to aid and support a child brought into the world, like others have pointed out.

That's a good point, that you can't say with certainty if a person would find the joys of life to outweigh the pains. It's all subjective. Logic is not always right. 

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Anthracite_Impreza

Makes sense to me, but the desire to breed will always win out.

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13 minutes ago, euco said:

Like many people, I'm very lucky to  have a very close, loving relationship with my parents who sacrificed a lot to raise me.

 

I do not regret being born.

 

I think it is amazing to be alive.

 

I think that existence is overwhelmingly, incredibly awesome beyond words.

 

My parents regard my birth and life, and the births and lives of my siblings as the greatest, most valuble experiences of Their lives.

 

My relationship with my parents and siblings are for me the greatest experiences of My life.

 

Life is full of joy. Life is full of suffering.

 

Life is unbelievably complex and beautiful.

 

Life is the greatest thing that there is.

 

 

 

I'm glad for you that you're happy with your life :-)

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1 minute ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Makes sense to me, but the desire to breed will always win out.

I think so too.

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I don't think it's morally wrong to procreate but I do think it's irresponsible. Between continuing economic trends, food/water and world population a child's future is more uncertain than previous generations. You'd have to be pretty optimistic to think a child born today will have a better future then it's parents. There are major issues in this world that will need to be dealt with in the next 100 years. Human history has shown that major change is almost never peaceful.

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29 minutes ago, gaogao said:

I had no idea that this was a philosophy that had a name!

 

I decided very early that I would never have biological children, mainly because I very often wish I had never been born. I know my opinion of life exists mostly because of anxiety/depression, but I really don't ever want to give birth myself because I feel that it would be morally wrong for me to do so, feeling the way I do about life. On the other hand, this is an individual choice and I don't think I would judge another person for having a child. 

 

I do think it's morally questionable to have a child if you don't think you can care for it - but then, I don't think a lot of people put that much thought into having children in the first place. 

 

If I felt I was capable, though - I'd want to adopt. Since a life has already been born into a cruel world, I'd love to be able to do what I can to make it a little more bearable. Unfortunately though, I don't know if I'm capable of doing that either.

I was also surpriced when I stumbled over it - that it was its own area within philosophy. I'm sorry you feel that way about your life, that you wish you'd never been born :-( I acctually did'nt expect there be any people sharing experiences that somehow supports antinatalism, because it is a gloomy philosophy. I really hope you someday can feel better about your life. Thank's for sharing!

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39 minutes ago, lIIIIIllIIlI said:

I encourage dismantling either assumption. 

Mind going ahead? :)

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6 minutes ago, aeimquy159 said:

I don't think it's morally wrong to procreate but I do think it's irresponsible. Between continuing economic trends, food/water and world population a child's future is more uncertain than previous generations. You'd have to be pretty optimistic to think a child born today will have a better future then it's parents. There are major issues in this world that will need to be dealt with in the next 100 years. Human history has shown that major change is almost never peaceful.

Hi, how do you mean it's not morally wrong but irresponsible. Would you mind explaining the difference? :-)

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37 minutes ago, Slajmy said:

As I understand it, it is more of an overarching philosophical reasoning about deciding for a person not yet existing, if that person should come into existence where the odds of experiencing pain is greater. Not about a shitty world or people who are incapable of raising children, althought those are some things to think about before having a child :-)

Oh, yeah, no I was referring to my own outlook on baby-making.

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5 minutes ago, Slajmy said:

Hi, how do you mean it's not morally wrong but irresponsible. Would you mind explaining the difference? :-)

If I thought it was morally wrong it would be wrong to have children no matter the situation. Finding it irresponsible I'm not against people having kids i just think it's a bad idea and somewhat cruel to the child based on our current world situation.

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binary suns
22 minutes ago, Homer said:

Mind going ahead? :)

dismantling one's assumptions requires hard work. I cannot do it for them because I do not know how they think. the assumptions could potentially have very deep roots into their mental understanding of the world.

 

 

we know that life is worth living because the large majority of humans don't give up and die. instead, they live and create more life. This is in my imagination a strong lead-in to discovering how to dismantle the assumption that life sucks for everyone. There are a lot of reasons for why someone might feel pessimistic about humanity as a whole really... I am not really sure what better to say. it would need its own discussion, and as I said the person who really pays off the most to do work in this discussion is the person who wishes to dismantle their assumptions. no one else can do that for them - they can only show how they have dismantled their own assumptions, and not every path works for everyone. and also, it is a lot to really remember - our brains are effective because they purposefully forget old knowledge that is no longer useful.

 

regarding one's individual live being inescapable. only death is inescapable. (assumably - we do not have much observation of if existence transcends death) But every other environment in life can be left behind, with life still intact. If one lives with toxicity in their environment, then they can leave those elements behind. if one is instead dependent on toxic things in their environment, then it is a matter of replacing that dependency somehow. find a non-toxic source, or learn how to be the source oneself. once the dependency is made redundant and/or replaced altogether, then the toxic element can be left behind.

 

It will take time and require one's own effort - but if something is to be done, it is a matter of acting upon it - researching, contemplating, testing out new strategies, training oneself until something difficult becomes more easy. 

 

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26 minutes ago, lIIIIIllIIlI said:

dismantling one's assumptions requires hard work. I cannot do it for them because I do not know how they think. the assumptions could potentially have very deep roots into their mental understanding of the world.

 

 

we know that life is worth living because the large majority of humans don't give up and die. instead, they live and create more life. This is in my imagination a strong lead-in to discovering how to dismantle the assumption that life sucks for everyone. There are a lot of reasons for why someone might feel pessimistic about humanity as a whole really... I am not really sure what better to say. it would need its own discussion, and as I said the person who really pays off the most to do work in this discussion is the person who wishes to dismantle their assumptions. no one else can do that for them - they can only show how they have dismantled their own assumptions, and not every path works for everyone. and also, it is a lot to really remember - our brains are effective because they purposefully forget old knowledge that is no longer useful.

 

regarding one's individual live being inescapable. only death is inescapable. (assumably - we do not have much observation of if existence transcends death) But every other environment in life can be left behind, with life still intact. If one lives with toxicity in their environment, then they can leave those elements behind. if one is instead dependent on toxic things in their environment, then it is a matter of replacing that dependency somehow. find a non-toxic source, or learn how to be the source oneself. once the dependency is made redundant and/or replaced altogether, then the toxic element can be left behind.

 

It will take time and require one's own effort - but if something is to be done, it is a matter of acting upon it - researching, contemplating, testing out new strategies, training oneself until something difficult becomes more easy. 

 

"we know that life is worth living because the large majority of humans don't give up and die. instead, they live and create more life. This is in my imagination a strong lead-in to discovering how to dismantle the assumption that life sucks for everyone." Now, I'm a newbie on antinatalism, but as I understand it, it's about reducing suffering overall, not just about not procreating. If a person for example wish they never been born, killing one self would cause suffering to that persons family and friends. Therefor suicide is wrong, one should insted try to shape ones life in a way that's more likable. "But every other environment in life can be left behind, with life still intact. If one lives with toxicity in their environment, then they can leave those elements behind." But as an example; to what extent can we influence and shape our lives? What should a starving family in western Africa do to reduce their suffering? 

 

I apologize if I totally misunderstood your text, my english is not great :-)

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binary suns

if a person realizes that they are not in a position where they could raise a happy child, then yes they are very wise to not do so! I suppose it is a useful moral claim to make, to say that a person who is not properly prepared for child-rearing should not bring a child into the world. but that does not claim that any person should never raise a child - only that if they would do so, they should take some amount of time and effort to learn how to properly prepare themselves to healthfully raise a child. 

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That's one of the reasons I don't want kids, I want to spare my potential offspring the pain and inconvenience of existence. Of course there's a laundry list of other reasons I don't want to reproduce as well.

 

Then again I don't really care if other people have kids, and I wouldn't call anyone "immoral" for having them.

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chair jockey

None of us is perfect enough to tell other people what to do.

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