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butterflydreams

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butterflydreams

I recently linked up with an actually-local (not 30 miles away-local) trans group. They meet once a month and it's pretty laid back. Just a few people who come, hang out, meet each other, maybe chat about goings on. I was really proud of myself for going last month. I figured, "hey, you can't keep complaining about being alone if you're not doing anything to change that."

I expected to be a trans neophyte there, but to my surprise, I was actually one of the most out, transitioned people there. Which was disappointing in a way. I don't see myself as very far along, and I was hoping maybe there'd be people there with more experience. I didn't expect to be answering questions about what it was like to be out at work, or how I just walked there from my car dressed like I was.

There's another meet coming up soon, and I'm sure I'll go, but I have to be honest, a lot of it rubbed me the wrong way. I got a kind of vibe there that gender should be "broken down" and the binary was "just a stupid construction". Personally, I don't care if you feel that way, but I don't, and I feel attacked like "why are you trying to be a 'regular' woman when you could be a non-binary woman gender trapezoid?" Um, because I'm not trying to be anything, this is just who I am. You do you and I'll support you, but please, it's a two way street :unsure:

Or someone telling me that people shouting at me while I'm riding my bike is "what it's like being a woman." Yeah, I guess if you're a misogynist who thinks women are helpless delicate flowers. I'm not a helpless delicate flower, and I don't friggin appreciate the insinuation that I am one. I told them I'd rather just learn to shoot and strap a gun to my bike and solve the problem entirely.

Ugh, I guess I was just hoping (foolishly?) that it would be a bunch of normal people, like me. People with individual thoughts, feelings and beliefs. There's a lot of groupthink in trans and just queer circles in general and I don't like it. Being trans DOESN'T define me. It's just this one thing, that's admittedly really hard sometimes, but I'm soooo much more than that. We all are. I'll keep going to these groups for as long as I can tolerate it, but it's so disappointing :(

I really need to make friends and build community in real life. It's been so hard. I can't really afford to just dump this social group. Thoughts or ideas?

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Fire Monkey

This might not be helpful, Hadley, and if it isn't, I'm sorry. Did you get a sense that there were some ground rules in place to prevent what happened to you? Because there should be, I think. Is there a mod you can ask? Also, are they a discussion group? or a support group? Maybe you would enjoy one but not the other?

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butterflydreams

I got the impression that it was a support group. On that front, it was extremely welcoming at first, and I was certainly glad for that fact. I don't really feel like any of this stuff was intentional, but it's that groupthink mindset that prevents people from remembering that there are other experiences out there. Hence the disappointment.

The "breaking down gender" vibe thing was something I was really concerned about. I have no interest in gender politics. To me, transition is like taking medicine to solve any other problem. Just because you're taking antidepressants doesn't mean to have to become an activist for depression. Break down gender if you want, but all I'm trying to do is reduce my discomfort, and live a happier life. That's it.

Just because I'm trans doesn't mean I'm automatically a Bernie lover (even in the state of VT), or that I'm super into activism, or anything like that. I like cars. I like riding my bike. I like cooking and gardening. I actually had a question I wrote down before going last time, that maybe I'll ask next time:

"I really like going camping in state parks. It's something I've always done as a kid, and now that I'm finally feeling better about myself, and happier with life, I'd like to do it again. But I'm concerned about the bathrooms at the parks themselves. Vermont as a state is pretty cool, but the parks are popular with people from all over. What should I do?" But we never got to a point where I could ask about that :(

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Okay, this may sound like I'm just criticizing you, but I swear I'm not just critiquing and when I am critical I'm hoping I'm constructive.

Ugh, I guess I was just hoping (foolishly?) that it would be a bunch of normal people, like me. People with individual thoughts, feelings and beliefs. There's a lot of groupthink in trans and just queer circles in general and I don't like it. Being trans DOESN'T define me. It's just this one thing, that's admittedly really hard sometimes, but I'm soooo much more than that. We all are. I'll keep going to these groups for as long as I can tolerate it, but it's so disappointing :(

I honestly think you're probably both a bit in the wrong here. A lot of your problem is that you want the other people in the group to see you as yourself and not pressure you to be someone else - whether that's a Bernie supporter or an activist gender radical or what have you. This is entirely reasonable.

But make sure you're doing the same for them. Maybe you are, but just judging from your words here, it sounds like you might not be being entirely fair.

You know all of this rationally, but just a reminder in case your gut hasn't caught up with your rational thoughts: being trans doesn't define them either. If it seems like it, that's probably because you know them only from this trans support group, one of the few places in their lives where they can focus on this aspect of them. You all have individual thoughts, feelings, and beliefs, and you all are so much more than just trans people, and you're not going to get anything close fully rounded pictures of these people from one meeting. Just as you aren't at fault for being like them - or how you perceive them to be - they aren't at fault for not being like you. You don't need to be a Bernie-touting activist, and they don't need to be more mild-mannered, and neither of you should feel like you have to pretend you're someone else in a group like this or face any shame for who you are. And you say you're normal, but you're not actually more normal than them. I, Kappamaki, am blessed by providence to be the only individual who gets to dictate what's normal and what isn't, and I decreed many years ago that humans are all weirdos in different ways. Especially you, since you've had multiple interactions with me.

(Yes, those last two sentences also apply to the "You know all of this rationally" claim I've made and are meant literally.)

But also, if things just don't work with this group, you don't need to keep going. There's no responsibility there and you can stop (and restart) whenever. Sometimes people just don't mesh well, regardless of good intentions and hospitality, and if this isn't the group for you, it isn't the group for you. To steal a cliché from romance stories and apply it to another context, there are other fish in the sea.

... I think. I actually know very little about how many trans support-type fish there are in your locality. Probably just this one, ruining my appropriation of piscine romance clichés. Whatever. Vermont's landlocked, anyways.

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butterflydreams

Kappa, you're definitely right. I try really hard to make sure I'm not doing the same to them, and I can almost be assured that I won't simply on account of my shy quiet nature. But I see what you're saying, and I'll definitely be conscious of that.

It's tough. A lot of people in things like this are speaking a totally foreign language to me. At least this group didn't fall down the sexually charged rabbit hole like so many of the broader LGBT group events I've gone to. It was close, but I spoke up. And sure, of course people like this have the right to one space where they can be themselves, but can't I too? I feel just as much an outsider at these things as they probably feel in day to day life.

I'll concede that saying I'm normal (or implied more normal than them) probably wasn't what I was really trying to convey. I'm objectively not normal, and I know that. It hurts, I hate it, all I want is to just be normal, but I'm not :( I think my real feelings were more like, "how come there's never anybody who's more or less like me?"

Hehe, I liked your romance cliché. Yeah, it's definitely the only one. Of this type anyway. But another social avenue being closed down? I'd be hard pressed to not feel really discouraged by that.

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There is not much I can say, except that I accept you for who you are! And I am sure many others here do too!

Some people are binary, some are not. Both are just trying to express themselves and be happy. Happiness for some means having a cause to fight for, and for others like you it is a simple bike ride or working on your car. In the end, that is what we all want isn't it? To be ourselves and try and find what makes us happy?

And I think what makes us happy, and what we value, defines us far more than anything else. To strip it down to just one trait gives people a distorted of who one is. We are more than the sum of our parts.

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butterflydreams

So I actually brought this up in a larger context of stuff at therapy today. She made the good and valid point that the part of going that I hadn't expected (being further transitioned than other people, having more experience being out in the world, etc) was what I should focus on. In its own right, that's pretty cool, and it says something about how far I've come that I should be proud of.

And also that there was a lot of meta stuff about the group that would be beneficial. Like the fact that I reached out and went at all. As long as I can continue to tolerate it, there's value in going, basically because it's not nothing.

I guess let it never be said that I don't try. Coming off another round of rejections, romantic and familial (my mom again), I just want to feel like I'm not defective, and that I have a place.

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There's another meet coming up soon, and I'm sure I'll go, but I have to be honest, a lot of it rubbed me the wrong way. I got a kind of vibe there that gender should be "broken down" and the binary was "just a stupid construction". Personally, I don't care if you feel that way, but I don't, and I feel attacked like "why are you trying to be a 'regular' woman when you could be a non-binary woman gender trapezoid?" Um, because I'm not trying to be anything, this is just who I am. You do you and I'll support you, but please, it's a two way street :unsure:

Or someone telling me that people shouting at me while I'm riding my bike is "what it's like being a woman." Yeah, I guess if you're a misogynist who thinks women are helpless delicate flowers. I'm not a helpless delicate flower, and I don't friggin appreciate the insinuation that I am one. I told them I'd rather just learn to shoot and strap a gun to my bike and solve the problem entirely.

Ugh, I guess I was just hoping (foolishly?) that it would be a bunch of normal people, like me. People with individual thoughts, feelings and beliefs. There's a lot of groupthink in trans and just queer circles in general and I don't like it. Being trans DOESN'T define me. It's just this one thing, that's admittedly really hard sometimes, but I'm soooo much more than that. We all are. I'll keep going to these groups for as long as I can tolerate it, but it's so disappointing :(

I really need to make friends and build community in real life. It's been so hard. I can't really afford to just dump this social group. Thoughts or ideas?

YES!! I could not "yes" this hard enough! I actually do consider myself non-binary/genderfluid, not to mention all of the other things I am (you know the ones I mean), and yet cannot for the life of me find groups of fellow LGBT/otherwise non-normative folks without half or more of them turning out to be walking Tumblr memes and/or angry radfems who wouldn't dare associate themselves with someone like me without picking a fight! It's like, being trans/ace/poly/whatever is important to me, but I don't find kindred spirits in a lot of these circles either. It's tough being in between worlds, but you aren't alone. Maybe try and look for another group?

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There's another meet coming up soon, and I'm sure I'll go, but I have to be honest, a lot of it rubbed me the wrong way. I got a kind of vibe there that gender should be "broken down" and the binary was "just a stupid construction". Personally, I don't care if you feel that way, but I don't, and I feel attacked like "why are you trying to be a 'regular' woman when you could be a non-binary woman gender trapezoid?" Um, because I'm not trying to be anything, this is just who I am. You do you and I'll support you, but please, it's a two way street :unsure:

As far as the whole "uphold vs de-construct the gender binary" tension... well, from a mod's perspective, that's a really hard one to work with. The nonbinary folks will always feel like there's too much emphasis on binary in the world, because any emphasis on the binary feels counter to who they are. But the more binary folks like yourself often find comfort in the binary, because that's a part of who you are and how you express youself, and feel that when the binary is attacked and de-constructed it's like someone is directly stealing a tool for your own identity. Which makes it very hard, on both sides, to not take it at least a little personally.

I'm sorry that such a tension made it feel less comfortable to you. I really am. And I know that AVEN sometimes does the same thing, where nonbinary folks get a bit carried away with the whole "down with the binary" sentiment. I try to balance this place as best I can, but the truth is, nothing is perfect. Everyone comes here with good intentions, and I guess that's often the best we can do.

I have no golden answer. I wish I did. Instead, can I offer you a hug? *warm hugs*

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Mezzo Forte

I just went to a trans group last night, and for me at least, the gesture of going at all felt significant, so I can see your therapist's more meta points, Hadley. The meta things were a bigger deal to me since I'm not really out to the world, so being able to refer to myself by my chosen name or feeling comfortable using the men's restroom is a bigger deal to me than it might be to someone who is further along. Still, it's hard not to feel a little mixed about the meetups.

I came across a fair amount of vocal activists as well, though I imagine that activists are more likely to seek out these kinds of groups anyways. (One thing that was weird though was that one of the activists I talked to used the wrong pronouns to refer to me even while knowing that I'm on T.) Some of the activists were trying to get me to like their Facebook page or something, but I don't really post on social media at all and I 1) don't want to out myself and 2) don't really like getting involved in politics via social media in particular.

Honestly, I don't like making being trans into a big part of my identity, so it was weird having transition stuff as the only common ground. I'm much more in my element when I'm around musicians, especially because people are quick to misunderstand percussion in particular. ("Yes, part of what I do involves playing triangle and tambourine, and no, they're not as simple as they may seem.") It was still interesting to talk nonchalantly about transition, but it just felt like there was only that and stilted small talk.

I also don't think I came across a lot of people my age or on anywhere near a similar life path as me. (Admittedly, it was interesting going from chatting with an older nonbinary person one moment to meeting a 13-year-old panromantic asexual transman the next.) Still, I think I had some guilt being so candid about how fortunate I am, as some of the people there really seemed to see a ton of adversity. I can sense the sort of envy some of of the older trans people seemed to have towards the younger folks, and it felt weird to have that envy seem directed at me too.

I know I'm rambling, but I hope that sharing my own experiences doesn't go too far off topic. Part of me wonders if going to a university trans group might eventually help me at least find people who are at a similar point in their lives, but attending general university LGBT+ groups never really did much for me in the past, so I'll just give all of these groups a decent shot so I can tell whether or not they're really for me. Honestly, getting as much support as I do on AVEN, (especially from Hadley and everyone on the TransWhatevers thread,) not to mention the love and acceptance of my closest friends and family, having an IRL trans group isn't really a huge deal for me.

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I wonder if anyone who's gone to a trans group has also gone to an ace meetup? I'd be curious if there are any big differences. I only go to the ace meets in my local area, I've never been to a trans one.

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butterflydreams

As far as the whole "uphold vs de-construct the gender binary" tension... well, from a mod's perspective, that's a really hard one to work with. The nonbinary folks will always feel like there's too much emphasis on binary in the world, because any emphasis on the binary feels counter to who they are. But the more binary folks like yourself often find comfort in the binary, because that's a part of who you are and how you express youself, and feel that when the binary is attacked and de-constructed it's like someone is directly stealing a tool for your own identity. Which makes it very hard, on both sides, to not take it at least a little personally.

I'm sorry that such a tension made it feel less comfortable to you. I really am. And I know that AVEN sometimes does the same thing, where nonbinary folks get a bit carried away with the whole "down with the binary" sentiment. I try to balance this place as best I can, but the truth is, nothing is perfect. Everyone comes here with good intentions, and I guess that's often the best we can do.

I have no golden answer. I wish I did. Instead, can I offer you a hug? *warm hugs*

Sure, and I hope nobody here thinks I've got anything against non-binary people at all. I definitely don't. As I'm often saying, it's hard for me to understand, but only because it's not my experience. I like hearing from those people, and in a certain way, was relieved that there were some at this group. Their presence means it's not an old-school trans environment that's rigid and pushy (I'm thinking along the lines of things Calligraphette has told me about). I think I just take the "down with the binary" a little personally. Being non-binary is fine, but proselytizing it out so that no one can be binary isn't very nice. I hope that my own actions reflect my feelings about this (from the other side). Are you non-binary? Cool, I'll gladly have your back. Are you binary? Cool, I'll have your back too.

Once again, AVEN is kind of an oasis that really doesn't seem to suffer this problem. Not to any noticeable extent (to me anyway). I think that's part of what makes it feel so welcoming to me. Even if people here do express frustration with the binary, I've never been made to feel like I'm bad or not "progressive" enough for sticking to it. And people here are incredibly receptive if you bring up the fact that, "hey, binary genders work really well for some people." So, good on the people of gender discussions on AVEN :)

I just went to a trans group last night, and for me at least, the gesture of going at all felt significant, so I can see your therapist's more meta points, Hadley. The meta things were a bigger deal to me since I'm not really out to the world, so being able to refer to myself by my chosen name or feeling comfortable using the men's restroom is a bigger deal to me than it might be to someone who is further along. Still, it's hard not to feel a little mixed about the meetups.

I came across a fair amount of vocal activists as well, though I imagine that activists are more likely to seek out these kinds of groups anyways. (One thing that was weird though was that one of the activists I talked to used the wrong pronouns to refer to me even while knowing that I'm on T.) Some of the activists were trying to get me to like their Facebook page or something, but I don't really post on social media at all and I 1) don't want to out myself and 2) don't really like getting involved in politics via social media in particular.

Honestly, I don't like making being trans into a big part of my identity, so it was weird having transition stuff as the only common ground. I'm much more in my element when I'm around musicians, especially because people are quick to misunderstand percussion in particular. ("Yes, part of what I do involves playing triangle and tambourine, and no, they're not as simple as they may seem.") It was still interesting to talk nonchalantly about transition, but it just felt like there was only that and stilted small talk.

I also don't think I came across a lot of people my age or on anywhere near a similar life path as me. (Admittedly, it was interesting going from chatting with an older nonbinary person one moment to meeting a 13-year-old panromantic asexual transman the next.) Still, I think I had some guilt being so candid about how fortunate I am, as some of the people there really seemed to see a ton of adversity. I can sense the sort of envy some of of the older trans people seemed to have towards the younger folks, and it felt weird to have that envy seem directed at me too.

I know I'm rambling, but I hope that sharing my own experiences doesn't go too far off topic. Part of me wonders if going to a university trans group might eventually help me at least find people who are at a similar point in their lives, but attending general university LGBT+ groups never really did much for me in the past, so I'll just give all of these groups a decent shot so I can tell whether or not they're really for me. Honestly, getting as much support as I do on AVEN, (especially from Hadley and everyone on the TransWhatevers thread,) not to mention the love and acceptance of my closest friends and family, having an IRL trans group isn't really a huge deal for me.

Wow, Mezzo, it's too interesting that you had such a similar experience. I love that you're here and can share your feelings on the experience. I feel like you and I are pretty similar people, and it's nice to know I'm not alone :)

I've certainly considered that maybe this group just isn't for me. Maybe being trans isn't enough of who I am for a group like this to make any sense for me. But the reality is that even if I just hopped into some random meetup, my being trans is going to come up. And in some random meetup, it's a total wildcard. Maybe that's what I should be doing though. Maybe if I see some cruise night (a night where car enthusiasts get together, bring their cars and chat about cars) I could just go to that. But I'm not super passable. Would that throw a wrench into all random groups?

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I'll concede that saying I'm normal (or implied more normal than them) probably wasn't what I was really trying to convey. I'm objectively not normal, and I know that. It hurts, I hate it, all I want is to just be normal, but I'm not :(

Oho, so my super-inspirational take on normality being nonexistent and you being a weirdo wasn't at all helpful to you and was actually kind of detrimental? I apologize. Let us resort to the wisdom of others whom I find inspirational.

普通なんて物は他の誰かが作り上げる物じゃない。自分が自分で決める物だ。

"Others don't get to dictate what's normal and what isn't. It's something we decide for ourselves."

You know who said that?

tumblr_mxhnmz6q7k1shk0gjo1_500.gif

And you should take his advice. I mean, just look at the guy. That's a face you can trust.

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Mezzo Forte

Wow, Mezzo, it's too interesting that you had such a similar experience. I love that you're here and can share your feelings on the experience. I feel like you and I are pretty similar people, and it's nice to know I'm not alone :)

I've certainly considered that maybe this group just isn't for me. Maybe being trans isn't enough of who I am for a group like this to make any sense for me. But the reality is that even if I just hopped into some random meetup, my being trans is going to come up. And in some random meetup, it's a total wildcard. Maybe that's what I should be doing though. Maybe if I see some cruise night (a night where car enthusiasts get together, bring their cars and chat about cars) I could just go to that. But I'm not super passable. Would that throw a wrench into all random groups?

We definitely seem to be kindred spirits in some regards, Hadley. :) Honestly, I always flourished better in one-on-one interactions than I ever did with groups, so it's always nice being able to talk to someone with a similar way of thinking!

What you say about trans meetups, I remember really feeling when I organized asexual meetups. My orientation never really felt like a big part of my identity, so there just wasn't enough in common to make the meetups anything other than kinda stilted. (Heck, I barely post in most the asexuality topics on here anymore because I just don't feel like I have much to say as the same old topics cycle through AVEN.) Although there are some potential benefits for me attending the trans meetups right now, they're less about the groups and more about developing my confidence in IRL situations, but while gender is very relevant to my life right now, it's not a huge part of my identity.

Honestly, I think a cruise night sounds like a great idea with how much you enjoy your car. :) I can't say that I know the area you live in, but I'm guessing Vermont tends to lean liberal, so I don't think you'd have to worry too much about gender/passing affecting your experience! I know that you pass better than you think you do, and even if people wondered, most have no clue how to ask anyways. (And who knows? Maybe there's other trans car enthusiasts in the area who aren't so crazy about trans groups either!) Perhaps these more random meetups will do more for your confidence than a trans meetup could, as you can navigate being yourself while exploring something you really enjoy. If you don't mind forgiving a little gaming nerd thinking, The trans meetup could be the boring tutorial that you just slogged through before getting to the good stuff like the cruise night :lol:

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I wonder if anyone who's gone to a trans group has also gone to an ace meetup? I'd be curious if there are any big differences. I only go to the ace meets in my local area, I've never been to a trans one.

I've only ever been to ace meetups, though I'm curious for this as well. I know there's a youth (up to 30) trans group in my town, but they don't respond to my emails, so I haven't been there yet.

This prompted me to look at when their next meet is: it's this Sunday. They're having a picnic in the park not 5 minutes from my house. I hope I can go there.

Now I'm even more curious what it could be like.

I'm not sure where I stand on upholding vs desconstructing the gender binary. I know I don't fall in either side of the binary, so I'd like to have the option of being neither. I also understand that for other it can be just as important to be able to identify as one or the other. Can we not just have both? That would be nice. :)

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butterflydreams

Although there are some potential benefits for me attending the trans meetups right now, they're less about the groups and more about developing my confidence in IRL situations, but while gender is very relevant to my life right now, it's not a huge part of my identity.

This is exactly why I ever sought them out in the first place myself, to help have a place to build IRL situation confidence. But wouldn't you know it...I was always too afraid to go to trans groups before I had gotten to a certain point in my transition. I've built up that IRL confidence largely on my own, carving out piece by piece by piece of my world. So using trans groups as a way to safely attain that confidence is largely moot for me at this point.

Honestly, I think a cruise night sounds like a great idea with how much you enjoy your car. :) I can't say that I know the area you live in, but I'm guessing Vermont tends to lean liberal, so I don't think you'd have to worry too much about gender/passing affecting your experience! I know that you pass better than you think you do, and even if people wondered, most have no clue how to ask anyways. (And who knows? Maybe there's other trans car enthusiasts in the area who aren't so crazy about trans groups either!) Perhaps these more random meetups will do more for your confidence than a trans meetup could, as you can navigate being yourself while exploring something you really enjoy. If you don't mind forgiving a little gaming nerd thinking, The trans meetup could be the boring tutorial that you just slogged through before getting to the good stuff like the cruise night :lol:

:) Thanks! This gives me a bit of a confidence boost that hey, maybe you can just go to meetups that you like. Maybe that's the kind of confidence I need to build. And you're right, Vermont doesn't have many places where I'd catch any crap. To be honest, the primary meetup that I try to go to these days is just an LGBT social group. It's mostly people way outside my age range (older lesbians mostly), but it's way less LGBT-focused and more just social-group-focused. Which is nice. You get the social group benefit AND the safety of knowing it's an LGBT group...no one there is gonna give you a hard time.
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