Jump to content

Coming out/ non binary


R0xanne

Recommended Posts

If you are a non binary person who has come out, can you tell me what it is like to come out to peers and friends?/give advice how to come out to peers and friends. I ideally would like to come out as gender fluid and I am wondering how people would react. I go to a large high school in California.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • You can start by telling people that gender is a social construction based on stereotypes and that it's not related to biological sex. Tell them some cultures even have more than 2 genders and some people are not 100% male/man or female/woman.
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:
  • You can start by telling people that gender is a social construction based on stereotypes and that it's not related to biological sex. Tell them some cultures even have more than 2 genders and some people are not 100% male/man or female/woman.

Ugh.. For the millionth time- GENDER IS NOT A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT!!!!

That only accounts for gender roles and gender presentation which =/= gender identity. Gender identity is how you relate to yourself and the world around you internally.,

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Chardog said:

Ugh.. For the millionth time- GENDER IS NOT A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT!!!!

That only accounts for gender roles and gender presentation which =/= gender identity. Gender identity is how you relate to yourself and the world around you internally.,

OH well, somebody invented what a man "has" to look like, for example. The truth is you can identify as whatever you want and present however you want, it's all up to your interpretation. Nature made 2 sexes, but gender is an human concept.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

OH well, somebody invented what a man "has" to look like, for example. The truth is you can identify as whatever you want and present however you want, it's all up to your interpretation. Nature made 2 sexes, but gender is an human concept.

Your still missing the point.. It's internal, not external that makes gender.. People on the male side of the spectrum relate to the world differently than people on the female side. They may share some traits that oppose their base gender- but there's a commonality of life experience that makes up gender identity..

I can still wear a dress, heels and makeup but there is no way I'm a woman.. I've never related to the world as one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Luftschlosseule

You can tell them that nothing really changes. That you haven't changed, that you're still yourself. Just the label you identify with has changed and maybe you'll be going to experiment on a few things like clothing to find out what you're most comfortable with.

But you still have the traits they like or dislike you for. You're still your point of patient, kind, creative, intelligent, pick your adjective.
Your hobbies haven't changed, yourself has not changed, you simply found a new dimension of possibility.

At least, that's how I feel. I am still Eule. If you were to write a characterization of me, it would still sound much like an old one from before my self-discovery. You would only need to make some small adjustments to your wording.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I sort of came out as agender before trans male, and I got baffled looks. I clarified with "I'm definitely not female, I just don't know what I am" which wasn't entirely true, I just needed more time to summon the courage to come out as trans. 

I don't know if there's always a need to come out, especially if you're not fussed about pronouns, for example, and the only thing that people will register is your presentation changing, e.g. clothing, I honestly don't know if it warrants the effort of coming out. I mean, do people even understand what non binary is? Even if they do, how many of them care? Your average human doesn't give a toss how people identify, they just want to live their lives in peace. I've realised that the majority of people don't care that I'm trans, it's only a small minority that are a little too interested for comfort, or show me outright hostility because of it. Oh, I guess that's what I'm trying to say - be careful. Some folks aren't afraid to let you know they think you're batshit crazy, just because you haven't looked at your genitals and gone, "huh, so that's what I am".

Link to post
Share on other sites
Random Happenstance

i think it depends on the person. i came out in basically... four ways? all to different people depending on my comfort level/our relationship. i figured i'd share all of them in case it helps you figure out what to do.

first, i came out to my mum. i waited until we were in the car, just the two of us (her driving), with over an hour journey ahead, heading home. it was the best way because we had to be in eachother's company for that time, and my tendency otherwise might be to pretend nothing had happened. it forced an interaction where we could talk more thoroughly, and where i couldn't really back down once i'd decided to do it. it basically just started with 'i'm transgender' and going on to elaborate on the non-binary thing. side note that i knew, even with the worst possible reaction from her, she'd still care about me and not do a thing to hurt me. being stuck in a car with the other person behind the wheel won't always be the safest way to come out, so judge the situation.

the second, was my friend. i sort of figured she knew, since i'd talked about gender/non-binary-ness with her before, but i guess she didn't realise completely how i felt, so i told her 'i came out to my mum as trans' and she was basically 'oh, you are?'. wasn't planned as a second coming out, but kinda was. that was easy enough though, cause it wasn't like it was outa nowhere with her, and she gets it.

the third was coming out to all my other friends, whose reactions i was less sure about. i basically wrote this facebook status and made it visible to my closest friend group. basically like 'i'm a transgender non-binary person, and would prefer 'they/them/their' pronouns. i'm coming out in a status so as to not put people on the spot, but you can send me messages about it if you want' type thing. one friend messaged me right away, saying she's glad i felt comfortable coming out to her and that was it (best respone ever received!). friend i was out to liked it, and one of my oldest friends said nothing which left me wondering if she'd seen it, and being anxious, cause she was someone i really wanted to get it, and be cool with it. later i sent her a private message asking if she'd seen it, which she had, and she said she didn't comment cause it didn't change anything 'although she doesn't agree' -sigh-. not ideal, but she's pretty okay with it now.

so, final way was through letter to two of my relatives (only one letter, since they're often at the same house). i basically laid everything out very simply, and filled almost a whole page with it. i attatched it to a print out of a recent article by (or maybe about) tyler ford, a non-binary person, to lend a bit of 'credibility' to it. they've had a harder time wrapping their heads round it, but they try a lot.

overall, i think all the methods worked really well for the individuals i came out to, and am glad i didn't try some one-size-fits-all method. the scariest one for me was the facebook status, because i wondered if i might lose at least one of my friends. it didn't happen, but there is one (a different one) who now speaks to me rarely, and idk if there's a connection. before i posted that status i'd resolved that anyone who didn't respect that didn't deserve my friendship, and i was willing to deal with that if it happened. it was hard to decide. i've since made that status visible to anyone, though idk if anyone would even see it at that point.

it has been work, being out to people. at first i was scared about correcting pronouns, not wanting to make things awkward for anyone, but with a friend's help i now do so consistantly. people are pretty good with it, and now correct themselves often, and don't have to otherwise. i've noticed that since being out to people, misgendering from those people hurts more, and makes me more dysphoric. like, despite me opening up to them they still don't see me as i am. that their language may shift (with correction) but they fundamentally haven't changed how they see me, just the words when they remember. it's hard, and it never was so much before being out. but it's also gratifying. no hiding, no anxiety, i'm pursuing (unsuccessfully, but with hope so far) medical transition, i can be me, and assert who i am. being out has been really great for me overall.

idk if any of this is helpful, but i hope you can get something useful from it :)
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, random happenstance, this was very helpful. thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just my two cents here, but sometimes you can get all worked up about coming out to someone and they don't see it as a big deal. Sometimes that's good, like random happenstance said, when they feel that you're still you and you still have all the qualities they like about you, just a different name or pronouns.

sometimes it's...less good. Not bad, but when I came out to my mum she told me that "i would work out being female eventually" and has since refused to acknowledge or talk about the subject of identity with me in the year since. So I spent all this time getting stressed about how to come out to her and in the end it didn't make a difference.

i think the important thing you can do is be open to questions, accept that there may be some time before people get your pronouns right and just, I don't know, let them know you're the same person you always were in terms of personality/interests.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Random Happenstance
On 11/28/2016 at 5:21 AM, R0xanne said:

yes, random happenstance, this was very helpful. thank you.

i'm glad it was helpful, i hope all goes well with however you decide to go forward :)

On 11/29/2016 at 10:51 AM, SleepyFox said:

Just my two cents here, but sometimes you can get all worked up about coming out to someone and they don't see it as a big deal. Sometimes that's good, like random happenstance said, when they feel that you're still you and you still have all the qualities they like about you, just a different name or pronouns.

sometimes it's...less good. Not bad, but when I came out to my mum she told me that "i would work out being female eventually" and has since refused to acknowledge or talk about the subject of identity with me in the year since. So I spent all this time getting stressed about how to come out to her and in the end it didn't make a difference.

i think the important thing you can do is be open to questions, accept that there may be some time before people get your pronouns right and just, I don't know, let them know you're the same person you always were in terms of personality/interests.

that's interesting you mention that, i actually had a similar experience with my mum at first - i wonder if it's relatively common? two years before i came out properly, i tried coming out to my mum. i was a bit less confident in how i felt, and really needed some validation. she accepted what i said to an extent, but it made her sad and she wouldn't talk about it, she felt like she'd done something wrong to make me 'not want to be a woman'. and because it made her sad, and that she made me feel more doubtful, i felt uncomfortable talking about it. so we didn't - until i came out again, properly, about 2 years later.

that's actually the reason attempt no. 2 involved a confined space and fair amount of time to make sure it all sunk in and was said, so it couldn't just drift off. but i think the biggest thing for me was having confidence in how i feel, and knowing that i'm the only one who knows me so noone else's doubts matter. it wasn't easy to convince her when i was still  questioning, doubting, and trying to rationalise everything to myself, struggling for validation and absorbing other people's opinions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm still in the process of coming out. How I go about it depends very much on the person. I came out on facebook just to get it out of the way with, explained what nonbinary meant, explained my pronouns, kept it simple. A lot of my friends are part of the LGBTQ community so it's not really an issue with them, most of my new friends asked my pronouns when we met (which was wonderful!)

 

With family, because the actual label is something I'm not all that bothered about, I've been slowly explaining that I would prefer they/them pronouns and making a point of showing them letters/my driving lisence now having the title 'Mx' instead of Mr/Ms. I am essentially being out and open about it without making a point of sitting them down one by one and coming out officially. My family are pretty open minded though and I had been talking about transgender issues for well over a year before I started explaining my pronouns. They know I wear a binder. My grandmother and my cousins know I'm weighing up the pros and cons of T. Pretty much everyone knows I'd like top surgery. But I think that because I haven't made a big deal out of being nonbinary, it's not a big deal to them and it's been easier for them to accept that it's just another part of who I am. My little sister had to write a mini biography about me for school and she wrote a note at the top saying 'they/them are the correct pronouns, I'm not making a gramatical mistake.' There are some people I maybe need to explain things more clearly too, like my parents, because being refered to as their daughter does bother me. But we'll get there. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 27/11/2016 at 3:44 AM, Chardog said:

Your still missing the point.. It's internal, not external that makes gender.. People on the male side of the spectrum relate to the world differently than people on the female side. They may share some traits that oppose their base gender- but there's a commonality of life experience that makes up gender identity..

I can still wear a dress, heels and makeup but there is no way I'm a woman.. I've never related to the world as one.

 

On 27/11/2016 at 1:53 AM, Chardog said:

Ugh.. For the millionth time- GENDER IS NOT A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT!!!!

That only accounts for gender roles and gender presentation which =/= gender identity. Gender identity is how you relate to yourself and the world around you internally.,

 

Sorry... got the quotes in the wrong order...

 

I'm genuinly trying to wrap my head around this, so please bear with me. I'm not trying to create an argument, just need some clarification/feedback thinking things through. I'm somewhere in the middle between male and female in my interests, the way I act (apparently), etc.... Though I don't find I can identify as female, I find male problematic as well. Not sure how I feel of how I see the world - male or female - as it's difficult for me to distinguish between the two sometimes.

 

The quotes above, especially the 1:53 one, made me feel confused... Gender is not a social construct... Although I feel you are right that it's more about how you feel internally (is that what you mean with 'how you relate to yourself'? I struggle with this. It feels to me that gender identity (as an aspect of gender) is exactly how you feel about yourself but I struggle to feel that (all of gender) is not a social construct, or in other words nothing about gender is a social construct. I feel that aspects of gender (other than gender identity - you named two - gender roles and gender presentation) are socially constructed and are a subset/part of gender. So, my feeling is that gender is not a social construct, but aspects of gender are...

 

While doing some research trying to get some clarity and further food for thought I came across this: http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2016/05/17/sorry-liberals-but-gender-is-not-a-social-construct-n2164148 ( I almost clicked away immediately when I read the first sentence... makes me go 'black and white thinking... ugh... no. I don't support the pathetic and simplistic Liberal/Democrat - republican dichotomy in the US either... it's devisive, an abstract of reality and not helpful... and there are all sorts of things wrong with the arguments in the 'article' anyway rant about the article over).

Surely you don't intend it in this way - men relate to the world differently to women as opposed to people with mainly masculine 'traits' (men or women) see the world differently to people with mainly feminine 'traits' (male or female)... or are your thoughts similar? (not trying to have a go or pigeon hole you or something... genuinly trying to work things out how others feel this works to help me get some clarity about my own situation)

 

I think that generally, but especially in the 'article' in the link, 'male' and 'female' are often confused or interchanged with femininity and masculinity. It's not because someone is physically a woman/man, that they are all woman/man but that people invariably are a mix of the feminine and masculine with masculine generally found to greater extent in men and femininity to greater extent in women. We as bigender/non-binary people are just more of a mix than most other people... I have a feeling that society or some parts of society (which in the article no doubt would be described as republican/conservative) expect people to ban/destroy/deny their side that doesn't fit in and anything else is ill mental health... Do others feel the same? Any thoughts? The quotes above have just caused a lot of confusing about myself whereas before there was relative certainty.

 

Anyway, linked to the OPs question about this. Because of the people in the article of which there are many, and because of all the black and white thinking which in my experience is rife in society, I think I will never come out... I know some really well meaning people who are always (subconsciously) very keen to push me into the little box where they feel I belong and they would ridicule someone who doesn't. While talking about hobbies at work today I mentioned a gender a-typical interest and I got strange looks from at least one person... so not going there too often... while still trying to be my genuine self. And no... I don't think I have a mental illness and no one will ever make me believe I do! :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The majority of my friend group is transgender and understanding, so coming out to them was a breeze. I've yet to deal with [known and/or potentially] unaccepting relatives.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Acing It said:

 

 

Sorry... got the quotes in the wrong order...

 

I'm genuinly trying to wrap my head around this, so please bear with me. I'm not trying to create an argument, just need some clarification/feedback thinking things through. I'm somewhere in the middle between male and female in my interests, the way I act (apparently), etc.... Though I don't find I can identify as female, I find male problematic as well. Not sure how I feel of how I see the world - male or female - as it's difficult for me to distinguish between the two sometimes.

 

The quotes above, especially the 1:53 one, made me feel confused... Gender is not a social construct... Although I feel you are right that it's more about how you feel internally (is that what you mean with 'how you relate to yourself'? I struggle with this. It feels to me that gender identity (as an aspect of gender) is exactly how you feel about yourself but I struggle to feel that (all of gender) is not a social construct, or in other words nothing about gender is a social construct. I feel that aspects of gender (other than gender identity - you named two - gender roles and gender presentation) are socially constructed and are a subset/part of gender. So, my feeling is that gender is not a social construct, but aspects of gender are...

 

While doing some research trying to get some clarity and further food for thought I came across this: http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2016/05/17/sorry-liberals-but-gender-is-not-a-social-construct-n2164148 ( I almost clicked away immediately when I read the first sentence... makes me go 'black and white thinking... ugh... no. I don't support the pathetic and simplistic Liberal/Democrat - republican dichotomy in the US either... it's devisive, an abstract of reality and not helpful... and there are all sorts of things wrong with the arguments in the 'article' anyway rant about the article over).

Surely you don't intend it in this way - men relate to the world differently to women as opposed to people with mainly masculine 'traits' (men or women) see the world differently to people with mainly feminine 'traits' (male or female)... or are your thoughts similar? (not trying to have a go or pigeon hole you or something... genuinly trying to work things out how others feel this works to help me get some clarity about my own situation)

 

I think that generally, but especially in the 'article' in the link, 'male' and 'female' are often confused or interchanged with femininity and masculinity. It's not because someone is physically a woman/man, that they are all woman/man but that people invariably are a mix of the feminine and masculine with masculine generally found to greater extent in men and femininity to greater extent in women. We as bigender/non-binary people are just more of a mix than most other people... I have a feeling that society or some parts of society (which in the article no doubt would be described as republican/conservative) expect people to ban/destroy/deny their side that doesn't fit in and anything else is ill mental health... Do others feel the same? Any thoughts? The quotes above have just caused a lot of confusing about myself whereas before there was relative certainty.

 

Anyway, linked to the OPs question about this. Because of the people in the article of which there are many, and because of all the black and white thinking which in my experience is rife in society, I think I will never come out... I know some really well meaning people who are always (subconsciously) very keen to push me into the little box where they feel I belong and they would ridicule someone who doesn't. While talking about hobbies at work today I mentioned a gender a-typical interest and I got strange looks from at least one person... so not going there too often... while still trying to be my genuine self. And no... I don't think I have a mental illness and no one will ever make me believe I do! :-)

 

Yes gender presentation and roles are social constructs and yes they are a part of gender.. But how one dresses and what stereotypical behavior they exhibit have NOTHING to do with what is going on in their head and how they process things..

 

Using myself as an example- I am AFAB. While I grew up tomboyish, I had no clue I was not a girl. I tried to follow society's version of the gender script and found myself failing over and over again. This was not a conscious rebellion against "being female"- I couldn't socialize like other women, see the world like other women, etc. The programming wasn't there- I saw circles where they saw squares and it was hella confusing. 

 

This is what I mean by gender is not a social construct. If it was, it would be entirely based on what was seen on the outside- your presentation and actions. It would also be able to be manipulated by external influences. Instead, I can walk around looking like a very attractive woman in a dress and heels and then I open my mouth and.. something is wrong. I relate to the world in a way that 30+ of trying to "follow the script" could change. If it was a social construct, I could have brainwashed myself into conformation to being female after that many years of practice. Instead my brain is programmed in a way that can't be overridden by external forces or conscious effort.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Chardog said:

 

Yes gender presentation and roles are social constructs and yes they are a part of gender.. But how one dresses and what stereotypical behavior they exhibit have NOTHING to do with what is going on in their head and how they process things..

 

Using myself as an example- I am AFAB. While I grew up tomboyish, I had no clue I was not a girl. I tried to follow society's version of the gender script and found myself failing over and over again. This was not a conscious rebellion against "being female"- I couldn't socialize like other women, see the world like other women, etc. The programming wasn't there- I saw circles where they saw squares and it was hella confusing. 

 

This is what I mean by gender is not a social construct. If it was, it would be entirely based on what was seen on the outside- your presentation and actions. It would also be able to be manipulated by external influences. Instead, I can walk around looking like a very attractive woman in a dress and heels and then I open my mouth and.. something is wrong. I relate to the world in a way that 30+ of trying to "follow the script" could change. If it was a social construct, I could have brainwashed myself into conformation to being female after that many years of practice. Instead my brain is programmed in a way that can't be overridden by external forces or conscious effort.

 

On 27/11/2016 at 1:53 AM, Chardog said:

 

Still not getting the hang of 'quoting' on here...

 

Yes, thank you, that makes complete sense, and I fully agree. Your message yesterday got me in some existential spin and the article I found didn't really help at all with that. Your second paragraph especially resonates with me, even though I feel masculine and feminine, most of the time in more or less equal measure... However I would present, there are things that feel at odds and they are innate, not put upon me by society or culture. Yesterday for instance I was talking to a gay female colleague who presents fairly masculine and while I was talking to her I noticed how feminine I sounded compared to her (I'm AMAB) She sounded masculine and took a masculine pose... it was funny in a way, the 'role reversal'. Adding to that, I'm a sociologist so how I felt yesterday got me in some sort of intellectual spin as well... Social constructivism has some interesting points to make but not here.

 

I work in what could be described as a female dominated profession (which says a lot in itself) and in general, I'm really happy there and I'm blessed with where I work in the main, but coming out would scare me because of the people with ideas similar to the ones in the article who cherry pick and manipulate certain scientific and pseudo scientific ideas because they are scared to find things that don't fit in with their very much fixed, deterministic world view. I think that's where the dictat that you should be PC has failed in the sense that a lot of people may present themselves as accepting and open minded have very different ideas which they felt they couldn't express because of the expectation of having to be politically correct.

 

My parents are not like that but at the same time they wouldn't understand at all. They were born in a different era and have stubbornly stuck to the view they developed when they were in their teens, in spite of the plethora of evidence and logic against supporting how they see the world as it is now. Whilst I respect them a lot I recognise my dad especially could have had a very different life if he would not have felt he would have had to comply with a form of masculinity that was forced upon him by society. He's a 'real' man (in a good way fortunately) who in essence could be described as emotionally stunted... I wouldn't be able to talk to him about anything to do with feelings and when I tried all he can do is make fun of those feelings because he feels so uncomfortable he can't cope. My mum gets really upset when you tell her that women should be allowed to go to work. She feels working women and the men coming into contact with them are the source of a lot of the divorce cases out there (I know...) They are wonderful people in many ways and my short description doesn't do them justice at all, but I'm not sure how they would respond if I told them about how I feel...

 

It's great to hear the stories on here though... and thank you Chardog for sticking with me and explaining.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Acing It said:

 

Still not getting the hang of 'quoting' on here...

 

Yes, thank you, that makes complete sense, and I fully agree. Your message yesterday got me in some existential spin and the article I found didn't really help at all with that. Your second paragraph especially resonates with me, even though I feel masculine and feminine, most of the time in more or less equal measure... However I would present, there are things that feel at odds and they are innate, not put upon me by society or culture. Yesterday for instance I was talking to a gay female colleague who presents fairly masculine and while I was talking to her I noticed how feminine I sounded compared to her (I'm AMAB) She sounded masculine and took a masculine pose... it was funny in a way, the 'role reversal'. Adding to that, I'm a sociologist so how I felt yesterday got me in some sort of intellectual spin as well... Social constructivism has some interesting points to make but not here.

 

I work in what could be described as a female dominated profession (which says a lot in itself) and in general, I'm really happy there and I'm blessed with where I work in the main, but coming out would scare me because of the people with ideas similar to the ones in the article who cherry pick and manipulate certain scientific and pseudo scientific ideas because they are scared to find things that don't fit in with their very much fixed, deterministic world view. I think that's where the dictat that you should be PC has failed in the sense that a lot of people may present themselves as accepting and open minded have very different ideas which they felt they couldn't express because of the expectation of having to be politically correct.

 

My parents are not like that but at the same time they wouldn't understand at all. They were born in a different era and have stubbornly stuck to the view they developed when they were in their teens, in spite of the plethora of evidence and logic against supporting how they see the world as it is now. Whilst I respect them a lot I recognise my dad especially could have had a very different life if he would not have felt he would have had to comply with a form of masculinity that was forced upon him by society. He's a 'real' man (in a good way fortunately) who in essence could be described as emotionally stunted... I wouldn't be able to talk to him about anything to do with feelings and when I tried all he can do is make fun of those feelings because he feels so uncomfortable he can't cope. My mum gets really upset when you tell her that women should be allowed to go to work. She feels working women and the men coming into contact with them are the source of a lot of the divorce cases out there (I know...) They are wonderful people in many ways and my short description doesn't do them justice at all, but I'm not sure how they would respond if I told them about how I feel...

 

It's great to hear the stories on here though... and thank you Chardog for sticking with me and explaining.

 

Don't worry about quoting... I'm on mobile most of the time and the new format is better but still more difficult in not on my laptop..

 

The bottom line about gender not being a social construct is- even if you throw your finger up at all the rules you still can't account for or nullify internal feelings that still exist.. 

 

The roles thing when interacting with other people.. I'm going to challenge that that is a societal thing- it's been defined as x by society but you don't fall into those actions because society dictates it, you do it because you default to that role based on internal programming. In similarity to your work interaction- best friend is a gay male (somewhat feminine). Relationship is queerplatonicish and I tend to take on the more "masculine" (per se) role in the relationship. We'll be sitting on the couch and I can put my head on his shoulder and it's okay.. I prefer he puts his head on my shoulder though because it just feels "right". The other way around doesn't feel "wrong", but it doesn't click the same with my internal programming..

 

Glad to stick with you in explaining.. Unless someone is directly attacking me and actively trying to invalidate my life experience, I like to share.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...