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The trouble with pronouns


RoseGoesToYale

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RoseGoesToYale

This is more of a rant, I suppose. So, contrary to what my profile says, I'm not actually Borg. :P For as long as I can remember, I've identified my gender as female. I wasn't really raised to be any particular gender, but my sex is female and I wound up identifying as female. But there's something that's been bothering me for many years, and I don't know why.

Whenever I hear someone refer to me with "she" or "her", it just... bothers me. Every time I hear them, they just make make me feel kind of awful. It's the same feeling I get when I hear my first name (I don't like my first name). For some reason, I would much rather be called "he" or "they". But... I wear dresses, have long hair, and wear sparse makeup. Society would say I look female, and I feel kind of guilty saying I would rather be referred to as "he" or "they" because I still do identify as female.

Inside... I don't feel like gender is really there. I chose certain styles of dress and activities without regard for any gendered-ness attached to them. When someone asks what my gender is, "female" is just the pre-programmed response. For some reason though the female pronouns just don't feel like me.

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Well, I don't know who came up with genered pronouns, tbh... I'm not for this invention either. Like, what important info does it carry?

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Salted Karamel

Well, I don't know who came up with genered pronouns, tbh... I'm not for this invention either. Like, what important info does it carry?

I assume when the English language (and others that use gendered pronouns) was being developed in a very gendered world, it served the purpose of indicating the status and general role of the person in question. Mentioning that you had a daughter had much different connotations than mentioning that you had a son, for example—one was a bartering tool, and the other carried on your family name and served as an available laborer.

I think it kind of ties in to the same reason why the language makes (or made) the distinction between Miss and Mrs.: to indicate if a woman was available to be courted or not. No one cared about that info regarding men. At least, men didn't care about that info regarding other men. But the distinction between being a woman being married or not made a huge difference in her social standing, and also whether or not she was available to be married. [Edit 9/18: whoops, I think some words had previously gotten deleted from this paragraph and made word salad of the whole thing.]

In either case, I think we've outgrown the distinction. Now gendered pronouns only serve the purpose of signaling to others whether or not we belong to an oppressed group, which might be part of the reason why you hate it.

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I think it requires distinction whether someone is frustrated with "she"s because of the general gender roles etc, or because you have trouble with belonging into the category in the first place. Either way, quite understandable.

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Luftschlosseule

Because somehow it seemed more useful. In ancient Sumerian you only distinguish between persons and objects, not between genders.

Curiously, in Akkadian you have gender, although they copied lots of Sumerian.

And then you have Latin, where people don't count and you decline even names to fit better in the sentences.

You can learn a lot about a culture by looking at the main languages.

While modern languages are not old in years, they have witnessed lots of change while not changing themselves as quick as the society that used them.

So I hope, too, that changes are coming.

Ugh, now I have a picture in my mind of white ravens sending messages to everybody that they have to use a new gender-language-system.

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Now gendered pronouns only serve the purpose of signaling to others whether or not we belong to an oppressed group, which might be part of the reason why you hate it.

Are you fucking kidding me? You think I don't get bullcrap just because I'm male? Given my preference for presenting effeminately, I'd be much better off being female, so don't try to suggest that being male means you get complete preferential treatment. IT DOES NOT.

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EmotionalAndroid

Inside... I don't feel like gender is really there. I chose certain styles of dress and activities without regard for any gendered-ness attached to them. When someone asks what my gender is, "female" is just the pre-programmed response. For some reason though the female pronouns just don't feel like me.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't really understand why gender even exists and why people are expected to have the same gender as their given sex. Why should we act a certain way and be expected to like certain things based on our biological sex at birth (something we have no control over)? It's all really confusing. People should just be how they want to be. It doesn't matter.

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Salted Karamel

Because somehow it seemed more useful. In ancient Sumerian you only distinguish between persons and objects, not between genders.

Curiously, in Akkadian you have gender, although they copied lots of Sumerian.

And then you have Latin, where people don't count and you decline even names to fit better in the sentences.

You can learn a lot about a culture by looking at the main languages.

While modern languages are not old in years, they have witnessed lots of change while not changing themselves as quick as the society that used them.

So I hope, too, that changes are coming.

Ugh, now I have a picture in my mind of white ravens sending messages to everybody that they have to use a new gender-language-system.

Latin definitely has extremely gendered language, though. Like, even the words for inanimate objects like "house" and "pen" are gendered.

And then of course Latin regionally morphed into Spanish, Italian, Portugese, French, and Romanian and I believe all five of those Romance languages inherited gendered nouns from Latin.

Now gendered pronouns only serve the purpose of signaling to others whether or not we belong to an oppressed group, which might be part of the reason why you hate it.

Are you fucking kidding me? You think I don't get bullcrap just because I'm male? Given my preference for presenting effeminately, I'd be much better off being female, so don't try to suggest that being male means you get complete preferential treatment. IT DOES NOT.

Whoa dude, take a step back and try to find the part where I said or implied that. Then try a little exercise where you pretend we were talking about a different demographic, like race or sexuality, and switch the appropriate words with things like "black" and "white" and "gay" and "straight" and see if your reaction doesn't sound ridiculous to you.

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Inside... I don't feel like gender is really there. I chose certain styles of dress and activities without regard for any gendered-ness attached to them. When someone asks what my gender is, "female" is just the pre-programmed response. For some reason though the female pronouns just don't feel like me.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't really understand why gender even exists and why people are expected to have the same gender as their given sex. Why should we act a certain way and be expected to like certain things based on our biological sex at birth (something we have no control over)? It's all really confusing. People should just be how they want to be. It doesn't matter.

Well that stuff that you're talking about is about sex roles, not gender. But yes it is all complete crap regardless!

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Now gendered pronouns only serve the purpose of signaling to others whether or not we belong to an oppressed group, which might be part of the reason why you hate it.

Are you fucking kidding me? You think I don't get bullcrap just because I'm male? Given my preference for presenting effeminately, I'd be much better off being female, so don't try to suggest that being male means you get complete preferential treatment. IT DOES NOT.

Whoa dude, take a step back and try to find the part where I said or implied that. Then try a little exercise where you pretend we were talking about a different demographic, like race or sexuality, and switch the appropriate words with things like "black" and "white" and "gay" and "straight" and see if your reaction doesn't sound ridiculous to you.

You were very clearly implying that females are an "oppressed group", whereas males are not, hence the "whether or not you belong to an oppressed group". Females being the "oppressed" option, and males being the "not oppressed" option. This is just untrue in so many ways. And yeah, maybe I did overreact, but that's what happens when people even vaguely imply that males are automatically priviledged. I've had a shit time being male, so I get annoyed when people automatically think I have it easier than my female counterparts, just because I happened to be born into a certain body type.

And black people are not oppressed. At least not in modern, civilized society. Gay people are oppressed, under certain circumstances, but that is an entirely different situation, since well, they are actually oppressed, unlike women. If women really were oppressed, Hillary Clinton wouldn't be "allowed" to run for president of the US. Not only that, but no one would support her.

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We have a male privilege denier in the house...

Nobody is saying you have it easy BECAUSE you're a guy, just that your life isn't hard BECAUSE you're a guy.

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And black people are not oppressed.

Wow. You don't get out much, do you.

Black people have every single right white people have. Where is the oppression?

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We have a male privilege denier in the house...

Nobody is saying you have it easy BECAUSE you're a guy, just that your life isn't hard BECAUSE you're a guy.

I'm not denying male priviledge. But female priviledge makes being male or female no worse than the other. Just look at how males get much harsher sentences for the same crime, or how male rape/abuse victims get laughed at and humiliated, and their abusers unpunished.

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And black people are not oppressed.

Wow. You don't get out much, do you.

Black people have every single right white people have. Where is the oppression?

How about the right to not be killed at a routine traffic stop?

Stop feigning ignorance and acting like oppression is so black and white (pardon the pun)

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Female privilege?

LOLWUT

Maybe you should go befriend Contrarian Expatriate so you two can have an echo chamber about "gynocentrism" and "male oppression"

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Female privilege?

LOLWUT

Maybe you should go befriend Contrarian Expatriate so you two can have an echo chamber about "gynocentrism" and "male oppression"

I like how you don't even refute my examples of female priviledge, and instead take a direct jab at me.

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How about the right to not be killed at a routine traffic stop?

Also, that doesn't happen in modern society. I live in modern society, so this doesn't apply to me.

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Female privilege?

LOLWUT

Maybe you should go befriend Contrarian Expatriate so you two can have an echo chamber about "gynocentrism" and "male oppression"

I like how you don't even refute my examples of female priviledge, and instead take a direct jab at me.

Alright I'll bite:

Getting lesser sentences- NOT female privilege because the implication is that women are too delicate to handle harsh sentences, and need to be protected. It's inherently misogynistic.

Male rape victims- In case you haven't noticed, hardly ANY rapists get prosecuted, REGARDLESS of victim's gender. Do you seriously think female rape is taken more seriously? Female victims might get more exposure but at the end of the day, only 4% of rapists are ever convicted. I'd wager the gender ration of victims who successfully prosecuted their rapist are equally low.

Recognizing male domestic violence as an issue is definitely necessary, but how does that relate to female privilege? Women have the privilege of people listening about their abuse? Still goes back to women being inherently fragile and in need of protection. If women were regarded as true equals to men, then they'd get the exact same shrug that most men get. Which is awful, of course, but privilege it isn't.

"Positive discrimination/stereotyping" is still discrimination/stereotyping.

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Female privilege?

LOLWUT

Maybe you should go befriend Contrarian Expatriate so you two can have an echo chamber about "gynocentrism" and "male oppression"

I like how you don't even refute my examples of female priviledge, and instead take a direct jab at me.

Alright I'll bite:

Getting lesser sentences- NOT female privilege because the implication is that women are too delicate to handle harsh sentences, and need to be protected. It's inherently misogynistic.

Male rape victims- In case you haven't noticed, hardly ANY rapists get prosecuted, REGARDLESS of victim's gender. Do you seriously think female rape is taken more seriously? Female victims might get more exposure but at the end of the day, only 4% of rapists are ever convicted. I'd wager the gender ration of victims who successfully prosecuted their rapist are equally low.

Recognizing male domestic violence as an issue is definitely necessary, but how does that relate to female privilege? Women have the privilege of people listening about their abuse? Still goes back to women being inherently fragile and in need of protection. If women were regarded as true equals to men, then they'd get the exact same shrug that most men get. Which is awful, of course, but privilege it isn't.

"Positive discrimination/stereotyping" is still discrimination/stereotyping.

With the rape, the reason so many rape cases never work in favour of the supposed victim is because not only are a lot of rape allegations false, but it is also exceedingly difficult to prove. But since a lot of people seem to believe men literally cannot be raped, they are more likely not to be taken seriously.

As with the other two points, I think the issue is less 'being seen as weaker', but more 'seeing being seen as weaker as a bad thing'. I mean, sure it's an outdated notion that females need protecting by males, but it still works in female's favour a lot of the time. Stronger is not better, not when people are more likely to nurture the weak. When you're male, you're more likely to be expected to deal with your own issues. Coming out about your issues only receives humiliation. Another thing that came to mind is the amount of female shelters, and lack of male ones. No one wants to help males. If you're male, you're seen as less important, and in less need of protection.

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I think we can agree that being seen as feminine = being seen as weaker in society, and that connotation needs to die.

Overall though, that perception is caused by femininity being viewed as lesser, regardless of gender.

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Discussions about privilege and oppression belong in the Politics, Philosophy and Science forum, or the Intersectionality forum. Please keep this topic to gender. Specifically, this thread is about pronouns and their relation to gender identity. Please stay on topic and make a new thread in an appropriate sub forum for other topics.

Heart

Gender Discussion Moderator

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Thanks Heart! I really enjoyed the original topic of this thread and appreicate it getting back on track. :)

Anyway, I find the idea of someone who identifies as the sex they were born with disliking gendered language pretty fascinating, because I feel kind of the same way myself. "She" and "her" pronouns don't bother me (though at the same time, I don't mind "they" or "he" either), but I feel really awkward when someone calls me a woman. Female is okay, and but woman just grinds my gears, and I have no idea why.

For me, I don't think it's worth trying to tell people not to refer to me with the word woman, because I'm lazy and it doesn't seem worth the hassle. But I do kind of inwardly cringe every time it happens

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I'm not annoyed by being called a woman, but "she" (and the gednder divide of pronouns) just makes no sense to me. Probably because when I see my reflection in the idea of a woman, I don't see it in the idea that men and women are essentially different kinds of people, persons. Fashion, rearing kids, all that stuff. I don't know. I may not be a generic girl, but the specific taste of life, belonging, moments of happiness, and the moments I want to scream and ask God why. Have you watches Pedro Almodovar's films? This. All this mundane stuff. Passion and not the femininity of an "ideal woman", but that of a woman made of flesh and blood. But "she"? What is a "she"? I don't know. For me being a woman is very flesh and blood, and therefore far from the mind. And we want to refer to the mind if we are referring to the person. I hope. At least that's my understanding, and maybe the first intent was flesh. Or maybe I'm lacking something that others feel.

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RoseGoesToYale

Well, I don't know who came up with genered pronouns, tbh... I'm not for this invention either. Like, what important info does it carry?

I guess back in history it made sense to have words distinguishing between biological sex... but even then there are languages with no gender distinction in 3rd person whatsoever. Turkish, Finnish, Hungarian, Tagalog and Farsi, to name a few. If gender is pertinent, you could say "___ is a woman/man/person/job title/etc." or just use the person's name.

I feel like the struggle must harder for speakers of languages with more rigid grammatical gender. I.e. Russian, where words describing yourself or others have to have gender, like 'studyent' vs 'studyentka', plus patronymics and last name endings. What do you do if you identify as trans or non-binary? (if there are any Russian native speakers, or any speakers of grammatically-gendered languages, I'd love to hear your perspectives on this)

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Thanks Heart! I really enjoyed the original topic of this thread and appreicate it getting back on track. :)

Anyway, I find the idea of someone who identifies as the sex they were born with disliking gendered language pretty fascinating, because I feel kind of the same way myself. "She" and "her" pronouns don't bother me (though at the same time, I don't mind "they" or "he" either), but I feel really awkward when someone calls me a woman. Female is okay, and but woman just grinds my gears, and I have no idea why.

For me, I don't think it's worth trying to tell people not to refer to me with the word woman, because I'm lazy and it doesn't seem worth the hassle. But I do kind of inwardly cringe every time it happens

You know, that's interesting. I feel exactly the opposite; I hate being referred to as a girl or boy. Woman or man, or bust. Maybe it's because genderfluid people still have a bit of a stigma going on of being "just confused" or "just a phase", or even "pick one already". But boy and girl feel a little dismissive to me, almost infantile. Being called a woman while I'm not a woman isn't too bad, but being called a girl? Internal flinch every time, and that bad taste in my brain will linger for hours sometimes. It's one of my biggest social dysphoria triggers.

I guess I'm almost an inverse of RoseGoesToYale in a way; pronouns don't bother me. But words like girl do. It's really interesting how different dysphoria can present in different people. It's also interesting that cis people can feel bits of dysphoria too (I don't know if Rose is comfortable with "cis" or not, I just realised you didn't use that word in your OP... so, speaking of words hurting, apologies if that's not a word you associate with :cake: )

Well, I don't know who came up with genered pronouns, tbh... I'm not for this invention either. Like, what important info does it carry?

I guess back in history it made sense to have words distinguishing between biological sex... but even then there are languages with no gender distinction in 3rd person whatsoever. Turkish, Finnish, Hungarian, Tagalog and Farsi, to name a few. If gender is pertinent, you could say "___ is a woman/man/person/job title/etc." or just use the person's name.

I feel like the struggle must harder for speakers of languages with more rigid grammatical gender. I.e. Russian, where words describing yourself or others have to have gender, like 'studyent' vs 'studyentka', plus patronymics and last name endings. What do you do if you identify as trans or non-binary? (if there are any Russian native speakers, or any speakers of grammatically-gendered languages, I'd love to hear your perspectives on this)

French sucks in that respect. I have never figured out how to be perfectly comfortable telling people even the simplest things about myself like what my job is. Sure, I can use the masculine job name like "etudiant" instead of the feminine "etudiante", and technically there's a connotation of masculine being the "default" so I guess slightly more neutral than the feminine... but I'm still pretty clearly AFAB. And not a native French speaker, so I retain somewhat of an accent. And it doesn't help that my French is Canadian French, and I'm in France right now, so I kinda have a "double" accent; I have a French-Canadian accent layered over an English-speaker accent. So most people just assume I don't know what I'm saying, and automatically correct me :( I've just mostly given up and I use whatever gendered version I want when referring to myself, and they can mentally correct me if they want or explain it away however they want. I no longer care, I'm too chill in that respect right now. Bigger battles to fight and all ;)

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My mother tongue is a mess in this respect. We have gender in first person verbs (particularily painful, some forms only), many verb forms in general, all nouns, third person pronouns, adjectives... But masculine is the default form, so it's not out of place to use them (unless in first person), so I use e.g. feminine first person stuff (it would be awkward if I used masculine first person), but I say I'm a student and so on, without the feminine ending, and it's widely used, particularily by women with feminist views :P Yeah.. Last name endings... Not so bad. Also, it requires some mental gymnastics, but it's possible to avoid the first person endings, which I've been doing for many years already.

*edited for the sake of accuracy and clarity

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I'm used to the german she pronouns and kind of just ignore my dysphoria about it which is usually mild anyway. If I get referred to as "she" lots of times on one day my dysphoria increases proportionally.

There are no "official" genderneutral german pronouns and all the ones I read about seem silly to me. It pronouns aren't socially accepted here except for a few dialects.

Oh! One interesting fact though about this. I'm originally from a small federal state which has it's own dialect. And due to this dialect girls are called it pronouns which usually is a no go in german because it has a degrading connotation. I left that state three years ago and thus switched to "High/Standard German" and people started referring to me as "she". And the dysphoria began. I didn't have dysphoria about "it" pronouns.

I prefer male gendered terms over female ones. I usually use them for myself too, as they are also the default or neutral option. Sometimes it would seem weird to use the male gendered words though, for example when I would call my self (male) colleague. Or even referring to myself as the child instead of daughter of my parents would sound weird.

Or as in professions. I'm nearly done training for being an occupational therapist, called "Ergotherapeut". Our school is also teaching physical therapists called "Physiotherapeuten", and usually we just say "Ergo" or "Physio", so I would introduce myself as being an "Ergo" which is totally genderneutral. But now that I will work with kindergarten teachers I will have to say occupational therapist again. I would choose the male version but people would notice and think it's weird. And my name tag will probably say "Ergotherapeutin" (female) too. I'm frustrated already. Gendered language is frustrating and unnecessary. But I'm lucky that german verbs aren't gendered.

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In here everyone would be "Ergotherapeut", even though my language seems much more gendered than German. The feminine forms often sound clumsy, so many people dislike them and don't use them for the sake of the recepient's ears :P

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