Debunking Conservative myths. AMA

[Yatogami]

I just wanted to go ahead and start discussing conservatism, so I am open for any questions. Since most people on the left have certain assumptions about conservatism. I want to see how many missconceptions I can correct.

Before we begin, Ill explain my political position. I am a center right. Aka progressive conservative, or conservative libertarian. I was raised in red and blue states equally, and currently live in Ohio (the state everyone cares about in elections) so I get tons of exposure to politics just living here.

Being a conservative has nothing to do with being a republican. Conservatism is, simply conserving. Wether that is money, culture, way of life. It depends on the conservative.

EDIT:

DO NOT POST IF YOU ARE NOT ASKING A QUESTION.

DO NOT PUSH ASIDE ANY OPINIONS.

YOU ARE HERE TO LEARN, QUESTION, AND UNDERSTAND. NOT DISAGREE.

[ThaHoward]

Isnt Libertarian a different ideology alltogerher? :p Especially the latter statement, which is in 99% cases is against Libertarian/liberal history, philosophy, legacy and policy.

[Yatogami]

Isnt Libertarian a different ideology alltogerher? :p Especially the latter statement, which is in 99% cases is against Libertarian/liberal history, philosophy, legacy and policy.

No libertarians are on both sides. It is the opposite of authoritarian. Dont confuse the libertarianism with the libertarian political party.

Libertarian just means more freedom for the people.

Left vs right is also regulated vs deregulated market accordingly.

[TophatNTails]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

[Artistofnoname]

I am a conservative libertarian myself. I say conservative because unlike some libertarian I don't believe in gay marriage or abortion.

At one time I was a republican but left when I saw the flaws of the two party system. I also found ways in which I differed like in terms of US intervention in world affairs that we do not belong in.

[ThaHoward]

Isnt Libertarian a different ideology alltogerher? :p Especially the latter statement, which is in 99% cases is against Libertarian/liberal history, philosophy, legacy and policy.

No libertarians are on both sides. It is the opposite of authoritarian. Dont confuse the libertarianism with the libertarian political party.

Libertarian just means more freedom for the people.

Left vs right is also regulated vs deregulated market accordingly.

What you is describing is Centrism (conservative version). Libertarianism is a modern, many times extreme, form of (Classical) Liberalism. And the Libertarian Party is a prime example of Libertarians (of the Liberal school).

[veearrell]

I am a conservative libertarian myself. I say conservative because unlike some libertarian I don't believe in gay marriage or abortion.

At one time I was a republican but left when I saw the flaws of the two party system. I also found ways in which I differed like in terms of US intervention in world affairs that we do not belong in.

So you're a homophobic bigot who thinks LGBT people shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else? Good to know that's one stereotype of conservatives that's actually true.

[Hobbes∞]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

[Yatogami]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

I am a conservative libertarian myself. I say conservative because unlike some libertarian I don't believe in gay marriage or abortion.

At one time I was a republican but left when I saw the flaws of the two party system. I also found ways in which I differed like in terms of US intervention in world affairs that we do not belong in.

So you're a homophobic bigot who thinks LGBT people shouldn't have the same rights as everyone else? Good to know that's one stereotype of conservatives that's actually true.

How do you know why he rationalized that? This post itself is bigoted and hateful.

[veearrell]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

[Yatogami]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

[dissolved]

[...] I don't believe in gay marriage or abortion.

How come?

[veearrell]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

[Hobbes∞]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

Oh no, I'm well aware you were well within the ToS to post this here, only that given the way such threads often go I feel it shan't be long before it gets moved~

[Yatogami]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

Oh no, I'm well aware you were well within the ToS to post this here, only that given the way such threads often go I feel it shan't be long before it gets moved~

Are you threatening to act uncivil? I love how you guys prove my points.

[veearrell]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

Oh no, I'm well aware you were well within the ToS to post this here, only that given the way such threads often go I feel it shan't be long before it gets moved~

Are you threatening to act uncivil? I love how you guys prove my points.

What point? You wanted to debunk stereotypes and one of the first posts was stereotypically conservative (i.e. anti-LGBT). Calling them on it isn't "proving" anything. If anything, they proved that there's nothing to debunk.

[Yatogami]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

On what grounds do you make this claim?

[Yatogami]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

Oh no, I'm well aware you were well within the ToS to post this here, only that given the way such threads often go I feel it shan't be long before it gets moved~

Are you threatening to act uncivil? I love how you guys prove my points.

What point? You wanted to debunk stereotypes and one of the first posts was stereotypically conservative (i.e. anti-LGBT). Calling them on it isn't "proving" anything. If anything, they proved that there's nothing to debunk.

This is my AMA, not a debate thread. You also generalized every conservative, made assumptions, without even asking why. Thats intolerance and hate. Learn to ask questions nicely and civilly. Why don't you try to disprove liberal stereotypes by doing so.

[Hobbes∞]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

Oh no, I'm well aware you were well within the ToS to post this here, only that given the way such threads often go I feel it shan't be long before it gets moved~

Are you threatening to act uncivil? I love how you guys prove my points.

I'm only making the point that conservatism is so commonly controversial a topic that it's likely the thread will devolve into Hot Box worthy arguments, I wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything, only acknowledging that these kind of threads are quite commonly heated on AVEN, a predominantly (liberal?) community as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure that's right, I don't know a great deal about American political terms.

The last thing I'd want is to be uncivil~

[Yatogami]

What are your stances on LGBT rights (I know this is a pretty hot topic with conservatives).

As a supporter of liberty, I think everyone should have the right to do what they want with their lives. Since marriage is an important financial achievement, and can be very important when one person in a relationship dies. Although I am not sure what benefits Domestic partnership entail. Either way, religion should not play a part in it. Though it should be observed, that marriage was solely for political power and not love in the past.

Many social conservatives feel that gay marriage goes against their bible teachings, but what most conservatives don't do is actually read the bible. If people actually know anything about the bible, the new testament overrides the old testament rules (mosaic laws). Most churches do not teach the bible as a whole, because the bible is actually pretty fucking violent and has many contradictions. All they do is cherry pick and have sermons that have little to do with the bible itself.

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

Check site comments. Thread about conservatism.

Oh no, I'm well aware you were well within the ToS to post this here, only that given the way such threads often go I feel it shan't be long before it gets moved~

Are you threatening to act uncivil? I love how you guys prove my points.

I'm only making the point that conservatism is so commonly controversial a topic that it's likely the thread will devolve into Hot Box worthy arguments, I wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything, only acknowledging that these kind of threads are quite commonly heated on AVEN, a predominantly (liberal?) community as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure that's right, I don't know a great deal about American political terms.

The last thing I'd want is to be uncivil~

This thread was designed to be an AMA, not a controversial debate thread. I cannot help that people jump the gun and make everything unstable because they don't like conservatism. Why do you not call them out on derailing? Make them be civil.

[veearrell]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

On what grounds do you make this claim?

On the grounds that courts have held many times that there is no legal argument to justify denying LGBT people equal rights. On the further grounds that anytime conservatives DO try to deny LGBT rights, they always, ALWAYS use the Bible as their argument. Since you yourself said that they don't know what they're talking about, you should agree with me that their stance is wrong. Unless you're a hypocrite, that is.

This is my AMA, not a debate thread. You also generalized every conservative, made assumptions, without even asking why. Thats intolerance and hate. Learn to ask questions nicely and civilly. Why don't you try to disprove liberal stereotypes by doing so.

Calling someone a bigot when they've shown that they are one is not bigotry. Sorry, it's just not. People love to say that it is though so they can deflect criticism and try to make their bigotry legitimate.

[Polygon]

This has escalated rather quickly...

[Yatogami]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

On what grounds do you make this claim?

On the grounds that courts have held many times that there is no legal argument to justify denying LGBT people equal rights. On the further grounds that anytime conservatives DO try to deny LGBT rights, they always, ALWAYS use the Bible as their argument. Since you yourself said that they don't know what they're talking about, you should agree with me that their stance is wrong. Unless you're a hypocrite, that is.

This is my AMA, not a debate thread. You also generalized every conservative, made assumptions, without even asking why. Thats intolerance and hate. Learn to ask questions nicely and civilly. Why don't you try to disprove liberal stereotypes by doing so.

Calling someone a bigot when they've shown that they are one is not bigotry. Sorry, it's just not. People love to say that it is though so they can deflect criticism and try to make their bigotry legitimate.

If you were paying attention, I debunked that Christians who don't support LGBT did not read the bible. They are pawns of their church system. You have no right to say what nijikaegirl feels about it. They didn't even say it, so how the fuck do you know? So until they say that is the reason, then you cannot make this claim. So quit jumping to conclusions.

Also, if someone doesn't support gay marriage because of their belief system, its not bigoted because that is their belief. That is it, a belief has no harm. It is when they try to force it onto others is when it is harmful. If you want to debate this, post something in the hotbox not on my AMA.

[veearrell]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

On what grounds do you make this claim?

On the grounds that courts have held many times that there is no legal argument to justify denying LGBT people equal rights. On the further grounds that anytime conservatives DO try to deny LGBT rights, they always, ALWAYS use the Bible as their argument. Since you yourself said that they don't know what they're talking about, you should agree with me that their stance is wrong. Unless you're a hypocrite, that is.

This is my AMA, not a debate thread. You also generalized every conservative, made assumptions, without even asking why. Thats intolerance and hate. Learn to ask questions nicely and civilly. Why don't you try to disprove liberal stereotypes by doing so.

Calling someone a bigot when they've shown that they are one is not bigotry. Sorry, it's just not. People love to say that it is though so they can deflect criticism and try to make their bigotry legitimate.

If you were paying attention, I debunked that Christians who don't support LGBT did not read the bible. They are pawns of their church system. You have no right to say what nijikaegirl feels about it. They didn't even say it, so how the fuck do you know? So until they say that is the reason, then you cannot make this claim. So quit jumping to conclusions.

Also, if someone doesn't support gay marriage because of their belief system, its not bigoted because that is their belief. That is it, a belief has no harm. It is when they try to force it onto others is when it is harmful. If you want to debate this, post something in the hotbox not on my AMA.

Except that conservatives DO try and force their beliefs on others by way of legislation. Have you not been paying attention? This year alone there have been over 200 anti-LGBT bills introduced in legislatures across the country and some of them have even passed. If you don't think that's a reason to think conservatives in general are bigoted, then you're in denial, plain and simple.

[Yatogami]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

On what grounds do you make this claim?

On the grounds that courts have held many times that there is no legal argument to justify denying LGBT people equal rights. On the further grounds that anytime conservatives DO try to deny LGBT rights, they always, ALWAYS use the Bible as their argument. Since you yourself said that they don't know what they're talking about, you should agree with me that their stance is wrong. Unless you're a hypocrite, that is.

This is my AMA, not a debate thread. You also generalized every conservative, made assumptions, without even asking why. Thats intolerance and hate. Learn to ask questions nicely and civilly. Why don't you try to disprove liberal stereotypes by doing so.

Calling someone a bigot when they've shown that they are one is not bigotry. Sorry, it's just not. People love to say that it is though so they can deflect criticism and try to make their bigotry legitimate.

If you were paying attention, I debunked that Christians who don't support LGBT did not read the bible. They are pawns of their church system. You have no right to say what nijikaegirl feels about it. They didn't even say it, so how the fuck do you know? So until they say that is the reason, then you cannot make this claim. So quit jumping to conclusions.

Also, if someone doesn't support gay marriage because of their belief system, its not bigoted because that is their belief. That is it, a belief has no harm. It is when they try to force it onto others is when it is harmful. If you want to debate this, post something in the hotbox not on my AMA.

Except that conservatives DO try and force their beliefs on others by way of legislation. Have you not been paying attention? This year alone there have been over 200 anti-LGBT bills introduced in legislatures across the country and some of them have even passed. If you don't think that's a reason to think conservatives in general are bigoted, then you're in denial, plain and simple.

Those are republicans and social conservatives. Don't lump all conservatives into it. Same sex marriage has already been legalized anyways, because its constitutional. Now quit derailing my thread.

[ThaHoward]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

Jumping to Conclusions? Being Conservative isn't being all that. Just like being a socialist don't mean you are a Stalinist. Remember the Last time you jumped to conclusions and attacked someone before you knew what they meant? Take it as an oppurtunity to learn instead of going on the offensive.

[veearrell]

The most pertinent question is why you thought this thread could survive in Philosophy, Politics and Science :lol:

Though in fairness it took five or six posts before it became Hot Box material so that was nice.

What can I say? If someone outs themselves as a homophobe, racist or anything else like that, I will call them on it. If that's what being an "SJW" means, then I guess I'm proud to be one.

So you are proud of assuming before you even know why? Talk about jumping to conclusions and making selfish assumptions.

If someone opposes gay marriage, they're a homophobic bigot. What's not to understand?

On what grounds do you make this claim?

On the grounds that courts have held many times that there is no legal argument to justify denying LGBT people equal rights. On the further grounds that anytime conservatives DO try to deny LGBT rights, they always, ALWAYS use the Bible as their argument. Since you yourself said that they don't know what they're talking about, you should agree with me that their stance is wrong. Unless you're a hypocrite, that is.

This is my AMA, not a debate thread. You also generalized every conservative, made assumptions, without even asking why. Thats intolerance and hate. Learn to ask questions nicely and civilly. Why don't you try to disprove liberal stereotypes by doing so.

Calling someone a bigot when they've shown that they are one is not bigotry. Sorry, it's just not. People love to say that it is though so they can deflect criticism and try to make their bigotry legitimate.

If you were paying attention, I debunked that Christians who don't support LGBT did not read the bible. They are pawns of their church system. You have no right to say what nijikaegirl feels about it. They didn't even say it, so how the fuck do you know? So until they say that is the reason, then you cannot make this claim. So quit jumping to conclusions.

Also, if someone doesn't support gay marriage because of their belief system, its not bigoted because that is their belief. That is it, a belief has no harm. It is when they try to force it onto others is when it is harmful. If you want to debate this, post something in the hotbox not on my AMA.

Except that conservatives DO try and force their beliefs on others by way of legislation. Have you not been paying attention? This year alone there have been over 200 anti-LGBT bills introduced in legislatures across the country and some of them have even passed. If you don't think that's a reason to think conservatives in general are bigoted, then you're in denial, plain and simple.

Those are republicans and social conservatives. Don't lump all conservatives into it. Same sex marriage has already been legalized anyways, because its constitutional. Now quit derailing my thread.

Fine, but if you really want to say "not all conservatives", then those of you who claim not to be like that should be standing up against the hateful ones. If you stay silent, you implicitly approve of what they are doing by not objecting to it.

[Rising Sun]

Could it be possible to cut the high number of quotes, please ? It's very hard to read on a cell phone.

[Yatogami]

Fine, but if you really want to say "not all conservatives", then those of you who claim not to be like that should be standing up against the hateful ones. If you stay silent, you implicitly approve of what they are doing by not objecting to it.

Which I do, almost everyday. There is a movement against the bigotry of the republicans, and you may not realize it because you jump to conclusions.

[Yatogami]

Could it be possible to cut the high number of quotes, please ? It's very hard to read on a cell phone.

Sorry AVEN is a bit hard to quote properly without chaining.