why don't crossdressers have a flag?

[A. Lynn Lee]

In many cultures crossdresser and transvestite are terms that refer to trans people, nb people, and anyone that blurs gender norms in terms of expression or gender roles. For example, where my Filipino family live, bakla (a filipino word for gay) refers to feminine men, men who wear women's clothing (cross dressers), and transwomen. The conflation of several terms isn't because the culture is inherently transphobic but because they have a different perspective on gender and gender roles. Referring to someone as a crossdresser or a number of terms that translate to the T-word isn't a matter of respect, it's a language difference. In that case, crossdresser could absolutely be a gender identity and it could be a positive thing for them to have a flag.

Now, in the U.S. crossdresser generally refers to a variety of gender expressions and a few specific behaviors. However, unless crossdressing is the *only* way a person can receive sexual arousal/gratification; it cannot be diagnosed as a paraphilia. In the American psychological community variation is the norm. If a behavior doesn't cause distress, dysfunction, or danger to oneself or others then it would be unethical for a psychological professional to "treat it." I can't find any disorder in the DSM5 where crossdressing is seen as a delusion or a symptom of a psychotic disorder. Some crossdressers are fetishists, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's important to remember that people crossdress for all kinds of reasons, not just sexual ones. (Sorry, I just got done explaining this to an undergrad psych class and my nerd is showing.)

Aven #1 fan, maybe you should design a flag. Bars of solid colors are popular for pride flags (or flags in general) because they're easier to sew but really, the sky's the limit in the online world.

[Sally]

There are thousands of different cultures around the world, but AVEN is a culture also.  What I read above is one person talking about what's done in their country's culture, and other people talking about what's done on AVEN.  Since we're all on AVEN, that culture (i.e., TOS) is probably most salient.   

[AVEN #1 fan]

39 minutes ago, A. Lynn Lee said:

In many cultures crossdresser and transvestite are terms that refer to trans people, nb people, and anyone that blurs gender norms in terms of expression or gender roles. For example, where my Filipino family live, bakla (a filipino word for gay) refers to feminine men, men who wear women's clothing (cross dressers), and transwomen. The conflation of several terms isn't because the culture is inherently transphobic but because they have a different perspective on gender and gender roles. Referring to someone as a crossdresser or a number of terms that translate to the T-word isn't a matter of respect, it's a language difference. In that case, crossdresser could absolutely be a gender identity and it could be a positive thing for them to have a flag.

Now, in the U.S. crossdresser generally refers to a variety of gender expressions and a few specific behaviors. However, unless crossdressing is the *only* way a person can receive sexual arousal/gratification; it cannot be diagnosed as a paraphilia. In the American psychological community variation is the norm. If a behavior doesn't cause distress, dysfunction, or danger to oneself or others then it would be unethical for a psychological professional to "treat it." I can't find any disorder in the DSM5 where crossdressing is seen as a delusion or a symptom of a psychotic disorder. Some crossdressers are fetishists, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's important to remember that people crossdress for all kinds of reasons, not just sexual ones. (Sorry, I just got done explaining this to an undergrad psych class and my nerd is showing.)

Aven #1 fan, maybe you should design a flag. Bars of solid colors are popular for pride flags (or flags in general) because they're easier to sew but really, the sky's the limit in the online world.

Great explanation, in my place crossdresser is used to refer to any crossdressing, Trans or individual in drag by transphobes, gay is also a "one size fits all".

 

If I could draw a flag, I would, but I don't identify as a n-b crossdresser  (travesti) to do such, that's why I'm here, I had hopes any crossdresser could give me a suggest for a meaningful pride flag or show me their own.

[A. Lynn Lee]

Cultural salience is not a good reason to censure speech. It also isn't license to disparage someone else's culture, which I'm seeing a lot of in this thread. Also, AVEN is meant to be a community for all cultures, not just the western ones. We cannot purport to be a community for all aces if we erupt in demeaning comments any time someone says something different than what's considered acceptable in the dominant culture. I see a lot of one perspective in this thread and not a lot from cultures where speaking up and making a fuss aren't socially acceptable. I had hoped to add something to the conversation.

I'm not saying it's okay to use the t-slur or break the ToS. I'm saying that it's possible to remind everyone of that without being eurocentric and elitist. Also, the point of my comment was that it's perfectly valid for someone to use "crossdresser" as an identity word, or at least a term that has a lot of different meanings.

And with that, I'm unfollowing this thread. Peace out people.

[Sally]

I don't think anyone was disparaging a culture; they were trying to indicate that one person's culture was one person's culture, and what people believed/said in that culture didn't carry over to all cultures.  That's important because AVEN is a world-wide forum.   We could all argue with each other about definitions  of words that are different in each of our hundreds of microcultures, but that would be kind of useless.  AVEN has ToS as its culture; that was my point.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Perhaps blue/green/pink diagonally? Has the genders but is easily distinguishable from other flags.

[AVEN #1 fan]

I'd like a lot if somebody (preferably a crossdress ) sent me a diagram image and explained it's meaning.

[daveb]

16 hours ago, A. Lynn Lee said:

Cultural salience is not a good reason to censure speech. It also isn't license to disparage someone else's culture, which I'm seeing a lot of in this thread. Also, AVEN is meant to be a community for all cultures, not just the western ones. We cannot purport to be a community for all aces if we erupt in demeaning comments any time someone says something different than what's considered acceptable in the dominant culture. I see a lot of one perspective in this thread and not a lot from cultures where speaking up and making a fuss aren't socially acceptable. I had hoped to add something to the conversation.

I'm not saying it's okay to use the t-slur or break the ToS. I'm saying that it's possible to remind everyone of that without being eurocentric and elitist. Also, the point of my comment was that it's perfectly valid for someone to use "crossdresser" as an identity word, or at least a term that has a lot of different meanings.

And with that, I'm unfollowing this thread. Peace out people.

@A. Lynn Lee, I am glad you posted and appreciate your input!  I can understand why you don't want to follow the thread though.  

[Chardog]

22 hours ago, daveb said:

To the best of my knowledge and understanding crossdressing and drag queens/kings are 2 different things. And then there are female impersonators (and possibly male impersonators?). The differences are both in the way they dress and present themselves and in how they identify and in the reasons and motivations for why they do these things.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't do it to entertain anyone. I don't do it just for fun (even though I do it for fun sometimes). It goes deeper than that. I don't do it for fetish reasons (not that there's anything wrong with that and it shouldn't be pathologized). I do it because sometimes I like to feel "pretty". I do it because it expresses some part of me that has absorbed and identifies with societal definitions of the feminine. In other words, there is some gender expression in it for me. And I do it because I like to.

 

I have no ideas for flag designs, but I have no need or desire for flags myself. Good luck to you @AVEN #1 fan in your flag quest!

Spelling this out:

There is Crossdressing- a verb and Crossdressers- a noun (stand alone identity). 

 

Crossdressing can be a form of gender expression on its own. It is an action that may or may not express an identity.

Crossdressers, as an identity on its own (also known as transvestites) are people who do generally dress as the opposite gender for fetishistic purposes.

Drag and impersonators do crossdress (verb), but are not crossdressers (identity).

 

Not every person who participates in the action of crossdressing (verb) is a crossdresser (stand alone identity- not representative of expressing).