Working on negative self-talk

[butterflydreams]

Specifically as trans people.

My internal voice to myself prides itself on how "realistic" it is. But I think it might be being a bit too harsh, and it's really dragging me down. I'm going to spoiler this, because it's pretty bad.

"Why would any normal man or woman want to be with you when there are plenty of real girls out there?"

"You have to look perfect and extra feminine to make up for the fact that you have a penis. Right now, you don't, so you can't complain."

I bet this is a lot of "future predicting" but I'm pretty lonely in real life, and this is where my mind goes. I'd love it if I could think, "you're so much more than your body. Someone will really appreciate you for all of you." But I haven't been able to get there.

Any ideas? Thoughts on negative self talk that entwine with asexuality are welcome too.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Dont know if this will help but at least when it came to how I felt with the idea of not fitting in to the "normalcy" patterns, especially since I had the rejection of pretty much everyone else, I found it useful to make my attitude to be, in a sense, apathetic to the rest of the world. I knew that no matter what I did, something would always be deemed "wrong" with me because thats how pack mentality works. So I categorized the rest of the world as unimportant and went from there.

[Dodecahedron314]

When I get that specific kind of negative self-talk, for me it's usually more to do with being aro (but still wanting a QPR) than being trans, but I can still definitely agree that it sucks. Heck, I'm *in* a QPR (albeit a long-distance one) and my brain still tries to tell me things like that, because it's just that illogical. So I guess if nothing else, I suppose that's an example of how those kinds of thoughts have no basis whatsoever in reality.

When it comes to gender-related negative self-talk, I've noticed that when I have thoughts along the lines of "wow, I would be such a failure if this happened" or "everybody would definitely judge me if they knew about this" or things like that, my brain reverts back to using my deadname and old pronouns. I feel like that might just be because my anxiety and depression and all that fun stuff that causes thoughts like that started back when I still thought I was cis, and so it's just a reversion back to the same old thing--scared, depressed 14-year-old Dodec knowing with complete conviction that the world is broken and she's the worst, most broken thing about it. Being stuck in that big of a rut doesn't just go away overnight--even the tiniest things can make me feel like I'm slipping back to square 1 where I belong.

The thing is, I know I'm not that person anymore. I know there's wounded deadname Dodec who stayed sequestered in her room and never did anything that wasn't school or band because those were the only two constants she had, and when she ever did do anything else it felt wrong and like she didn't deserve it. But there's also the Dodec who's sitting on a bed in an apartment shared with three other glorious nerds, typing this right now as they reflect on the astronomy job they never dreamed they would have, and the friends they never dreamed they would make, and the happiness that comes from just walking across the quad on a beautiful day that they never thought they would feel again. Those two Dodecs are very definitively separated by time, by location, by stage of life, by names and pronouns, and I'd like to think by state of mind as well. So, when something from one bleeds into the other, everything else tries to follow, and I'm still working on fixing that.

...I have no idea where I was originally planning on going with that (apparently I'm doing the thing where I haven't slept and so now I have too many words and feelings about everything), but I guess the upshot could be that maybe analyzing the things that nasty little voice in your head says and pinning down exactly why they're wrong might be a start?

[anjesa]

I guess most people have felt something like this or something very similar at some point. I probably have a bit different point of view since I'm rather gender fluid. But when I'm feeling feminine, I have moments when I wish that I was born female and feel very inferior to non-trans girls. I'm also aromantic, but I wish I'll someday find a somewhat sexual queerplatonic relationship or something like that.

The way I try to think is, that if someone doesn't appreciate and love me the way I am, they are not really worth my time. In my potential partner, I'd value thier personality much more than their body, and I'd except the same from them. Thinking this way helps me feel less inferior, but on the other hand, it doesn't help my loneliness at all.

But I know very well how difficult in can be to change ways of thinking, and get rid of negative thoughts about yourself. I just try to actively remind myself of things that are well and assure myself that I am good enough the way I am. That doesn't mean that one should push those negative feelings aside, though: it's importan to try and process those feelings and thoughts, maybe talking about them with someone (personally prefer face to face talks about difficult subjects). Or, sometimes when I'm feeling insufficient and insecure I just lay in my bed and cry, this just somehow often gets it out and makes me feel a better after a while.

Also it'd be good to try and more close pin down the cause of those negative thoughts. And also try to think what should change or happen so that you wouldn't feel this way anymore?

[Calligraphette_Coe]

Specifically as trans people.

My internal voice to myself prides itself on how "realistic" it is. But I think it might be being a bit too harsh, and it's really dragging me down. I'm going to spoiler this, because it's pretty bad.

"Why would any normal man or woman want to be with you when there are plenty of real girls out there?"

"You have to look perfect and extra feminine to make up for the fact that you have a penis. Right now, you don't, so you can't complain."

I bet this is a lot of "future predicting" but I'm pretty lonely in real life, and this is where my mind goes. I'd love it if I could think, "you're so much more than your body. Someone will really appreciate you for all of you." But I haven't been able to get there.

Any ideas? Thoughts on negative self talk that entwine with asexuality are welcome too.

You might want to consider snagging a copy of Pat Califia's Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism and read the chapter The Invisible Gender Outlaws: Partners of Transgendered People. It never fails to make me cry, but it also shows me that not everyone ends up like me. And somehow, that makes me feel a little bit better. Things like this quote from that chapter:

The formation of a strong transgendered community is essential. Simply knowing one or two other people who are in a similar life situation can make all the difference between happiness and despair.

Sometimes, it's not what we do on our backs that we remember the most, it's the shared moments of the heart. That emotional intimacy that leads to that proverbial peace that passes all understanding.

[butterflydreams]

but I guess the upshot could be that maybe analyzing the things that nasty little voice in your head says and pinning down exactly why they're wrong might be a start?

Yeah, I think that's probably a good place to start. I'm not really sure why I say these things to myself. I think it has a lot to do with feeling like saying these things is somehow "protecting" me.

Also it'd be good to try and more close pin down the cause of those negative thoughts. And also try to think what should change or happen so that you wouldn't feel this way anymore?

My snap reaction is that someone would need to see me and love me for exactly who I am, but I feel like the real answer is that I need to accept myself and stop saying things that imply I'm not as good as a "real girl" or that I'm some kind of "girl lite" who doesn't deserve the same level of love and caring that anyone does. I feel like that's the first thing that has to drop, and then I wouldn't be so quick to beat myself up over it.

You might want to consider snagging a copy of Pat Califia's Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism and read the chapter The Invisible Gender Outlaws: Partners of Transgendered People. It never fails to make me cry, but it also shows me that not everyone ends up like me. And somehow, that makes me feel a little bit better. Things like this quote from that chapter:

The formation of a strong transgendered community is essential. Simply knowing one or two other people who are in a similar life situation can make all the difference between happiness and despair.

Sometimes, it's not what we do on our backs that we remember the most, it's the shared moments of the heart. That emotional intimacy that leads to that proverbial peace that passes all understanding.

Mmm, and this is definitely how I think about things. Deep down, I think emotional intimacy is all I've ever wanted. Even before I understood what asexual and trans were. Back then, I didn't have the 360-degree understanding to be able to seek that kind of thing out, but I could tell what I was told to do, and what others were doing didn't feel right to me.

[Snao Cone]

The thoughts under the spoiler are similar to what my mind used to haunt me with (and still does, less frequently) regarding my size/shape/weight. One thing that's helped me there is looking for examples of it being normalized. There is some very constructive dialogue about body positivity going on, for both size and gender conformity. Reading a lot of very affirming things, whether they're books or articles or thoughts of individuals shared through social media, might help. They don't have to be self-help style material either. Just looking at the current range of dialogue out there might help lift you up when you're down, with concrete tools that provide real evidence of the basis of your negative thoughts being deconstructed. You're not suffering alone. There are success stories out there of people getting to a place they need to be without having to conform to the highest standards of their gender. The people who got there have likely been exposed to the same pressures and perceived expectations as you. Gender transition and mental health/self-esteem are very, very closely related, and that's because of societal discrimination instead of something inherent to the trans people suffering from them.

Maybe if you bookmark some of the more uplifting or reaffirming material out there, you'll have something to go to when you're feeling low that will divert the negative direction of your thoughts. It might not work all the time, but having it handy will probably help.

[Ace of Amethysts]

*insert rambling about my own negative aromantic self-talk here*

[anjesa]

Also it'd be goo to try and more close pin down the cause of those negative thoughts. And also try to think what should change or happen so that you wouldn't feel this way anymore?

My snap reaction is that someone would need to see me and love me for exactly who I am, but I feel like the real answer is that I need to accept myself and stop saying things that imply I'm not as good as a "real girl" or that I'm some kind of "girl lite" who doesn't deserve the same level of love and caring that anyone does. I feel like that's the first thing that has to drop, and then I wouldn't be so quick to beat myself up over it.

Can you tell if those negative thoughts stem more from trans-related things, or from the fear of being lonely? Like, if you imagine you were a cis-female, would you still be afraid of being alone forever?

And course trans people deserve same kind of love and affection and care as cis-people. Getting that love can be tougher for them, but still, it is not hopeless. Also do you mind me asking, what kind of love you specifically mean, ie. romantic or platonic or...?

[butterflydreams]

The thoughts under the spoiler are similar to what my mind used to haunt me with (and still does, less frequently) regarding my size/shape/weight.

You know, this makes me wonder if this kind of tendency to negative self talk isn't something that's just learned more broadly. When I was a kid, my dad would shame me about my weight all the time. I wasn't skinny as a rail, but I was far, far from overweight, and I was largely healthy. But it got into my head so bad. I remember one time he made me get on the scale, in the kitchen, in front of my brother and then proceeded to make jokes about it. So maybe at that young age, hearing those kinds of messages externally made it easier to create them internally too. I never received a lot of positive affirming things about myself when I was growing up. Nothing was ever enough. 3.95 GPA in college? Why isn't it a 4.0? Making this much money? Why aren't you making twice that? And on and on. So maybe that stuff becomes learned and you even start to do it yourself.

I like the idea of finding uplifting stuff though. And normalizing things. I remember I read this one story about this trans woman and how good she felt when she wasn't some "dirty little secret" to her boyfriend. He introduced her to his family and they really made her feel welcome. I liked that. Lightyears from what I feel I can expect personally, but it's nice to dream I guess, and to know that it happened for someone else.

Can you tell if those negative thoughts stem more from trans-related things, or from the fear of being lonely? Like, if you imagine you were a cis-female, would you still be afraid of being alone forever?

And course trans people deserve same kind of love and affection and care as cis-people. Getting that love can be tougher for them, but still, it is not hopeless. Also do you mind me asking, what kind of love you specifically mean, ie. romantic or platonic or...?

I mean, it's probably both. I've always been afraid of being lonely, and it's easy to blame that on trans stuff. I sometimes wonder if it would be even worse if I were cis female, because then I'd be contending with a biological clock too (having kids and such). I think I'm mostly on about romantic love. I have a handful of people who are good friends, and that's a lot easier for me now that I'm not hiding all sorts of things. But romantic love has always been very elusive to me. Arguably I faked a lot of it as a guy when I was younger. I'm almost not even sure what to do now. It's like I have to learn all this stuff for the first time.

[Heart]

My motto in life tends to be something like this:

The cake is a lie.

But the pie is amazing!

Yes, this is inspired by Portal, because I am a nerd. But for real, this is life. Society promises each and every one of us that if we work hard, we can all be a cis woman/man married to the perfect soul-mate cis man/woman, who is the opposite binary gender than we are supposed to be and never abusive, and have 1.6 children and live in a house with a white picket fence and be perfectly monogamous but it won't be hard because love. The American Dream . And that is Happiness .

But that's all a lie. Not only are we not all cishets, we're not all going to be happy with that cookie-cutter arrangement (not even all cishets). I, for one, am very clearly happiest when I can have more than one partner in a loving and communication-based relationship(s). It's heaven to me; I am never as happy in a monogamous relationship. And I don't want 1.6 children. Nor a white picket fence. Purple has always been my favourite colour. Or maybe rainbow.

So, in short, society lied to you. A lot. You're not a straight man, and you'd never be happy in the dream that it's trying to sell you. The cake is a lie. But if you forge your own path, which you're already doing, then maybe you can find a pie, and it'll be that much better for being yours. Just because the cake is a lie, doesn't mean there is no happiness ever to be found; it just means you can get even better ;)

Now, the negative self-talk is not foreign to me. Sometimes my pie seems inadequate because it's not a cake. Sometimes I'm ashamed to admit I am a pie person. Or I want to hide my pie because I'm afraid people will see it and think I only have it because I wasn't good enough somehow to find the cake ("she's just asexual because she's too ugly to get laid", "she's poly because she can't get a man to settle down with her", "she doesn't like sex because she sucks at it" etc). There are times when the pie tastes like ashes in my mouth, and I wish I had been a cake person, because everyone around me laudes how good the cake tastes and in the face of such an insistence I find myself doubting my own tastes of the pie.

But I have to remind myself how ridiculous it is to assume that there is one model for Happiness for everyone. I mean, the 1.6 children hetero marriage with a white picket fence works for some people. Their cake tastes amazing to them. But it doesn't work for me. That is my personal Truth. And it helps me to just assert that. It is My Truth. You can't have it. But you can find your own, if you want. It will take a lot of hard work, but you know this already. Life gave you a recipe for cake, so you're going to have to make your own recipe up for the pie that will actually make you happy.

It helps me sometimes to just take myself aside, stare at myself in the eyes, and say "This is my truth. Deal with it." Because it is, and it's not up for negotiation. Negative self-talk can just go bury itself in a hole, because it's wrong and that's just the way things are, and I don't negotiate with negative self-talk.

And now that I've stretched that cake metaphor WAY too far, I'm just going to offer you *hugs*. You're a fabulous person, and I know that being on the relationship hunt can be terrible, but never forget that you are wonderful.

Oh, and um.... TMI spoiler for stuff that I kinda had to look at sideways in order to type because I get repulsed by these sorts of things, but maybe it's helpful for you? Maybe. Probably not. But I'll just put this down here just in case. It cant hurt... right?

There are definitely people out there who would find you more attractive, not less, for being a girl with a penis. It's TOTALLY your call on whether you are ok with that or not, and you never have any obligation to date them or do anything with them that makes you uncomfortable. But I know that there are both men and women (and probably genderqueer folk too, I just happen to know mainly binary people who have this desire) out there that enjoy the idea of a woman with a penis, especially if you are willing to use it in the bedroom. Again, if your dysphoria says no, then listen to it! I don't know why I'm saying this :redface: I guess there's a small chance it'll help to hear. So on the off chance, then here it is. But also, don't feel the need to act on it if you don't want to.

But yeah. You're not "less of a girl", even if you choose to keep your genitals and use them however you please. You just aren't less of a girl for something like that. Nor would you be less of a girl if you decide to do surgery, or if you decide to engage in sexy times but not involve your penis. All is fair, and you're still a wonderful girl. You don't have to "make up" for having a penis; your girl-hood is not in your pants. Not even a little bit.

[butterflydreams]

Thanks, Heart. Portal was a great game, so you're definitely speaking my language on that one :)

Now, the negative self-talk is not foreign to me. Sometimes my pie seems inadequate because it's not a cake. Sometimes I'm ashamed to admit I am a pie person. Or I want to hide my pie because I'm afraid people will see it and think I only have it because I wasn't good enough somehow to find the cake ("she's just asexual because she's too ugly to get laid", "she's poly because she can't get a man to settle down with her", "she doesn't like sex because she sucks at it" etc). There are times when the pie tastes like ashes in my mouth, and I wish I had been a cake person, because everyone around me laudes how good the cake tastes and in the face of such an insistence I find myself doubting my own tastes of the pie.

This really resonates with me, and I've seen it elsewhere all over AVEN. This idea that we're only asexual/trans/aromantic/etc because we're deficient in some way. Presumably it could be fixed if we fixed the deficiency. Of course it sounds gross and awful when you write it, but it's surprising how plausible it can start to sound when you're alone, sitting at home in the dark. My mom still believes that I chose pie, and that I chose it because no one would have me, and that I wasn't making enough of an effort. Some nice girl would surely straighten me right out. I feel bad that it even sounds plausible to me sometimes

There are definitely people out there who would find you more attractive, not less, for being a girl with a penis. It's TOTALLY your call on whether you are ok with that or not, and you never have any obligation to date them or do anything with them that makes you uncomfortable. But I know that there are both men and women (and probably genderqueer folk too, I just happen to know mainly binary people who have this desire) out there that enjoy the idea of a woman with a penis, especially if you are willing to use it in the bedroom. Again, if your dysphoria says no, then listen to it! I don't know why I'm saying this :redface: I guess there's a small chance it'll help to hear. So on the off chance, then here it is. But also, don't feel the need to act on it if you don't want to.

But yeah. You're not "less of a girl", even if you choose to keep your genitals and use them however you please. You just aren't less of a girl for something like that. Nor would you be less of a girl if you decide to do surgery, or if you decide to engage in sexy times but not involve your penis. All is fair, and you're still a wonderful girl. You don't have to "make up" for having a penis; your girl-hood is not in your pants. Not even a little bit.

I really appreciate you writing this. I know it couldn't have been easy. I'll spoiler my thoughts in response...

It was just as hard for me to write that I have a penis. While I respect that there are people out there for whom it might really work (girl with a penis) I'd be extremely skeptical that they weren't just using me as some kind of fetish :( Even though that's not to say everyone is like that.

I wish so hard it wasn't the case. I've listened to so many trans women who don't care, and who go through great lengths to make sure functionality isn't impeded. I'm genuinely happy for them, but for me, dysphoria says absolutely no way. Through clothes at best. I hate to be one of "those" people, but referring to it as the female anatomic analogue is becoming something I'm more and more keen on.

The following is totally not your fault, but even just thinking about it now, I've got tears streaming down my face because I do feel like less of a girl because of it. Because of everything that's wrong. I feel like less of a girl, and I wouldn't even fault anyone who felt the same way.

[Heart]

*warm hugs*

I've had this tab open for days, waiting to have appropriate time to respond. I'm sorry I didn't get to it earlier. But I did want to say that you're wonderful. And even if I never intended to cause you dysphoria, I'm still sorry that my message triggered it.

I know you'll find that certain someone that will make you feel like you're melting inside, should you so desire to find that someone. But I also know that it always takes much longer than you think it will, and at every step it feels hopeless. For what it's worth, I'm always here ready to give out hugs.

[butterflydreams]

Oh, Heart, it's 100% not your fault *hugs* I have to learn how to be strong when I get those thoughts and feelings. Because if in my head, I think I'm less of a girl, then other people are going to think that too. So it really has to start with me. Like I said, I'm working on learning if referring to "things" differently will help me. I guess...transition is a much broader process than just hormones or surgeries. People called me a guy all my life, and based on what I knew most of that time, I thought they must be right, even though I didn't feel right. I have to transition away from who people said I was and into who I know I am. And I think that's a difficult process, but nobody said transition was easy.

(And in a weird way, it helps to hear you say that it will feel hopeless. I'm right on track!)