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Is your Gender Important to You?


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It's easy to say that it wouldn't matter if you woke up and suddenly everyone started treating you as the opposite sex, but given it's not something most of us have any way to actually experience, I take it on faith from trans people that it would be very upsetting. I think cis people get confused because they're like "whatever, if my friend calls me 'dude' instead of 'she', I don't care!" as if that's even remotely comparable.

EDIT: So this is lame and some of you may find it offensive, but we'll see... I tend to think of it like Freaky Friday or those other body switch movies. Suddenly you're Jamie Lee Curtis, but in the body of Lindsay Lohan, and everyone treats you like Lindsay Lohan and that's really upsetting! And, you can tell people you're actually Jame Lee inside, but at best someone takes you at your word... no one actually sees it, your identity isn't a reality to other people like it is to you. It's just something they agree to believe because you asked them to (obviously until one starts transitioning, etc). It's waaaaay more than just a pronoun issue or whatever.

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butterflydreams

It's easy to say that it wouldn't matter if you woke up and suddenly everyone started treating you as the opposite sex, but given it's not something most of us have any way to actually experience, I take it on faith from trans people that it would be very upsetting. I think cis people get confused because they're like "whatever, if my friend calls me 'dude' instead of 'she', I don't care!" as if that's even remotely comparable.

Sometimes pronouns or names are very important, I won't deny that. But for me, the biggest thing is just feeling comfortable when I see myself. I'm actualizing into meatspace who I really am on the inside.

And not to get TMI here, but you know all those people in the world who like to have relationships (sexual or otherwise)? Think you'd feel the same way if you were the opposite sex? I wouldn't, and I don't. There's no subroutine in all of my programming for sex/relationships as a guy. Doesn't matter who I'm with, I'm the problem. So imagine one day you woke up, you're now a guy, and you're expected to have relationships with women. It feels wrong, and it hurts, so you think you're supposed to be with men, but that hurts too.

I'm sure it's different for different trans people, but this has been my experience, and I've read it from at least one other trans person. Her mom got bold and asked her if she'd ever had sex or been in a sexual relationship. She responded that she could never have imagined doing that as a guy. Exactly. Neither can I.

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Huh, I'm one of those who don't care if it's in line :P

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I don't understand why people are making such a big deal of genders these days.

A lot of girls actually never wear make-up, never shave, etc and are still cis female. I see a lot of people saying that they're gender-neutral just because they aren't stereotypical girls/boys. For example, genderfluid enforce gender roles, as if wearing jeans make you a boy and wearing a dress make you a girl.

It feels like most of non-dysphoric people who changes their gender are people who wants to be special. Or maybe they're just teens going through puberty and questioning their identity, which happens a lot. They either want to stand out of the majority, or be part of a group, with people who are different than the norm.

But again, I cannot judge, since I've never been through dysphoria or have questioned my gender. This is simply my opinion, and it's completely fine if you don't agree with it.

Yea ... maybe you should sit this one out, ehh buddy??? I didn't learn the truth of my gender identity till I was 22 so how's that for a phase and a half??? Now granted I waited it out a few years to see if it actually was a phase because everyone knows the brain doesn't reach full maturity until age 25. At age 26 I am yet still a genderqueer person who claims neither and both genders at the same time and I'll be 27 in the fall.

Please calm down. I've never said that having a different gender that the one you were born as was wrong, and I've never said that everybody applied to what I said. If you're happy with you're gender, that's amazing ! I was talking about people using it as a trend, in order to make themselves feel special. I'm sorry if it wasn't well said. And I was talking about pre-teens and teens, not adults. And again, it's just my opinion.

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My gender matters to me at this moment, but only because it's at odds with my body. I suspect that further along in my transition, I'll get to a point where I no longer care.

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butterflydreams

My gender matters to me at this moment, but only because it's at odds with my body. I suspect that further along in my transition, I'll get to a point where I no longer care.

Yes. This. I can almost even even feel the trend moving in that way now. I don't think I'll ever not care completely, but I do find that I'm more...I guess confident in my femininity being valid. Things that would have once been disharmonious are now far less so, and that feels good.

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My gender matters to me at this moment, but only because it's at odds with my body. I suspect that further along in my transition, I'll get to a point where I no longer care.

Yes. This. I can almost even even feel the trend moving in that way now. I don't think I'll ever not care completely, but I do find that I'm more...I guess confident in my femininity being valid. Things that would have once been disharmonious are now far less so, and that feels good.

Me too! Of course, my transition is from long haired chic in pink tshirt and a cute hoodie to a short haired a bit androgynous queer lady ala Major Kusanagi or Coco Chanel. But something surely went away together with my hair and I stop caring at all.

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I see a lot of people saying that they're gender-neutral just because they aren't stereotypical girls/boys. For example, genderfluid enforce gender roles, as if wearing jeans make you a boy and wearing a dress make you a girl.

1) If they're saying they're gender neutral, it's because they're gender neutral. They aren't boys or girls at all.

2) genderfluid does not enforce gender roles. Gender roles can inform gender fluidity, and some genderfluid people might be more comfortable wearing jeans or a dress when their gender changes because they know that it's an easy way to feel more comfortable in their own skin when they're dysphoric. Also, a lot of genderfluid people have stable gender presentations and always present feminine, or always present masculine, or always present androgynous. Or if their presentation changes it might be because they just felt like wearing a dress or jeans, not because they're female when they're wearing a dress and male when they're wearing pants.

3) this is not just "your opinion". Opinions don't disrespect people's existence.

Exactly. I am genderfluid and non-binary, and I am always non-binary. What changes is whether I am a masculine-of-center non-binary person, a feminine-of-center non-binary person, or something in between. Even at my most masculine, I am still not a cis man, and at my most feminine, I am at best a close facsimile of a trans woman. Personally, I do change my appearance based on when my gender fluctuates, because I always like my exterior to match my interior as best as possible. That's why, despite being non-binary, I am still on feminizing hormones- to make myself look that much more feminine on my feminine days, but not so much that I can't go back to something else on other days.

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I see a lot of people saying that they're gender-neutral just because they aren't stereotypical girls/boys. For example, genderfluid enforce gender roles, as if wearing jeans make you a boy and wearing a dress make you a girl.

1) If they're saying they're gender neutral, it's because they're gender neutral. They aren't boys or girls at all.

2) genderfluid does not enforce gender roles. Gender roles can inform gender fluidity, and some genderfluid people might be more comfortable wearing jeans or a dress when their gender changes because they know that it's an easy way to feel more comfortable in their own skin when they're dysphoric. Also, a lot of genderfluid people have stable gender presentations and always present feminine, or always present masculine, or always present androgynous. Or if their presentation changes it might be because they just felt like wearing a dress or jeans, not because they're female when they're wearing a dress and male when they're wearing pants.

3) this is not just "your opinion". Opinions don't disrespect people's existence.

You again ? Yes, my post was a bit rough, and I'm sorry about that, but what I don't understand is why I can't have my own opinion. Actually, the fact that I can't have an opinion is just your opinion. I'm not attacking anybody, and I can have a different opinion than you. My opinion can be wrong, but that doesn't mean that I cannot express it.

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I see a lot of people saying that they're gender-neutral just because they aren't stereotypical girls/boys. For example, genderfluid enforce gender roles, as if wearing jeans make you a boy and wearing a dress make you a girl.

1) If they're saying they're gender neutral, it's because they're gender neutral. They aren't boys or girls at all.

2) genderfluid does not enforce gender roles. Gender roles can inform gender fluidity, and some genderfluid people might be more comfortable wearing jeans or a dress when their gender changes because they know that it's an easy way to feel more comfortable in their own skin when they're dysphoric. Also, a lot of genderfluid people have stable gender presentations and always present feminine, or always present masculine, or always present androgynous. Or if their presentation changes it might be because they just felt like wearing a dress or jeans, not because they're female when they're wearing a dress and male when they're wearing pants.

3) this is not just "your opinion". Opinions don't disrespect people's existence.

You again ? Yes, my post was a bit rough, and I'm sorry about that, but what I don't understand is why I can't have my own opinion. Actually, the fact that I can't have an opinion is just your opinion. I'm not attacking anybody, and I can have a different opinion than you. My opinion can be wrong, but that doesn't mean that I cannot express it.

While Arodynamic and I have some key ideological differences, I have to agree with him on this one. It's not a matter of attacking an opinion as in an ideology, but rather we are trying to inform you that in the realm of gender, you're making some logical fallacies that seem to have led you to form the wrong conclusion about the experiences of non-binary individuals. When I say that I am genderfluid, all I am saying is that my gender, my internal sense of self as it relates to masculinity and femininity, fluctuates along a spectrum, rather than staying in one place. When I choose to wear makeup and a skirt one day, and forgo it the next, it is not that I am enforcing gender roles, but that I want my physical appearance, my exterior, to match how I'm feeling internally, my interior. That's all it is. It has nothing to do with enforcing stereotypes; it's just about me doing what makes me the most comfortable in my skin at any point in time.

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My gender is irrelevant to me personally.
Other than standing up to pee, I can't think of anything I do in a day that is intrinsically male.
In the 1980s I spent a year living as a female, mostly because of my search to find what was 'wrong' with me.
Asexuality was pretty much unknown pre-internet, and I certainly didn't have the community and vocabulary that we now take for granted.
Looking back, I think my year as a woman was also to do with my lack of male/female feelings.
It was basically; "I don't seem to be male in the accepted (in the early 1980s) sense of being gay or straight, so maybe I'm a female".
I finally chose to go back to being male, simply because I didn't pass for female in any conventional, physical sense and spent most of the time being harrassed by idiots. I'm someone who hates attention and I can't abide being noticed by people, so it was just simpler to revert to being male.
I guess if I'd physically passed for female I may have continued, but I'd say that rather than having any kind of burning need to be one gender or the other, I just felt apathetic to the whole thing and took the easiest route.

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I don't understand why people are making such a big deal of genders these days.

A lot of girls actually never wear make-up, never shave, etc and are still cis female. I see a lot of people saying that they're gender-neutral just because they aren't stereotypical girls/boys. For example, genderfluid enforce gender roles, as if wearing jeans make you a boy and wearing a dress make you a girl.

It feels like most of non-dysphoric people who changes their gender are people who wants to be special. Or maybe they're just teens going through puberty and questioning their identity, which happens a lot. They either want to stand out of the majority, or be part of a group, with people who are different than the norm.

But again, I cannot judge, since I've never been through dysphoria or have questioned my gender. This is simply my opinion, and it's completely fine if you don't agree with it.

Yea ... maybe you should sit this one out, ehh buddy??? I didn't learn the truth of my gender identity till I was 22 so how's that for a phase and a half??? Now granted I waited it out a few years to see if it actually was a phase because everyone knows the brain doesn't reach full maturity until age 25. At age 26 I am yet still a genderqueer person who claims neither and both genders at the same time and I'll be 27 in the fall.

Please calm down. I've never said that having a different gender that the one you were born as was wrong, and I've never said that everybody applied to what I said. If you're happy with you're gender, that's amazing ! I was talking about people using it as a trend, in order to make themselves feel special. I'm sorry if it wasn't well said. And I was talking about pre-teens and teens, not adults. And again, it's just my opinion.

Yes, maybe you should consider how you word something before you put it out there. The greatest thing about typing on forums is that its a lot easier to think about what you say before it comes out in your keystroke. Surely your "opinion" is only semi uneducated considering there probably are people who trend it up just to be different. But to me if someone literally insists that they are NOT male or female then I'm pretty sure they are not faking it. Maybe you should befriend some "non-binary" people and educate yourself a bit more for all that its worth.

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Regarding opinions on gender, none of them can be proven right in the whole grand scheme of things. You either agree to disagree, or take their words for it or pretend to take their words for it.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

I'm with Curved Air here. I feel more 'person ' than 'woman' or 'man'.....for someone with a woman's body, I dress in a non sexy, plain , trousers and t shirt/hoodie way, with shaved hair and trainers. Could pass for any, I guess. Don't care enough about gender to put on high heels and frilly dresses.

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cavalier080854

Gender as a construct is a relatively new concept. And wasn't even in existence when I left school in 1970. I was brought up in a world of biology (fact). There are only two genders. Male and female. You can have both. Biology and gender are not compatible ideologies. I've never understood it, nor the constant ever changing labelling of ever more miniscule problems caused by gender ideology. I'm all for being unique, but that is as a person, not a label. I'm male, happy with being male, don't want to change. See Camille Paglia on why biology should be reintroduced into gender to prevent further damage to the ideology.

I hope this is not pulled as I've tried to be constructive with my criticism.

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It isn't. That's mainly why I settled on agender. I don't care what I'm called, generally.

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ChillaKilla

Cavalier, your statement is inherently incorrect.

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just an owl

Gender as a construct is a relatively new concept. And wasn't even in existence when I left school in 1970. I was brought up in a world of biology (fact). There are only two genders. Male and female. You can have both. Biology and gender are not compatible ideologies. I've never understood it, nor the constant ever changing labelling of ever more miniscule problems caused by gender ideology. I'm all for being unique, but that is as a person, not a label. I'm male, happy with being male, don't want to change. See Camille Paglia on why biology should be reintroduced into gender to prevent further damage to the ideology.

I hope this is not pulled as I've tried to be constructive with my criticism.

[citation needed]

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My gender is more important to me than my sexuality, that's for sure.

When you get called the one pronoun you don't like and get treated like something you know you aren't for 18 years, you'll start caring.

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Perfectly Pointless

I don't really care about my gender that much, but that's easy for me to say, being a cis female. I can see that people with a different gender identity to the one they were born with (is that the correct way to put it? I'm bad at wording things politely >.>) might find that their gender identity is a lot more important to them.

Of course, there are things that confuse me about the changes in how gender is viewed, but that's just me, and the fact that it's hard to understand someone or something that you've never experienced yourself. If someone truly feels like they are a different gender, then why should anyone else stop them?

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Gender as a construct is a relatively new concept. And wasn't even in existence when I left school in 1970. I was brought up in a world of biology (fact). There are only two genders. Male and female. You can have both. Biology and gender are not compatible ideologies. I've never understood it, nor the constant ever changing labelling of ever more miniscule problems caused by gender ideology. I'm all for being unique, but that is as a person, not a label. I'm male, happy with being male, don't want to change. See Camille Paglia on why biology should be reintroduced into gender to prevent further damage to the ideology.

I hope this is not pulled as I've tried to be constructive with my criticism.

[citation needed]

Do you need citations for bullshit?

Clearly this is another sad case of sex =/= gender.

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Gender as a construct is a relatively new concept. And wasn't even in existence when I left school in 1970. I was brought up in a world of biology (fact). There are only two genders. Male and female. You can have both. Biology and gender are not compatible ideologies. I've never understood it, nor the constant ever changing labelling of ever more miniscule problems caused by gender ideology. I'm all for being unique, but that is as a person, not a label. I'm male, happy with being male, don't want to change. See Camille Paglia on why biology should be reintroduced into gender to prevent further damage to the ideology.

I hope this is not pulled as I've tried to be constructive with my criticism.

[citation needed]
Do you need citations for bullshit?

Clearly this is another sad case of sex =/= gender.

You mean Cavalier or his statement?

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  • 2 weeks later...
cavalier080854

First of all, I was brought up with Biology, so I am definitely Male (I have penis), this is never going to change. Humans have only 2 sexes, though you can have both sets of sex organs. Gender is a relatively new idea (approx. 25 years) and is a construct usually made by society. The two are not compatible. See Camille Paglia on why biology should be reintroduced to gender to avoid further ruination of the ideology. All gender does is put a label on an ever more miniscule distinction. Look at the mess going on with pronouns involving transgender, sueing people for using an ever changing terminology. Let us go back to a much simpler world, male and female. Problems over, but I don't think so, people will still prefer the chaos of gender and labels.

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cavalier080854

I have stopped putting citations with any discussions about intersectionality, feminism and gender. People don't read them. Ignore them. Ask for more citations, ask for even more citations ad infinitum. You can be so wedded to the ideology that you become blind to it's mistakes. As I have said biology and gender are not compatible. One is fact, the other is an ideology. Go and discuss with your local Biology department, they will give you a run for your money.

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i dont consider my gender important to me, and because of this i thought i was agender for a short period of time. i dont think i really fit the 'agender' label, but i have no strong feelings about my gender and just call myself a female (maybe the term cis-genderless would fit me, but i just dont really care enough to label myself anything other than the sex i was born w for simplicities sake lol)

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I'd be lying if I said that it isn't important for me, because I can see how much of a difference it's made for me living as a male vs as a female, I'm happier now, I can see myself dying of old age, I'm more comfortable with my body thanks to HRT, more comfortable with socializing since I'm treated as a regular guy... I'm just more comfortable now in general xD I think it's awesome when you feel that people treat you like you want to be treated and respect your identity, but most of all when you feel comfortable in your own skin.

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First of all, I was brought up with Biology, so I am definitely Male (I have penis), this is never going to change. Humans have only 2 sexes, though you can have both sets of sex organs. Gender is a relatively new idea (approx. 25 years) and is a construct usually made by society. The two are not compatible. See Camille Paglia on why biology should be reintroduced to gender to avoid further ruination of the ideology. All gender does is put a label on an ever more miniscule distinction. Look at the mess going on with pronouns involving transgender, sueing people for using an ever changing terminology. Let us go back to a much simpler world, male and female. Problems over, but I don't think so, people will still prefer the chaos of gender and labels.

Once again: biological sex isn't the same as gender. You're biologically male and identify as so by default, right? Gender is how your see yourself in your mind's eye, which your body may or may not reflect accurately. It's not a new idea, it's been around for millennia, it just didn't have a name until more recently.

Camille Paglia is a stuck up twat lost in outdated concepts. Quite frankly, if you want to follow her "teachings" then so be it, but don't suggest other people do the same.

Why do you suggest going back to a "simpler world"? Would you prefer it if transgender people didn't exist? They don't sue people over "ever changing terminology", they sue people for using the incorrect pronouns. Big difference.

Oh, and as a geneticist who was also "brought up with biology", do the world a favour and don't be so patronising.

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I really don't know. Somedays i´am somewhat confortable with my body/self. And somedays it just feels weird and a bit wrong when i look in the mirror. I consider myself Cis but as i said earlier somedays it don´t feel right.

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With regards to the conversation about biological sex and gender, and whether gender is an ideology or something else: let's not derail this thread please. This thread is about gender, not sex. If anyone wishes to discuss the differences between gender and sex, and what gender is, then please feel free to start a new thread. If you anticipate it being a heated discussion, please do so in Hot Box. Cool discussions are still welcome here in the Gender forum.

Heart

Gender Discussion Moderator

Edited a bit out. Sorry all, I usually think more about how I phrase my green posts, but it's been a long day.

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