sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I've heard a lot of talk about them, but I've never seen an actual description of what they could be about (except for the ones that only mean a total lack of male/female gender, but I don't mean those - those are pretty clear to me). Does someone care to inform me? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Genders can be binary, like male/female, cis and non-binary... Alright I'll admit I suck at genders, I don't even understand the concept, but here is what the wiki says: http://wiki.asexuality.org/Gender It's about how we are, within, or something like it, but to me it feels more like how we are as people, different. Aaand then assigning how we are into a gender feels a bit odd. I guess I'm not sure if I understand the point with gender I guess, or maybe it is because I don't feel like I am anything (genderless). Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well, I also understand genders that are "something else", but still related to male/female, for example genderfluid or bigender... but I've never even heard an example of a gender that is not in any way, shape or form related to the binary - and yet I've heard many times that they exist. I'd just like to hear even one example, so that I'd have some hope to wrap my mind around it Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I'm not sure if I understand now, but I don't feel like anything (genderless), meaning I'm not linked to any of the binaries. I don't know how to explain it really, but to me, feeling male/female sounds very strange. I suppose I feel a bit disconnected from it, i'm a thought that controls a body, the body happens to be female, but I wouldn't mind if the body had been male. Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, Messen said: I'm not sure if I understand now, but I don't feel like anything (genderless), meaning I'm not linked to any of the binaries. I don't know how to explain it really, but to me, feeling male/female sounds very strange. I suppose I feel a bit disconnected from it, i'm a thought that controls a body, the body happens to be female, but I wouldn't mind if the body had been male. Oh, I think I totally understand that feeling. Gender doesn't make a whole lot sense to me either, and at times I've felt completely genderless as well. Even now, to be honest, I think I "feel female" mainly in the sense, that I like the aesthetics related to being female (altho to me "aesthetics" are more than just feminine clothes etc, but that's another hard-to-explain story) So, a lack of gender... completely understandable to me. But the presence of a gender... which still has nothing to do with the binary? What even is that? Link to post Share on other sites
Toothlesss Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 2 minutes ago, sindi said: So, a lack of gender... completely understandable to me. But the presence of a gender... which still has nothing to do with the binary? What even is that? I'd like to know too. In my original fiction I'm going for a more genderless (somewhat- it's pre-Industrial era on their planet) society. 6 minutes ago, sindi said: I like the aesthetics related to being female ^ This, but that's about it for me. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, sindi said: Oh, I think I totally understand that feeling. Gender doesn't make a whole lot sense to me either, and at times I've felt completely genderless as well. Even now, to be honest, I think I "feel female" mainly in the sense, that I like the aesthetics related to being female (altho to me "aesthetics" are more than just feminine clothes etc, but that's another hard-to-explain story) So, a lack of gender... completely understandable to me. But the presence of a gender... which still has nothing to do with the binary? What even is that? Hm... I don't know if I've heard about genders that's not agender/genderless and not linked to male/female. I mean... all the genders I can think of has either male, female or both in them. Female, male, androgynous, bigender, genderfluid, demifemale/demimale.... I mean, the pinned thread on this subforum talks about them. I suppose third gender and neutrois is that other gender that's not male/female or "nothing"? I don't recall ever talking to someone who identifies as third gender or neutrois, so I don't know what that is about. Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I guess what you mean are genders like gender-neutral/neutrois and maverique. Check out https://www.youtube.com/user/QueerAsCat They coined the term 'maverique' and explain it in a video called "Gender Tag". There is also: https://neutrois.me/ As to not feeling a gender, but not experiencing dysphoria and the gender expression being related to that of the assigned gender. It's called cis-genderless or cis-by-default. Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, Messen said: Hm... I don't know if I've heard about genders that's not agender/genderless and not linked to male/female. I mean... all the genders I can think of has either male, female or both in them. Female, male, androgynous, bigender, genderfluid, demifemale/demimale.... I mean, the pinned thread on this subforum talks about them. I suppose third gender and neutrois is that other gender that's not male/female or "nothing"? I don't recall ever talking to someone who identifies as third gender or neutrois, so I don't know what that is about. I know right... even official lists only include genders that have something to do with the binary, but still, I have heard several times from someone, that there are genders that are something different altogether. But never with an example (and never have they themselves identified as such). It's just something mysterious that apparently exists? And you're kind of a bigot if you don't believe in it, I suppose (or that's the implication I get from it)?? Well, I'm perfectly open to believing in those genders, if someone just provides any information about them Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Morgen said: I guess what you mean are genders like gender-neutral/neutrois and maverique. Can you maybe sum up what maverique means for me? The links didn't lead directly to a definition, and I feel lazy to comb through those blogs/videos in hope of finding an explanation... Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Okay, I googled on my own. " Maverique (mavˈrēk, "mav-REEK;" or mav(ə)ˈrēk "mav-uh-REEK")[3] is a specific nonbinary gender identity "characterized by autonomy and inner conviction regarding a sense of self that is entirely independent of male/masculinity, female/femininity or anything which derives from the two while still being neither without gender nor of a neutral gender."[4] Maverique is not close to a female or male gender, and is not like a mix of them. It also isn't a lack of gender, or an apathetic attitude about gender.[5] Maverique is strictly a gender identity, not a gender expression, so "how a maverique person chooses to express or present themself is entirely up to that individual."[6] Maverique is not an umbrella term, but a specific gender identity.[7] " Sooo... they list a lot of things that maverique definitely is not. But what is it? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Maverique... what did that name come from? Sounds pretty nice, haha. I agree about that text though, it really doesn't say anything about what it is, only what it isn't. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I mean, "Autonomy and inner conviction regarding a sense of self that is entirely independent of male/masculinity, female/femininity or anything which derives from the two while still being neither without gender nor of a neutral gender" could totally be me, but I'm ok with just saying that I'm genderless. I have a sense of self and autonomy, does that mean it is a gender? I'd like to talk to someone who identifies as this, would be interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I think it is difficult to define a gender. I mean how would you define "female" or "woman" without any reference to other genders, biological sex or gender expression. The only thing I could say to it is that a female/woman is okay being called female or woman and identifies similar or the same as other people you identify as female and/or woman. Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Morgen said: I think it is difficult to define a gender. I mean how would you define "female" or "woman" without any reference to other genders, biological sex or gender expression. The only thing I could say to it is that a female/woman is okay being called female or woman and identifies similar or the same as other people you identify as female and/or woman. I understand that it's hard to describe, but when you come up with a completely new word, how can you convey any meaning behind it, if it can't be described at all? How can even two maverique-gendered persons know, that their experience is anything alike, if they can't explain to each other what it's like? Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well two people's gender experience is always different. Two woman might identify their gender the same, but their experience with it is different. So two maverique people can probably agree with a lot of things, but their experiences with their gender are different, maybe similar but not the same. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I found this http://queerascat.tumblr.com/post/88861493366/maverique-why-i-coined-the-word which I suppose is the same as what's in the video, but written down. I guess it's an abstract feeling of not feeling neutral but still not feeling any form of male/female. I guess I can relate to that, but it has never bothered me to the point where I searched beyond genderless. Still, it's interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 Just now, Morgen said: Well two people's gender experience is always different. Two woman might identify their gender the same, but their experience with it is different. So two maverique people can probably agree with a lot of things, but their experiences with their gender are different, maybe similar but not the same. I see, but I really just want to know even one, vague thing about what it's like being maverique (apart from what it's not) to be able to form even the faintest mental picture of what it possibly could resemble. Otherwise, it could as well be wepioghasdfwopethi-gendered, what comes to my level of understanding of the word, and I definitely don't mean to offend anyone - just trying to express the bottomless depths of my confusion here. Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Well I guess it would be best to ask a maverique about this. I can only tell you about myself. I mostly identify as agender, but I'm not completely agender. I can experience femininity and/or masculinity, but male or female is tough for me. Still I do sometimes have sudden thought, where I have the feeling that I have a gender. It's like I used a term describing a gender for me and it just made sense in my head. Now I have this for female, male and possibly other genders/gender identities. It's a bit of a squiggle for me. I'm very certain about the genderless part of me, but the other 10% of my gender are a bit blurry. Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Messen said: I found this http://queerascat.tumblr.com/post/88861493366/maverique-why-i-coined-the-word which I suppose is the same as what's in the video, but written down. I guess it's an abstract feeling of not feeling neutral but still not feeling any form of male/female. I guess I can relate to that, but it has never bothered me to the point where I searched beyond genderless. Still, it's interesting. That was helpful, thank you! Not that I still could form a mental picture of the actual gender or the writer, but apparently that's not what "maverique" truly is about. Seems like it really is more of an umbrella term (or abstract, like you said), despite what some other definitions claimed? And I actually relate way more than I expected. In fact, I relate extremely much to their reasons to stop identifying as neutrois (which I used to identify as). Link to post Share on other sites
Morgen Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 Okay maybe a little story can help, I don't know if this is completely rubbish though. So imagine you are at school and the teacher calls out: "All the girls come with me." All the girls go like: "Oh cool, only among girls." Transboys are like: "Ahh I want to be with the boys though." Non-binary people are like: "Can I just be among other non-binary people." And maverique people are like: "I have a gender myself, I want to be with people of my own gender, not also with people who don't have a gender or feel both as girls and boys." I guess this got a bit AFAB here, maybe also silly. What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 I feel that at my core I might, in fact, be something akin to maverique myself. I want to identify as female, but less because I just happen to feel female, and more because I want to kind of "reclaim" the female gender for myself, despite feeling like a "different female" (or if you want to put it negatively, "not a real female"). I'd have no problem to go with the females when teacher would call for all girls tho. And I'm not completely sure if it really is my gender that feels different (well, I know that I have issues with "womanhood", but still), or if it's just me - in general. Not saying that I'm some super special snowflake who is objectively sooo different from everyone, but I've just always had this feeling of isolation and alienation on a fundamental level. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, sindi said: That was helpful, thank you! Not that I still could form a mental picture of the actual gender or the writer, but apparently that's not what "maverique" truly is about. Seems like it really is more of an umbrella term (or abstract, like you said), despite what some other definitions claimed? And I actually relate way more than I expected. In fact, I relate extremely much to their reasons to stop identifying as neutrois (which I used to identify as). It is kinda odd how much one relates to it, isn't it? I never identified as neutrois since it was linked to people feeling uncomfortable looking like male/female (atleast when I joined aven people explained it like that), I don't enjoy looking female, but I can live with it. I just went for genderless when I realised that what I was sensing in myself wasn't male or female, just me. but maybe a sense of "me" is a gender as well? Haha, I'm so confused 12 minutes ago, Morgen said: Okay maybe a little story can help, I don't know if this is completely rubbish though. So imagine you are at school and the teacher calls out: "All the girls come with me." All the girls go like: "Oh cool, only among girls." Transboys are like: "Ahh I want to be with the boys though." Non-binary people are like: "Can I just be among other non-binary people." And maverique people are like: "I have a gender myself, I want to be with people of my own gender, not also with people who don't have a gender or feel both as girls and boys." I guess this got a bit AFAB here, maybe also silly. What do you think? I don't know about this one, but maybe I'm taking it too literally. I'm not female, as in gender, but I would just go with the females since my body is female. I'm not sure if it makes me understand maverique better either, it feels like the label could fit on a lot of people who currently identifies as agender/genderless/neutrois since that was the labels that was around when they "picked" a gendertag. I understand your thought, though Link to post Share on other sites
sindi Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, Messen said: I just went for genderless when I realised that what I was sensing in myself wasn't male or female, just me. but maybe a sense of "me" is a gender as well? Haha, I'm so confused Have can you even have such similar thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, sindi said: Have can you even have such similar thoughts? maybe we're all just weird, or maybe this is totally normal Link to post Share on other sites
Finn. Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 4 hours ago, Morgen said: Okay maybe a little story can help, I don't know if this is completely rubbish though. So imagine you are at school and the teacher calls out: "All the girls come with me." All the girls go like: "Oh cool, only among girls." Transboys are like: "Ahh I want to be with the boys though." Non-binary people are like: "Can I just be among other non-binary people." And maverique people are like: "I have a gender myself, I want to be with people of my own gender, not also with people who don't have a gender or feel both as girls and boys." I guess this got a bit AFAB here, maybe also silly. What do you think? But nonbinary doesn't just mean being genderless or bigender male+female. Then I wouldn't be nonbinary either. Maverique, afaik, means having a clear sense of gender identity, but it doesn't relate to the gender binary at all. Which still fits under the nb umbrella. I kind of think it's like agender but with a strong gender instead on none. Still independent from male+female. Link to post Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Do you mean Genders that are unrelated to being man or woman, cos all nb folks are not related to being man or woman, Or do you mean genders that aren't related to masculinity and femininity? As for the second option there's: Neutrois/gender neutral people that perceive themselves as unisex or sexless and prefers to fit inside a gender neutral gender box which contains only gender neutral and unisex gender roles. Agender/genderless/gender void/gender blank (u name it) folks who doesn't identify with any gender box, as they lack gender, and doesn't follow gender roles. Some Agender folks identify as being libranonbinary, that means they behave in a more androgynous manner even though they lack gender. Some libranonbinary folks behave like Neutrois folks and are more of gender neutral, however they still don't fit in any gender box and just bc they happen to be more gender neutral than anything doesn't mean they identify as such and only follow gender neutral roles only. Maverique folks also known as aporagenders are an subtype of "third" gender (other gender), they don't identify with any gender, but they don't identify as agender also. They have personal-customized genders. Idk how to explain what are maverique gender roles bc it's all personal and subjective. You should ask one of them. Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 @AVEN #1 fan "womyn"?? TERFs love that word... Link to post Share on other sites
AVEN #1 fan Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Just now, ChillaKilla said: @AVEN #1 fan "womyn"?? TERFs love that word... Oh holy shit, my autocorrector was on. Link to post Share on other sites
ChillaKilla Posted January 21, 2017 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Just now, AVEN #1 fan said: Oh holy shit, my autocorrector was on. RIP Link to post Share on other sites
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