Sex-Positive culture: how does it affect you?

[Flyin'Solo]

I'm just wondering how sex-positivity affects people who are asexual.

I'm asking because many of my friends are queer people (very confined to their own exclusive-queer circle, usually) who thrive on sex-positive culture. Seemingly this is a very liberating way to live life, but in my own personal experience it has a way of making me feel shitty.

For those who don't quite know what I'm talking about, sex-positivity is discussed by wikipedia as such: "some people use the term sex-positive to describe an attitude towards human sexual behavior that regards sexual activities as fundamentally healthy and pleasurable, and encourages sexual pleasure and experimentation. "

So it's like breaking free of the things your strict catholic parents taught you when you were a kid: it's okay to masturbate, you shouldn't be ashamed of your sexual desires, it's okay to be sexually expressive in any way as long as it's consentual, please talk openly about genetalia, etc.

On paper it seems like a good thing, but sex-positive culture-- or really, the way that it is used by probably everyone I know-- makes me feel ashamed that i don't like sex. I feel like there is something wrong with me for not wanting to have casual sexual relationships all the time. I feel like there is something wrong with me for not wanting to talk about sex all the time.

Is anyone else in a similar situation? How do other asexuals experience sex-positive culture?

[Shoes]

Yes and no. Sometimes, sure, I'll be getting berated by some `liberated' friends "So, how many times did you beat off yesterday? Word is you didn't even leave the house.. must've been a marathon!" or "Hey, you still haven't shared your porn collection.. how raunchy can it be?" I tend to answer "if you only knew" and such because it amuses me, but I still feel slightly ill at ease.

On the whole, though, I applaud it. I don't mind talking about sex or genitalia, I just don't have any urge myself. Most of my friends realize - whether I had to tell them openly or not - that I'm not into casual sex, but don't for all that mind others doing it. So, they tend to leave me alone on that front.

And.. for what it's worth, some of them seem to be at their happiest when they're talking about sex. So I humour them. It brings me pleasure to see them laughing that loudly, so I would have to say that the sex-positive culture affects me in a positive way overall.

[Eta Carinae]

On one hand, I agree with the sex positive movement on some basic things: there's nothing wrong with sex, or with liking sex, or with casual sex.

On the other hand, I don't trust the movement at all. Many, many people in it don't really mean it when they say that they want people to have social sexual freedom. What they mean is that they want social freedom for the kinky, for the promisicuous, for the sexually active, for those with normal to high sex drives. Asexuals, celibates, vanilla people, people who have low sex drives are often outright denigrated. That's not just my perception; I've had a sex positive woman agree that the pro-sex people are often pretty down on nonsexuality.

A few examples that I can think of:

See this collection of letters on Salon.com (link). See all those sex positive sex columnists who, when confronted with someone who doesn't want to try anal or some other activity (though it's usually anal, for some reason), tell the person to get over their hangups and try it. See Dan Savage, who says that oral sex should come standard with a partner, and to immediately dump anyone who won't do it. See Betty Dobson, who uses "sexually uncurious" as an insult and has berated a female writer for not being sexually active as a teenager. See the one sex positive writer I encountered (whose name and site I can't remember, and I can't find the link right now) who called asexual women "terrible." See the sex positive man writing years ago in Scarlet Letters (a sex positive web magazine), suggesting a national holiday of virginity losing, after which all the people who lost their virginity would no longer be children, but adults. (He was joking about the holiday, but not the virginity=adulthood part.) See Susie Bright, who has written that -- for everyone -- most the joy of dancing and singing comes from sexuality, and that one can't truly be able to relate to people outside one's family until one has had sex. Granted, these things she has said are not a denigration of nonsexuality per se, but certainly indicate that her worldview has no room for people that aren't highly sexual. (Edited to add: take also this guy -- link here -- who complains of a resurgance in "asexuality and repression.")

I brought this up once, a long time ago, and suggested that asexuals be wary of the sex positive movement. AVENguy replied and said that oh, no, sex positive people just want everyone to be comfortable with their own sexuality. I thought it was blinkered nonsense then, and I've become more convinced of this over the years.

[feef]

Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable some of the time when my friends are on about this or that, because I makes me hyperaware of how different I am from them, but it's a small price for liberty.

I don't agree with the really extreme views about sex-positive thinking though. Like, a couple of people are having troubles in marriage, and some counseller/psych will say "Oh, well, how often do you have sex? Well that's the problem, you have to have more sex." Guilt tripping people for not being hypersexual is wrong, just as guilt tripping asexuals is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

[starrysky]

How do other asexuals experience sex-positive culture?

It's better than the sex-negative alternative. Growing up, I was never taught anything about sex except that it's for married grown-ups only and apparently so naughty that it could not even be discussed. Even if I wasn't doing it, it was dirty just to watch it on TV in soap operas and movies and I was made to feel like I was doing something wrong. I don't think any amount of sex-positive culture attitude will get rid of that deep down feeling.

There are many sexuals who don't want to have casual sexual relationships or talk about sex all the time... it's not that they were taught sex was negative and they're ashamed, they just don't want to discuss private things publicly (maybe out of respect for their partner).

[cait]

I find it does tend to make some people believe that sex is god and, all it takes is "amazing sex" to feel the same way. I have friends who can't understand me because of what they are exposed to (minus me, since my opinions don't seem to count).

News flash. I don't need 'amazing sex' to lead a healthy happy life. Strange that these friends who love casual sex have such a difficult time forming long-lasting intimate honest relationships. And the only relationships I can have are long-lasting intimate ones. Hmm. What does this say about the greatness of casual sex...

[Xenon]

I really haven't been exposed to "sex-positive" anything except very occasionally in the media. I am thinking it's because I live in Canada... :D

[Wineblood]

Sex-positive ?? Sounds like "sex-obsessive" to me.

[sonofzeal]

I really haven't been exposed to "sex-positive" anything except very occasionally in the media. I am thinking it's because I live in Canada... :D

Actually, I've found Canada to be even more sex-positive than the states, in Ontario at least. I'd say my area's more sexually liberated than most places south of the border, at least.

About a month before I found out my Significant Other was asexual, I was reading an advice columnist who basically was arguing that not getting enough action in bed is sufficient grounds for committing adultery, that if they won't put out then it's your right to get your action elsewhere. And one of my friends, upon hearing that my SO was asexual, said that the best alternative would be to go for an "open relationship", which is basically just adultery plus permission.

I think things are improving though - the novelty of sexual liberation is wearing off, and "not interested" is starting to get accepted without the assumption that the person's either attached or part of some freaky fundamentalist group.

[Nakama]

I can agree with the basic idea that it's a good thing to be open and not ashamed of sex, because, as a fact, most people are sexual and sex is a natural part of their world. It makes sense, from that point of view, to see it as something positive that brings pleasure to life.

That said, all I wish for is that sexuals would realize that there are people like us who simply aren't interested. And that it's fully possible to have a good life without sex, and without being guilted into feeling ashamed for simply not being into it.

[KAGU143]

I would have more respect for it if it were brutally honest and simply called itself the "Required Promiscuity" culture.

-Greybird

[Belletrist]

This whole "sex-positivity" culture makes it all that much harder for asexuals to come out. Why is it that in our sexually "enlightened" culture, homosexuals and bisexuals are finding the courage to come out, and asexuals are being put down, laughed at, and sent to psychiatrists' offices to examine what trauma they must have suffered to be "repressed?"

It's not asexuals who are suffering, either. A friend of mine, who is celibate, recently had his girlfriend break up with him because he refused to consummate their relationship sexually until they were married. This seems to go with the logic that now it is important to take one's partner for a "test drive" before marriage.

[KidKash]

I really hope that I understand the term, sex positive. From my perspective, I believe that the more sex-positive our culture becomes the better it will ultimately become for asexuals. At this point, we have become a very vanilla or bland hetero-centric society. Hopefully, attitudes toward different kinds of sexual activity, or a lack thereof, will become more relaxed.

[Steeple333]

Being open with your doctor, theapist and children about sex (the latter for their safety and understanding) is all well and good but the promiscuity, such as insisting for any kind of sex before marriage for casual relationships makes me wanna cry. I mean, if I heard someone say "Yeah, s/he wouldn't give me a blowjob, so I dumped them", I would be horrified.

Now, I know I'm a prude. Whatever. I just think some things shouldn't be said in public. Like when my friend talks about how much porn she has on her computer on the BART train. :oops: Fortunately, the guy she was telling was also like :shock: .

Anyway, I don't think sex should be the be-all, end-all of existance, relationships, and adulthood. You can do/be those things without sex.

[Cerberus]

I have mixed response to it. On one hand, I think people should be honest about their sex and sexuality instead of pretending that everyone is heterosexual, vanilla couples who have sex only for procreation. I think that honesty keeps things from being buried or hidden and forces us to deal with things as they are rather than how they are pretending to be.

I also like how it has been used to remove the burden on homosexuals and bisexuals and allows them to explore themselves rather than chaining them to lives they don't want because the "majority" believe they should playact for the "good of the community."

On the other hand, hypersexuality and some sex-positivism pisses me off a lot sometimes. Especially when sex becomes the alpha and omega. Your relationship breaking apart? Have more sex. You're feeling depressed? Have more sex. The sun came up this morning? Have more sex. Sex is not some mystical cure-all and can be very dangerous to an individual if taken to lightly.

On the same unpleasant note, I am sick and tired of some sex-positive and hypersexual people who try and spread the message that there is no love, only sex and that love requires sex and lust. It is patently false and makes us as invisible as homosexuals used to be. It is turning the asexual of the past (oh, he must want to be a priest) into a paradox, a cannot-be, because some dim-minded people can't imagine a world without sex even though they must have some moment when they go "no, I don't feel in the mood today."

So, mixed feelings. It's good/bad like everything else in the world.

[Eta Carinae]

I really hope that I understand the term, sex positive. From my perspective, I believe that the more sex-positive our culture becomes the better it will ultimately become for asexuals. At this point, we have become a very vanilla or bland hetero-centric society. Hopefully, attitudes toward different kinds of sexual activity, or a lack thereof, will become more relaxed.

Unfortunately, acceptance of homosexuals and kinky people does not automatically equate to acceptance of celibates, asexuals, and the like. My experience with the sex positive movement has been that while some people are geniunely accepting of all sexualities, many many others treat asexuals as badly -- and often worse -- as your typical person. When one of the founders of the movement is outright making fun of people who aren't sexually active as teens, and another can't conceive that not everyone has sex as their own personal axis mundi, that's a movement that asexuals ought to be very wary of.

[Hallucigenia]

The key is to realize that sex-positivity (as described above) and sex-negativity ("OMG IT IS DIRTY AND BAD!11") are not the only two options. How about sex-neutrality and sex-openness?

I.e. "Here is this thing called sex that many people have a desire to do. Here is how it works. Here are some of the reasons people do it. Here are some of the results it can have. Here are some ways to control the results if you do it. Here are some people you can talk to if you want any more information about any of this. Now go and do whatever you want (within the limits of legality and respect for other people) with this information - including nothing, if you prefer."

I.e. neither the glorification nor the demonization nor the margiinalization of sexuality, but simply a free exchange of information about it in all its forms. That would be the day.

Sigh...

[KidKash]

I really hope that I understand the term, sex positive. From my perspective, I believe that the more sex-positive our culture becomes the better it will ultimately become for asexuals. At this point, we have become a very vanilla or bland hetero-centric society. Hopefully, attitudes toward different kinds of sexual activity, or a lack thereof, will become more relaxed.

Unfortunately, acceptance of homosexuals and kinky people does not automatically equate to acceptance of celibates, asexuals, and the like. My experience with the sex positive movement has been that while some people are geniunely accepting of all sexualities, many many others treat asexuals as badly -- and often worse -- as your typical person. When one of the founders of the movement is outright making fun of people who aren't sexually active as teens, and another can't conceive that not everyone has sex as their own personal axis mundi, that's a movement that asexuals ought to be very wary of.

That's why I should proofread more often. I meant to say that the world should push sexual boundaries. When I say sexual boundaries, the binary view of sexual orientation. I apologize for not being clear earlier.

[sonofzeal]

The key is to realize that sex-positivity (as described above) and sex-negativity ("OMG IT IS DIRTY AND BAD!11") are not the only two options. How about sex-neutrality and sex-openness?

I don't know if you've seen this link before, but the first five panels are one of the foundations of my view of sexuality. Basically, it's a slightly different form of striking a balance than you describe - instead of attempting to be completely objective, it points out that there are correct and incorrect applications of it - that sex is not always "omg it r teh awex0me" and is not always "omg it r teh ebil", but has the potential for both. And that's very different than taking a neutral stance, it's attempting to take two opposites and weave them together into a greater whole. And I find that very compelling.

[Eta Carinae]

I don't know if you've seen this link before, but the first five panels are one of the foundations of my view of sexuality. Basically, it's a slightly different form of striking a balance than you describe - instead of attempting to be completely objective, it points out that there are correct and incorrect applications of it - that sex is not always "omg it r teh awex0me" and is not always "omg it r teh ebil", but has the potential for both. And that's very different than taking a neutral stance, it's attempting to take two opposites and weave them together into a greater whole. And I find that very compelling.

I went to that link, and I don't see how this is very different from the nasty kind of sex positivity: unless you're being inconsiderate and disrespectful, the link says, sex is awesome. The problem is that this isn't true: it's awesome for some people, but not for everyone.

I agree with Hallucigenia. And I think it's a pity there aren't more people who take a stance in between "sex is dirty" and "sex is my own personal axis mundi, and it had damn well better be yours, too."

[sonofzeal]

I went to that link, and I don't see how this is very different from the nasty kind of sex positivity: unless you're being inconsiderate and disrespectful, the link says, sex is awesome. The problem is that this isn't true: it's awesome for some people, but not for everyone.

The difference I see that it leaves the door open to define what a sufficient level of thought to put into it is, and at very least turns it from a "you should be doing this and if you arn't there's something wrong with you" issue into a "there's a right and wrong approach and you have to be sensitive to that" issue".

To illustrate - that particular storyarch was about a very naive man who happened to also be a near-flawless seducer of women, and he lived the sex-positive life to the fullest. But that strip is the author blasting that lifestyle, saying that other things (longterm emotional health, social accountability, and morality) are more important than mindblowing orgasms. It's not aimed at a's who want to feel validated in their lifestyle, it's aimed at non-a's who are taking the sex-positive attitude too far, the ones who don't understant that sex isn't everything. That's the distinction I was trying to point out.

[Eta Carinae]

The difference I see that it leaves the door open to define what a sufficient level of thought to put into it is, and at very least turns it from a "you should be doing this and if you arn't there's something wrong with you" issue into a "there's a right and wrong approach and you have to be sensitive to that" issue".

It's not aimed at a's who want to feel validated in their lifestyle, it's aimed at non-a's who are taking the sex-positive attitude too far, the ones who don't understant that sex isn't everything.

Yes, but I would argue that "there's a right and a wrong approach and you have to be sensitive to that, but it's awesome if you do it right" is, generally speaking, already taking it too far. I suppose you could make the case that "doing it wrong" also involves having sex with people who aren't that into it, or who aren't attracted to you, but that's not the feeling I get from the strip at all. What I'm getting is the idea that unless you screw it up by being an insensitive ass, sex will be awesome for your partner. And again, that's not true: some people aren't going to like sex no matter how nice their partner is.

[Neurovore]

It almost seems like the term "sexually liberated" is an oxymoron, because sex has become a necessary chore for most people in society. How are you liberated if the very thing that you have tried to liberated has enslaved you?

[Hallucigenia]

It almost seems like the term "sexually liberated" is an oxymoron, because sex has become a necessary chore for most people in society. How are you liberated if the very thing that you have tried to liberated has enslaved you?

Neorovore, do you have things you love to do several times a week or more, like maybe cooking yourself a delicious meal, engaging in a certain creative activity, spending time with your best friend, or posting to AVEN? Some sexuals feel sort of that way about sex - they make it a high priority for themselves because they love to do it. To them, it doesn't usually feel like a "chore".

The problem comes when you assume that everybody needs to like doing the same things that you do.

[Neurovore]

The problem comes when you assume that everybody needs to like doing the same things that you do.

That is my point. Sex positive culture assumes that everyone, especially men, should be having sex frequently and as often as possible whether you want to or not for it is your duty. If you do not, sex positive culture assumes that you are either immature, or that there is something seriously wrong with you.

[Flyin'Solo]

Most of sex-positive culture I know of emanates from queer women.

And theoretically, it is something that should be a supporting force for the choice of celibacy or whatever asexual expression. Supposedly there's something about making empowered choices about what you do with your own body.

I was just wondering if anyone has actually experienced it that way.

[a-d]

Something about it smacks of pure greed. While the columnists may have other motives, I think the general shift in society's acceptance of the sex-positive movement has been masterminded by someone in marketing or advertizing to make it that much easier to do. Sex sells, after all, but it requires a good deal more work to sell sex in a sex-negative culture. To think, virginity used to be a virtue, and now it's a stigma. Of course, it should be neither, but instead of saying virgins!=adults, it's more like virgins!=potential_consumer_whores...For simplicity's sake, I label virgins as everyone who is not on the hypersexual/promiscuity bandwagon.

[Hallucigenia]

Most of sex-positive culture I know of emanates from queer women.

I'm wondering if you can actually back up that statement, because otherwise it strikes me as sort of offensive. Off the top of my head, a good chunk of the unhealthily-sex-positive people Inkburrow mentioned were male (I have no data on the orientation of the females involved). Plus, the most positively sex-neutral and sex-open teacher I ever had was a queer woman. She gave us frank information about the sexual issues most of us were facing, gave out condoms to anybody to asked, demonstrated how to make a dental dam, etc. She also led huge class discussions of the social issues around sex and gender roles and how women are expected to be sexual objects for men in the media, and so on and so forth. One of the hugest issues for her was young teenage girls (and boys, though generally in a different way) being or feeling forced into acts and roles they weren't comfortable with, and that included sex, and she often encouraged us not to do it yet, or to put a lot of thought into it before doing it with any particular person. But her attitude was "If you're going to do it, you may as well do it right."

Until asexuality is as widely accepted as homosexuality, that's probably one of the best attitudes we're going to get.

[Eta Carinae]

Most of sex-positive culture I know of emanates from queer women.

I'm wondering if you can actually back up that statement, because otherwise it strikes me as sort of offensive.

Actually, this has been close to my experience, too: women have a very strong presence in the culture, and there are strong ties to feminism. I don't think the people I mentioned were mostly men, either: I don't know the sex ratio of the Salon letter writers, and many sex columnists are female, and Dobson (or Dodson; I can't remember which one it is and don't feel like looking at the moment) and Bright are major, major figures in the movement.

[Hallucigenia]

Yes, most of the people you mentioned were female - I think there were two that seemed male from their names. I have little knowledge of their relative importance, so I'll be quiet about the men for now.

I'm not pretending that feminism has nothing to do with it, and that queer women aren't often involved, I just wanted to make the point that lesbians != everything wrong with sex culture, and we shouldn't sound like we're blaming it entirely on them.

Now I have made that point, and I am done. :)