Question About Religious Worship

[Chrysocolla Dawn]

Hi Again!

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, the sort that sweeps and swoops through all sorts of different topics.

Eventually, we came to the subject of going to church. I'm happy for my friend that he finds a lot of good value in attending church, but I've never really felt inclined to continue going. I've tried various ones, and some were much nicer than others, but the end result was always that I didn't stick with it.

The way he explained why he goes, was that he believes God wants that. In his exact words, "God wants fans, not just people who feel obligated to be there, but people who are super excited to be there worshiping." It sounds nice, and I wouldn't argue with him about that, but it got me onto an interesting thought.

It seems weird to me to assume that God, who is believed to be infinite in all ways, wants or needs constant fan praise. The whole idea feels kind of like projection of human concepts. We want praise for good things we do, of course it's nice to be noticed and complimented. I just don't know if I can agree that God would be concerned about that at all. With all that he's done, and all that there is, it seems like the smallest drop in the bucket to get heavily repeated praise from people.

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to look at it, but that's what I was wondering about. Does anyone else wanna weigh in on this?

[Lana Overland]

I think of it more as a place where people collect for community and good deeds, as a person who believes in science, christianity, and superstitions, I find it easier to believe that God is an idea created by people to outline how to be a good society and to connect people together (which granted isn't a very religious view). It's more about feeling that you're a part of something and believing in forgiveness and love. As for the worship, well... Eh? Praising is one of those really weird things in the bible that sticks out to some christians and is ignored by others. The reason one would worship and praise God is to humble yourself and reduce selfishness, but I think as long as you're doing good by god or actuvely pursuing a better path it's none of God's concern if he's praised. I think your friend is trying to say that God (in whatever form you believe in) wants you to actively follow his will and doing charity instead of being there to say you are associated with people who are doing charity.

[Chrysocolla Dawn]

That's a very good way of explaining it, thank you for replying!

[Jme]

It seems weird to me to assume that God, who is believed to be infinite in all ways, wants or needs constant fan praise.

It seems odd to me that your friend used the word "fan". I think we have to be careful not to take everything people say at face-value when it comes to topics like these, as they are likely still learning and growing themselves and won't always hit the nail on the head even if they mean well.

I think what he was probably getting at is that God desires a relationship with you. He certainly doesn't "need" praise, as you said -- he doesn't NEED anything from us -- but a lot of people find that worship is a way for them to "experience" God and to grow in that relationship with him, so ultimately, God desires worship because he desires a close relationship with you, not because he just likes the sound of his own name. Not that worship is the only way to develop that relationship, but I've definitely seen people go through very spiritual experiences through worship. And even then, worship doesn't have to mean singing pop Jesus songs in the pews. For example, I 'experience' God far more deeply and personally by reading scientific literature than I do by reciting the lyrics to "Jesus Loves Me" (I'm currently reading "God & The Multiverse" by John M. Kinson -- not to be confused with a book of the same title by Victor Stenger -- who is an ex-atheist who approaches the topic of God from the perspective of the specific makeup of our universe following the big bang and the fine-tuning required to perpetuate existence following that event) -- and the way that I encounter God through reading this type of stuff is just a different form of worship.

To draw a common parallel, think of it like a father moving toward his child with open arms; all he wants is for the child to come into his embrace. He won't force himself upon the child, but he desires for the child to come to him and be embraced so that they might feel loved, accepted, and safe. That is why God desires worship -- worship is an act of running into God's arms and accepting his embrace (his love) that he wants so much to give to us so that we can feel his love and acceptance, and so we can feel safe. Like any good father, he isn't picky...unlike conservative Christians, he isn't going to reject you because you're black, white, gay, straight, asexual, trans, fans, obligatory patrons, atheists, whatever; he just wants to show you how much he loves you, exactly the way you are. That's why he wants worship.

[Amedot]

Everyone interprets things differently. I don't see it as God needing fans, I see it as God wanting people to be happy in following the right path. It's important to genuinely want to be a better person, to help your community, to ease suffering, to be a loving, compassionate person, etc. That's how I see it.

(even tho I'm atheist shh)

[SirEl]

I ended up growing up to believe that God is more like a selfless lover to humans and cares about us whether or not we make mistakes with unconditional love. Whether we don't go to Church or don't believe in him he'll still look out for us but also with the burden of not being able to interfere with our lives. He doesn't need praise because he doesn't depend on other people to make himself feel good about himself just like humans supposedly should.

Just a thought. ^_^

[Tyger Songbird]

It seems weird to me to assume that God, who is believed to be infinite in all ways, wants or needs constant fan praise.

It seems odd to me that your friend used the word "fan". I think we have to be careful not to take everything people say at face-value when it comes to topics like these, as they are likely still learning and growing themselves and won't always hit the nail on the head even if they mean well.

I think what he was probably getting at is that God desires a relationship with you. He certainly doesn't "need" praise, as you said -- he doesn't NEED anything from us -- but a lot of people find that worship is a way for them to "experience" God and to grow in that relationship with him, so ultimately, God desires worship because he desires a close relationship with you, not because he just likes the sound of his own name. Not that worship is the only way to develop that relationship, but I've definitely seen people go through very spiritual experiences through worship. And even then, worship doesn't have to mean singing pop Jesus songs in the pews. For example, I 'experience' God far more deeply and personally by reading scientific literature than I do by reciting the lyrics to "Jesus Loves Me" (I'm currently reading "God & The Multiverse" by John M. Kinson -- not to be confused with a book of the same title by Victor Stenger -- who is an ex-atheist who approaches the topic of God from the perspective of the specific makeup of our universe following the big bang and the fine-tuning required to perpetuate existence following that event) -- and the way that I encounter God through reading this type of stuff is just a different form of worship.

To draw a common parallel, think of it like a father moving toward his child with open arms; all he wants is for the child to come into his embrace. He won't force himself upon the child, but he desires for the child to come to him and be embraced so that they might feel loved, accepted, and safe. That is why God desires worship -- worship is an act of running into God's arms and accepting his embrace (his love) that he wants so much to give to us so that we can feel his love and acceptance, and so we can feel safe. Like any good father, he isn't picky...unlike conservative Christians, he isn't going to reject you because you're black, white, gay, straight, asexual, trans, fans, obligatory patrons, atheists, whatever; he just wants to show you how much he loves you, exactly the way you are. That's why he wants worship.

Yeah, I don't like using the word "fan". I echo what was said here on it more being relationship-oriented than anything. I think the better word I like to use is fellowship. When I am close to someone, I tend to take on a bit of the mannerisms, actions, sayings, and all in a sense likeness whether in persona or genetics like my parents. It is that kind of fellowship that leads to my actions. My actions don't warrant or gain love from God, but rather my actions are because I am loved by God. I could quote a whole lot of Christian Bible verses speaking on that same subject, but think of it like being a tree on good soil.

The tree will grow up strong on good soil as it takes in that soil's nutrients. Eventually, the nutrients produce the fruit on the tree, and it will retain its roots as it grows, helping it maintain its vitality longer. People can tend to be the same way. If they are made and rooted on good roots, they can grow strong and good fruits come out of that. That's what fellowship is to me. I am in fellowship with God who I as a believer believe is a loving God who desires nothing but for me to be his Beloved son. However, not only that, I am in fellowship with people who desire to do the right things and will help "edify" or bring those out in me as well. That's what church attendance is supposed to be, not just some punch card or holiness meter. I honestly get upset when people dumb it down to that level, but I guess love your enemies, right? Well, I hope that helps in any way. I tried my best.

[Perissodactyla]

"For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me.

There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear.

And I declare that he who studies this sacred conversation worships Me by his intelligence.

And one who listens with faith and without envy becomes free from sinful reaction and attains to the planets where the pious dwell."

Bhagavad Gita

[The Maple Leaf Forever]

The Abrahamic god is a fictional character who is worshipped by many different denominations. Different sects and theologians see him in different ways. To some, he is a slave driver who demands praise under threat of damnation; to others he is so wonderful that it's just natural to praise him, while to others, you praise him not because he needs it, but because it's for your own good. As a formerly religious person who always found it all suspect, had doubts about it all, and finally realized it was nothing but different people's takes on the fairy tales of a semi-literate bronze age tribe, I'm glad I no longer need to waste time praising a non-existent spirit.

[dissolved]

See, if I was god, I wouldn't want people to pay attention to me. Sure, I'd intervene and mess with humans a la Zeus, but I'd ultimately leave them alone to provide me with entertainment.

Wanting to be worshipped and praised just seems so... human. And selfish, egotistical, etc. I don't understand why this supposedly all powerful being is obsessed with reverence to the point of using it to dictate who does and doesn't get into magical heaven with your fluffy clouds/seven virgins/whatever flavour floats your boat.

But then again, that's probably the reason why religion is completely absent from my life.

[Guest]

It seems weird to me to assume that God, who is believed to be infinite in all ways, wants or needs constant fan praise. The whole idea feels kind of like projection of human concepts. We want praise for good things we do, of course it's nice to be noticed and complimented. I just don't know if I can agree that God would be concerned about that at all. With all that he's done, and all that there is, it seems like the smallest drop in the bucket to get heavily repeated praise from people.

Yep. To want something - anything at all, whatever it is - implies that you feel a lack of that something. And I feel that any deity small and confned enough to experienced such a lack is too small and confined to be worthy of my reverence... the whole point of believing in a Higher Power is to be able to look up to something that is free from all those petty constraints and experiences of lack that we mere mortals are bound to. A God Who Needs Prayer Badly is too petty a creature to qualify for getting it from me, sorry. To receive, you must already have in infinite abundance. :p

And don't get me started about divine morality. IMO, the supreme One Who Is All does not judge. He/she/it/they just accepts and loves - non-judgmentally, universally, unconditionally, amorally. (One of the most beautiful coincidences of language is that "amorality" includes the word "amor", love, even though these words are not etymologically related. ^_^ )

[Splatacus]

Moving to Philosophy, Politics and Science

Splatacus

Off-A Moderator

[Skipper Valvoline]

I find the use of the word 'fan' in this case highly amusing because there's a popular Christian study book called "Not a Fan" that talks about how God doesn't want fans but followers. I recommend it to your friend.

[anzu2snow]

In Judaism, we're expected to 'wrestle with G-d', so saying that G-d needs fans is kind of a foreign concept. For us, going to shul or the synagogue is a way to get closer to him (G-d doesn't technically have a gender, but using whatever pronoun we're comfortable with makes it easier to talk about), be with community, show gratitude for what has happened during the week (it's a learning/growth experience even if negative things happened), study Torah, debate Torah, grateful we've made it to another week, celebrate life in general, pray to have the strength or courage to do some things (not really wishing for stuff), etc. There are many reasons. Many of them might not have anything to do with G-d. You can actually be atheist and still be a Jew. I'm not atheist myself, though.

[SorryNotSorry]

"God wants fans, not just people who feel obligated to be there, but people who are super excited to be there worshiping." It sounds nice, and I wouldn't argue with him about that, but it got me onto an interesting thought.

It seems weird to me to assume that God, who is believed to be infinite in all ways, wants or needs constant fan praise. The whole idea feels kind of like projection of human concepts. We want praise for good things we do, of course it's nice to be noticed and complimented. I just don't know if I can agree that God would be concerned about that at all. With all that he's done, and all that there is, it seems like the smallest drop in the bucket to get heavily repeated praise from people.

I'm sure there's plenty of ways to look at it, but that's what I was wondering about. Does anyone else wanna weigh in on this?

Maybe it's just me, but the only context in which I can understand worship is that it's some kind of put-and-take system... if God doesn't receive all that worship, he'll somehow lose his divinity, and get broken down to a legend. Then He won't be able to dispense the occasional miracle, hijack mortals' bodies, induce hallucinations, etc.