What does it mean to feel gender

[AVEN #1 fan]

24 minutes ago, Reptillian said:

Uh, no. It's more accurate to say that if one wants to be perceived as a girl, they must look more like a phenological female or something like that. Honestly, from my experience, people really never use behaviors of others to assign a pronoun of others, and they more likely to use how their bodies look like to assign pronouns to them. 

Quick guide for being perceived as your gender identity by other persons:

• Girl : be at least the minimum feminine as possible
• Boy: be at least the minimum masculine as possible
• Androgyne : be at least the minimum feminine + the minimum masculine as possible
• Neutrois : be gender neutral/unisex

 

• Agender: there's no way to be recognized as Agender by weirdos, unless if one say they are

 

Sorry we don't live in an ideal world and in reality people rarely ask what pronouns do you prefer when you compliment them.

[R_1]

2 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Quick guide for being perceived as your gender identity by other persons:

• Girl : be at least the minimum feminine as possible
• Boy: be at least the minimum masculine as possible
• Androgyne : be at least the minimum feminine + the minimum masculine as possible
• Neutrois : be gender neutral/unisex

 

• Agender: there's no way to be recognized as Agender by weirdos, unless if one say they are

 

Sorry we don't live in an ideal world and in reality people rarely ask what pronouns do you prefer when you compliment them.

So, you're saying that if I wear a dress, and I try to conform to the stereotype of a woman, people will automatically see me as a woman? Yeah, I can't see that at all if I have the body that looks more of what people see as a man.

[AVEN #1 fan]

Just now, Reptillian said:

So, you're saying that if I wear a dress, and I try to conform to the stereotype of a woman, people will automatically see me as a woman? Yeah, I can't see that at all if I have the body that looks more of what people see as a man.

Well, there's degrees of femininity and masculinity and androgyny and most Transgender men and women face it.

Transgender men and women happen to be viewed as crossdressers/travestis, genderqueer  people, man, woman, depending on how much they try to fit in stereotypes.

The "minimum" of femininity is debatable.

 

If you look the least   feminine enough to look PASSABLE (and that's subjective, some Trans woman fits the Cis stereotypes better than others) as a woman and do identifies as a woman and was born  male, somebody will  eventually treat you as one.

 

 

Everybody can get misgendered though, but Agender people are ALWAYS  misgendered.

Agender people can't pass as Agender no matter how hard they try.

[AVEN #1 fan]

I guess we can say the same "minimum" is not worth the same, depending if a person is cis or Trans.

[Dodecahedron314]

7 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Agender people actually don't care for how they're perceived (there's no exactly  description of what an agender person looks like, they're either perceived as man, woman, androgyne, neutrois, genderflux or genderfluid, everything but what they are, agender), bc none of them has a specific gender box to follow. They're fine as long as people accept them as agender.

Hello yes, counterexample in the form of an agender person who definitely cares about how they're perceived by others right here, how may I help you? 

7 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Well some do, but they can't blame anyone, there's no way to distinguish gendered people from agendered people, unless the person say they're agender.

Agender people will always be misgendered.

Am I, in fact, painfully aware that it's impossible for me to ever not be misgendered on sight, and do I rant about this sort of thing on a regular basis? Yes. Does that mean I have to like or accept it? No. I can't blame any one person for this, but I can sure as heck blame society's insistence on gender's usefulness as a primary, fundamental category that classifying someone into can tell you soooooo much about them that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gender.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Dodecahedron314 said:

Am I, in fact, painfully aware that it's impossible for me to ever not be misgendered on sight, and do I rant about this sort of thing on a regular basis? Yes. Does that mean I have to like or accept it? No. I can't blame any one person for this, but I can sure as heck blame society's insistence on gender's usefulness as a primary, fundamental category that classifying someone into can tell you soooooo much about them that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gender.

Yeah, true. I guess that people can't really tell if your agender if you don't come out to them as agender. But it's another story when they do know you are agender and purposefully misgender you. Then there is a reason to blame someone for it. But not accidently. I often noticed in the beginning that i felt offended when they accidently misgendered me but now im just more.. meh about it. But yeah, purpusefully misgendering people should never be ok.

 

As to how i feel gender: You just are what you are. I feel like a trans femme gentleman. That's how i feel my gender. I can't really speak for anyone else though but yeah, that's how i feel about it.

[Busrider]

Feeling gender?

I'm male and will remain so. - While I 'd happily buy a small underpowered pink car (if I needed to get a car) there is stuff I 'd consider not an option for me with my gender. I think females can be or wear whatever they want to, while some things are taboo for males. So gender is a leash to run against for me. I guess somebody determined to pass as female would consider some things too male for their role?

That being said I think I am barely ever gender conscious in living my life. Sometimes I notice the differences, adore them or shake my head over them.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Busrider said:

Feeling gender?

I'm male and will remain so. - While I 'd happily buy a small underpowered pink car (if I needed to get a car) there is stuff I 'd consider not an option for me with my gender. I think females can be or wear whatever they want to, while some things are taboo for males. So gender is a leash to run against for me. I guess somebody determined to pass as female would consider some things too male for their role?

That being said I think I am barely ever gender conscious in living my life. Sometimes I notice the differences, adore them or shake my head over them.

I don't care what things are gender stereotyped as, if I like them, I would do it (or whatever)... I wouldn't let "gender roles" dictate my actions or what I'm allowed to like.

[Busrider]

That's the female advantage for which I envy you a bit, Mystic Maya.

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Busrider said:

That's the female advantage for which I envy you a bit, Mystic Maya.

Since I'm mtf I know that society isn't kind to people who are perceived as male being feminine, but I think everyone should ignore those expectations even if it is difficult and attracts bad attention sometimes, if enough people do this, thing could change and people won't be as limited by the intolerance of others.

[sindi]

It's really hard to figure out what femaleness truly feels like, but at least for me, I don't think that the main thing is how I want to be perceived... Of course, if I totally looked like a guy (or was AMAB, but with the same gender I have now), I would feel dysphoria about my body and looks... but I still don't feel like the perception of others is the main thing about feeling a certain identity! More like being perceived as a wrong gender is a hindrance, but being perceived as the right gender is not the essence of gender. I also think that a large part of gender identity does come from social constructs (not gender itself, but many aspects of it), but that doesn't mean that it's 100% tied to your social status (how you're perceived). Even the "social constructs" become ingrained to the point, that you can relate to them on your own, without needing the perceptions of others to back you up. 

[Luftschlosseule]

I find it difficult to describe these feelings, and it's impossible to describe everything at one go since I am genderfluid and would have to describe different points of being.
There are days on which I feel like a woman, days that are distinctly agender, and today I have a day full of nothingness on which there isn't anything to describe, I just am. What it feels like changes. It's like... drinking a smoothie. You have apple and strawberry, and can have pure apple, pure strawberry, an equal mix of both but if you change the percentages you can't put a straight line to where one taste starts and the other ends. On some days it's possible, you have a strawberry day, on some days it's not. You need time to learn to make a distinction between shades of taste because they are so similiar.
(Sorry, winter time, I miss buying cheap fruits and I especially miss strawberries. For me, strawberries are awesome so it's a good comparison.)

 

Regardless what kind of day I have, I care how I am percieved and I hate that only very few people here know of the existence of non-binary genders and I hope that that will change in the future. That's a reason why I'd prefer having a neutral option. I could use it on every person until I know their gender.
It's like I don't assume a person is single or in a relationship on the first meeting, I just have a person. Maybe I'll get to know more, maybe not. Or from which country somebody is, you can only assume from which countries their ancestors came.

[Emery.]

Like a whisper at the bottom of my soul, it's like... I just know deep down, a sense of self, a set of instincts, a calling, a natural direction of drift, substance of being, something instrinsic as opposed to learnt, things I don't need to be taught, I just know how to behave like I guy, I don't need to try, but I have to put effort and try to be a girl. I know it's a very vague way to describe it, but it's not like I knew straight ahead what was happening with me until people started calling me out on being a "manly lesbian" or "third gender" (which is basically binary trans but with body kept as is). Feeling? A transient state? Not really. Basically who you are at your core and essence - and how it relates to the outside world. Everyone has more feminine and more masculine days, happier and sadder days, but the overall picture is as it is. Many people have souls that are not gender specific, mine is not clear cut either, but I lean strongly towards the same direction as men. Dysphoria? No, I don't have dysphoria. I feel good as I am, the only bad feels come from other people telling me to woman up or that I'm nuts or broken to identify as male and talking myself into something because blah blah blah.

[cooliocool]

As a cisgender man who is masculine in many ways, I have had a hard time understanding what it means to feel gender. I personally don't know how to put it in words but I will give it a try.

 

It's one of those things that you either feel it or you don't. It's the label/concept/identity that you feel/think that relates to you and fits you the most. 

 

It's hard to describe these things because you know it so well and you're the only one who feels it. It's almost impossible to put it entirely in words. 

[deactivated account]

Just in need of some sort of confirmation.

I haven't a problem understanding Trans people feeling body dysphoria. and not feeling as if they have the right sex/gender. which can result in wanting to change themselves biologically.

However there seems to be a group of people wanting to use x pronoun because they feel masculine/feminine/neither/both etc

I don't think minds are capable of feeling "feminine" which describes a female stereotype. that no one has a set-in-stone description of. people may say pink and frilly dresses. But i can see those same people tripping over their words when there is a woman who isn't obsessed with pink and frills (yet are very very feminine.) approaches them.

On top of claiming to feel something that the average person can't pin point a set list of things to. To claim to feel something that isn't a feeling (chemically) is rather absurd. one can feel cold, sad, stressed. but feminine? .... i'm not sure about that.

As a female. i can't "feel" feminine. I might look girly, or act girly, or speak girly. but not "feel" girly (i can be girly though). looking, acting and/or speaking a certain way really just reminds me of personalities. so recently i've been trying to understand personality as what people are calling gender these days.

Would it be fair to say that what people are calling gender is equivalent to personality in a masculine feminine sense?

Gender and sex used to mean the same thing once. when a trans person transitions. there is only one option for them. transition to male or female. So i was rather shocked that some people claim that there are 72+ genders. I would really like to see someone draw them all.

i think it would be appropriate to conclude that todays definition of gender has nothing to do with body dysphoria (since there is not 72+ options to transition to) and more to do with weather you like wearing skirts or not? looking at different genders the term "expression" comes up a lot (looking, acting and/or speaking)
am i missing something?

to clarify. i don't have a problem with people wanting to use different pronouns.. I don't have a problem with anything really. I'm just trying to understand if a biological female, who identifies as male, not because they have body dysphoria but because they believe themselves to be masculine. is the same as being a tomboy?

[Emery.]

8 hours ago, AndyAce said:

On top of claiming to feel something that the average person can't pin point a set list of things to. To claim to feel something that isn't a feeling (chemically) is rather absurd. one can feel cold, sad, stressed. but feminine? .... i'm not sure about that

 

...

i think it would be appropriate to conclude that todays definition of gender has nothing to do with body dysphoria (since there is not 72+ options to transition to) and more to do with weather you like wearing skirts or not? looking at different genders the term "expression" comes up a lot (looking, acting and/or speaking)
am i missing something?

to clarify. i don't have a problem with people wanting to use different pronouns.. I don't have a problem with anything really. I'm just trying to understand if a biological female, who identifies as male, not because they have body dysphoria but because they believe themselves to be masculine. is the same as being a tomboy?

I don't agree. I feel feminine or masculine on certain days, and it has a lot to do with hormone levels, like menstrual cycle (I'm trans male). It means certain desires and behaviours coming naturally. There are days those desires and behaviours are more or less stereotypically masculine or feminine, like wanting to dress nice or feeling more romantic or more aggressive, or finding different kinds of people physically or emotionally attractive.

 

Gender identity is how you identify, as simple as that. How you see yourself fit with other people gender-wise. If you're a man, woman, none of them... To what extend and how... A lot of people choose to express the way they identify with clothing, not the other way round. So e.g. I wear men's clothing to express my gender, but e.g. skirts per say, I have nothing against skirts.

 

Is it the same as being a tomboy? Depends on how you define "tomboy", I guess. "Tomboy" is a pretty broad term combining masculinity with femleness, so in a sense it could be like you say. But to me "tomboy" carries the meaning of someone female, be it in body or mind, who has a masculine expression, so e.g. likes sports and cars, or guyish clothes, for whatever reason - because it is more natural for her, because she finds it beneficial, because that's how she was raised... To me, a tomboy can be a cis woman who is an athlete or a punk, or a trans woman who is interested in cars, but feels herself to be a woman. A trans man is someone who is more a man than a woman on the inside - in the way he thinks, feels, relates to the world, so it could go under "tomboy", but in my opinion gender identity is more internal, and "tomboy" describes the external, not dwelling on why. On the other hand a trans man can be feminine just like a woman can be masculine. So a trans man can be someone who feels himself to be a man, but doesn't exhibit any traits that are considered masculine, so e.g. can be gay and a fashion designer, not like sports and have no idea about cars whatsoever. It's more... a deep-seated sense of self in relation to others.

 

Hope that helps.

[ooka]

I'm loving this whole discussion. I'm gender neutral most of the time and personally don't care how the world perceives me mostly.  What does upset me when it happens (and it happens way more often than I have patience for)  is when someone decides they've misgendered me and then they fall all over themselves trying to cajole me into making them feel better about their error.  "Excuse me sir,  OH NO MA'AM!  I'M SO SORRY MA'AM." "it's ok' "NOOOO!  MA'AM  YOU HAVE TO FORGIVE MEEEEE!"  

I've had perfect strangers express anger at me for not presenting in such a way as to help them avoid making such an error.  

As far as feeling gender? I'm most comfortable when I'm not feeling it at all.  When I can strap down my top enough-not necessary to pass - but enough that I don't have to think about it.  When I can walk down the street without getting catcalled.  When I can command respect with my voice and just get things done.  

[deactivated account]

6 hours ago, Emery. said:

I don't agree. I feel feminine or masculine on certain days, and it has a lot to do with hormone levels, like menstrual cycle (I'm trans male). It means certain desires and behaviours coming naturally. There are days those desires and behaviours are more or less stereotypically masculine or feminine, like wanting to dress nice or feeling more romantic or more aggressive, or finding different kinds of people physically or emotionally attractive.

 

Gender identity is how you identify, as simple as that. How you see yourself fit with other people gender-wise. If you're a man, woman, none of them... To what extend and how... A lot of people choose to express the way they identify with clothing, not the other way round. So e.g. I wear men's clothing to express my gender, but e.g. skirts per say, I have nothing against skirts.

 

Is it the same as being a tomboy? Depends on how you define "tomboy", I guess. "Tomboy" is a pretty broad term combining masculinity with femleness, so in a sense it could be like you say. But to me "tomboy" carries the meaning of someone female, be it in body or mind, who has a masculine expression, so e.g. likes sports and cars, or guyish clothes, for whatever reason - because it is more natural for her, because she finds it beneficial, because that's how she was raised... To me, a tomboy can be a cis woman who is an athlete or a punk, or a trans woman who is interested in cars, but feels herself to be a woman. A trans man is someone who is more a man than a woman on the inside - in the way he thinks, feels, relates to the world, so it could go under "tomboy", but in my opinion gender identity is more internal, and "tomboy" describes the external, not dwelling on why. On the other hand a trans man can be feminine just like a woman can be masculine. So a trans man can be someone who feels himself to be a man, but doesn't exhibit any traits that are considered masculine, so e.g. can be gay and a fashion designer, not like sports and have no idea about cars whatsoever. It's more... a deep-seated sense of self in relation to others.

 

Hope that helps.

That might be due to you being a trans male. that you are able to feel a change in your hormones that is feminine/masculine

"There are days those desires and behaviours are more or less stereotypically masculine or feminine, like wanting to dress nice or feeling more romantic or more aggressive" that kind of stuff translates to personality. i know a handful of guys wanting to look more attractive, are hopeless romantics and can act very gentle. I also know of very brutal and aggressive women. a lady in particular who i'd describe as aggressive in a  feminine, sexy way.

personality is something rather difficult to categorise when it is based on stereotypical feminine and masculine traits. someone once said there are probably infinite genders. i know there are infinite personalities. 

hmn. i'm not sure if you understood what i meant. i'm sure trans men may have called themselves tomboys once in their lives before figuring it was not enough. and there was something much deeper they had an issue with (body dysphoria)

I don't think a trans person could answer my question really. I'm sure it's a rather small percentage of the population who want to use different pronouns for comfort and convenience. and another small percentage who base their "gender" on things such as being sporty, wanting to wear boys/girls clothes, wanting to wear makeup

I wonder if i was in a crowd of people who all used different gender pronouns to what they are biologically. maybe i would feel pressured to call myself Gender neutural. since i'm not particularly a very masculine or feminine person. maybe i'd want they pronouns or zir pronouns? (as of now, everyone calls me she and it doesn't bother me at all)

however this "finding different kinds of people physically or emotionally attractive." is a bit confusing... isn't that dependant on who is around you at the time? Or would it be possible to romantically like a girl when you you feel masculine. then stop liking her when you feel feminine. then start liking her again when you feel masculine? that would be rather interesting.... but it also sounds stressful?

[Emery.]

I think I just pay attention a lot more than a "normal" person.

 

"that kind of stuff translates to personality. "

I don't get what you're getting at in that paragraph. Of course people are different. It doesn't change the fact that the average is as it is and that's where the stereotypes come from. But it's just that: an average, and of course a lot of people deviate from it more or less, and in whichever direction.

 

No. I think it's not separated enough. There are people who transition from one sex to the other. There are people who identify as something else than what their birth sex says. For some people the two overlap, for some they don't. A trans man is a person is someone assigned female at birth, who "feels" male more than female. He might transition to male or not. If he doesn't he's still a trans man. Some people identify their gender off the transition they undergo and that's okey too. I wouldn't call discomfort with body a deep thing. It's literally the surface of things, the exterior. I would call self-identity the deep thing.

 

Everyone has their own unique self-discover process and I can only speak for myself. If someone prefers to identify as a he because he likes sports, all the cake to them as long as it makes them happier, IMO.

 

Shifts in sexual orientation... what can I say? It does depend on who is around, and it also changes like you described. I once dated a guy only to find out later that I stopped being into any man for a nice couple of months. I dupmed the guy. However. There are people out there who have a "lucky combo" of traits and it doesn't happen.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

22 hours ago, AndyAce said:

On top of claiming to feel something that the average person can't pin point a set list of things to. To claim to feel something that isn't a feeling (chemically) is rather absurd. one can feel cold, sad, stressed. but feminine? .... i'm not sure about that.

As a female. i can't "feel" feminine. I might look girly, or act girly, or speak girly. but not "feel" girly (i can be girly though). looking, acting and/or speaking a certain way really just reminds me of personalities. so recently i've been trying to understand personality as what people are calling gender these days.

Would it be fair to say that what people are calling gender is equivalent to personality in a masculine feminine sense?

Or would it be more apt to say 'a rose by any other name is......'?

 

Often when cispeople try to navigate these waters, it may come off as the cis equivalent of mansplaining. Have you ever felt like the words to this old song:

 

Quote

Well you walk into a restaurant,
Strung out from the road
And you feel the eyes upon you
As you're shakin' off the cold
You pretend it doesn't bother you

But you just want to explode
Most times you can't hear 'em talk,
Other times you can
All the same old cliches,
"Is that a woman or a man?"
And you always seem outnumbered,
You don't dare make a stand

No ?

 

And if there's nothing to these feelings, nothing to suggest can _only_ be explained merely by 'personality' , why do people sometimes mistaken me for the opposite of my birth sex?  I can't transition because of medical reasons, but when I try, I can pass pretty well as female. If it were all 'personality', why is it that I can do that somewhat effortlessly?

 

Why did some boys sexually assault me one spring afternoon, saying it was 'corrective'?

 

Why do  I get called a 'people person'-- get promoted to a supervisory position, only to get demoted less than 6 months later because I was thought to  be too much of a 'soft touch'.

 

This is all academic, I guess, to a cisperson who doesn't have to deal with the nuclear fallout of those slings, arrows and bombs of transwhateverness. 

 

But to some of us, it's where we live and hurt. A rose by another name with lots of really nasty thorns. No wonder some folks look for a kindler and gentler way of feeling that what might seem like Flavor of the Month, but is really more a sign of still waters running deep.

[deactivated account]

23 hours ago, Emery. said:

I don't get what you're getting at in that paragraph.

whether it is or isn't a stereotype. the things to listed are personality traits that any gender can have. stereotype doesn't always equal majority. though of course i haven't looked up studies on things like which gender is more interested in looks and romance... it kinds seems like both would be equally interested in that specifically
 

23 hours ago, Emery. said:

A trans man is a person is someone assigned female at birth, who "feels" male more than female. He might transition to male or not. If he doesn't he's still a trans man.

of course. not everyone can afford to pay to transition. but i'd assume the body dysphoria would still be there.
 

23 hours ago, Emery. said:

I wouldn't call discomfort with body a deep thing

discomfort doesn't sound nearly as mentally troubling as dysphoria. but i call a mental disturbance deep, since it takes a little more effort to deal with. but sure, you are free to think as you wish on that matter.
 

23 hours ago, Emery. said:

If someone prefers to identify as a he because he likes sports, all the cake to them

sure. people have freedoms. like i said before. i don't have a problem with people wanting to use different pronouns XD

If they are really doing that though. it seems to just be enforcing gender stereotypes.

 

23 hours ago, Emery. said:

No. I think it's not separated enough

what do you mean?

[deactivated account]

23 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Often when cispeople try to navigate these waters, it may come off as the cis equivalent of mansplaining.

i find the term "mansplaining" rather offensive and sexist. If i was asking a question or talking about something. and someone told me stop womansplaining. I take that to be equivalent of "stop talking about this because you are a woman" what does something i can't control have to do with the validity of a point i am trying to get across? if the answer is experience. then please tell me which scientist had to become a horse to explain the biology of a horse?

-o- sorry if i sound rude. but i don't appreciate sexism in any form. 
I am trying to understand something i am struggling to get my head around. if you have some information to completely change my mind. present it and i will listen politely.
 

 

23 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

If it were all 'personality', why is it that I can do that somewhat effortlessly?

this is not really the grounds i was treading on. but you probably pass as female because you look female. there are a handful of biological differences between men and women; bone structure, hair line, proportions, body structure etc. (this stuff also differs depending on race)

 

23 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

I guess, to a cisperson who doesn't have to deal with the nuclear fallout of those slings

sorry you had to go through those things. but if you implying that i would not have to deal with sexual assault and/or being demoted from a job because i am cis? then i'd just point you to google. it happens all the time. not to me personally. but i am an individual. my experiences are completely unique to the person besides me. this is rather off topic

what about the 72 genders thing? If i were to speak of them in terms of body dysphoria. then being genderless would mean that you feel dysphoric in any body.

Genderless:
"The state of having no gender identity, regardless of physical sex. 
Not nessacerily the same as an androgyne, but they both appear androgynous. 
Genderless people may or may not pursue hormone replacement therapy and/or surgery."

it does bother me that people are defining gender with more gender. but it's hard to find definitions that refer to body dysphoria besides trans people. because i do understand that. If i were to ask someone "what is tape?" i feel like they are responding with "there is masking tape which has a papery texture on one side. there is tape that is double sided. there is really shiny tape and even see-through tape" i still don't know what tape is

when you talk of gender without body dysphoria what are you talking about?
when i ask myself that. my result is personality. so if someone thinks the same or otherwise, i'd love to know.

or are my questions too complex? i don't mind. i do tend to want to question things that most might not.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

8 hours ago, AndyAce said:

i find the term "mansplaining" rather offensive and sexist. If i was asking a question or talking about something. and someone told me stop womansplaining. I take that to be equivalent of "stop talking about this because you are a woman" what does something i can't control have to do with the validity of a point i am trying to get across? if the answer is experience. then please tell me which scientist had to become a horse to explain the biology of a horse?

-o- sorry if i sound rude. but i don't appreciate sexism in any form. 
I am trying to understand something i am struggling to get my head around. if you have some information to completely change my mind. present it and i will listen politely.
 

 

this is not really the grounds i was treading on. but you probably pass as female because you look female. there are a handful of biological differences between men and women; bone structure, hair line, proportions, body structure etc. (this stuff also differs depending on race)

 

sorry you had to go through those things. but if you implying that i would not have to deal with sexual assault and/or being demoted from a job because i am cis? then i'd just point you to google. it happens all the time. not to me personally. but i am an individual. my experiences are completely unique to the person besides me. this is rather off topic

what about the 72 genders thing? If i were to speak of them in terms of body dysphoria. then being genderless would mean that you feel dysphoric in any body.

Genderless:
"The state of having no gender identity, regardless of physical sex. 
Not nessacerily the same as an androgyne, but they both appear androgynous. 
Genderless people may or may not pursue hormone replacement therapy and/or surgery."

it does bother me that people are defining gender with more gender. but it's hard to find definitions that refer to body dysphoria besides trans people. because i do understand that. If i were to ask someone "what is tape?" i feel like they are responding with "there is masking tape which has a papery texture on one side. there is tape that is double sided. there is really shiny tape and even see-through tape" i still don't know what tape is

when you talk of gender without body dysphoria what are you talking about?
when i ask myself that. my result is personality. so if someone thinks the same or otherwise, i'd love to know.

or are my questions too complex? i don't mind. i do tend to want to question things that most might not.

No, I just feel that when you set out to invalidate peoples' gender identities using the types of logic you're responding with here, you fall into the same Essentialist snares you're decrying. Maybe people don't like having to debate what they feel, and they push back against that same Essentialism. That in trying to understand by only considering evidence *you* judge pertinent, you're hopelessly Heisenberging your own inquiry. To use your own analogy turned on its head, maybe it's like a horse trying to understand the scientists on its back?

 

THe map is not the territory. The map doesn't have the lions and tigers and bears pencilled in. Nothing on the map can prepare you or enlighten you on what it's like to walk the territory. Sometimes, the only way to get the data that will unlock your understanding is a principle from Japanese industrialists known  s Genchi Genbutsu. It translates to 'Go and see'.

 

Do what Norah Vincent did to write the book 'Self Made Man'. She lived as a man for 18 months. She came away from the experience a lot sadder and wiser and claimed it so unnerved her aftewards that she checked into a mental instititution for a spell. Sadly, though, she came away with a somewhat jaundiced view of trans folks, but the book is still a good read.

 

IDK, having, as they say, 'Skin in the Game' changes everything. And you can't get that from Google.

[Emery.]

5 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

She lived as a man for 18 months. She came away from the experience a lot sadder and wiser and claimed it so unnerved her aftewards that she checked into a mental instititution for a spell.

Do you mean living as a man or something she was not unnerved her so much?

 

13 hours ago, AndyAce said:

whether it is or isn't a stereotype. the things to listed are personality traits that any gender can have. stereotype doesn't always equal majority. though of course i haven't looked up studies on things like which gender is more interested in looks and romance... it kinds seems like both would be equally interested in that specifically

To me it doesn't seem so *shug*. I have dwelled a very long time on that, trying to pinpoint what's up with me, I read some studies, I observed on my own. Either way, I was trying to explain what it means to feel feminine or masculine, and in my opinion, person of any gender can feel masculine or feminine, or any combination thereof. I used to think I'm gender fluid, because of that.

 

13 hours ago, AndyAce said:

of course. not everyone can afford to pay to transition. but i'd assume the body dysphoria would still be there.

No. Being trans is not about body dysphoria. How much more can I emphasize it? For some people it is, but for some people it is not. Some trans people don't feel like their desired gender but feel like being in the wrong body, some the opposite. Nevertheless, the core of being trans is having a mind that doesn't "match" your body. The trans person doesn't need to be upset with it, but it can be very difficult to live in such a state and for many it is. When your body is lying about you. It's not what you desire. It's not a body image issue.

 

I think it might be difficult for a cis person to understand, because all the things "match up". Say, you're female and if you imagine you'd transform into a guy, you assume that some of your mental or emotional qualities, some instincts would change with your body. Being trans means you have the instincts of the opposite sex and feel like your body was that sex - except it's not. It's like you get an operating system, drivers and the such for a one model of a car, and insert that computer into another model instead. Some things are working, because that and that is a car and fairly similar, so you can eat, live, work etc., but some functions just don't match up, like sexuality-related things, dating, mother instincts. And people don't realise they have it already built-in by nature until you get a set of things that you have no chance that you could have learnt or acquired via puberty. A lot of people are gender-versatile as well...

 

I also second Caligraphette. I pass for a guy who looks like a girl and wears skirts, sometimes. It doesn't go under "you look male". My body is somewhat androgynous, but in a skirt and in make-up, I would assume that's a body of a girl, quite rationally.

13 hours ago, AndyAce said:

it seems to just be enforcing gender stereotypes.

Why? It's just a word. Some people are more like the opposite sex and feel objectified when called by pronouns that is just flesh for them, and not something they identify as people. If for someone football constitutes their personhood, it would be respectful to call them a "he". For me, science and technology constitute my personhood. That's called identity. Also, I don't agree that acknowledging sex differences and personal differences is the same as "enforcing stereotypes". The latter would be if you told that person to do something more girly because they have a vagina or to... identify as fully female or not be vocal about their gender identity.

 

13 hours ago, AndyAce said:

what do you mean?

I mean that ... I already wrote under the third quote in this post.

[Enbious1]

As someone else here mentioned about being about to relate to a gender as a whole, I think that is where identification lies, in how we relate to any defined thing. I don't fully know how best to explain how it is that I feel. I guess in simple terms, I wish that I was born into a female body, but I don't want to be female. I am agender. It's all very strange. I suppose it is all because of what society labels as being male, female, or something else that we can relate to one gender or another or maybe different ones on different days. Maybe if we stopped focusing on gender differences as a society, some wouldn't need to feel they better align with a different gender than that assigned to them at birth. All of that being said, Some people know they were just given the wrong body, which is how I feel.

[Dodecahedron314]

23 hours ago, AndyAce said:

what about the 72 genders thing? If i were to speak of them in terms of body dysphoria. then being genderless would mean that you feel dysphoric in any body.

Genderless:
"The state of having no gender identity, regardless of physical sex. 
Not nessacerily the same as an androgyne, but they both appear androgynous. 
Genderless people may or may not pursue hormone replacement therapy and/or surgery."

Hi! Hello there. Hey. Yup, this is me. You may think this is a clever reductio ad absurdum, but this is, in fact, a thing that I experience as someone who doesn't have a gender. It's...pretty not great, to be honest. I assure you that it's not a pleasant experience to have it be literally impossible to be 100% okay with your own physical existence, or even for people to use the correct pronouns for you on sight because passing as agender isn't possible because society has no concept of people as divorced from the concept of gender, let alone any archetype to compare people to and sort them into gender-having or not-gender-having the way it sorts everyone into male and female. It's utterly inconceivable to the vast majority of humanity that I could possibly not have an internal sense of gender, and yet here I am. Funny how that works, isn't it?  

 

When you're agender, it's not so much a matter of perpetually being put into the wrong conceptual box based on your physical "box" (i.e. bodily characteristics related to your assigned gender) as it is a matter of there being no possible box that makes any sense for you in either the conceptual or physical sense. And no, this isn't a "well, just make your own box then!" kind of deal, because again, these boxes by nature are something I cannot inhabit, no matter what boxes they are or where they came from. If it's a box, it doesn't work, that's just how it goes. There's no box, there are no people in the box with you, there are no decorations or bits of tape attached to the walls of the box, there are no other contents of the box, the box just isn't there. As you could imagine, this makes it quite perplexing when people insist that you're in a box, when there's no box to be found and the word "box" isn't even in your identity vocabulary. Gender is so entrenched in society that it's impossible to have a body that's truly free from gendered assumptions--flat chest? Male. Non-flat chest? Female. Wide hips? Female. Narrow hips? Male. etc.--and it's impossible to interact with another unfamiliar human being without them making assumptions about you based on that, and as an agender person, it's impossible to fit those assumptions. Even if the conclusions the person draws are correct, the way they drew them is invalid, and the premise and the process are intrinsically part of the result.   

 

This wasn't intended to be a rant, but I don't entirely take kindly to being used as someone else's rhetorical device. Though I must confess that I find the fact that this original statement was intended to be a "gotcha!" of sorts quite amusing. I may not have a gender, but I do have something of a taste for irony.  

[Emery.]

4 hours ago, Octandempus said:

some wouldn't need to feel they better align with a different gender than that assigned to them at birth.

Excuse me? What is wrong with feeling like that in the first place? That's a fact for some people and you suggest them to deny it?

[Enbious1]

2 minutes ago, Emery. said:

Excuse me? What is wrong with feeling like that in the first place? That's a fact for some people and you suggest them to deny it?

I do not mean anyone to deny anything. Most people who do not identify with their assigned gender just know that they were born in the wrong body, but a few feel like they relate to another gender solely because of how society differentiates genders when every person has similarities and differences with one another despite what gender they are.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

13 hours ago, Emery. said:

Do you mean living as a man or something she was not unnerved her so much?

If I recall correctly, she committed herself because she was suffering from a very deep depression and felt she was on the verge of self harm. She wrote a book about her experiences in the institution, but I haven't read that one, only synopsis. So from what I gather, it had only a small amount to do with her 18 months of crossliving. She did express some regrets in the book about having felt like she unfairly deceived some of the people she interacted with during that time. Some of them she came out to later on, some she didn't.

 

Keep in mind, at no time did/does Vincent claim to be transgender. In fact, in her opinion, people should not take hormones or have SRS or other surgical procedures-- that that do so is somewhat self-deception and should be avoided. I, of course, disagree with that conclusion, but that in no way makes what she wrote about gender less poignant.

 

In a way, I understand the depression she may have been feeling. For different reasons, when  I had my medical meltdown and was denied the opportunity to do hormones, et al, I went into a deep melancholia, and also wondered if I would self-harm more than the usual stuff people with PTSD do to themselves.

 

Not a nice place to be......

[ChillaKilla]

22 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Keep in mind, at no time did/does Vincent claim to be transgender. In fact, in her opinion, people should not take hormones or have SRS or other surgical procedures-- that that do so is somewhat self-deception and should be avoided. I, of course, disagree with that conclusion, but that in no way makes what she wrote about gender less poignant.

Wait... so she felt extreme dysphoria FIRSTHAND but she still claims HRT and SRS are bad? What in the...?