I'm trying to understand the psyche of my gf who believes she is asexual

[Bectionary]

Below is the short and long version of my question/problem. In a way I've written this to get my own thoughts in order, to disseminate how I really feel, but I've also written this because I want to know how I can understand my girlfriend better, and a little bit because I feel guilty. So if anyone has a view or opinion then I welcome it. And thank you so much for reading this.

Bec x

 

Short version:

I'm hoping to get people's view on the concept of the mind-body disconnect that, from my research anyway, seems to be a common element in the experiences of an asexual person. The way the body will do what you typically expect during Sex, but the mind registers little or no pleasure and, in my gf case anyway, why there is always a part of her psyche that is separate, almost like an observer, analysing everything that happens, and never just getting lost in the moment. There's only so much I can learn academically, and I've asked my gf to explain it, which she does, but I always have a niggling doubt in the back of my mind that she's saying what she does to placate me, or make me feel less Shitty about what happens between us.

Long (very very long) version Inc. Background:

So, I met this wonderful, amazing girl last year. She'd just moved down and switched to the same degree as me and as soon as I saw her I felt like I just had to get to know her.  Now I'm a rather forceful personality so I can't say I ingratiated myself into her presence, more like bulldozed my way through to the fore of her attention. She's incredibly shy and I was very shocked to learn that she thought I was pissing about when I said I was attracted to her. She honest to jebus didn't believe that anyone could be attracted to her! And she is just beautiful, in body and spirit

 

So, fast forward a bit and we're in a relationship and on the whole it's so wonderful. Except for the Sex bit.  She was very honest with me from the start, telling me that she is attracted to women, but believes herself to be asexual, and why would I even want to be in a relationship with her at all, due to that fact that I'm an incredibly sexual person with previously high level of sexual activity (I've actually lost count of the number of people I've had Sex with which some, my gf included find intimidating).

 

I did talk to her about what Sex means to me. The physical act for me at least, has very little to do with an emotional connection. And I said from the beginning that Sex didn't have to play a big part, or any part for that matter, in our relationship. But inevitably it has crept in, and what I find most difficult to comprehend is *why*. Yes, I like Sex, it can be fun, it's a release for me, it's something I like doing. But we do so much that means so much more. She's the one I like to cwtch up to and watch a film with, the one I want to laugh with, cry with, talk utter crap to just to hear her voice. When I'm sad I want no one but her, when I'm happy I want to share it with her. All this means so much more to me. But she worries that she's not met my needs or whatever.

 

My take on Sex is that no one should ever do, or be coerced, convinced, or otherwise forced into doing something they don't want to do and don't *enjoy* (v. Important bit right there). So for me the solution was simple. She doesn't derive any pleasure from Sex, so we don't do it. In my mind it was simple. But we do end up having Sex and after I always feel guilty because I feel selfish, and I feel like I've somehow *made* her do it, though I never initiate Sex. Ever. The gf says that although she doesn't necessarily get any physical pleasure from the act, she is attracted to me, and she feels the we emotionally connect in those moments in ways that I don't with anyone else. The gf tells me that she derives pleasure from what she can give me, and the pleasure I feel. She tells me that she thinks there is a mind-body disconnect (and we've checked) her body does all the ‘correct’ things, but her mind. . .  It's difficult to explain. The gf says that the best way she can describe it is that something is ‘building up’ but there's no point of peak, no release, no real pleasure. She has described it in the past as ‘ok but annoying or irritating after a while’.  For me it feels like she's quite happy for me to have all the fun as it were, but not get any pleasure for herself.

I find it so difficult to reconcile myself with this. No matter how much she tells me it's ok, I feel like it's not. Like somehow I am making her do this, like I'm being selfish. And if I'm totally honest, I want to give her what I get. I want her to get lost in the moment, to feel the way I do, but I can't. I want to make her as happy as she makes me, but I simply cannot comprehend her psyche because it's so fundamentally different from mine, and anyone else's I've ever met.

[wrendering]

Well, I can't tell you what she's feeling... or really connect with how she feels as I'm a virgin, but I can tell you what I think if it helps. I think you should make sure that she understands that everything you do together is voluntary and not necessary for you to want to be with her and after that, if she still wants to do it, it's what she wants. I know it is probably really hard to feel okay about it, but if she says she likes it for her own reasons, I think that you should trust that as long as you know she doesn't feel pressured to do it. As always, I think that communication is the most important, so maybe you can talk to her about some other ways that you can treat her to a special moment in return for the pleasure that she can give you? I know this doesn't really answer your question, but it's all the insight I have, hope it helps!

[Sylvastor]

First of all, welcome to AVEN!

 

I see where you're coming from with your conclusion, but it could be she's really indifferent about whether you're doing it or not. wrendering has said something that's quite worth considering.

You have desires as well and it's somewhat questionable if you should suppress those and make yourself feel uncomfortable by stopping any activity of that kind and apparently, you do have to have this "release" (as you've put it) from time to time because of the desire that's building up and that's perfectly fine. That's just yourself. If you're really not pressuring her into anything and she takes part in initiating the whole process and even claims herself that she's doing it voluntarily and enjoys it in different ways, you might have to trust her on that.

I've read other cases here on AVEN where someone who's asexual has been into sexual activites with their partner, not for the physical pleasure of the activity and not because of any sexual attraction being in play, but for the closeness and deep emotional bond that is being established in such moments (if that makes any sense), to strengthen the relationship and to satisfy their partner (in a way also as a compromise), so there's a fair chance that she's doing the same and is enjoying it in her own ways.

I guess, the easiest way to put it: Her perception of what she considers pleasant about the activity are simply different. It could also be she is happy that you're happy.

 

It's really hard to tell for sure though as none of us can look into her head, of course.

 

But to take a pretty bad comparison as an example (as I can't come up with a better one):

One person may enjoy opening a present on Christmas and experience joy from the present itself, but another person could be totally indifferent about what that present is and the whole process of opening and trying it and instead be just happy about the thoughts the other person invested into gifting them something in the first place, no matter what that is. Substitute present for sex and the thoughts that went into picking the present for emotional connection.

 

I hope this is in any way useful.

[Telecaster68]

Quote

And if I'm totally honest, I want to give her what I get. I want her to get lost in the moment, to feel the way I do, but I can't. I want to make her as happy as she makes me, but I simply cannot comprehend her psyche because it's so fundamentally different from mine, and anyone else's I've ever met.

Welcome to sex with an asexual... I don't think sexuals and asexuals can ever grasp each other's mindset. It's a bit like Aspies and Neurotypicals. With a lot of communication you can arrive at roughly the same point but your workings are different.

 

They don't get what sexuals get from sex, and never will. Ain't gonna happen, and when a big part of your own sexual pleasure is giving your partner pleasure, it's a big mind-fucking paradox when they're fine with getting you off but just not interested in the same thing for themselves and you end up getting less pleasure because of it. All you can do is relax and let yourself be selfish. Which is harder than it sounds.

[Bezzy-Loo]

I discovered my asexuality when I was with my last partner. Your girlfriend's experience with sex sound very similar to mine, and I'll admit that I did my best to ignore that a lot of times for the sake of better maintaining the relationship.

 

I became better about letting my partner know when I didn't feel up to it, and even during things sometimes when I no longer felt up to it, but even with that, he reacted fairly similarly to you. He felt bad, he felt he was being coercive simply by desiring it, even when I tried to initiate. I tried explaining to him again and again that it truly did not matter if I didn't get the same thing out of it that he did, that I was just happy he could enjoy it - and I was being completely honest when I told him that. He still couldn't stop feeling bad about it. That's one of the many little reasons we eventually broke up (far from a primary reason, but it did contribute).

 

It's fine if you want to remind her now and then that you're okay with not having sex, but you need to trust her when she says she enjoys something, and trust that she'll let you know if it's a problem. We love you, and it makes us happy when you're happy, just like anyone else.

[Telecaster68]

Quote

We love you, and it makes us happy when you're happy, just like anyone else

Absolutely, we should take our partners at their word, but there's a lot of posts where it's become clear that while asexuals are saying they're fine with having sex, it's more because they want to be fine with it than actually are, and over time it gets old for them. Both partners want everything all right that they're talking themselves into it, and over time, the sexual is actually making withdrawals from the over all bank of goodwill, with the enthusiastic consent of the asexual partner. Nobody's doing anything wrong, it's just not the situation they think it is.

[Snao Cone]

1 hour ago, Bectionary said:

She tells me that she thinks there is a mind-body disconnect (and we've checked) her body does all the ‘correct’ things, but her mind. . .  It's difficult to explain. The gf says that the best way she can describe it is that something is ‘building up’ but there's no point of peak, no release, no real pleasure. She has described it in the past as ‘ok but annoying or irritating after a while’.

I can definitely relate to how your girlfriend feels about sex, though it seems she generally has more patience and emotional investment in a relationship than I ever would so I can't speak for her on how long the emotional reward will outweigh the physical tedium and disinterest. On the one hand, there is a level of trust you should put into what she says. On the other hand, her saying that she enjoys it does not outweigh your need to feel that intense reciprocation. It makes a lot of sense that you crave an equal level of intensity in your relationship. Many many people do. A number of sexual people on AVEN have expressed that, as Telecaster has above. I can't provide much guidance on the sexual side of things, but I hope coming here helps you work through it.

[Guest]

Only a few small changes and I could have written that. I have no advice for you... all I can say is that for me, the constant stress and worry and guilt about it made me lose most of my sexual interest in my partner. Things have been better since. Of course, I said "most", not "all", so it's still an ongoing issue.

 

The thing that AVENites seem to have a hard time comprehending is that sex can be both necessary for the relationship AND not the most important part of the relationship. Of course there are things that matter much, much more to you than sex. But then, we don't only participate in the very best behavior and avoid all others, right? Sex plays a role in a relationship... a unique bonding experience that's unlike anything else you share with others... so it doesn't have to be the most important to still be significant.

[Telecaster68]

The usual analogies are stuff like the engine isn't the most important part of a car but you wouldn't buy one without an engine. Or similarly, a house without a bathroom.

 

But analogies are a nightmare on AVEN as so many don't get them. There must be a reason for that...

[Bectionary]

First, I want to say a huge thank you to all who have commented so far, I understand that something of this personal a nature can be difficult to share, and I value all your words. I know I need to trust in what she says more, and I resolved to speak to her earlier. In fact it came about that because of how I have been feeling, I have been avoiding Sex altogether, which has resulted in the gf feeling a sense of rejection. I have also suggested she may want to sign up too as I feel she may find information and support here that might help. 

 

Second, and I completely forgot this earlier, here's a red velvet I made

http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=bpRy0IYlPgPW1T37RY17Foh4l5k2TGxc

 

[Guest]

That's a fight me and the ladyfriend are having right now, actually... she feels rejected and sad that I'm not as into her, sexually. I feel like that's too bad... now she's experiencing what I've experienced for many years, and I don't have a ton of sympathy. Still, I'm trying to be better about stuff. What I've learned is that she seems to really like when things seem like they're going to head toward sex, but then don't. Like, foreplay that just stops instead of continuing on.

[Joe the Stoic]

@Bectionary, sounds to me like you are in the clear, if she keeps saying the sex is okay.  Only when she says it is a problem should you treat it like one, I think.

[Telecaster68]

6 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

That's a fight me and the ladyfriend are having right now, actually... she feels rejected and sad that I'm not as into her, sexually. I feel like that's too bad... now she's experiencing what I've experienced for many years, and I don't have a ton of sympathy. Still, I'm trying to be better about stuff. What I've learned is that she seems to really like when things seem like they're going to head toward sex, but then don't. Like, foreplay that just stops instead of continuing on.

Not. At. All. Frustrating. 

[Guest]

hahaha you made me laugh out loud at my desk.

[Cimmerian]

5 hours ago, Bectionary said:

I'm hoping to get people's view on the concept of the mind-body disconnect that, from my research anyway, seems to be a common element in the experiences of an asexual person. The way the body will do what you typically expect during Sex, but the mind registers little or no pleasure and, in my gf case anyway, why there is always a part of her psyche that is separate, almost like an observer, analysing everything that happens, and never just getting lost in the moment. There's only so much I can learn academically, and I've asked my gf to explain it, which she does, but I always have a niggling doubt in the back of my mind that she's saying what she does to placate me, or make me feel less Shitty about what happens between us.

I did talk to her about what Sex means to me. The physical act for me at least, has very little to do with an emotional connection. And I said from the beginning that Sex didn't have to play a big part, or any part for that matter, in our relationship. But inevitably it has crept in, and what I find most difficult to comprehend is *why*. Yes, I like Sex, it can be fun, it's a release for me, it's something I like doing. But we do so much that means so much more. She's the one I like to cwtch up to and watch a film with, the one I want to laugh with, cry with, talk utter crap to just to hear her voice. When I'm sad I want no one but her, when I'm happy I want to share it with her. All this means so much more to me. But she worries that she's not met my needs or whatever.

 

My take on Sex is that no one should ever do, or be coerced, convinced, or otherwise forced into doing something they don't want to do and don't *enjoy* (v. Important bit right there). So for me the solution was simple. She doesn't derive any pleasure from Sex, so we don't do it. In my mind it was simple. But we do end up having Sex and after I always feel guilty because I feel selfish, and I feel like I've somehow *made* her do it, though I never initiate Sex. Ever. The gf says that although she doesn't necessarily get any physical pleasure from the act, she is attracted to me, and she feels the we emotionally connect in those moments in ways that I don't with anyone else. The gf tells me that she derives pleasure from what she can give me, and the pleasure I feel. She tells me that she thinks there is a mind-body disconnect (and we've checked) her body does all the ‘correct’ things, but her mind. . .  It's difficult to explain. The gf says that the best way she can describe it is that something is ‘building up’ but there's no point of peak, no release, no real pleasure. She has described it in the past as ‘ok but annoying or irritating after a while’.  For me it feels like she's quite happy for me to have all the fun as it were, but not get any pleasure for herself.

I find it so difficult to reconcile myself with this. No matter how much she tells me it's ok, I feel like it's not. Like somehow I am making her do this, like I'm being selfish. And if I'm totally honest, I want to give her what I get. I want her to get lost in the moment, to feel the way I do, but I can't. I want to make her as happy as she makes me, but I simply cannot comprehend her psyche because it's so fundamentally different from mine, and anyone else's I've ever met.

I relate quite a bit to how you're describing your girlfriend mind-set wise but I see why could still be concerned too, but it sounds like you've done a lot right so far.

 

I've thought a lot about being "convinced" or "coerced" into sex because it's a position I never want to be in, and this is what I personally found: Sex isn't something I'd seek out to do on my own, and isn't something I'd want to even do with every partner I had, but there are some aspects or acts that would be worth it to me if I was with a partner that I felt wasn't pushing for sex and my partner genuinely enjoyed them. In a case like that I wouldn't feel coerced into doing anything and would do it just to see my partner get pleasure from it and that would make me happy. I don't get lost in the moment easily at all, and I feel pleasure mentally on a much lesser scale than most people I know, so if she's anything like me some of what you want to give her may not be possible, but that doesn't mean that you aren't making her has happy as she makes you. You just get happiness over different aspects of it, like how some people feel loved when their partner spends time with them and others feel most loved when they see their partner doing little things like chores or errands for them. You may never totally understand why she sees things the way she does, or why she gets pleasure from the pleasure you feel rather than personal pleasure. Sometimes it's about taking someone at their word and hoping you create a strong enough relationship that they will tell you if something changes and doesn't make them happy anymore.

 

It's hard on both sides in situations like this, figuring out whether she feels coerced or not, her figuring out whether you might really want sex more than you say. And they're questions that may take a long time to feel sure of the answers you're getting, but it sounds like you're both trying to be as honest about it as possible, and that's a good sign.

 

I know you've said that you talked to her about sex, but I wanted to know: Did you mention the bolded part to her? The fact that other things you do together mean so much more to you? I think that's a good thing to make sure she knows now that you guys have been sexual, especially if you're concerned that she might be saying/doing it just to placate you.

If she knows that you enjoy others things you do together more and that you want her to be able to stop or not do anything she's uncomfortable with, that is probably the best guarantee you can provide her so she won't feel like she has to do anything-- and so if she continues to initiate sex you'd also have more peace of mind that she's doing it because she wants to make you feel good, not because she feels like she has to.

 

Beyond that, I think the best thing either of you can do is just trust what each other is saying, act in ways that support what you're both saying, and be willing to talk if circumstances change and either of you becomes uncomfortable with how things are.

[gisiebob]

you know, I'm not a religious person. I accept the righteousness of faith in others, the idea that that is their fire. as long as they don't try to tell me that's the only fuel. the only way to feel those corners and the speed connected to your feet is with an engine. I've driven an electric car, it isn't the same. but that's ok. passion that isn't your passion is still passion. I'll never ask someone to see the clouds as I look at them, even if I do suggest to them every once and awhile that they should look up. I have no intentions of informing anyone of my religious experience, that is MY fire. it doesn't matter at all that I haven't accepted this idea into my heart or bent my life towards this teaching or learned this vast cultural history. you want to give your friend a sense of fire, give them something beautiful? well maybe to her those are just clouds you are pointing at, but the idea that you would ask her to look at them is beautiful.

now does your friend believe they are asexual and you want to wrap your head around this OR do you have a friend who is asexual and you want to explore this love between the two of you together? 

[Guest]

moved topic to SPFA

Jayce, Asexual Relationships moderator.

[Bezzy-Loo]

23 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Absolutely, we should take our partners at their word, but there's a lot of posts where it's become clear that while asexuals are saying they're fine with having sex, it's more because they want to be fine with it than actually are, and over time it gets old for them. Both partners want everything all right that they're talking themselves into it, and over time, the sexual is actually making withdrawals from the over all bank of goodwill, with the enthusiastic consent of the asexual partner. Nobody's doing anything wrong, it's just not the situation they think it is.

That's why I said that periodically reminding the ace partner that sex isn't a necessarily thing is good. It's more likely to work out than to just assume the ace partner is just pretending and actually hating it.

[Ettina]

I haven't had sex (and never plan to), but I've tried masturbating, and my body has reactions similar to what I've heard described as orgasm, but it's not pleasurable for me. It just feels like my body is twitching uncontrollably. It's kind of weird and uncomfortable.

Recently I've discovered a fetish that can get me sexually excited (my vagina gets wet) by reading online fics, but masturbating still doesn't do anything for me. It's just like my body gets geared up and doesn't do anything with it. It's still probably the closest I've come to having actual sexual feelings, because it's a sexual physical reaction combined with mental pleasure and getting sucked in so it's hard to stop reading.