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butterflydreams

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butterflydreams

This may be surprising to hear, considering my standing in this community, but it's true, and I need to say it.

There are times (far more than I'd like) where I feel like being who I am, being what I am, transitioning, all of it, is morally wrong. It's against god/nature/whatever.

I find myself agreeing (in some tiny, but persistent and strange way) with attitudes about everything not straight/cis being bad and immoral. And then I hate myself for being what I am. "You can't have children, Hadley, you're basically worthless. And now you can't even raise your own kids to be moral and righteous people."

I see people highlighting some (to be perfectly honest) very disturbing and sick things in the LGBT world, and I want to be nowhere near any of it. The rational part of me understands not everybody is like that, and there are sick and disturbing people everywhere. But there's something hard about seeing some trans woman with this dead look in her eyes from god only knows all she's done. It's so hard. Am I going to have that dead look in my eyes? I mean, she can do whatever she wants, but I have to be honest: the highly sexually charged nature of LGBT stuff makes me upset to be a part of it.

I'm probably not articulating my feelings on this very well. I'm not saying what any of these people are doing is objectively wrong, it's just extremely personally distasteful to me.

Or I could just be completely emotionally exhausted. -_-

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Phantasmal Fingers

I see people highlighting some (to be perfectly honest) very disturbing and sick things in the LGBT world, and I want to be nowhere near any of it [...] the highly sexually charged nature of LGBT stuff makes me upset to be a part of it.

This is one of the big problems with seeing asexuals as part of LGBT, isn't it? LGBT is mainly about the rights of consenting like-minded sexuals (many of whom are either highly sexed, predatory or promiscuous) to do what they want with each other. But why should anyone asexual who identifies as part of this movement approve - in a moral sense - of everything that everyone else in it does? Even if those other people are within their legal rights to do whatever it is they're doing? :blink:

I would have thought that at some point or other some people within LGBT are going to start questioning whether such an umbrella organisation can really represent everyone it claims to in this respect... :huh:

I'm not a part of LGBT myself so I'm not directly involved in this. But it seems to me that trying to 'embrace' (or even perhaps condone?) everything that goes on in the name of LGBT would be too much for any asexual.

Maybe you're just more honest and upfront about this than others? :o

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butterflydreams

I'm not saying this in an elitist way. There seems to me to be a lot of emphasis on sexual hedonism in LGBT stuff. Now there's nothing wrong with that, it's just totally alien to me personally. I find it hard to parse just transgenderism out of that, and so I feel like in order to stick to my belief system, I shouldn't be transitioning.

Now it could be argued that I shouldn't subject myself to the places where I see these examples portrayed in such a negative light. But that's no good. I already know they're there.

The one that kills me is seeing certain trans women (or they could be cross dressers, I don't know) who, if I'm totally honest, just look like guys in horrible, gaudy makeup, and clothes few if any women would wear. I think, that's what I am? :(

It's hard.

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Autumn Sunrise

I'm probably not articulating my feelings on this very well. I'm not saying what any of these people are doing is objectively wrong, it's just extremely personally distasteful to me.

Or I could just be completely emotionally exhausted. -_-

I think you're probably right, Hadley. Anyone who has coped with what you've been through, essentially on your own, would be exhausted - emotionally and physically. And it's been all the more difficult just because you've had to do it on your own. But don't ever doubt that anyone, cis or trans, man or woman, can be a good and worthwhile person - and that's exactly how you seem to me. You're honest, courageous, hard-working and caring - none of that has changed through your transition. I sense that you're lonely, and that's not a easy problem to solve, although I know you've made efforts to meet and connect with people. Maybe you just need a bit more time. And if you honestly long to raise and love a child, you may be able to adopt one when you feel ready, but your personal worth in the world doesn't depend on it.

You are, quite simply, an awesome woman and an inspiration to others!

The one that kills me is seeing certain trans women (or they could be cross dressers, I don't know) who, if I'm totally honest, just look like guys in horrible, gaudy makeup, and clothes few if any women would wear. I think, that's what I am? :(

It's hard.

No - believe me - that's not who you are. I understand a little of what you feel here, but the Hadley I see in this forum is nothing like that!

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I kind of feel something like this too sometimes.. I don't really have religious beliefs or quite think that it's "immoral" to transition but sometimes I feel bad that I'm like you said going against nature like this and I wonder if my mom might be right when she says I want to "mutilate" myself as much as those words hurt.

But the thing is I figured that I'm going to die at some point and I'd rather feel better about myself, so there's no point in living as something I don't want just because people tell me I'm "supposed to" because of something that I just had the bad luck to be born with.. And I understand feeling like you're sort of "less than" because you lack certain things or are different but just remember that there are so many others like you and there are also so many cis women who can't have children and who have masculine features even beards, but they all can still be great moral people and great women. And how could all those people in the world be wrong and worthless?

I don't want to insult your beliefs or anything like that but I think it's really frustrating and unfair to have these little sets of rules for things in life because it's so easy to end up seeing things in black and white if that makes sense? Like of course there are some things that are clearly wrong to do like harming people but I think that something that makes you happier and makes you feel better about yourself without being harmful can only be good. And if it doesn't fit into the rules of some system that is mostly made to control people anyway then it was the rules that were wrong.

This is something that I think happens with the matter of sex a lot too. Sex is made out to he this dirty thing that's "wrong" for some reason but if it's safe and consensual how is it wrong? It's completely natural and most people enjoy it so why not? The social rules and in some cases even laws that say some sex is right and some is wrong are just there because certain people made them for certain reasons, it doesn't mean that it's wrong in a natural and universal sense.

I get what you mean about the LGBT community being so centered around sex sometimes but that's just kinda because that's the issue it fights against, that the rest of the world seems to be so convinced that the sex they have is wrong, so everything sort of ends up being about sex. But if you think about it almost everything in the cis/straight world is about sex too, it's just that you see all the pther things more because that sex is seen as the "normal" one.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying, I know you don't mean to say these things are objectively wrong but I'm just sharing some thoughts on how I guess certain things can affect our personal perception of what's right and wrong when in fact if it was correct that some of the things people think are wrong are actually wrong then..practically everyone ever would be wrong. So then does it even matter? Why make ourselves miserable instead of looking at the bigger picture and doing what feels right to us while not being harmful or mean to each other.

(And by that of course I'm not saying you'd be mean, just throwing it in there because something that makes someone happy might be harming others and that I definitely think is wrong)

But yeah, I honestly think that all those sexual things that you find distasteful about the LGBT world you could also totally find in the cis/straight world, it's just that there's so much taboo and stuff about being different that it gets put in an even worse light, but really there have been people who are different since always.

And also, I've seen you in your videos and you're definitely not like those transwomen or possible crossdressers you described, you're just a girl who happened to be born different than the majority. But there's a lot more like you and there has been for a long time in periods when these things were never discussed so wouldn't that point to it being a natural occurance?

I hope that helps a bit and sorry if any of that sounded insentitive in anyway, I do get what you're saying and how it feels to just feel "wrong" and like you'll never be right and complete like everyone else around has always been. We just have a different experience in life but try to keep in mine that just because it's in the minority it doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong or broken, it's just the society we live in that is more than a little f*cked up in how it treats people who are different.

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butterflydreams

Yeah, definitely emotional exhaustion, Autumn Sunrise. Another confession? I had tears in my eyes writing the post, and reading these responses. The child thing is really tough. Like really tough. I'd certainly prefer to have a partner before even considering that, and the fact that that itself is seemingly so impossible just makes the hurt worse.

My parents would love to say they raised me in a religion-free environment, but that's 100% incorrect. My siblings might have been too young to remember, but I wasn't. I remember going to sunday school. I remember going to vacation bible school in the summers. I remember reading this book of "child's garden of bible stores" like a bedtime book. It was all painted to me as the highest right.

And being at ground zero in the gay marriage debate in 2004, I remember my mom telling me how bad it was to flaunt this "wrong" sexuality so publicly. And that some people were just doing it for attention. I have to be completely honest, sometimes I see people and I can't tell if they're really ____ or just attention seeking. I remember hating the gay-straight alliance club for their "day of silence" to I think promote awareness of homophobic bullying, and just being closeted. I hated them because I saw it as using being gay to get this attention and sympathy. I was bullied a lot as a kid, and eventually, I got really quiet. No one ever stood up for me. I had to learn how to physically fight :( No one was ever going to have my back.

Maybe I've seen so much anti-gay propaganda it's gone to my head. I remember watching this documentary called "The Gift". Basically about gay men who were intentionally trying to get HIV.

Liebelit, I totally agree with what you're saying. All these things I've said, I understand it's probably just as much the case in heterosexual cis populations as well. I just fear people are always going to look at me as some kind of deviant. I'm afraid I'll always see myself that way.

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I agree, and totally get this too sometimes. With all the nonsense we're subjected to, it's nigh impossible not to involuntarily internalize those messages.

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butterflydreams

Is there anything I can do? :unsure:

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Calligraphette_Coe

This may be surprising to hear, considering my standing in this community, but it's true, and I need to say it.

There are times (far more than I'd like) where I feel like being who I am, being what I am, transitioning, all of it, is morally wrong. It's against god/nature/whatever.

If that were true, HRT wouldn't work.

As for being morally wrong, history is rife with examples of people killing other people in the name of moral purity.

Consider: you'd be who you are whether you transition or not. You'd always know. I think it was one of the Vulcan characters from Star Trek who answered someone having emotional difficulties, thusly:

"I have troubling thoughts."

Vulcan character: "That is most unfortunate, as your thoughts are your constant companions."

You found this community, we didn't find you. We don't recruit, much as some people who spout the moral crap want to believe. And you know? Almost from the first, when you started to post here, I thought to myself, "She is going transition." And I still think you'll have a better time of it than you figure you will.

But all your dreams about the best possible world coming true? Sorry, life is what happens while you have other plans. I sure as hell didn't plan on having my first CVA when I was about your age. It was exactly zero fun learning to walk again. It's been pure hell dealing with dysphoria and not being able to transition. And some people in the community have said very crappy things about my choices, essentially passing the same moral pronouncements they so hate from conservatives. In my weaker, vulnerable moments I take them to heart. I have a good cry, then I get on with the messy business of living with an illness in America, working a job surrounded by conservatives who are angry as crap about everything, and who do crappy things to their children, sometimes turning them in to Gears like themselves.

There are a million ways happiness can take one's existence south. and transgenderism isn't always one of them. It's brought out the best in some people.

Look at them, not at all the 'sick' stuff. And even when you can't avert your gaze from those that cause you distress, remember: the sun shines on them, too.

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The only help I can offer is this: I truly, deeply believe that your nature is as a woman. If God exists, then he made you a woman. When transphobes say that God doesn't make mistakes, the first thought that goes through my head is "no, He doesn't, but we as humans do." The doctor that proclaimed your gender when you were born made a mistake, but that's ok because he or she was just human. They were doing their best, but got it wrong by mistake. But God knew what He was doing, and He made you who you are, every bit of it. Including you being a woman. It's your nature, it's what God obviously intended.

God made you a complex, full, beautiful human being. It would be a disservice to His work to cut off pieces of that, to ignore or disallow parts of who you are. Why would He make you a woman if He wanted you to repress that your whole life? No, it's much more likely that He sent you on a journey, tailored for you. We may not know why everything happens as it does. But that doesn't mean we aren't beautiful and complex. Complexity can't just include happy-go-lucky bits, because then it wouldn't be complex.

The fact that you have to enlist the help of modern medicine to get your body to be you is no more immoral than a person in a wheelchair needing to enlist the help of modern technology in order to transport themselves places, or someone with severe ADHD needing to enlist medical help in focusing in their daily lives. We all rely on modern medicine and technology more than we think in order to be who we are. That is not immoral in any way. It's admirable that we can use modern knowledge to make people's lives so much better, and it's beautiful that we are all individuals with our own set of difficulties and strengths. Why would we hold that back? Your body was born in a less than ideal configuration; all you're doing is working towards fixing it.

I know that saying those things doesn't magically make it go away. But I genuinely believe them, and if there exists a God, then I believe that's how He'd see things too. I say them with the sincere hope that it helps <3

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butterflydreams

Consider: you'd be who you are whether you transition or not. You'd always know.

I know. I was thinking about this on my way home today. It occurred to me that as tough as things are right now, they'd probably be unthinkably worse if I hadn't already started transition. And that maybe it wasn't transition that's dragging me down right now. Maybe transition is the only thing keeping me afloat. Because I would always know. Sometimes I feel stupid for jumping into transition so quickly, but I've never pulled the trigger on anything so fast in my whole life. I always waffle. Not on this. I had the means, I had the chance, I took it.

For all I know it could be the only thing saving me right now. I remember when there was a big shift in things at work, I thought, if this had happened a year ago, before I started transition, I would've got up, walked to my car, drove off and...

You found this community, we didn't find you. We don't recruit, much as some people who spout the moral crap want to believe. And you know? Almost from the first, when you started to post here, I thought to myself, "She is going transition." And I still think you'll have a better time of it than you figure you will.

It makes me so happy to hear this. I do worry about that, because it's what my mom would say. "Oh it's all this brainwashing, bandwagon, recruiting." And sometimes I wonder about that myself, but gas-lighting aside, I know in my heart I showed up here myself. I walked this path myself. Nobody ever pushed me.

Look at them, not at all the 'sick' stuff. And even when you can't avert your gaze from those that cause you distress, remember: the sun shines on them, too.

I know. It's not their fault at all. Any distress I feel isn't their fault.

The only help I can offer is this: I truly, deeply believe that your nature is as a woman. If God exists, then he made you a woman. When transphobes say that God doesn't make mistakes, the first thought that goes through my head is "no, He doesn't, but we as humans do." The doctor that proclaimed your gender when you were born made a mistake, but that's ok because he or she was just human. They were doing their best, but got it wrong by mistake. But God knew what He was doing, and He made you who you are, every bit of it. Including you being a woman. It's your nature, it's what God obviously intended.

Thank you so much for this, Heart. I know I've said myself that my long since passed away grandmother, despite being pretty Catholic, would've still loved me 100% exactly for the reasons you state. She would've considered it a blessing that I was delivered to the world in the way that I was. I 100% believe that. She loved me so much. I think I saw something recently where someone said that their parents ordered a girl, and god delivered on that, but things got criss-crossed in the translation to reality. I'd like to see it like that.

I guess it is a lot of transphobia and it got to me.

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Calligraphette_Coe

Look at them, not at all the 'sick' stuff. And even when you can't avert your gaze from those that cause you distress, remember: the sun shines on them, too.

I know. It's not their fault at all. Any distress I feel isn't their fault.

That's right, it isn't. And you can do damage you don't mean to do if you let this chain of thought and feelings go too far and own you. I've seen it a million times. This is how it starts. Not to be corny about it, but there is SO much truth in the fictional character Yoda telling Luke Skywalker about a form of brainwashing that happens almost before you can say "Consent....."

“Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.”

One famous post-op woman finally got called on her attitudes towards people who challenged her. I think you know exactly about whom I'm talking. Well, I knew her before she started down the path. She didn't start out as an elitist, but became the poster child for them and finally went too, too far. Her and others invented hurtful words like 'Brick' and 'Truck' to call people who didn't fit the ideal.

To quote Yoda again:

“Judge me by my size, do you?”

When you judge people by how well they pass, the same thing happens.... you'll eventually go over to the Dark Side.

When you finally conquer your demons and become the woman you're meant to be, you just may feel this feeling:

“Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter.”

Right now there is a book in the bookstores called "In the Company of Women". One profile amongst dozens is from a woman that kinda is in your line of work. Her quote was something like this:

"Be humble. Be kind. Give back."

And never forget this last one from Yoda:

“Truly wonderful, the mind of a child is.”

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Not all LGBT people are a part of the "LGBT community" - that not just being on the part of activism but also the hedonistic sexuality of it. Many people live "normal" lives that have no involvement in those things and just happen to be gay, trans, etc.

As far as "moral wrongness", here's my personal belief- God doesn't make mistakes. LGBT people are exactly as God intended them to be. Religion is a human construct. It can be used for good- to lift people up and edify them- or as an excuse to reject people because of whatever Bible verse they can twist to work in support of said rejection. In the end, the latter religious people are going to get a big surprise at judgement day because they FAILED big time at love and acceptance (which Jesus, the "Christian savior" preached on incessantly).

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butterflydreams

Look at them, not at all the 'sick' stuff. And even when you can't avert your gaze from those that cause you distress, remember: the sun shines on them, too.

I know. It's not their fault at all. Any distress I feel isn't their fault.

That's right, it isn't. And you can do damage you don't mean to do if you let this chain of thought and feelings go too far and own you. I've seen it a million times. This is how it starts. Not to be corny about it, but there is SO much truth in the fictional character Yoda telling Luke Skywalker about a form of brainwashing that happens almost before you can say "Consent....."

Oh I know. The people who judge like that scare even me. I'm afraid of people judging me. In the supermarket tonight, for example. Or even other trans people. That scares me the most.

I don't ever want to be like the people you've told me about. I think about it a lot, because I see it a lot.

When you judge people by how well they pass, the same thing happens.... you'll eventually go over to the Dark Side.

When you finally conquer your demons and become the woman you're meant to be, you just may feel this feeling:

“Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter.”

I mostly judge myself on how well I pass. It's a lot easier for me to see the beauty in others. I'm upsettingly critical of myself. I know if I didn't feel so bad about myself, I wouldn't have any reason to be upset at others. That's the most ugly thing about me, and I hate it. My self hatred projects out onto others if I don't stop it.

And that's why Autumn Sunrise is so right. I am lonely. I am alone. We're not all able to lift ourselves up by our own bootstraps. I'm not able to. And I get tired, and then I get weak, and I slip. It's hard to feel positive about yourself when you're alone. "Well, something must be repelling others," you tell yourself. I've been strong on my own for a long, long, long time.

If I could bring myself up, feel whole about myself, feel confident in who I am, I wouldn't have all these other feelings. I'd say with confidence that god made me exactly as I was supposed to be, and that is ok. But I fail when it comes to doing that.

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epiphanycakes

This may be surprising to hear, considering my standing in this community, but it's true, and I need to say it.

There are times (far more than I'd like) where I feel like being who I am, being what I am, transitioning, all of it, is morally wrong. It's against god/nature/whatever.

I find myself agreeing (in some tiny, but persistent and strange way) with attitudes about everything not straight/cis being bad and immoral. And then I hate myself for being what I am. "You can't have children, Hadley, you're basically worthless. And now you can't even raise your own kids to be moral and righteous people."

I see people highlighting some (to be perfectly honest) very disturbing and sick things in the LGBT world, and I want to be nowhere near any of it. The rational part of me understands not everybody is like that, and there are sick and disturbing people everywhere. But there's something hard about seeing some trans woman with this dead look in her eyes from god only knows all she's done. It's so hard. Am I going to have that dead look in my eyes? I mean, she can do whatever she wants, but I have to be honest: the highly sexually charged nature of LGBT stuff makes me upset to be a part of it.

I'm probably not articulating my feelings on this very well. I'm not saying what any of these people are doing is objectively wrong, it's just extremely personally distasteful to me.

Or I could just be completely emotionally exhausted. -_-

well I feel like "half" a lesbian the way the community sometimes reacts, and the shit I get are form gay men/boys ironically like " why didn't you stay gay? " :angry: and drag shit i still call them he as there doing it for fun. I say to them this is how I am as often as I can because this is me the real me inside. As for me I felt broken due to my disabilities people even fucking teachers saying stuff like " your doing it on purpose" and other crap or not trying "hard enough".

With my trans stuff I really don't listen to any trans woman there often ( not always) petty . I have more trans guy friends if i'm honest. there more down to earth ^.^ plus shaving tips for there face -giggles-

I was a catholic but could'nt understand why i was so "broken". Plus my gran and mum and my aunts were extreme and didn't want me reading certain science books because of evolution in it and they removed all my books basically censorship. Don't worry my mums mellowed out we talk how i'm more spiritual now and that this is my journey :wub:

I'm at the point were I'm getting the bravery to be me one day at a time as I grow into the woman i am ^_^

ohh and here's some chocolate cake :cake:

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This may be surprising to hear, considering my standing in this community, but it's true, and I need to say it.

There are times (far more than I'd like) where I feel like being who I am, being what I am, transitioning, all of it, is morally wrong. It's against god/nature/whatever.

If that were true, HRT wouldn't work.

:O this is very very true. HRT so naturally changes our body and emotional and mental experience. and not only that, but our brains are more feminine or more masculine. there's no way this is against God, if God gave us such an easy way to change these things about ourselves.

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