I'm not sure (civil discussion please)

[Luftschlosseule]

At the time, they don't necessarily know that there is anything beyond nonbinary.

For me it was the other way round: I thought I've got to be cis because the other option would be that I somehow got a female body instead of my male one. But I don't feel like that's the case, and I didn't knew there were other options. Even as I heard of genderfluid it was always about female-male, and while I thought that I might be fluid I was very sure that I am not a man.

I pondered about this till I finally registered here to find people to talk about asexuality, and found the term agender and it made klick.

But I only found that term because I looked into most of the currently active threads, I didn't search for it because, you know, I thought I were cis.

Believe me, you're not the only one who is confused about easing body dysphoria.

Or: When I fall in love with somebody - if, it never happened before so I may be aromantic - what is that called?

I have a neutral name, but am I comfortable with being called Miss or Mrs.? If not, how can I tell people that they shouldn't call me that even if I am wearing a skirt or have painted nails and make-up? Should I tell my family? It was bad enough finding therapy while only being asexual, good luck finding a therapist who knows the term agender and knows about my illnesses.

Can I call somebody Sir or Mrs. again without feeling guilty?

And every time I catch myself thinking of a person in gendered terms there is a "BEEEEP! Try again!" in my head.

Also it bothers me that the only stuff I find about gender is in English. I may be able to talk to friends about that, but loads of older people around here only believe in facts they can read about in their mother language. Ha, see? Gendered term. That wasn't intentional.

I kind of feel like a catholic from the Renaissance-era that got into a space rocket and sees that the earth is round. Don't the people on the underside have to fall off? How does it work? Why? Is everything everybody ever told me a lie?

[Philip027]

Well, I'm not a big fan of hug-boxes. If only you knew the kinds of videos I seek out. There's this one guy who does a podcast every week. To call him alt-right would be an understatement. I don't know why I listen to it...I guess it's just fascinating? He commonly refers to trans people as "cosplaying at the opposite sex." But I'd never complain about him. He is what he is.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the videos. Some of them may be just fine.

I'm talking about the comment sections. It's pretty rare that reading them will leave you feeling better about humanity.

[Finn.]

@ hadley:

We have talked about this before in this thread. It's totally possible and valid to change your labels and have nonbinary be a "stepping stone" and ending up being cis or binary trans.

I just don't really like seeing this proclaimed by non-nb people, or rather cis people I guess. I've seen it used as an argument against the validity of being nonbinary lots of times. Afab people being "confused" and "too young to know their identity" and "actually just being a trans guy". Or the best, "being a closeted trans guy that just doesn't want to deal with the repercussions". (or the other way around for amab people) As if being nonbinary doesn't have repercussions.

I mean, it makes sense that you don't "get" being nonbinary totally. I don't get being binary trans totally either, it's just not my experience. I cannot ever imagine to fully transition to male. Or the other way around, hypothetically. I'm somewhat envious that you get to have this clear path. But I'm also lucky that I, as in me personally not nonbinary people in general, don't really experience bottom dysphoria. And I don't experience dysphoria because of my menstrual cycle.

Also, there is no general "nonbinary experience" when it comes to physical dysphoria. As I said, I don't have the "full package" but others do, and others have less dysphoria than me. Different things help with reducing dysphoria for different people. Some nb people transition in a "binary way", some only go on hrt, some only do top surgery etc. . The only thing you can do is listen to our experiences and respect them.

@ skullery maid:

I've read discussions about this. Lots of people are unhappy how most if not all labels are defined by how they relate to the gender binary. But the gender binary is simply our reality (in many societies), of course that's something that shapes us all. How would you yourself know your gender without it, how a binary trans person, how anybody? And as our society genders a whole variety of things (as in clothes and colors and hobbies), we also relate to these in that way.

Also I don't think it's the goal of "the nonbinaries" to "drive a stake in the heart of binary gender". Where does this come from, do you think we hate on binary people for being binary? I don't really understand.

There's simply an emotional difference (and a cognitive one, as the first one is only a matter of opinion) between "being against gender roles" and social dysphoria. People being sexist and looking down on women and treating me badly because I represent one from their perspective is one thing. That doesn't cause me dysphoria per se, it causes disgust and anger.

I can't think of a good way to explain it right now as I am a bit exhausted, but I'm also not sure how open your are to explanations, as you assume a whole lot about our experiences with your "basic, passing knowledge".

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I guess the one thing that really struck me about the video was the exuberance. Coming from a lower middle class neighborhood in the rust belt in the 80's where such things were never talked about and having to hide out in the open, I found myself asking 'What a brave new world-- one I'll never live to see.'

I didn't think they were being political, so I can't say much of anything they said crashed any of my boundaries. I can't say that about things that were done and said to me by people in 90's and 2000s in the transgender community then.

While I don't understand their world and I doubt they'd understand mine or my past, I can't say I found anything they said offensive. Just different. And doesn't it take exuberance in expressing differences sometimes to break down walls of repression/oppression?

JMHO.....

[Emery.]

Otherwise they would have to just take the misgendering and ignorance and internalize it all...

Or not and shrug it off.

I suppose that's the difference between people like you and me, Emery, and people like Hadley. We don't have a consistent sense of gender, so "misgendering" is something we have to accept as fact of life, and the only path is to grow the resilience to "shrug it off" as you say. This concept of binary trans people feeling that they've "Missed so much of their life", to the point of even blaming themselves for not transitioning earlier, seems to be rather consistent. Meanwhile, to me it almost feels like there's some kind of bliss and feeling of being at peace with yourself and your identity there, that to me will always be closed. So with it being closed to me, and there being no hope of ever finding that happiness to begin with, how does that make me unable to relate to your pain, Hadley?

I have a very clear and consistent sense of gender, it's just that I don't subscribe to the popular interpretation of it and what gender means. Which makes sense, because I am not a "normal" person, let's face it. And I have to shrug off many things already, so shrugging off one more doesn't make much of a difference. However, on the place of anyone who is transitioning, it would irritate the hell out of me if someone misgendered me, so I completely understand. It's like effort for nothing, I dunno, very frustrating. I admit, misgendering is awful, if you already make the effort, been there, done that. And I know very well the grief of having missed so much in life, and regret a lot that I didn't get the courage to experiment with my gender presentation earlier.

Just speaking for myself. I'm not sure if I get the viewpoint when you're exactly in the middle, tbh. But they way you put it, it sounds pretty bad...

It's not some "trans lite"

For some it isn't, for some it is. Just my three cents.

The only reason I still identify as genderqueer is that "trans male" isn't really the case, but sort of is at the same time, and the way I solve it is by getting creative with gender expression, aka "genderqueer". But what I really want is for people to just p*** off in some ways.

In my personal case, I have a wish to have a male body, so being interacted with as though I'm physically male makes me happy, but interacting with me socially as though I'm male (male pronouns, male gender roles, etc) really, really, really bothers me.

And I'm the complete opposite. I prefer socialising like a man, but I wouldn't neccesarily want to be one physically. If I was, I would be cool with it, but I like being female too, and I don't think it makes any sense to adjust my body to someone else's standards and "thinkings" about it.

While I don't think gender is binary, whatever it means, I agree with a lot of what you say Skulls.

[Azazel]

So I thought a bit about the "getting annoyed" part (the original subject).

It's clearly not really about binary vs. non-binary, as has already been discussed. I know some binary trans people who get annoyed by open, vocal, binary trans people. I myself get a little annoyed at the attitude of non-binary people like in the video, being non-binary myself. And here's why.

It's about ignorance. On some level, we prefer there is no such broadcasting, no such spreading of awareness. Where there is ignorance, where people do not know about, haven't heard about, to some extent we get to determine the rules; we get to set the narrative. When stealth is desired, it is so easy to fly under the radar, because people see what they expect to see and they can never expect to see what they don't know about. When we come out to acquaintances, we make our own explanations, thereby having a good chance of getting to shape the persons views firsthand. It grants us a measure of control of how (if) other people see us, and how they treat us.

But you, and I, and my binary trans friends need to understand that while we may desire this, and we may hope for this, we have no right to demand or ask for this. What those other people are doing, obnoxious as they may be, they are playing the long game, win or lose. They are fighting for, instead of allowances and exceptions being made for us, a complete integration within society. They are fighting to change the rules of society that we are breaking by not conforming to gender assignments.

And this upsets us, because it takes away the control we could have through ignorance. If they play their cards right, we will likely not reap the true benefits of their victory. And if they screw it up, we all suffer the losses.

And yet we have no right to complain, as theirs is the ideologically correct path. They may cause us strife, but theirs is the only path that can permanently erase our collective dysphoria.

[butterflydreams]

@ hadley:

We have talked about this before in this thread. It's totally possible and valid to change your labels and have nonbinary be a "stepping stone" and ending up being cis or binary trans.

I just don't really like seeing this proclaimed by non-nb people, or rather cis people I guess. I've seen it used as an argument against the validity of being nonbinary lots of times. Afab people being "confused" and "too young to know their identity" and "actually just being a trans guy". Or the best, "being a closeted trans guy that just doesn't want to deal with the repercussions". (or the other way around for amab people) As if being nonbinary doesn't have repercussions.

I mean, it makes sense that you don't "get" being nonbinary totally. I don't get being binary trans totally either, it's just not my experience. I cannot ever imagine to fully transition to male. Or the other way around, hypothetically. I'm somewhat envious that you get to have this clear path. But I'm also lucky that I, as in me personally not nonbinary people in general, don't really experience bottom dysphoria. And I don't experience dysphoria because of my menstrual cycle.

I honestly wonder if that's something that binary trans people are taking issue with. Maybe they're really struggling with (let's just say) bottom dysphoria. If someone (binary or otherwise) comes along with a kind of "tee hee, I'm trans, I like these labels, yada yada yada" it can be really hard to not feel a little bit upset by that. I know I just want relief. I'm constantly afraid I'll never be able to live a normal life. Non-binary people are probably pretty much the same. I just want to feel respected in how much I worry about my ability to live a basic life.

Also I don't think it's the goal of "the nonbinaries" to "drive a stake in the heart of binary gender". Where does this come from, do you think we hate on binary people for being binary? I don't really understand.

This is unfortunately something I have very consistently seen, and virtually every time it's coming from someone who's nonbinary. It doesn't pop up too much here for whatever reason, but when it does, I try to call it out. I was at a trans group a while back, and there was someone there like that. It made me very uncomfortable, so much so that I almost didn't go back. Maybe it's just a pitfall for nonbinary people to watch out for.

I mean, if you want to call gender an ideology fine, but it isn't for me (and it clearly isn't for a lot of nonbinary people, based on this thread). It's very much my lived reality. I've seen a lot of nonbinary (and some binary) people out there call gender a strictly social construct, and that you can just choose. Again, that's fine, but that starts to push awfully close to trivializing something I'm NOT choosing. Something that has a real, tangible effect on my life.

Not saying this is the case in this thread, or even necessarily in the video, but I have seen it. Figured I'd mention it.

I guess the one thing that really struck me about the video was the exuberance. Coming from a lower middle class neighborhood in the rust belt in the 80's where such things were never talked about and having to hide out in the open, I found myself asking 'What a brave new world-- one I'll never live to see.'

Yeah, I think this is exactly it. I'm a bit younger than you and even I see the difference. Coming out as trans when I was a teenager, even as I was in high school in the state that legalized gay marriage for the first time in the country...it would've been the end of me :( Clearly that's not the case to the same degree, otherwise videos like this wouldn't get made. It's hard not to feel bad about what it would've been like had I been born later.

[Guest]

I've seen the whole NB vs Trans fight many, many times wherein the NBs are all "you're reinforcing gender binary! You're making it harder for NB's!" but that's not really the case. I'm pretty sure I can find some AVEN threads of the sort too, though they'll probably be a few years old.

[Guest]

So I thought a bit about the "getting annoyed" part (the original subject).

It's clearly not really about binary vs. non-binary, as has already been discussed. I know some binary trans people who get annoyed by open, vocal, binary trans people. I myself get a little annoyed at the attitude of non-binary people like in the video, being non-binary myself. And here's why.

It's about ignorance. On some level, we prefer there is no such broadcasting, no such spreading of awareness. Where there is ignorance, where people do not know about, haven't heard about, to some extent we get to determine the rules; we get to set the narrative. When stealth is desired, it is so easy to fly under the radar, because people see what they expect to see and they can never expect to see what they don't know about. When we come out to acquaintances, we make our own explanations, thereby having a good chance of getting to shape the persons views firsthand. It grants us a measure of control of how (if) other people see us, and how they treat us.

But you, and I, and my binary trans friends need to understand that while we may desire this, and we may hope for this, we have no right to demand or ask for this. What those other people are doing, obnoxious as they may be, they are playing the long game, win or lose. They are fighting for, instead of allowances and exceptions being made for us, a complete integration within society. They are fighting to change the rules of society that we are breaking by not conforming to gender assignments.

And this upsets us, because it takes away the control we could have through ignorance. If they play their cards right, we will likely not reap the true benefits of their victory. And if they screw it up, we all suffer the losses.

And yet we have no right to complain, as theirs is the ideologically correct path. They may cause us strife, but theirs is the only path that can permanently erase our collective dysphoria.

I don't agree that theirs is the correct path, but I do agree that no one can complain about vocal minorities.

I've had these same thoughts re being gay and I think what you've written here is very insightful and very accurate. I'd like to add a few points to it, if I may.

1. Bigotry vs. Differing Opinions. It's much easier to be a minority when you can, at least, point to opinions you don't like as being bigoted. You don't get that option when the information being relied on came from another member of your group. I know a lot of gay people who say a lot of dumb bullshit that doesn't reflect my feelings, experiences, etc, in the slightest, and that I feel contribute to the hatred against us. But I can't disregard them by being all pffftt, they're just homophobic. They're not. They just experience things differently than I do, and if people learn about their experiential perspective and not mine, they won't necessarily understand me, but they're also not being bigoted. That's surprisingly annoying when you're used to just saying "nah, that's not true, take it from me, I'm gay." Instead, we're faced with feeling isolated and misunderstood, but without any good redress.

2. This is why majorities sometimes feel resentment toward minorities. If I have to hear one more person say they wish they got to "come out" because they want all the attention and the right to dictate to people exactly how to think about them... arggg... it's a misunderstanding on their part, but they're not entirely wrong about the benefits of declaring oneself. If you're a cis, hetero man, you don't get to be personally understood in the same way many of us are. You've got to put up with people having incredibly wrong ideas about you just because of media, or bad previous interactions with straight men, or because someone's brothers were all violent so they think all straight men are violent... and it's really not socially acceptable for majority populations to whine about being misunderstood or, even more so, attempting to correct misunderstandings with formal pronouncements.

3. Majority populations significantly overestimate how much attention minority populations receive on an individual level. I've been out for 20 years, and I've always encouraged questions about my orientation, experience, etc. In twenty years, I can think of exactly two times anyone has shown even slight interest in my personal experience, and one of the two times was when my gay boy roommate asked me if "all lesbians giggle in bed or if it's just you."

Basically, I think we all wish we had control over the messages others receive about us, whether they be good or bad, accurate or inaccurate... I think we all overestimate how understood other people feel... and I think that calling things wrong, or bigoted, or transphobic, or erasing, or triggering, or anything indicative of a victim/perpetrator dynamic gives us a feeling of control over the message that we don't get when we simply agree to disagree.

[butterflydreams]

Hmm, Skulls, I like that.

There is a part of me that sees people saying stuff, like in this video, and goes, "ugh, fuuuuuck! These people are killing me! Shut up, shut up, shut up, you don't speak for me!"

And it's true, they don't, but other people watching won't get that. It's too much nuance.

Though I have to strongly disagree that these kinds of people are pushing for just integration and acceptance. They seem to pride themselves on being label _____ and get mad if you don't recognize them primarily as such. I won't find integration with society as a trans woman, nor do I want to, but if someone notices, "hey I know this woman, she really likes cars and knows all kinds of cool bike rides." Boom, that's integration. I'm more than a label, and I think people seeing that is where integration lies. The most accepted trans people I see are like this. They're just cool people, who happen to be trans. Everybody likes cool people, and once you like a cool person, are you really going to stop liking them because they're trans?

I dunno, that might just be a philosophical difference I have. As we've said, others can do what they want, and it's not my place or anyone else's to stop them. They can push for integration in whatever way they see fit, but I don't think it's fair to say that I don't want integration and acceptance just because I also want to fly under the radar.

[JAKQ7111]

I've seen the whole NB vs Trans fight many, many times wherein the NBs are all "you're reinforcing gender binary! You're making it harder for NB's!" but that's not really the case. I'm pretty sure I can find some AVEN threads of the sort too, though they'll probably be a few years old.

I've seen it enough times, and it often plays out the opposite way for NBs. We'll get binary people (both trans and cis), telling us that we are "making it up" or that our genders are not real, that we're just being trendy and postmodern. Honestly, I get that with many facets of my identity, and it hurts every time. That's why I so often come to the defense of other non-binary people, or other asexuals, or other bi/pan-spectrum people. Because I'm tired of people dismissing or trivializing our/my experiences by virtue of our invisibility.

Binary trans people do not reinforce the binary, nor are they out to get us non-binary people, and non-binary people are not a threat to binary trans people by nature of our very existence. Many, if not most people all across the trans spectrum agree with this, but enough don't that I often feel the need to say something.

[butterflydreams]

Binary trans people do not reinforce the binary, nor are they out to get us non-binary people, and non-binary people are not a threat to binary trans people by nature of our very existence. Many, if not most people all across the trans spectrum agree with this, but enough don't that I often feel the need to say something.

Thank you!

[binary suns]

nonbinary is much more of a statement of ideology than identity, when it boils down to it. it is a person looking at who they are and the culture around them and saying "wait, but I can be who I want, culture is just a construct". while a transgendered people? they look around at the culture, and look at themselves, and think, "why can't I ever be the person I want to be, culture is a prison"

You realize how belittling and dismissive you sound right now?! As if I can just CHOOSE to feel my severe dysphoria?! YOU DON'T THINK I KNOW YOUR PAIN?!?

SCREW THIS. ALL YOU SAY IS THAT I AS AN NB CAN NEVER KNOW YOUR PAIN. YOU DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT ME OR WHAT ANY OTHER NOBINARY PERSON GOES THROUGH, WHETHER WE HAVE DYSPHORIA OR NOT, SURPRISE, WE DO!

DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME THAT MY IDENTITY THAT HAS CAUSED ME JUST AS MUCH AGONY AND WISHING I WERE DEAD AS YOU IS A GODDAMN IDEOLOGY

I probably should have waited to post that post, as while I started off with a civil mind I quickly shifted to anger.

please understand, identity is a statement of experience, not the experience itself. Identity does not cause anything to anyone. what happens to us is our experience, and our identity is how we attempt to efficiently declare what our experience has been.

while it is true that I reject the nonbinary identity, I do not reject anyone's experience, and I do not dismiss anyone's experience. I intend only to be making declarations against the nonbinary model and ideology.

When considering the nonbinary model, all humans are nonbinary, regardless of their identity. the nonbinary model is an ideology stating that gender is not binary.

Please consider the model that existed since before nonbinary was popular:

- cisgender is a statement of sex along side gender identity. it is looking at the birth sex and assuming their gender is the same.

- transsexual is a statement of sex versus perceived sex. it is the person feeling that they don't belong in their birth sex. this necessarily involves at least mild gender dysphoria.

- transgender is a statement of gender identity versus cultural expectations regarding birth sex. this could exist without gender dysphoria, or with it.

in this model, nonbinary as an identity would be precisely synonymous with transgender.

(basically, cis is opposite to transgender, and transsexual is not dependent on either, but instead on gender dysphoria. gender dysphoria however does not always lead to transsexualism.)

The ideology of nonbinary is not only a rejection of the existence of both anyone cisgender and anyone transsexual, but also a rejection of gender dysphoria as anything except for an issue people need to work out as they learn to accept that gender is irrelevant to sex. All of this is a very offensive implication of the nonbinary model, and the very reason I reject nonbinary as anything other than ignorant.

I do find that transgender is a little bit too implicit of transexualism, in fact it seems in my previous post I even made that mistake of exchanging the words. a word should replace it, such as gender-queer. but, I reject nonbinary as a viable alternative, as the nonbinary ideology erases the very thing the nonbinary identity wants to represent.

[just an owl]

So I thought a bit about the "getting annoyed" part (the original subject).

It's clearly not really about binary vs. non-binary, as has already been discussed. I know some binary trans people who get annoyed by open, vocal, binary trans people. I myself get a little annoyed at the attitude of non-binary people like in the video, being non-binary myself. And here's why.

It's about ignorance. On some level, we prefer there is no such broadcasting, no such spreading of awareness. Where there is ignorance, where people do not know about, haven't heard about, to some extent we get to determine the rules; we get to set the narrative. When stealth is desired, it is so easy to fly under the radar, because people see what they expect to see and they can never expect to see what they don't know about. When we come out to acquaintances, we make our own explanations, thereby having a good chance of getting to shape the persons views firsthand. It grants us a measure of control of how (if) other people see us, and how they treat us.

But you, and I, and my binary trans friends need to understand that while we may desire this, and we may hope for this, we have no right to demand or ask for this. What those other people are doing, obnoxious as they may be, they are playing the long game, win or lose. They are fighting for, instead of allowances and exceptions being made for us, a complete integration within society. They are fighting to change the rules of society that we are breaking by not conforming to gender assignments.

And this upsets us, because it takes away the control we could have through ignorance. If they play their cards right, we will likely not reap the true benefits of their victory. And if they screw it up, we all suffer the losses.

And yet we have no right to complain, as theirs is the ideologically correct path. They may cause us strife, but theirs is the only path that can permanently erase our collective dysphoria.

I kinda disagree, but it's early and I can't write anything good up in response

But that last part - how will this erase our dysphoria? In what way will being accepted into society permanently rid of my dysphoria?

[Dodecahedron314]

nonbinary is much more of a statement of ideology than identity, when it boils down to it. it is a person looking at who they are and the culture around them and saying "wait, but I can be who I want, culture is just a construct". while a transgendered people? they look around at the culture, and look at themselves, and think, "why can't I ever be the person I want to be, culture is a prison"

You realize how belittling and dismissive you sound right now?! As if I can just CHOOSE to feel my severe dysphoria?! YOU DON'T THINK I KNOW YOUR PAIN?!?

SCREW THIS. ALL YOU SAY IS THAT I AS AN NB CAN NEVER KNOW YOUR PAIN. YOU DON'T KNOW A THING ABOUT ME OR WHAT ANY OTHER NOBINARY PERSON GOES THROUGH, WHETHER WE HAVE DYSPHORIA OR NOT, SURPRISE, WE DO!

DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME THAT MY IDENTITY THAT HAS CAUSED ME JUST AS MUCH AGONY AND WISHING I WERE DEAD AS YOU IS A GODDAMN IDEOLOGY

I probably should have waited to post that post, as while I started off with a civil mind I quickly shifted to anger.

please understand, identity is a statement of experience, not the experience itself. Identity does not cause anything to anyone. what happens to us is our experience, and our identity is how we attempt to efficiently declare what our experience has been.

while it is true that I reject the nonbinary identity, I do not reject anyone's experience, and I do not dismiss anyone's experience. I intend only to be making declarations against the nonbinary model and ideology.

When considering the nonbinary model, all humans are nonbinary, regardless of their identity. the nonbinary model is an ideology stating that gender is not binary.

Please consider the model that existed since before nonbinary was popular:

- cisgender is a statement of sex along side gender identity. it is looking at the birth sex and assuming their gender is the same.

- transsexual is a statement of sex versus perceived sex. it is the person feeling that they don't belong in their birth sex. this necessarily involves at least mild gender dysphoria.

- transgender is a statement of gender identity versus cultural expectations regarding birth sex. this could exist without gender dysphoria, or with it.

in this model, nonbinary as an identity would be precisely synonymous with transgender.

(basically, cis is opposite to transgender, and transsexual is not dependent on either, but instead on gender dysphoria. gender dysphoria however does not always lead to transsexualism.)

The ideology of nonbinary is not only a rejection of the existence of both anyone cisgender and anyone transsexual, but also a rejection of gender dysphoria as anything except for an issue people need to work out as they learn to accept that gender is irrelevant to sex. All of this is a very offensive implication of the nonbinary model, and the very reason I reject nonbinary as anything other than ignorant.

I do find that transgender is a little bit too implicit of transexualism, in fact it seems in my previous post I even made that mistake of exchanging the words. a word should replace it, such as gender-queer. but, I reject nonbinary as a viable alternative, as the nonbinary ideology erases the very thing the nonbinary identity wants to represent.

All right, I've been holding out on posting in this thread because I haven't had the spoons for it lately, but I can't deal with this anymore. I'm going to try very hard to make this as polite and non-ranty as possible, but please be forewarned that I might not be able to stop myself from going fire and brimstone on this.

You are, indeed, correct that gender is not binary. However, your statement in your first post that gender is absolutely tied to the ideas of male and female is both objectively false (maverique people whose genders have exactly zero relationship to masculinity or femininity but yet are definitely not neutral exist! I know there's at least one on AVEN, and kai could probably go into more detail about this better than I could because kai understands kais experiences better than I do) and in contradiction of this truth.

Nonbinary is NOT an "ideology". It's being neither exclusively male nor exclusively female. That's all there is to it. It's not a matter of it being "popular" or not--I'd like to point out that cultures all over the world have recognized nonbinary genders for thousands of years. It's not an ideology, it's a very well-documented REALITY for a not insignificant portion of the world's population, including the person on the other end of this keyboard.

Additionally, it appears to me as though you're implying that physical dysphoria only occurs in binary trans people, if it's somehow "rejected" by the existence of nonbinary people. Hello, dysphoric nonbinary person here! Would my dysphoria go away if I had the "opposite" physical characteristics to those I was born with? Nope! Still there! Still hurts! Still nonbinary! Does that mean that it doesn't work for other people, who might in fact get much-needed relief from their dysphoria by physically transitioning to the "opposite" sex? Nope! Their experience is just as valid and their reality is just as real as mine! It's almost like...people have different experiences of dysphoria because they're different genders and so it manifests and is alleviated in different ways?!? Shock and awe!

The concept of being nonbinary is "offensive"??? Not as offensive as effectively being told that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to your own personal experience that you have to live through day in and day out no matter how difficult society or other people's wrongheaded opinions or your own physical existence in a body that shouldn't be what it is makes it--because if identity is really, as you say, a "statement of experience", that's exactly what you're doing.

Sorry, it's been a rough few days gender-wise for me. I'm just so tired of not existing in the eyes of the vast majority of the world. Those eyes don't care about anything you say--if they see long hair and a noticeably convex chest, it's "she" for you, no ifs, ands, or buts, and the mouth that shares a face with those eyes doesn't even know how to say any other words but "he" and "she". This is why some nonbinary people are so vocal about who they are--because maybe if we shout loud enough, we won't be able to hear that voice and it won't be able to hurt us anymore. It doesn't work, but we have to try.

...that went a lot further than I expected. I'm just gonna go cry and watch Doctor Who now and pretend like my dysphoria hasn't been practically debilitating for the last few days. Peace out.

[Finn.]

I can kind of understand the criticism about the video. But most of it is just Ash's editing style and personality. You also shouldn't judge her that much based on this one video. You don't know her day to day life, you don't know her relationship with gender. (Same goes for Kaitlyn and Grace). I don't either and I watched at least Ash's videos for quite a while now. She always tries her best with how she phrases things, she's very diplomatic, she's one of the nicest and most open-minded people on youtube that I know about.

So many assumptions being made about "the" nonbinary existence, and our "ideology" without anyone actually asking us about it.

I believe gender exists on a spectrum, and that it's nox fixed for life, at least not for everybody. This doesn't mean I don't think binary genders exist, they are just as valid as any other gender. Nonbinary people are not better than binary people. That's it for my "ideology".

As I repeatedly said, we all just want respect and validation. Nonbinary people have to be more vocal about this usually, because in this binary world everybody just shoves us in one of the two boxes if we don't speak up. And that's what Kaitlyn's been saying too. They get misgendered all the time. And yes we are not saying it's your fault for not magically knowing how we want to be addressed, But it would also be nice to not just assume everybody's gender just like that. At least in English, people could try to use they pronouns more often. And as soon as you know how someone wants to be referred to, do it.

It's not like I take that much pride in a label. I usually don't even use any labels* to come out to people that are unfamiliar with lgbtq things, as I am afraid they will reject me just because of "eww, new unnecessary anglicism" and just not take me seriously (or even misgender me intentionally). I use these labels in the lgbtq community, just as a tool, as all words are essentially tools of communication. With others I just try to explain it in simpler terms. I say "I don't feel like either man or woman, I feel more neutral" and depending on the person I will also share that my gender is "not fixed", as in fluid. My "goal" is to not be put in a box, to be treated as me, a person. (And I think that's what the three people in the video were getting at too).

*only talking about gender labels here

[Emery.]

All or most non-binary genders in cultures are additional gender roles. Take Sworn Virgins. Physically a female. Performs roles done by men, has a men's job, doesn't marry, because it would be an obstacle, dresses like a man to mark belonging to this social class as is interacted with accordingly. Similarily two-spirit people. Job, clothing, who you marry. Non-binary gender identities in other cultures are largely about the job you do.

It's only here and now that it's about dysphoria, social and physical. That is statement of experience.

--okey never my bullcrap--

[Philip027]

There is a part of me that sees people saying stuff, like in this video, and goes, "ugh, fuuuuuck! These people are killing me! Shut up, shut up, shut up, you don't speak for me!"

And it's true, they don't, but other people watching won't get that. It's too much nuance.

You can't do anything about what "other people" will think. Neither can the people who made that video.

I mean, you probably already know that, but it kinda sounds like you're pinning blame on the party that can't do a damn thing about it.

[butterflydreams]

I can kind of understand the criticism about the video. But most of it is just Ash's editing style and personality. You also shouldn't judge her that much based on this one video. You don't know her day to day life, you don't know her relationship with gender. (Same goes for Kaitlyn and Grace). I don't either and I watched at least Ash's videos for quite a while now. She always tries her best with how she phrases things, she's very diplomatic, she's one of the nicest and most open-minded people on youtube that I know about.

Yeah, I'll concede she's not as bad as other people I've seen. I have seen a few other videos of hers (what I'm basing my "not that bad" judgement on).

So many assumptions being made about "the" nonbinary existence, and our "ideology" without anyone actually asking us about it.

Hopefully it's clear that I'm not suggesting that nonbinary is an ideology. Some people certainly see it that way, but I don't. You're all telling me you feel what you feel and I'm fine with that, obviously.

I believe gender exists on a spectrum, and that it's nox fixed for life, at least not for everybody. This doesn't mean I don't think binary genders exist, they are just as valid as any other gender. Nonbinary people are not better than binary people. That's it for my "ideology".

Exactly. I can definitely agree with this. It's a waste of effort to have NB people going after binary people and vice versa.

As I repeatedly said, we all just want respect and validation. Nonbinary people have to be more vocal about this usually, because in this binary world everybody just shoves us in one of the two boxes if we don't speak up. And that's what Kaitlyn's been saying too. They get misgendered all the time. And yes we are not saying it's your fault for not magically knowing how we want to be addressed, But it would also be nice to not just assume everybody's gender just like that. At least in English, people could try to use they pronouns more often. And as soon as you know how someone wants to be referred to, do it.

Maybe it's my inner cynic, but I don't see that ever happening on a large scale. People are always going to assume. It's just what they do. And especially with trans people numbering as small as we do, it's just never going to happen. And at least from what I've seen, out in the wider world (especially outside of academia), no one gives a shit. From that perspective, I try to handle myself the best I can. People are going to assume wrong. It's going to happen. What can I do to make myself more resilient to that? Again, this might just be the cynic in me, but that's my take.

[Finn.]

Oh, the ideology thing was not directed at you, Hadley. But it has been brought up in this discussion. And if you go by these standards, being gay would be an ideology as well (?). Homosexual propaganda, I guess. There's been a bit of campaigning against "gender mainstreaming" by right wing populists here in Germany, so I don't react so well to the ideology claim.

Well, maybe you are more cynical than me which is fair enough. I'm cautiously optimistic in that regard, as I believe we made great progress in little time so far.

I know my perspective is quite tumblr-centric (internet-centric). But nonetheless, tumblr is a huge community, with lots of young people that will grow up to shape the future society (I sounds so old rn). Lots of people gain awareness and knowledge about these things, more and more people know nonbinary people personally and that helps a lot too. Many people "try on" the nonbinary identity and even though they might go back to identifying as their assigned gender I can see an upside to that. How likely is it that someone who identified as non-cis for a while would be transphobic in the future? Right, quite unlikely.

I know that most people don't care and/or aren't knowledgable about these things. I'm not naive, my life doesn't allow me to be. I'm only out to a few people so I'm confronted with being misgendered all the time. I'm okayish with being perceived as a gnc and queer woman, I guess I have to be (but ugh, writing this feels very icky).

[Emery.]

--as before--

[binary suns]

binary means: relating to, composed of, or involving two things.

if you take a group of yellow blocks and blue blocks, and stack them randomly, the stack is binary. if you take yellow and blue floodlights, and mix their beams with different intensities to make all sorts of colors hit the screen, it is binary. even if you turn them both off and have no light. (technically, for humans color is a three system, but for dogs who only have yellow and blue photoreceptors, color is binary)

our genome is coded for two sexes, our bodies grow in the womb and during life based off of this genome, and gender is the cultural response to this binary existence of our biology.

the only way for gender not to be binary, is if it wasn't a response to biologic sex, which it is by definition, or if there was a third sex coded in our genome, which there isn't. the idea that gender is binary ignores the literal existence of humans as a species.

this has nothing to do with experience. nothing to do with expression. nothing to do with identity or personality. the word "nonbinary" cannot correctly be applied to human gender.

this is all. the word, it just doesn't work. it destroys language, it ignores genome.

if a person defines their personality ignoring the gender norms of culture, they don't have a nonbinary gender, they have a nongendered personality.

if a person experiences and identifies in response to an unusual mix of their culture's gender norms, they are still responding to a cultural response to a binary sex structure in our genomes. even if they prefer not to use the typical gender words, they are structuring their identity based off of cultural roles that are based on two sexes.

[JAKQ7111]

binary means: relating to, composed of, or involving two things.

if you take a group of yellow blocks and blue blocks, and stack them randomly, the stack is binary. if you take yellow and blue floodlights, and mix their beams with different intensities to make all sorts of colors hit the screen, it is binary. even if you turn them both off and have no light. (technically, for humans color is a three system, but for dogs who only have yellow and blue photoreceptors, color is binary)

our genome is coded for two sexes, our bodies grow in the womb and during life based off of this genome, and gender is the cultural response to this binary existence of our biology.

the only way for gender not to be binary, is if it wasn't a response to biologic sex, which it is by definition, or if there was a third sex coded in our genome, which there isn't. the idea that gender is binary ignores the literal existence of humans as a species.

this has nothing to do with experience. nothing to do with expression. nothing to do with identity or personality. the word "nonbinary" cannot correctly be applied to human gender.

this is all. the word, it just doesn't work. it destroys language, it ignores genome.

if a person defines their personality ignoring the gender norms of culture, they don't have a nonbinary gender, they have a nongendered personality.

if a person experiences and identifies in response to an unusual mix of their culture's gender norms, they are still responding to a cultural response to a binary sex structure in our genomes. even if they prefer not to use the typical gender words, they are structuring their identity based off of cultural roles that are based on two sexes.

I think that there is a miscommunication here as to what people mean when they say "the gender binary". When we in the trans and non-binary communities talk about the gender binary, we are talking about the socio-cultural construct that says that there is only Men and Women, and that those roles are set in stone and diametrically opposed to one another. We are talking about debunking the idea that all men are one way, and all women are another, or that what sex you are assigned at birth must dictate your identity, expression, and behavior.

You are trans yourself, yes? Then you must be familiar with the difference between sex and gender. Obviously, if you are transitioning, then you are aware that the sex and gender you are assigned at birth are not necessarily what is actually accurate to your gender identity. It's the same with non-binary people. Regardless of the sex or gender they are assigned, they see their gender, their internal sense of self as it relates to masculinity and femininity, as something separate and distinct from either of the binary choices our society likes to push. For me, personally, I feel I can't relate to most men or most women, and I see myself as something completely different, and that something shifts and slides around very wildly sometimes, but it's never Man and it's never Woman. I may look masculine on some days, but that does not make me a man, and I may look feminine other days, but that doesn't make me a woman. In fact, my most frequent presentation is something pretty close to the middle, with masculine clothing, feminine hair accessories, and full eye makeup.

Now, I know that there is a wide array of experiences and expressions within the two binary categories, but that is still largely different from my genderfluid experience. When I change my presentation, it is so that I can get my outside to match my inside, and that fluidity becomes obvious when I interact with the world, and my mannerisms appear different when I'm in different swings of my gender.

TL;DR: Yes, most non-binary people's reference points for their genders do relate back to our culture's binary gender structure, but the whole point of that is twofold. A: That's just how our language works, and we are bit by bit creating the language and vocabulary that we need to best relate our experiences to the rest of the world. B: The whole point of using the binary as a reference point is to point out that we do not fit under those two neatly-defined categories, and that we are something else entirely.

[butterflydreams]

For me, personally, I feel I can't relate to most men or most women, and I see myself as something completely different, and that something shifts and slides around very wildly sometimes, but it's never Man and it's never Woman. I may look masculine on some days, but that does not make me a man, and I may look feminine other days, but that doesn't make me a woman. In fact, my most frequent presentation is something pretty close to the middle, with masculine clothing, feminine hair accessories, and full eye makeup.

I think this is very fair, and it shares enough elements of my own experience that I think I actually understand where you're coming from. Thank you. Would it be ok for me to mentally file this under "this is a good example of what nonbinary identities can look like"?

And thank you everyone for keeping this discussion civil and informative. I almost posted this thread in hot box, but I'm glad that I didn't. I know this stuff can be a sensitive issue for many, and I really appreciate people jumping in. I certainly feel a lot better prepared to react to other videos like this one in a way that's a bit less threatened. I wish other binary trans people would make that effort. Of all the people who might give shit to non-binaries...it shouldn't be other trans people...christ.

[JAKQ7111]

For me, personally, I feel I can't relate to most men or most women, and I see myself as something completely different, and that something shifts and slides around very wildly sometimes, but it's never Man and it's never Woman. I may look masculine on some days, but that does not make me a man, and I may look feminine other days, but that doesn't make me a woman. In fact, my most frequent presentation is something pretty close to the middle, with masculine clothing, feminine hair accessories, and full eye makeup.

I think this is very fair, and it shares enough elements of my own experience that I think I actually understand where you're coming from. Thank you. Would it be ok for me to mentally file this under "this is a good example of what nonbinary identities can look like"?

And thank you everyone for keeping this discussion civil and informative. I almost posted this thread in hot box, but I'm glad that I didn't. I know this stuff can be a sensitive issue for many, and I really appreciate people jumping in. I certainly feel a lot better prepared to react to other videos like this one in a way that's a bit less threatened. I wish other binary trans people would make that effort. Of all the people who might give shit to non-binaries...it shouldn't be other trans people...christ.

You are very welcome! Yes, you can file that away as an example of what non-binary identities can look like. Obviously, I am speaking only about my own experience, but it is certainly an example of at least one way that someone can be NB.

Yeah, I am trying to keep my responses as civil as possible, both out of respect and courtesy, and also to make my arguments easier to listen to. I hate getting angry, and I find I get my point across better when I am calm, even if this is something that is very personal to me, and I am very sensitive about.

[Azazel]

I dunno, that might just be a philosophical difference I have. As we've said, others can do what they want, and it's not my place or anyone else's to stop them. They can push for integration in whatever way they see fit, but I don't think it's fair to say that I don't want integration and acceptance just because I also want to fly under the radar.

Well what I meant by integration is a more broad interpretation of the word. I meant not having to jump through flaming hoops to get one's name changed to one that is comfortable. I meant not having to have a licenced psychiatrists diagnose you with a mental disorder from the DSM instead of it being treated as any other physical defect. I meant not having to worry about legal repercussions when going into a public bathroom. Yes, these are all political reform, but political reform only happens for one of two reasons; financial interest or social reform. And since many of us aren't the richest in the world, there must be social reform. And for that, widespread awareness is a must.

In my home country, there are laws to change your name, there are laws to change your sex. They are total bullfrap. But from a politician's standpoint, it's done, problem solved, wash my hands of this. How will anyone take a closer look at these laws if nobody talks about the issues? If the voters at large don't recognise trans people, and nonbinary people, as people whose interests in certain legislation matter? If people don't care what happens to us on a larger scale? That means spreading a message. Making voices heard. And it's nobody's duty to participate, but one can't go and say "how dare you try to ask society to think about us".

But that last part - how will this erase our dysphoria? In what way will being accepted into society permanently rid of my dysphoria?

In the sense that dysphoria is a disease, for which there are known treatments. If these treatments become readily available and easily accessible, it will no longer dominate our lives. Kind of like how it used to be that people with HIV had pretty much their whole life turned upside down, but thanks to advances in medicine they will now be able to just get on with there lives. That advancement would not have come without people caring what happens to people with HIV.

[just an owl]

In the sense that dysphoria is a disease, for which there are known treatments. If these treatments become readily available and easily accessible, it will no longer dominate our lives. Kind of like how it used to be that people with HIV had pretty much their whole life turned upside down, but thanks to advances in medicine they will now be able to just get on with there lives. That advancement would not have come without people caring what happens to people with HIV.

I just don't think permanently is the right word. There's still going to be delays in getting treatment (even if I could get access to HRT right now, I wouldn't just be able to because I'm not entirely out to everyone), there's still waiting lists - the process of getting treatment isn't actually that bad in the UK except that most GICs have a list of over a year, surgeries in particular (the most popular surgeons for top surgery here have waiting lists of 8-10 months I think?)..

and I don't think my dysphoria will ever go away. Get better, sure. But there are things hormones and surgery can't change, and nothing can fix that.

[Azazel]

Oh, sorry to hear that. I heard about how it works in the UK, yeah I didn't take a system like that into account.

[PurveyorOfBadPuns]

I feel like people like this feel like gender is much more exciting than it actually is, to be honest. It's not some inner deep sense of your whole self, it's simply where you fit on this societal spectrum of expected behaviors. You can be somewhere between male and female or you can be neither, but it really isn't any more complicated than that. Everything else is just your general identity, not your gender identity.

[Finn.]

I feel like people like this feel like gender is much more exciting than it actually is, to be honest. It's not some inner deep sense of your whole self, it's simply where you fit on this societal spectrum of expected behaviors. You can be somewhere between male and female or you can be neither, but it really isn't any more complicated than that. Everything else is just your general identity, not your gender identity.

I mean, to each their own opinion. But I'm a bit cofused how this fits the "genderqueer" in your description. Aren't you talking about gender nonconformity then?