Love isn't all that

[Tarfeather]

"Maybe sometimes we don't do the right thing because the wrong thing looks more dangerous, and we don't want to look scared, so we go and do the wrong thing just because it's dangerous. We're more concerned with not looking scared than with judging right."

― Philip Pullman, The Amber Spyglass

I've been wrong about many things, lately. My "principled view" clouded my judgement, as I was trying to enforce the thing that looked right, while disregarding the things that the people I care about really felt.

It seems that the girl I've been dating, really expects me to make a choice between her and my asexual partner. Before, I'd explained about my relationship, and that my partner is fine with me going on dates with this girl and all. I interpreted her continuing on these dates with me, as her also being fine with it, but there I was mistaken.

Hence, I had been faced with a choice. My asexual partner, who can not make me truly happy. Or this sexual woman, who in the past two months has made me as happy as I've rarely felt in my life.

I wish so strongly to be with this woman. The thought is consuming me. I feel like there's nothing I wouldn't do, wouldn't sacrifice, for her. Even if it means trying to be monogamous, despite me not really being compatible with that style of relationship. To belong fully to her, it seems to me, would be acceptable, if it means there was a chance that she would one day belong to me.

I wanted no regrets, so I tried everything that I could do. Despite knowing of the love I have for my partner, I tried to, forced myself to, disregard all of it. I approached my partner, and I told her honestly and without sugarcoating about my wishes. I told her that I thought we should break up. That I wanted to find happiness, and felt I couldn't find it with her. It tore my heart to do this, but I felt that if I didn't honestly stand by this wish of mine, then later I would regret it for not honestly fighting for what I desire.

The reaction was unexpected. My girlfriend has repeatedly told me that she doesn't love me. Even over a year into our relationship, she herself was unsure about our relationship, because she didn't like the feeling of being dependent on someone else. Only a few weeks ago, when I brought up the same subject, she reacted calmly and told me that she'd understand it if I broke up, and that she doesn't fear it because she believed our friendship to remain the same.

But now? She cried. She told me that, in the last few weeks, the way she views our relationship has changed. And it's true. As I've been dating this other woman, as I've learned how it feels to be desired, I've grown more at peace with myself and the situation with my partner, I've started treating her differently, and we've grown close in a way that we've never been before. She says now it's less true that she doesn't love me, she considers me her "other half", and the "most blissful part of her life".

I'd like to say that it was difficult. That I had to struggle with myself to do the right thing, that it was a great sacrifice I made to decide for my girlfriend, despite being so unhappy. But it wasn't. The moment I realized my partner's feelings, that breaking up would truly hurt her, there was no question for me anymore.

Hurting my partner, is not an option to me. Even if it means missing out on a chance of happiness. Even if it means appearing like a coward who's only scared of losing the stability they have in an established relationship. Even if it means lacking something incredibly important in my life, for the years to come, and having only myself to blame for it.

I always told myself that I loved my partner. That she's "the right one" for me, that I'd do everything for her, that we belong together. But there was always so much doubt, always the feeling I only told myself that to make myself feel good, to prop up the significance of what I had.

Now I understand that I do love her, and I understand what it means. And I'm not as happy as I thought I should be about that. I find myself wishing I had met this other woman first, that I'd had the chance to build this kind of connection with someone who desires me sexually. I think it's too cruel, that the person who is likely to be my partner for life, also happens to be my first serious partner, and will never be able to show me what it's like to have a sexually fulfilling experience.

[Starlit Sky]

I'm already visualizing all the people: "You can make your own choices! It's your own fault if you don't go and get what you want!" But, people, love is more complicated than that. People are more complicated than that. This situation as a whole is, in fact, more complicated than that.

Whoever said that love is the only deciding factor in a successful relationship is wrong. Just because you break up with someone doesn't mean that you don't love them; just because you choose someone else over another person doesn't mean you don't love the person who got left behind. It DOES take more than love to make a relationship work . . . and yet, love is still so vital in a romantic relationship.

What's more is that love isn't always nice, either. Love can be a bitch. That's not just something that people who are heartbroken say . . . people in love say that, too. Because it's true. I love love the same as many other people do, but it's cruel. It can twist you and your entire life and you can be none the wiser until it's too late. At the same time, love--in all its forms, not just romantic--is a truly wonderful thing.

I don't really know what to say, Tarfeather, except . . . I agree. Love isn't all that.

[nanogretchen4]

It's probably for the best that you did not directly leave your partner for another person. The more considerate and respectful thing is to decide whether you want to remain in a relationship or not on its own merits, with no third party involved. There's little motivation to work on one relationship during the hard times if one partner might suddenly leave for an easier, newer relationship already in progress.

If on sober reflection you decide that your current relationship is not conducive to your longterm happiness, you can still break up. Now you know that the breakup will be difficult, as breakups usually are, but sometimes it needs to be done. However, I think it's more fair if in the immediate aftermath of the breakup you and your partner are both single with no safety net.

[Guest]

This is why using "poly" as a bandage for relationship issues fails. It only works if everyone involved is *actually* poly, otherwise it just causes more issues.

[Guest]

It seems that the girl I've been dating, really expects me to make a choice between her and my asexual partner. Before, I'd explained about my relationship, and that my partner is fine with me going on dates with this girl and all. I interpreted her continuing on these dates with me, as her also being fine with it, but there I was mistaken.

Oh, Tar. Tar, Tar, Tar.

It should have been an easy choice at that very moment. Someone who expects a choice like that after you honestly explained your polyamorous sitch and views gets one chance to cut out the entitlement, stat, and if they can't/won't take that chance, they get dumped on the spot because they're not acceptable partner material.

For me, staying true to principles - and that surely includes being true to myself - trump happiness. Always. Better to suffer honorably, than to live happily in dishonor. (Qapla'! ;))

[Snao Cone]

It seems that the girl I've been dating, really expects me to make a choice between her and my asexual partner. Before, I'd explained about my relationship, and that my partner is fine with me going on dates with this girl and all. I interpreted her continuing on these dates with me, as her also being fine with it, but there I was mistaken.

Oh, Tar. Tar, Tar, Tar.

It should have been an easy choice at that very moment. Someone who expects a choice like that after you honestly explained your polyamorous sitch and views gets one chance to cut out the entitlement, stat, and if they can't/won't take that chance, they get dumped on the spot because they're not acceptable partner material.

For me, staying true to principles - and that surely includes being true to myself - trump happiness. Always. Better to suffer honorably, than to live happily in dishonor. (Qapla'! ;))

...or perhaps Tar has learned enough about himself to know that polyamory isn't a key part in who he is or why he wants human relationships. Your decision in these circumstances would be much easier to make because polyamory and not being tied down by a partner are major parts of who you are and how you wish to live in this world. For Tar, while he obviously doesn't live for monogamy and believe in some absolute morality of one true love, he's come to a different conclusion based on his experiences.

Now, if I were to apply my principles and preferences to his situation, I would've shaken my head at the whole thing before he got in either relationship, but I respect that his choices are his own. :P

[Sally]

Oh, Tar. Tar, Tar, Tar.

It should have been an easy choice at that very moment. Someone who expects a choice like that after you honestly explained your polyamorous sitch and views gets one chance to cut out the entitlement, stat, and if they can't/won't take that chance, they get dumped on the spot because they're not acceptable partner material.

For me, staying true to principles - and that surely includes being true to myself - trump happiness. Always. Better to suffer honorably, than to live happily in dishonor. (Qapla'! ;))

Ghobe, Mysticus. This is not about you.

[Deebee]

Deleted

[Guest]

Oh, Tar. Tar, Tar, Tar.

It should have been an easy choice at that very moment. Someone who expects a choice like that after you honestly explained your polyamorous sitch and views gets one chance to cut out the entitlement, stat, and if they can't/won't take that chance, they get dumped on the spot because they're not acceptable partner material.

For me, staying true to principles - and that surely includes being true to myself - trump happiness. Always. Better to suffer honorably, than to live happily in dishonor. (Qapla'! ;))

Ghobe, Mysticus. This is not about you.

Did... did you just speak Klingon to me, Sal? :o

*so impressed that I fall into flabbergasted silence*

[Sally]

Did... did you just speak Klingon to me, Sal? :o

*so impressed that I fall into flabbergasted silence*

Well, it was worth it, then! ^_^

[MrDane]

I dont want to cheat or lie to my lovely ace-wife, who I kind of expect/fear is not done with finding out, how much sex she is better off with! For my own sake and the sake of trust in the relationship, I need to say out loud, what I feel and what I do!

I guess is like this, if we cut down sex to nothing:

I can be with wife and live with a depressionlike state, popping up every once in a while, and no sex

I can be with wife and at the same time, have sex with someone else(but to her knowledge and understanding, of course), but might still have milder depression.

...or I can leave, with the risk of making wife and kids very vulnerable for a depression, with migth leave me depressed!

[Tarfeather]

This is why using "poly" as a bandage for relationship issues fails. It only works if everyone involved is *actually* poly, otherwise it just causes more issues.

Actually, from over here the reason poly "doesn't seem to be working", is because everyone seems to have a default go-to-mono assumption. And even so, as is obvious from my decision, poly is working in the case of my relationship, it's just that the price to pay seems pretty hefty to me.

It seems that the girl I've been dating, really expects me to make a choice between her and my asexual partner. Before, I'd explained about my relationship, and that my partner is fine with me going on dates with this girl and all. I interpreted her continuing on these dates with me, as her also being fine with it, but there I was mistaken.

Oh, Tar. Tar, Tar, Tar.

It should have been an easy choice at that very moment. Someone who expects a choice like that after you honestly explained your polyamorous sitch and views gets one chance to cut out the entitlement, stat, and if they can't/won't take that chance, they get dumped on the spot because they're not acceptable partner material.

For me, staying true to principles - and that surely includes being true to myself - trump happiness. Always. Better to suffer honorably, than to live happily in dishonor. (Qapla'! ;))

Ooooooo, real talk. You know, in her defense, I explained to her about the asexual nature of my partner, and the lack of jealousy on her side. I didn't explain about my views on polyamory. To be honest, I was just keeping on waiting for her to catch on and start asking questions, but she never did. Considering she's a rather smart, rather extraverted woman in her mid-twenties, it was just hard for me to believe that she doesn't either a) already know about poly b) if she doesn't, the setup of my relationship doesn't intrigue her enough to ask questions of her own accord. But, she never asked, so I didn't push the matter on her, because TBH I still have some internalized mono-normativity in me, and when even my own mother gets mad at me and accuses me of wanting a "Zweitfrau", it's hard to stand by this aspect of my identity.

But yes, you're right. Obviously. I realize now I've actually made a mistake and done this woman an injustice. I should have explained about the poly nature of my relationship from the start, and made clear to her the implications of that. That I'd never leave my partner for her, but that there's also no reason from my side why we couldn't be together. That it's entirely her choice whether she's fine with that or not.

You know, it just.. seems cruel and cold to say those things? But when you think about it, not saying is was what was actually harmful and disingenuous. Damn.

PS: Phone call has been scheduled. All of a sudden, I feel certain in what I need to do. No more doubts. This might've been the single best piece of advice I've gotten on this forum, Mysti.

[Tarfeather]

It seems that the girl I've been dating, really expects me to make a choice between her and my asexual partner. Before, I'd explained about my relationship, and that my partner is fine with me going on dates with this girl and all. I interpreted her continuing on these dates with me, as her also being fine with it, but there I was mistaken.

Oh, Tar. Tar, Tar, Tar.

It should have been an easy choice at that very moment. Someone who expects a choice like that after you honestly explained your polyamorous sitch and views gets one chance to cut out the entitlement, stat, and if they can't/won't take that chance, they get dumped on the spot because they're not acceptable partner material.

For me, staying true to principles - and that surely includes being true to myself - trump happiness. Always. Better to suffer honorably, than to live happily in dishonor. (Qapla'! ;))

...or perhaps Tar has learned enough about himself to know that polyamory isn't a key part in who he is or why he wants human relationships. Your decision in these circumstances would be much easier to make because polyamory and not being tied down by a partner are major parts of who you are and how you wish to live in this world. For Tar, while he obviously doesn't live for monogamy and believe in some absolute morality of one true love, he's come to a different conclusion based on his experiences.

Now, if I were to apply my principles and preferences to his situation, I would've shaken my head at the whole thing before he got in either relationship, but I respect that his choices are his own. :P

It's more like.. I'm willing to "compromise" on monogamy, the same way an asexual might compromise on sex. It's not my nature, and I'm pretty much certain I wouldn't be able to do a monogamous relationship for years or decades. And I err on the side of monogamy sometimes, because society is constantly telling us that's the "right thing", and I don't know if you know that, but sometimes it's really hard to tell apart your own nature from a message that has been drilled into you since you were a kid.

I don't know if poly is a "key part of who I am", but I do know that being unable to love only one person is a key part of who I am, and that not betraying my partner ever is a key part of who I am. Those two things happen to add up to being poly, in my case.

[Lara Black]

It seems to me that polyamorous relationships are a tricky thing to handle for all involved.

This is why using "poly" as a bandage for relationship issues fails. It only works if everyone involved is *actually* poly, otherwise it just causes more issues.

But how do you know if other people (and yourself, for that matter) are “actually” poly? Both my major relationships happen to be with poly people, and the first time around I honestly thought of myself as polyamorous, so we had an open marriage. It took me years to realize that I was, in fact, monogamous to the bone but ready to compromise, same as Tarfeather is ready to compromise on monogamy. I must admit, as with any compromise, frustration builds up from time to time, and I sometimes wish that the man I love was mine entirely. Sometimes my mood plummets when I come in contact with the fact of my partner’s polyamorous preferences. Nevertheless, most of the time I’m fine with it, and for me it’s certainly no reason to break up with the person. So I don’t think it’s as clean-cut as poly should only live with poly – there are many shades of gray.

[Tarfeather]

It's been a slow process for us going from mono to poly. It started out as "Hey, I can't get this from you, so if we stay together I need the option to get it elsewhere", but it gradually transitioned into her being completely fine with the fact that I fall for and pursue other women, as she realized that it doesn't detract from my love for her (on the contrary, me being happier adds to it), and she realized she doesn't really care about what I do with others, only about what our relationship is like in and of itself. For my part, I don't know how I'd emotionally respond to her finding someone else, but I trust her to be true to me just as much as I now trust myself to be true to her.

[nanogretchen4]

Does your partner still feel the same now that you have actually tried to leave her for monogamy with the "secondary" partner?

[Philip027]

I don't really know what to say about this thread, but holy shit @ Sally springing Klingon at Mysticus.

I feel like I just stepped into the Twilight Zone.

[Kai99]

Tar I encourage you to do what makes you happy. You are not in charge of the happiness of someone else. You only have ONE life to live and your choosing someone else over your own. For goodness sake, be selfish! If this girl is truly opening doors to experiences you always wish you had, than go for it. Your girlfriend will have to deal with it like any other adult.

[Tarfeather]

Nope. Mysti's advice turned out to be on spot. I explained to the woman I'm pursuing my situation, and she actually ended up understanding exactly what I was saying. She even stated she was impressed my girlfriend trusts me this much.

It's just, what's weird is that, she seems to keep thinking that I'm not sure what I want. Now, to me, what I want is very clear: I want to be in a relationship with both of these wonderful women. I even told her as much, before she made this remark of me seeming uncertain.

So to me, it feels more like she's not sure about what she wants. She seems to imply that we can't be in a relationship, if I want to be with my girlfriend. Yet she doesn't say that me being in a relationship is a deal-breaker for her, either. It's very confusing.

Basically, this sums up why I'm so confused:

Me: "I'm glad you don't hate me now."

Her: "Why should I? I don't have a reason to."

[later in the conversation]

Me: "Are you sure you're not upset with me?"

Her: "I don't know."

:|

At the end, she suggested that we continue meeting each other and everything.. And I'm very happy about that. But I really don't understand, where she is going with this?

[Starlit Sky]

At the end, she suggested that we continue meeting each other and everything.. And I'm very happy about that. But I really don't understand, where she is going with this?

I hate to be the cynic, but potentially to ultimately break you and your partner up. Don't get me wrong, because I'm not saying that this is DEFINITELY what's going through her head, but there are many, many people who would hope that they could show you how cool and wonderful they are so that you would only be with her, and not anyone else. Not just to agree to it, but actually want things to be that way.

How does this woman really feel about polyamory? Do you know? If she's just not into it . . . I don't think you'll be able to change her mind. I mean, it is possible, but if she rides the S.S. Mono and is a full supporter of it (even if she doesn't have a problem with polyamory), it might be difficult for her to jump ship.

[Telecaster68]

Even if she's not doing it cynically, and she has no defined endgame, sticking around on a 'let's see how it goes, I'm here for you' basis while hoping you ultimately choose her rather than C is perfectly understandable. It's pretty much what I'd do, I think. Not cynically or deceitfully, but just to maximise the chances of getting to be with the person I wanted.

I suspect it's a combination of that and not really knowing exactly what she wants either.

[Starlit Sky]

^ Telecaster worded it a lot better than I did.

When I said that she might be sticking around in hopes that you'll "change your mind," I wasn't trying to say that she might be doing that in a way that would mean she's trying to do it to be mean / manipulative / anything like that. More that she sees something she likes (you), she knows what she (probably) thinks is ideal (only you) . . . and even if she logically knows that you aren't going to change your mind, she still might be hoping.

On the other hand, it's also possible that she knows what she likes (you), she knows what she wants (you), and so she might be willing to compromise. It's therefore possible that she's not waiting to see if you change your mind, but rather if she'll change her own.

Honestly, though, that one probably is less likely. And even if it is a part of what she's thinking, there's still a good chance that the other possibility is swimming around in her thoughts, too.

[Telecaster68]

She probably just genuinely wants to be there for you in your travails with C, Tar.

[Blondebeard]

"Maybe sometimes we don't do the right thing because the wrong thing looks more dangerous, and we don't want to look scared, so we go and do the wrong thing just because it's dangerous. We're more concerned with not looking scared than with judging right."― Philip Pullman, The Amber SpyglassI've been wrong about many things, lately. My "principled view" clouded my judgement, as I was trying to enforce the thing that looked right, while disregarding the things that the people I care about really felt.It seems that the girl I've been dating, really expects me to make a choice between her and my asexual partner. Before, I'd explained about my relationship, and that my partner is fine with me going on dates with this girl and all. I interpreted her continuing on these dates with me, as her also being fine with it, but there I was mistaken.Hence, I had been faced with a choice. My asexual partner, who can not make me truly happy. Or this sexual woman, who in the past two months has made me as happy as I've rarely felt in my life.I wish so strongly to be with this woman. The thought is consuming me. I feel like there's nothing I wouldn't do, wouldn't sacrifice, for her. Even if it means trying to be monogamous, despite me not really being compatible with that style of relationship. To belong fully to her, it seems to me, would be acceptable, if it means there was a chance that she would one day belong to me.I wanted no regrets, so I tried everything that I could do. Despite knowing of the love I have for my partner, I tried to, forced myself to, disregard all of it. I approached my partner, and I told her honestly and without sugarcoating about my wishes. I told her that I thought we should break up. That I wanted to find happiness, and felt I couldn't find it with her. It tore my heart to do this, but I felt that if I didn't honestly stand by this wish of mine, then later I would regret it for not honestly fighting for what I desire.The reaction was unexpected. My girlfriend has repeatedly told me that she doesn't love me. Even over a year into our relationship, she herself was unsure about our relationship, because she didn't like the feeling of being dependent on someone else. Only a few weeks ago, when I brought up the same subject, she reacted calmly and told me that she'd understand it if I broke up, and that she doesn't fear it because she believed our friendship to remain the same.But now? She cried. She told me that, in the last few weeks, the way she views our relationship has changed. And it's true. As I've been dating this other woman, as I've learned how it feels to be desired, I've grown more at peace with myself and the situation with my partner, I've started treating her differently, and we've grown close in a way that we've never been before. She says now it's less true that she doesn't love me, she considers me her "other half", and the "most blissful part of her life".I'd like to say that it was difficult. That I had to struggle with myself to do the right thing, that it was a great sacrifice I made to decide for my girlfriend, despite being so unhappy. But it wasn't. The moment I realized my partner's feelings, that breaking up would truly hurt her, there was no question for me anymore.Hurting my partner, is not an option to me. Even if it means missing out on a chance of happiness. Even if it means appearing like a coward who's only scared of losing the stability they have in an established relationship. Even if it means lacking something incredibly important in my life, for the years to come, and having only myself to blame for it.I always told myself that I loved my partner. That she's "the right one" for me, that I'd do everything for her, that we belong together. But there was always so much doubt, always the feeling I only told myself that to make myself feel good, to prop up the significance of what I had.Now I understand that I do love her, and I understand what it means. And I'm not as happy as I thought I should be about that. I find myself wishing I had met this other woman first, that I'd had the chance to build this kind of connection with someone who desires me sexually. I think it's too cruel, that the person who is likely to be my partner for life, also happens to be my first serious partner, and will never be able to show me what it's like to have a sexually fulfilling experience.

Imagine how you will feel when you gain self steem and start having great sex and feel so much passion and connection, your past relationship will look like if you share some part of your life with a friend not a gorlfriend.

[Tarfeather]

Imagine how you will feel when you gain self steem and start having great sex and feel so much passion and connection, your past relationship will look like if you share some part of your life with a friend not a gorlfriend.

Do you take pleasure in tormenting others..?

[Starlit Sky]

Tarfeather's already said what he's sure he's not going to do. I don't see the point of trying to convince him he should break up with his partner.

Besides that, he's poly--it's perfectly reasonable for Tarfeather to have sex with so-and-so and not another. So nah, what you said isn't all that applicable with him.

[Guest]

Imagine how you will feel when you gain self steem and start having great sex and feel so much passion and connection, your past relationship will look like if you share some part of your life with a friend not a gorlfriend.

Not everyone is Iike you.

[Tarfeather]

Besides that, he's poly--it's perfectly reasonable for Tarfeather to have sex with so-and-so and not another. So nah, what you said isn't all that applicable with him.

But don't you see, if I ever had sex with someone else, obviously all the years of building an intimate and trusting relationship with my partner would go POOF, and she'd "just" be a friend. Oh, and also also, friendships by definition are less intimate and important than relationships, particularly sexual ones. *sage nods*

[Sally]

Imagine how you will feel when you gain self steem and start having great sex and feel so much passion and connection, your past relationship will look like if you share some part of your life with a friend not a gorlfriend.

blondebeard, why do you feel that you need to tell everyone to leave their marriage/relationship? You always do that, and it really isn't helpful to them.

[Blondebeard]

Imagine how you will feel when you gain self steem and start having great sex and feel so much passion and connection, your past relationship will look like if you share some part of your life with a friend not a gorlfriend.

blondebeard, why do you feel that you need to tell everyone to leave their marriage/relationship? You always do that, and it really isn't helpful to them.

I dont think they are going to break up because somebody they dont know have this opinion, if they do it is because they want it. Having said that, Tar have a poly relationship, he can have sex with other people.

I wonder how he would feel if he meets a girl and have grrat sex with her.