This kind of thing

[butterflydreams]

Seeing stuff like this makes me want to kill myself. 

 

https://outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

 

And this: https://transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/02/21/what-do-i-expect-from-him/

 

All the love and support in the world from friends doesn't take away the sting of stuff like this. All the links in that first one. That's hard to argue with. I wouldn't blame anyone who saw that and became extremely skeptical and against trans people. I have no rebuttal for that. And to be totally honest? In many of the things I follow regarding trans stuff outside of AVEN, even I feel disgusted with the way a lot of trans women act. Like they really are fetishizing femininity (and especially lesbian relationships). It's weird, gross and makes me super uncomfortable. Do trans guys do the same thing? I don't follow enough to know.

 

I want to scream that "I'm just a regular person who wouldn't ever dream of hurting anyone." This is precisely the kind of bullshit that makes being trans so hard

[Xenobot]

As a person with a degree in psychology I can tell you right now that the first person is cherry picking and probably willfully misunderstanding the research. Also, they're clearly conflating transvestism with being transgender which is utter BS. Also, the whole "autogynephilia" thing has been widely dismissed and ridiculed by the vast majority of professionals who actually work with transgender women.

[The-world-is-quiet-here]

All I can really think of saying is I'm sorry. I wish I had something better to say. 

 

You're not creepy or perverted or crazy. You're not broken. You're not just pretending or acting like this because you think it's fun or funny.

 

I think if the people writing these articles knew how hard it was to be trans, they wouldn't make it that much harder for trans women.  Imo, they lack a lot of empathy, and they could do a lot more good than they currently are, writing like this.

 

You're right. It is bullshit, and you deserve so much better.

[Emery.]

First of all, the second article makes me uncomforable by victimising cis women. Big Bad Men Are Staring at Me and Desiring My Body. OMG. I'm dying (No, women don't want to have sex, right? That's why some of them dress up if they wish so... ) That's TERFism, right? Bleh, victim mentality.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Seeing stuff like this makes me want to kill myself. 

 

https://outofmypantiesnow.wordpress.com/2013/10/28/when-is-90-not-substantially-all/

 

And this: https://transwidow.wordpress.com/2016/02/21/what-do-i-expect-from-him/

 

All the love and support in the world from friends doesn't take away the sting of stuff like this. All the links in that first one. That's hard to argue with. I wouldn't blame anyone who saw that and became extremely skeptical and against trans people. I have no rebuttal for that. And to be totally honest? In many of the things I follow regarding trans stuff outside of AVEN, even I feel disgusted with the way a lot of trans women act. Like they really are fetishizing femininity (and especially lesbian relationships). It's weird, gross and makes me super uncomfortable. Do trans guys do the same thing? I don't follow enough to know.

 

I want to scream that "I'm just a regular person who wouldn't ever dream of hurting anyone." This is precisely the kind of bullshit that makes being trans so hard

What you have to keep in mind when you read stuff like that is that some of the people writing it have a HUGE hidden agenda. Skeletons in closets, with a smathering of 'Methinketh the lady doth protest a bit too much'.  You might find out later that the author was a hard core domme. Or that she had a man who had a thing for trans people-- and that it was the fault of the trans people who seduced his innocent little angelic mind and both her and that man are the victims. More times than you might guess it's the cispeople who have a trans fetish, not vice versa.

 

Hadley, madness knows no single gender. I've seen ciswomen who were actually certifiably insane have a deep and abiding hatred of transwomen. One they can't articulate, the just KNOW they hate them. They go Linda-Blair-in-the-exorcist-head-spinning-360 bonkers when the subject is brought up. And half of what they spew is outright lies and slander. A bunch of years ago I had a female friend who had a daugher like this. The cops finally got so tired of her baseless sexual claims against people they threatened to lock HER up if she made one more false police report.

 

Keep that in mind next time you read some of these people and don't rent them space in your psyche. Be like a stealth plane: "...cause if they can't see you, they can't hit you."

[Xenobot]

I didn't have time to read or respond to the second link earlier, but goodness gracious... I hope the trans woman referenced in that post realizes that she's much better of without this person in her life. "I am going to pretend to be understanding and supportive while misgendering you every chance I get and base my respect for you on your willingness to censor your self-expression, to wallow in guilt over how you were born, and always remember and accept that you're not a "real" woman." Like, forget that noise.

 

Also, gender non conforming children benefit from being accepted and allowed to express their gender however they wish regardless of whether it turns out they are indeed transgender. Furthermore, if the desire to live as the opposite sex persists after puberty, the percentage of minors who change their mind after that point plummets.

[butterflydreams]

I know I know, I'm even sorry for sharing this here.

 

I was just looking up resources for feeling better about bottom dysphoria. That's how easy it is to find stuff like this.

 

It sucks because these are the kinds of things I hear from my mom, and I feel like I need to answer to them before I hear them from her.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

7 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

I know I know, I'm even sorry for sharing this here.

 

I was just looking up resources for feeling better about bottom dysphoria. That's how easy it is to find stuff like this.

 

It sucks because these are the kinds of things I hear from my mom, and I feel like I need to answer to them before I hear them from her.

Well, next time you encounter this tripe, imagine yourself saying, "Oh dear, Toto! I think it's pon farr night at the convent" while picturing the authors singing that classic line from The Knack song 'Good Girls Don't' in chipmunk falsetto.

 

And always remember, Shame Merchants always had to acquire their goods somewhere.

[Emery.]

Some cis women are crazy because they envy  No matter it's no fun to be trans, they want to be a man be it physically or mentally. 

 

And yeah... many cis people do have a thing for transness (both men and women). I've noticed it so much on my example. I mean the combination of my female body and dude behaviour / clothing. 

 

I agree, there is so much nonsense on the internet. I don't even read it any more. I think trans guys have the "you do it to gain privilege" accusation. 

[Guest]

The first article is just plain awful and the second is just a lovely way to talk guilt into someone.It just looks like a whole lotta me me me in one big tirade.

 

I'm so sorry you had to read that, Hadley

[SaturnOOO]

Umm, yeah. I'd hope that anyone with half a brain could write off the first link. The author basically took two differing estimates of of the population of trans* people in the US and unilaterally decided that the difference between these two estimates was accounted for by dangerous criminals. They then followed it up with a bunch of links regarding horrible things people with penises have done while somehow dressed or otherwise presenting as women. I'd like to believe that people who actually fall for this are already so convinced that the premise of this article is true that nothing is going to change their minds anyway. You could go back and forth all day exchanging articles about horrible things literally any "category" of human has done... what's the point?

 

The second article I think in the end is about this particular woman having some fundamental beliefs that she feels are being disrespected by her partner presenting and acting in a way that she sees as problematic. The problem is she seems pretty educated and knows the lingo already, so she's taking a hard line (and I'm getting the impression the misgendering is purposeful in order to send a message.) There are some aspects of the whole concept of gender as separate from sex assigned at birth that are still really hard for some cis people to grasp (myself included... and hell maybe for some non-cis people too, I don't know.) And there are many, many, many things about the concept of gender that are incredibly problematic in and of themselves. This seems to be a meeting of the two, and the author is using her familiarity with related issues to weaponize her discomfort. 

 

Personally, I see a space for acknowledging the concerns of cis women such as this person (and maybe like you said, Hadley, acknowledging some of the potentially problematic aspects of the greater transwoman culture that seem to be bothering you) while still being inclusive. I simply don't see the need to jump from "cis women have a background and upbringing and gendered cultural context that is different from transwomen" to "transwomen are harming us keep out." In fact, I think that the fact that there are still so many problematic expectations and stereotypes of women is all the more reason for all women to work together to pick them apart (but yeah wouldn't it be nice also if a purple pizza fairy came and gave me pizza every night for supper.) Anyway, I keep adding to this rambling so I'll stop here. Just my two cents, for what they're worth. I hope there's something in there that resonates...

 

 

 

[ChillaKilla]

That second blogger is horrific. She calls herself a "widow" because she'd rather pretend her ex-wife is dead than accept who she really is. What a disgusting waste of space.

[butterflydreams]

6 hours ago, SaturnOOO said:

The author basically took two differing estimates of of the population of trans* people in the US and unilaterally decided that the difference between these two estimates was accounted for by dangerous criminals.

My brother and his girlfriend wouldn't even finish letting me read them the article, even though I was distressed by it. They kept telling me that this is what was happening. I guess I believe it, but still.

 

6 hours ago, SaturnOOO said:

acknowledging some of the potentially problematic aspects of the greater transwoman culture that seem to be bothering you

Those aspects bother me a lot. Maybe it's because I feel like there's a lot on the line. If these people fuck it up for me, I've got nowhere else to go  It just feels like there's no  middle ground to acknowledge the problem spots without going full-bore TERF. To a large extent, I feel like these trans women who are fetishizing femininity are fetishizing me. It's so weird. It makes me so uncomfortable. I, like most people (cis or trans), don't spend my hours thinking about how much of a woman I am, or what it feels like to be a woman. I just am what I am. I think about other things usually.

 

6 hours ago, ChillaKilla said:

That second blogger is horrific. She calls herself a "widow" because she'd rather pretend her ex-wife is dead than accept who she really is. What a disgusting waste of space.

Honestly, the second one made me feel way worse.

 

Quote

I expect him to see the misogyny in his community. I expect him to notice the men around him: the stripper names, the five-inch heels, the giddy references to each other with the diminutive “girls,” the obsession with appearance. I expect him to look around at his female friends, to notice their jeans and t-shirts, to notice that they don’t exhibit or condone this behavior and are often made uncomfortable by it, to see how masculine this behavior is, how informed by porn it is.

If you ignore the references to "him" and "men", there's a lot here that I agree with. How common it is among trans women is hard to say, but enough that I've noticed it too. Where she loses me though is saying that jeans and t-shirts are somehow "normal" women's clothing. Never in my life have I willingly worn jeans. And I only wear t-shirts occasionally, before or after transition. Maybe more after, honestly. But this is the kind of behavior policing bullshit from this crowd that I hate. That really cuts me. Makes me feel like I can't wear whatever I want. I promise, what I'm wearing isn't informed by fucking porn...jesus christ. It's informed off of important women in my life, like my grandmother. Like any child would do...emulate older family role models they respect. Stripper names? Yes, I've seen it, and no, I really don't like it. I took my grandmother's name though, because I loved and respected her so much.

 

I could throw a rock aimlessly into the internet and hit a dozen testimonials/blogs/articles about straight cis women who's partner transitions from male to female. Many of them look like this. Utter hatred and scorn for their partners. Does the reverse ever happen? If it does, no one seems to write about it. I can't deal with this hatred. Where does it come from? Why is it always so focused on trans women in particular, and not trans people generally? Why does it never get better?

[Xenobot]

Feminists like the one in the second link would tear down a cis woman just as quickly for wearing "sexy" "hyperfeminine" clothing because they feel it reinforces gender roles and invites men to sexually objectify all of them, or that they have internalized misogyny, yada yada yada. I think women, including transwomen, should be allowed to dress however they please and not have to endure being harassed for it. Not by men, and not by other women.

 

Of course, I am not a transwoman, so I'm speaking from an outsider's perspective, but I have met several transwomen (as in they told me they were transwomen, not that I assumed they were for one reason or another). Not a single one of them dressed or acted in a way that was "informed by pornography", which leads me to believe it's the same deal as with flamboyant gay men. Do they exist? Yes. Are they the norm? No. Are they frequently treated as the norm or stereotype by virtue of standing out more in people's minds? Hell yes. Also? If I met a transwoman who did dress very provocatively, wore a lot of make-up, and all that jazz, I wouldn't judge her for it. I wouldn't because I know she is under immense pressure from society to prove there is nothing about her that could reasonably be construed as "masculine", lest her entire identity be thrown into doubt more than it already is.

 

I highly recommend that you celebrate and express your femininity in whatever way makes you feel good about yourself. Haters are going to hate, but the rest of us will support you in your journey to be yourself.

 

PS. I have seen it go the other way where women have supported their partner's transition. The thing is that you don't hear about it because they are too busy living their happily-ever-afters. Only bigots feel the need to shout about their transgender partners/exes from the rooftops.

[butterflydreams]

8 hours ago, Xenobot said:

I wouldn't because I know she is under immense pressure from society to prove there is nothing about her that could reasonably be construed as "masculine", lest her entire identity be thrown into doubt more than it already is.

She really is. I've tried to explain this to people. Trans women have it so tough in this area. We have to walk this super narrow line of avoiding things that are masculine that make us uncomfortable, but not being too feminine that these kinds of people won't come out of the woodwork to chastise us for "mocking real women."

 

8 hours ago, Xenobot said:

I highly recommend that you celebrate and express your femininity in whatever way makes you feel good about yourself.

I know, and I want to, but it's so hard. I already feel so guilty about wearing skirts so often

 

8 hours ago, Xenobot said:

PS. I have seen it go the other way where women have supported their partner's transition. The thing is that you don't hear about it because they are too busy living their happily-ever-afters. Only bigots feel the need to shout about their transgender partners/exes from the rooftops.

Yeah, I've seen a handful of those as well. I was actually wondering if there were examples of straight cis men with presumed straight female partners who transitioned to male.  I've never seen anyone talking about that. Though if I were to imagine it, I don't think the trans partner would catch any flak. If one was being an asshole, and saying he's still female, that's pretty taboo, to attack a "woman" like that. But in the case of the trans woman partner, whom one is still referring to as male? Shit, attacking men is open season. No taboos there.  

 

That's the one part of masculinity I fear I'll never shake. It'll always be ok to attack me and no one will give a fuck. It's not taboo, and no one will really care if it happens. So long as I'm presumed male in whatever the context is. It's this dynamic that gives rise to my worst, self destructive thoughts.

[SaturnOOO]

22 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

Those aspects bother me a lot. Maybe it's because I feel like there's a lot on the line. If these people fuck it up for me, I've got nowhere else to go  It just feels like there's no  middle ground to acknowledge the problem spots without going full-bore TERF.

I guess what I wanted to get across is that I certainly see this  middle ground. I firmly believe that  that the ability to criticize ourselves (as individuals, as a society, whatever) is necessary for progress, and I refuse to believe that this criticism should ever be used an excuse to deprive anyone of their rights. Despite the hyperbole that's so pervasive everywhere on the Internet, I have to imagine that there must be many other people who feel the same... Though I can definitely understand the fear of starting a dialogue with any sort of negativity when it's already so fraught  

On 2017-02-21 at 6:55 PM, Hadley167 said:

If you ignore the references to "him" and "men", there's a lot here that I agree with.

 

9 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

I already feel so guilty about wearing skirts so often 

What? Because of the above? The concern with internalized misogyny and fetishization you mentioned? Aw man, no. Wearing skirts because you as a woman want to wear them because they're flattering on you, they're comfortable... Whatever else reason you might have is you as a woman choosing what to put on her body end of. It's no one else's business whether they are a gross man passing you on the street or someone who calls themself a feminist to make you feel guilty for that. 

[butterflydreams]

31 minutes ago, SaturnOOO said:

I guess what I wanted to get across is that I certainly see this  middle ground. I firmly believe that  that the ability to criticize ourselves (as individuals, as a society, whatever) is necessary for progress, and I refuse to believe that this criticism should ever be used an excuse to deprive anyone of their rights.

I agree with this a lot. If there's crappy stuff going on among trans women generally, that should be pointed out and examined. 

 

34 minutes ago, SaturnOOO said:

Despite the hyperbole that's so pervasive everywhere on the Internet, I have to imagine that there must be many other people who feel the same...

This is what my brother said. That the internet was a terrible place for this kind of thing, and not representative of people generally...specifically because it is so hyperbolic. He mentioned knowing some trans guy who was just a regular person, like me, just trying to get along in the world. I wish I knew or came across more people like that. Specifically trans women. But I avoid trans support groups, and especially trans women groups. I'm so afraid of encountering the caricature of women attitude I despise so much. 

 

38 minutes ago, SaturnOOO said:

What? Because of the above? The concern with internalized misogyny and fetishization you mentioned? Aw man, no. Wearing skirts because you as a woman want to wear them because they're flattering on you, they're comfortable... Whatever else reason you might have is you as a woman choosing what to put on her body end of.

I definitely understand this, but I feel like I'm always fighting it internally. "Walk this thin line. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't wear this. Make sure to wear that sometimes too." My friend said I should wear whatever I want, and that no one had a right to tell me what I was wearing was wrong or bad. And then my mom...in real life, chastising me for wearing the most minimal makeup you can possibly wear and still call it makeup, "I'm a woman...I don't wear makeup all the time!!" And I know I don't have to justify it, but I only use it to help cover any tiny remaining stubble on my face. I feel like I have to have that justification. And the justification can never be, "because I like it and it makes me feel good about how I look."

 

I've never been very good at just being myself and not letting others dictate who I am. I'm also very prone to putting the feelings of others above my own at almost all costs. Which is why I even entertain some of these attitudes I'm reading about.

[SaturnOOO]

13 minutes ago, Hadley167 said:

I definitely understand this, but I feel like I'm always fighting it internally. "Walk this thin line. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't wear this. Make sure to wear that sometimes too."

Like, because of the fear of becoming that caricature or...? Because if so It seems like you'd be internalizing pressure to take responsibility for other women who you don't even know. No one needs to take on that responsibility.

[butterflydreams]

Just now, SaturnOOO said:

Like, because of the fear of becoming that caricature or...? Because if so It seems like you'd be internalizing pressure to take responsibility for other women who you don't even know. No one needs to take on that responsibility.

yeah, I guess I don't want to be seen as contributing to those things. Even though I know intellectually that's not my responsibility.

[Nylocke]

Meh that blogger has WAY too much time on their hands ... Plus you can't believe everything you read on the internet Some people are just really really butthurt about simple stuff

[Heart]

Since I know that we all know that those articles are pretty BS-y, I'll skip that bit and go straight to the arguments one might use against such things. Because there probably are people out there who harbour misunderstandings who would listen to logical discourse, and it's handy to have in your back pocket for those occasions. I hope this helps...

 

The first I'd like to address is the fetish thing. Coe is right; I'd bet my bottom dollar that there are far more cis people who fetishize trans people than vice versa. I'm cheating, because there exist far more cis people in general than trans people, so the sheer number of cis people to trans people pretty much guarantees I'm right, but that's beside the point. The point is that fetishism doesn't cause transexuality. There are plenty of trans people out there who don't have a fetish, and even if they do, it's probably not "causing" their gender. Heck, even if it did, why is that wrong? If you're happy and not harming anyone, I see no wrong.

 

Which brings me to my other fetish point. Fetishes aren't wrong. Objectification is, but that's a different beast. You can have a fetish and still not objectify the person that's doing it for you. For example, you can have a fetish for a certain body part, and be unable to get sexually aroused without interacting with that one body part. But you can do all that without treating the person who owns that body part as an object; any decent person is perfectly capable of treating someone as a complex, whole, and respect-worthy human being even while appreciating one part of them. Heck, non-fetish people do that all the time with body parts like genitals or boobs. It's not hard.

 

So the double-whammy of demonizing kink and fetishes (which these people often can't tell the difference between; in common usage, fetish means a thing that you can't get aroused without while kink is something that increases arousal or enjoyment but is not necessary for it), and trashing trans people all at once is harsh. At least it's easy to argue against though (relatively). And fetishes are like sexual preferences of any kind; they're fine to have, but talking so much about them for no reason just doesn't feel proper. I feel like I've already given them far more airtime than I want to

 

As for the second link, that one's more manipulative and sneaky. The author is conflating gender roles with genders, and the patriarchy with both of those. Gender roles can exist without patriarchy, misogyny, and harm. It's possible. Gender roles are no more inherently harmful than a hammer is. It's just that we live in a society where gender roles are heavily influenced by misogyny, which is the metaphorical society that owns hammers but was only ever taught to swing at people with them and finds it hard to believe they could be used to build things.

 

When gender roles are treated as a tool for expression, as guidelines and optional things, they can be awesome. They can be as much a source of gender euphoria as dysphoria. They can also be as much a source of empowerment of all genders, as they can be a source of oppression for all genders. Society will (hopefully) figure this out one day.

 

So the main thing to remember is that you aren't automatically signing on for all of gender roles, misogyny, etc just because you decide to transition to live as your genuine self. You are only one person; you can do a lot of good, but you certainly can't change society on your own. So the way the author seems to blame all gender-based oppression on trans people, or even to say that they are making it worse, seems impossible. Trans people just aren't a big enough chunk of society to cause that much harm. If they were, I feel like there would be a lot less bathroom laws.

 

Oh, and not all trans women dress in heals and flimsy clothing. And even the ones that do should be free to do so from their own choice without being body shamed. That's a low blow.

 

*sigh* I wish I could do more to help