Gender Confusion

[The Mechanic]

I started looking at agender info and now I'm confused about my gender.  Physically I'm a guy, no denying that, but mentally is a different story.  Mentally I don't feel really like what either gender "should" according to cultural stereotypes. I feel almost no sense of belonging with other guys because I think so differently than they do and am interested in the opposite kinds of things.

 

I guess I'm agender/agender-ish?

[Mezzo Forte]

All the power to the people who can figure out the mental side of nonbinary identity. Even though I know I'm a man, I couldn't really tell you what it feels like to be one. (I'm not exactly a shining example of machismo. If anything, my personality is probably a touch androgynous.) Honestly, after 4+ years of questioning, I gave up on trying to figure out the mental aspect of gender and I ultimately simplified my concept of gender to whether or not transition would improve my quality of life. 

 

Still, I can relate to that issue of not fully belonging with people who fit the extremes of gender expectations. (Let's just say that my experiences with business school gave me more than enough motivation to keep surrounding myself with musicians and artists.) I felt especially alienated around women who fit extreme feminine expectations though.

 

Obviously, I'm not agender, so I wouldn't know how to ID what you're experiencing even if I could peer directly into your head. I can try to give some general advice about questioning though. For my romantic orientation, trying on labels really helped, because the aromantic label allowed me to contextualize my thoughts and feelings in a way that made sense. With gender, I ultimately asked myself what I did/didn't want, and eventually, the label fell into place.

 

Would experimenting with pronouns or gender expression help you? Would using the agender label as a lens help you contextualize your past/present thoughts and feelings? 

[butterflydreams]

I'm pretty much with Mezzo in that I basically decided that transition would improve my quality of life (and it has...dramatically). Like him, I couldn't really tell you what it "feels like" to be a woman. I just am.

 

Remember though that cultural stereotypes aren't really gender. Otherwise they wouldn't be called cultural stereotypes. There are all kinds of different guys out there (and different women too). Get enough of them together and you'll have a pretty wide spectrum of people. So there's nothing wrong with feeling like you don't get on with guys, or think like they do. Though, if it's really persistent, and negatively affecting your quality of life, it might be worth looking into. I know for me, it wasn't that I couldn't get on with other guys, I actually could with many guys, but almost universally, they didn't accept me.

 

So ultimately, I think I agree with Mezzo's suggestion to experiment with stuff. That's kind of what I usually tell people too. It won't hurt anything. Go ahead and try calling yourself agender and see where it leads you. I did (god, it seems like so long ago now) at one time. Ultimately, as long as you're moving, you're doing fine. And we'll always be here to help you, encourage you and offer suggestions  good luck!

[nerdperson777]

@Hadley167 I still remember the agender with a feminine processor

 

I think I'm just some weird clump of gender because my expression is masculine, my actions can be both masculine and feminine so I couldn't really say that I'm one way or the other.  Maybe I am actually fluid.  Or anxiety and depression won't let me decide.

[The Mechanic]

On 12/4/2016 at 9:13 AM, Mezzo Forte said:

All the power to the people who can figure out the mental side of nonbinary identity. Even though I know I'm a man, I couldn't really tell you what it feels like to be one. (I'm not exactly a shining example of machismo. If anything, my personality is probably a touch androgynous.) Honestly, after 4+ years of questioning, I gave up on trying to figure out the mental aspect of gender and I ultimately simplified my concept of gender to whether or not transition would improve my quality of life. 

 

Still, I can relate to that issue of not fully belonging with people who fit the extremes of gender expectations. (Let's just say that my experiences with business school gave me more than enough motivation to keep surrounding myself with musicians and artists.) I felt especially alienated around women who fit extreme feminine expectations though.

 

Obviously, I'm not agender, so I wouldn't know how to ID what you're experiencing even if I could peer directly into your head. I can try to give some general advice about questioning though. For my romantic orientation, trying on labels really helped, because the aromantic label allowed me to contextualize my thoughts and feelings in a way that made sense. With gender, I ultimately asked myself what I did/didn't want, and eventually, the label fell into place.

 

Would experimenting with pronouns or gender expression help you? Would using the agender label as a lens help you contextualize your past/present thoughts and feelings? 

Yeah, I guess part of it is, I mostly have no desire to align myself completely with either gender, but I still care about people from both equally.  I guess because of my intelligence, personality, and asexuality I kinda feel inhuman.  I guess that's why I like the idea of being agender; someone not bound by society's expectations or assumptions so they can befriend care for others of any gender without the implications of romance or sexual desire.

 

15 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

I'm pretty much with Mezzo in that I basically decided that transition would improve my quality of life (and it has...dramatically). Like him, I couldn't really tell you what it "feels like" to be a woman. I just am.

 

Remember though that cultural stereotypes aren't really gender. Otherwise they wouldn't be called cultural stereotypes. There are all kinds of different guys out there (and different women too). Get enough of them together and you'll have a pretty wide spectrum of people. So there's nothing wrong with feeling like you don't get on with guys, or think like they do. Though, if it's really persistent, and negatively affecting your quality of life, it might be worth looking into. I know for me, it wasn't that I couldn't get on with other guys, I actually could with many guys, but almost universally, they didn't accept me.

 

So ultimately, I think I agree with Mezzo's suggestion to experiment with stuff. That's kind of what I usually tell people too. It won't hurt anything. Go ahead and try calling yourself agender and see where it leads you. I did (god, it seems like so long ago now) at one time. Ultimately, as long as you're moving, you're doing fine. And we'll always be here to help you, encourage you and offer suggestions  good luck!

Thanks for the support!  Yeah I think that's mostly it, I guess it depends on how you define "gender" but I really don't "feel" like a guy or a girl and I can get along just fine with either gender (personally I get along better with girls though, they're generally much nicer).  I'm just going to experiment with different labels and see which I feel fit me.

[nerdperson777]

Well, I don't think you have to not have a gender to think that you're not bound by society's expectations.  I care about people, from a logical standpoint.  And I feel inhuman for the same reasons you have said.  I grew up in a purely logic minded family (I didn't say they were completely logical).  My intelligence is above average for my age.  My logic minded family made it so that we were unfeeling robots, or at least very emotionally suppressed.  I know not of what it's like to desire anything and just do as I'm told.  My parents' idea of love was spending money on my education and providing me with housing, food, clothes, everything practical.  I don't have a clue of my parents' hobbies and passions as they don't seem to exhibit that they have any.  They consider my gift to them is just doing well in class.  I was not allowed to stand out or be unique.  I talk in a monotone voice.  And to top off the inhuman-ness, my mom often told me that I was worth even less than the dirt on the ground.  After many years of hearing these insults, I've believed it.  I don't consider myself human.  I don't have "real" desires.  I just focus on what I should do rather than what I want to do.

 

Gender-wise, not being binary just tells me to screw the roles because I can't seem to fully align myself to the male or female ones.  Plus when I'm not out to any relatives outside my immediate family, so it's not even something in my control.  I was at home lounging around with my legs spread on the couch but when my uncle's family arrived, I knew I had to close up before they saw me.  It could be ASD but I don't even know what the gender roles are sometimes.  I'm just whatever, I'm going to do whatever makes sense to me, whether it be sitting in a feminine way or manspreading all over the couch.  Due to not being attracted to people in any sense for the most part, I see the way you say about just being friends with people without that romantic or sexual desire.  But something about female or femme people tends to make me more comfortable.

[The Mechanic]

52 minutes ago, nerdperson777 said:

Well, I don't think you have to not have a gender to think that you're not bound by society's expectations.  I care about people, from a logical standpoint.  And I feel inhuman for the same reasons you have said.  I grew up in a purely logic minded family (I didn't say they were completely logical).  My intelligence is above average for my age.  My logic minded family made it so that we were unfeeling robots, or at least very emotionally suppressed.  I know not of what it's like to desire anything and just do as I'm told.  My parents' idea of love was spending money on my education and providing me with housing, food, clothes, everything practical.  I don't have a clue of my parents' hobbies and passions as they don't seem to exhibit that they have any.  They consider my gift to them is just doing well in class.  I was not allowed to stand out or be unique.  I talk in a monotone voice.  And to top off the inhuman-ness, my mom often told me that I was worth even less than the dirt on the ground.  After many years of hearing these insults, I've believed it.  I don't consider myself human.  I don't have "real" desires.  I just focus on what I should do rather than what I want to do.

 

Gender-wise, not being binary just tells me to screw the roles because I can't seem to fully align myself to the male or female ones.  Plus when I'm not out to any relatives outside my immediate family, so it's not even something in my control.  I was at home lounging around with my legs spread on the couch but when my uncle's family arrived, I knew I had to close up before they saw me.  It could be ASD but I don't even know what the gender roles are sometimes.  I'm just whatever, I'm going to do whatever makes sense to me, whether it be sitting in a feminine way or manspreading all over the couch.  Due to not being attracted to people in any sense for the most part, I see the way you say about just being friends with people without that romantic or sexual desire.  But something about female or femme people tends to make me more comfortable.

Interesting that you should mention that, my childhood was somewhat similar.  My parents definitely loved me, but they always had high very expectations of me.  I was homeschooled, so I never had much of a perspective of what I "should" have been capable of doing.  I always tried my hardest, mostly to avoid my mom's anger when I failed or got grades that (for me at least) weren't very good.  It wasn't until I started taking classes with a homeschool co-op that I realized my level of intelligence, comprehension skills, and common sense were vastly higher than that of my peers.  Consequently, I've never really fit nor in to the expectations and assumptions of our society anyways.

 

Interestingly enough though, I'm a high-minded intellectual with a big heart.  I mean, I was the kid that once cried over the death of a moth I'd tried to save.  I love my family and friends more than anything else in the whole world, and I'm always willing to be there for them.  The part where the aro/ace/agender/inhuman part comes in is just how I've developed as a person given my desire to care for and protect those around me.  What little sexuality and romantic inclinations I had, I gave up so they wouldn't interfere with the friendships I have with guys and girls.

[nerdperson777]

I feel like homeschooling frees people (at least in part) from the social expectations, but unfortunately, most parents don't have the dedication, time, or money to do that.  My grades came with death sentences so I overworried and now I think, for what?  There was one time my teacher postponed a test and only told us right before we were expected to take it because she didn't believe we were ready yet.  Most people think cool, I have the weekend to study for it now.  My thought was more of, I was submitted to torture last night, and I'm going to be tortured again.  I cried in class over the postponed test because the previous night I was tortured for nothing.  My mom was an absolute helicopter and she would give me help with my studies whenever possible because she believed that I needed it.  Her way of helping me study was asking me questions and hitting me when I got them wrong.  When this test was postponed, this was high school.  At 14, I was still getting help from my mom on studying.  When my life was at stake, I certainly retained the material better but I know it isn't healthy.  I knew I was above average because I got straight A's most of the time.  I stopped getting straight A's during my high school sophomore year.  It got to a point where I wasn't punished for having B's but I still feared death then.  My parents wanted me to fit in as much as possible by just getting me ahead in regular school subjects.  Ironically, in a way, I stuck out more because of the way my hair was, my personality was weird, and I dressed too plainly to be considered my own individual.

 

I didn't think I had a big heart until recently.  I was taught to just abide by what logic says.  When I looked into art, mental disorders, queer things and such, I started getting in touch with a more feeling side, instead of what my parents assumed were people's feelings.  I cared about everything, including inanimate objects.  I think I liked objects because they didn't judge me like people would.  Also my parents taught me to hoard.  With no real sense of what I like or what my parents like, I instead found gratification in making others happy.  When I go to a store, I don't think about how I should get this thing for myself.  I think, this will make a good present for my friend.  I would like to feel familial love.  I'm getting it from a friend who I see as a mother instead.  My genetic parents can never give me the familial love I'm looking for so I look elsewhere.  I care about people.  I want good things to happen to them.  But I think I see it more like a duty, as something more logical.  I've gotten some crazy notions from my upbringing and from shows that I need to take everyone's pain in order for the world to be happy.  I disconnected myself before from the more personal aspect of really knowing people.  Lately, I've been thinking about how corruption comes from forgetting your roots.  I thought my root was forgetting my humanity to become a machine like my parents wanted when it was actually the person who cared about everyone and wishing them the best of life.

[The Mechanic]

On 12/7/2016 at 2:55 AM, nerdperson777 said:

I feel like homeschooling frees people (at least in part) from the social expectations, but unfortunately, most parents don't have the dedication, time, or money to do that.  My grades came with death sentences so I overworried and now I think, for what?  There was one time my teacher postponed a test and only told us right before we were expected to take it because she didn't believe we were ready yet.  Most people think cool, I have the weekend to study for it now.  My thought was more of, I was submitted to torture last night, and I'm going to be tortured again.  I cried in class over the postponed test because the previous night I was tortured for nothing.  My mom was an absolute helicopter and she would give me help with my studies whenever possible because she believed that I needed it.  Her way of helping me study was asking me questions and hitting me when I got them wrong.  When this test was postponed, this was high school.  At 14, I was still getting help from my mom on studying.  When my life was at stake, I certainly retained the material better but I know it isn't healthy.  I knew I was above average because I got straight A's most of the time.  I stopped getting straight A's during my high school sophomore year.  It got to a point where I wasn't punished for having B's but I still feared death then.  My parents wanted me to fit in as much as possible by just getting me ahead in regular school subjects.  Ironically, in a way, I stuck out more because of the way my hair was, my personality was weird, and I dressed too plainly to be considered my own individual.

 

I didn't think I had a big heart until recently.  I was taught to just abide by what logic says.  When I looked into art, mental disorders, queer things and such, I started getting in touch with a more feeling side, instead of what my parents assumed were people's feelings.  I cared about everything, including inanimate objects.  I think I liked objects because they didn't judge me like people would.  Also my parents taught me to hoard.  With no real sense of what I like or what my parents like, I instead found gratification in making others happy.  When I go to a store, I don't think about how I should get this thing for myself.  I think, this will make a good present for my friend.  I would like to feel familial love.  I'm getting it from a friend who I see as a mother instead.  My genetic parents can never give me the familial love I'm looking for so I look elsewhere.  I care about people.  I want good things to happen to them.  But I think I see it more like a duty, as something more logical.  I've gotten some crazy notions from my upbringing and from shows that I need to take everyone's pain in order for the world to be happy.  I disconnected myself before from the more personal aspect of really knowing people.  Lately, I've been thinking about how corruption comes from forgetting your roots.  I thought my root was forgetting my humanity to become a machine like my parents wanted when it was actually the person who cared about everyone and wishing them the best of life.

That's terrible what your parents put you through.  I love my mom, but even she has admitted to having anger issues and it wasn't uncommon for me to get yelled at for getting poor grades.  I think the biggest reasons I've developed the kind of persona I have are my faith and the option presented to me in life.  People with my intelligence and knowledge are basically given the choice of whether they're going to change the world for better or worse; to help others or manipulate them.  I decided that, no matter what, I'd always be the one to keep others safe and try to make the world  a better place for them.

[nerdperson777]

Yeah, for the longest time, I put away the thought that I wanted to keep people safe and happy.  All I needed to know was whatever my parents said I should, which was academics and listening to what they said.  I think I got my generosity from my dad.  He's always going about doing nice things for people, but I think he does it for the praise, because mom gives him nothing.  I was able to deduce this by my emotionless life.  I was able to think logically clear the cause and effect that went about my family life.

 

My grades weren't actually bad was the thing.  High expectations made B's disappointments.  My lowest grades in secondary school was a C- in 8th grade English because the teacher wasn't very accommodating and a C+ in AP Biology because I wasn't that great at biology and senioritis didn't help.  I didn't actually start having failing grades until college.  It's kind of a trap of parents expecting something, and once I meet it, they just aim higher with nothing added.  It's like trying to get more miles in a car when you don't even have gas left.

 

But I believe my duty is to help others and keep them safe.  Maybe it's because I watched superhero movies and actually believed those, the perfect people who wouldn't waver their loyalty to society.  There should be no contingency to doing good.  It should be just as is, although people can really take advantage of that.