For those who are non-cis, I have a question.

[R_1]

I know I been here, and I have heard the idea that cis people say the reason why they think they don't feel a gender is because their internal sense of gender aligns really well with who they are. In this census... - http://lesswrong.com/lw/lhg/2014_survey_results/

There's a result that indicates two potential categories of cis-individuals

Gender Default
I only identify with my birth gender by default: 681, 45.3%
I strongly identify with my birth gender: 586, 39.0%

According to here, it seems that the majority of cis-individuals do not have a strong sense of gender, and it's entirely possible many of them even lack a internal sense of gender. The first one is cis-by-default/cis-genderless, and the other is certain that they actually feel that way.

My question is do you actually believe that every cis-individuals have a internal sense of gender? And for those who do, what if it is proven beyond doubt that you're wrong, and perhaps not every cis-individuals do? What if it proven beyond doubt that every cis-individuals have a internal sense of gender, then in that case, do you think that some cis-individuals will even get it?

[Guest]

It makes sense to me that people who don't feel any conflict/dysphoria/etc. between their physical sex and their gender identity - i.e., cis folks - wouldn't neccessarily perceive gender as a major, meaningful concept in their life. They simply have no urgent incentive to notice it, unlike trans* and NB folks, who are pretty much confronted with it on a daily basis.

So, yeah, these numbers don't particularly surprise me, even when I can't personally relate to them. :)

[MoraDollie]

Here's honestly the truth of the matter: people in a lot of places are programmed to NOT critically think. If you really start to think about "well...do I REALLY fit the stereotypical view of what's feminine/masculine in my culture???" that's when you start getting question marks, people questioning things, etc. I believe a good chunk of people never put a lot of philosophical thought into it. About what makes us "us". At first I identified as genderfluid, but then I thought more about it and felt I had a very strong connection to femininity, so I felt demigirl fitted me better.

[R_1]

Here's honestly the truth of the matter: people in a lot of places are programmed to NOT critically think. If you really start to think about "well...do I REALLY fit the stereotypical view of what's feminine/masculine in my culture???" that's when you start getting question marks, people questioning things, etc. I believe a good chunk of people never put a lot of philosophical thought into it. About what makes us "us". At first I identified as genderfluid, but then I thought more about it and felt I had a very strong connection to femininity, so I felt demigirl fitted me better.

I'm not sure if it very accurate to say that people don't think about feminity/masculinity, but from where I'm at, they don't seem to particularly care too much about it and I'm guessing like myself, I know what I fit in via stereotypes, but I do not even care about it one bit. And as for the question of what makes us "us", ooh boy, that's a deep question. Polls suggests I'm 1/2 masculine and feminine leaning to feminine, but my identity has nothing to do with that, and even if I am extremely feminine, my identity wouldn't change. I can't say for other cis-individuals, and I wish I had adaquate datas on this, and maybe I'll look for that later. All I have is that at the moment, it seems that males and females does lean in either of direction according to studies, but they're almost the same as if they're from North Carolina and South Carolina rather than Mars and Venus, so some part of masculinity and feminity may not actually be valid.

It makes sense to me that people who don't feel any conflict/dysphoria/etc. between their physical sex and their gender identity - i.e., cis folks - wouldn't neccessarily perceive gender as a major, meaningful concept in their life. They simply have no urgent incentive to notice it, unlike trans* and NB folks, who are pretty much confronted with it on a daily basis.

So, yeah, these numbers don't particularly surprise me, even when I can't personally relate to them. :)

It's entirely possible that most cis-individuals don't notice it, but the possibility that many cis-individuals actually do not have a internal sense of gender is still there. I tried noticing it, but it's not even there at all no matter how deep I look into it. There's a few posts in the internet that does suggests that there are cis-individuals who really do not have a internal sense of gender made by cis-individuals who thinks as if they don't feel anything exists there.

[Guest]

It makes sense to me that people who don't feel any conflict/dysphoria/etc. between their physical sex and their gender identity - i.e., cis folks - wouldn't neccessarily perceive gender as a major, meaningful concept in their life. They simply have no urgent incentive to notice it, unlike trans* and NB folks, who are pretty much confronted with it on a daily basis.

So, yeah, these numbers don't particularly surprise me, even when I can't personally relate to them. :)

It's entirely possible that most cis-individuals don't notice it, but the possibility that many cis-individuals actually do not have a internal sense of gender is still there. I tried noticing it, but it's not even there at all no matter how deep I look into it. There's a few posts in the internet that does suggests that there are cis-individuals who really do not have a internal sense of gender made by cis-individuals who thinks as if they don't feel anything exists there.

Heh. Reminds me a bit of "if a tree falls in a deserted forest, does it make a sound?" ;)

If someone completely does not notice their own internal sense of gender... by what criterion could such an internal sense then be said to even be there within them, in the first place?

[Rising Sun]

I'd be curious to see if any studies have tried using PET scan or fMRI to answer the question. (I'm too lazy to google it right now)

[Nylocke]

I think most people are kinda pushed to identify with there birth sex for many reasons. I and one who doesn't strongly identify with what I was born as.

[Kappamaki]

Perhaps this is a simplistic way of thinking about it, but I suspect a lot of cis people don't really "identify" strongly with their gender because they don't think about it much in the same way that a fish doesn't really think much about being in the water. And we can assume that cis people on average (there are exceptions) don't think about gender nearly as critically as trans people...

Someone who has lived in one country all their life and never lived or visited anywhere else might not realize how much their culture is part of their personal identity. Whereas, say, an American who moves to India will quickly come to realize how much of an American they are. This sounds to me a lot like that.

Or perhaps it's more like how rich people don't have to think about money all the time.

[Chardog]

It seems that people often don't feel gender until they feel a disconnect with it.. And then they really feel it. That's why on all of these threads where people question "feeling gender" it's hard to quantify- and then the cis and indifferent people start throwing around the "feeling gender is BS" talk because they can't relate to what we're saying :/

[deltaX]

It seems that people often don't feel gender until they feel a disconnect with it.. And then they really feel it. That's why on all of these threads where people question "feeling gender" it's hard to quantify- and then the cis and indifferent people start throwing around the "feeling gender is BS" talk because they can't relate to what we're saying :/

[deltaX]

I'm a cis person, but I wanted to comment because I find this discussion really interesting. I am one of those people who identifies as "cis by default" because I don't feel any gender identity really strongly.

I know growing up, I never questioned my gender because I didn't really have any reason too. I didn't have any problem with being labelled a girl, even if I didn't connect to it very strongly or understand what the big deal was about gender. When I got involved with AVEN and started understand more about different gender identities, I began to question if I might be agender, simply because gender doesn't really matter me and would be equally fine I people didn't see me as female. Being okay with my assigned gender though, it seemed pointless to start identifying as a different gender now. After all, if my "default" gender identity of a cis-female doesn't cause me any disphoria or discomfort, why bother changing it?

I don't know if my lack of strong gendered feelings is because I somehow don't have a gender or if I can't can't experience it as strongly as trans people because there's no disconnect between my physical sex and my assigned gender. I don't really care too much though. Gender is super interesting to discuss and learn about (hence why I'm constantly lurking in the gender forum), but it doesn't really effect me personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out a lot of people who identify as cis felt this way, though I can really only speak for myself.

[Toothlesss]

I'm cis, but I find the American Stereotypical Female kind of things a dull and mostly uncomfortable place to be. I have a vintage style bathing suite I like wearing, and for special occasions I like dressing up (ie- weddings.._{Can't stand the boring ones that go on and on and on....)}

I don't even like wearing bras.. 38inch bust, (which is small)- so I never saw the point of wearing them, unless I want to give myself discomfort.

I might be demigirl but I have more of a preference for non-conforming female- especially for people who aren't in the know about gender terms.

That being said, I don't feel a huge draw toward masculine things- but that depends on what's in question too. I like the American Western styles of clothes and hats- heck I wear a hat everyday when I'm out of the house. I think one day I sew myself a real plaid shirt, because I like the look of it.

My next cosplay is Hiccup's outfit from Race to the Edge. I did the first movie's outfit last Halloween. (it was a hit in my neighborhood)

So, that's my view on it.

[Chardog]

I'm cis, but I find the American Stereotypical Female kind of things a dull and mostly uncomfortable place to be. I have a vintage style bathing suite I like wearing, and for special occasions I like dressing up (ie- weddings.._{Can't stand the boring ones that go on and on and on....)}

I don't even like wearing bras.. 38inch bust, (which is small)- so I never saw the point of wearing them, unless I want to give myself discomfort.

I might be demigirl but I have more of a preference for non-conforming female- especially for people who aren't in the know about gender terms.

That being said, I don't feel a huge draw toward masculine things- but that depends on what's in question too. I like the American Western styles of clothes and hats- heck I wear a hat everyday when I'm out of the house. I think one day I sew myself a real plaid shirt, because I like the look of it.

My next cosplay is Hiccup's outfit from Race to the Edge. I did the first movie's outfit last Halloween. (it was a hit in my neighborhood)

So, that's my view on it.

Your issue seems to be more with stereotypes and gender presentation.. You can be non-conforming and still be cis. Men can be feminine and women can be masculine and still be cis.. Gender isn't just these "social constructs".. Gender is more of a deeply seeded feeling regarding how you relate to the world- and how the world relates to you.

[R_1]

I'm cis, but I find the American Stereotypical Female kind of things a dull and mostly uncomfortable place to be. I have a vintage style bathing suite I like wearing, and for special occasions I like dressing up (ie- weddings.._{Can't stand the boring ones that go on and on and on....)}

I don't even like wearing bras.. 38inch bust, (which is small)- so I never saw the point of wearing them, unless I want to give myself discomfort.

I might be demigirl but I have more of a preference for non-conforming female- especially for people who aren't in the know about gender terms.

That being said, I don't feel a huge draw toward masculine things- but that depends on what's in question too. I like the American Western styles of clothes and hats- heck I wear a hat everyday when I'm out of the house. I think one day I sew myself a real plaid shirt, because I like the look of it.

My next cosplay is Hiccup's outfit from Race to the Edge. I did the first movie's outfit last Halloween. (it was a hit in my neighborhood)

So, that's my view on it.

Your issue seems to be more with stereotypes and gender presentation.. You can be non-conforming and still be cis. Men can be feminine and women can be masculine and still be cis.. Gender isn't just these "social constructs".. Gender is more of a deeply seeded feeling regarding how you relate to the world- and how the world relates to you.

That begs a question though, what about people who identifies as another gender entirely contrary to how they perceive themselves as to how they relate to the world, and how they perceive how the world relates to them. In my case, you and I know that my identity literally has nothing to do with "relate", and I'd be lying if I think that my identity has anything to do with relationship with the world or how the world relates to. Every definitions of gender has their problems, and this one of yours is not without problems. Anyways, I'll write up some more later to other people when I can gather my thoughts more.

[butterflydreams]

It seems that people often don't feel gender until they feel a disconnect with it.. And then they really feel it. That's why on all of these threads where people question "feeling gender" it's hard to quantify- and then the cis and indifferent people start throwing around the "feeling gender is BS" talk because they can't relate to what we're saying :/

Exactly. I don't really understand why this is always so contentious. If you don't really "feel" your gender, and you're not really bothered by key elements, congrats! It means you don't really have to do much. I don't "feel" like a woman. What is that? But I know know that how I was wasn't ok. Choosing to pull myself away from all sorts of natural, common things because it felt so gross to do it. Waking up, seeing scraggly beard shadow and just feeling my heart sink. Seeing chest hair and hearing my voice and feeling like I just got kicked in the stomach.

Sometimes I wonder about people who say things like, "oh I don't care about my gender, use any pronouns you want." It's one thing to be lackadaisical about something like pronouns, but to extrapolate that to all other elements seems dubious. My intuition tells me most people who "don't really care" would change their tune if things really did shift completely. It's easy to say you don't care, but when you actually have to live it, I promise it's no fun. Not caring doesn't cause you to hide from photos and cover all mirrors in your house.

[Chardog]

I'm cis, but I find the American Stereotypical Female kind of things a dull and mostly uncomfortable place to be. I have a vintage style bathing suite I like wearing, and for special occasions I like dressing up (ie- weddings.._{Can't stand the boring ones that go on and on and on....)}

I don't even like wearing bras.. 38inch bust, (which is small)- so I never saw the point of wearing them, unless I want to give myself discomfort.

I might be demigirl but I have more of a preference for non-conforming female- especially for people who aren't in the know about gender terms.

That being said, I don't feel a huge draw toward masculine things- but that depends on what's in question too. I like the American Western styles of clothes and hats- heck I wear a hat everyday when I'm out of the house. I think one day I sew myself a real plaid shirt, because I like the look of it.

My next cosplay is Hiccup's outfit from Race to the Edge. I did the first movie's outfit last Halloween. (it was a hit in my neighborhood)

So, that's my view on it.

Your issue seems to be more with stereotypes and gender presentation.. You can be non-conforming and still be cis. Men can be feminine and women can be masculine and still be cis.. Gender isn't just these "social constructs".. Gender is more of a deeply seeded feeling regarding how you relate to the world- and how the world relates to you.

That begs a question though, what about people who identifies as another gender entirely contrary to how they perceive themselves as to how they relate to the world, and how they perceive how the world relates to them. In my case, you and I know that my identity literally has nothing to do with "relate", and I'd be lying if I think that my identity has anything to do with relationship with the world or how the world relates to. Every definitions of gender has their problems, and this one of yours is not without problems. Anyways, I'll write up some more later to other people when I can gather my thoughts more.

Reptilian- While I am all for respectful debate about things, it seems that your only purpose on here is to constantly pick apart other peoples' life experience (especially mine, since I seem to be a person you often quote). I only speak for MYSELF and MY EXPERIENCES in hopes that others can find something that helps them understand their experiences.,,

I'd invite you to walk in my shoes. Spend your life being othered and not understanding why because you were clueless about being trans for 32 years. Walk around every single day and look at every other woman on the street and feel like you are literally a completely different species- you can't relate to them at all beyond the clothes you wear and makeup. Go into a nail place to get a manicure, looking like a cis woman, and get random dirty looks from other actual cis women and have the nail girls talk shit about you in another language in front of your face because you can't understand whatever they're speaking.. All I'm doing in any of these instances is BEING ME, yet somehow I walk through the world with other people picking up on something that is WRONG with me (that they couldn't articulate if asked). 99% of the time the judgement is either they need to take pity on me and find a way to help me "fix myself" or just plain reject me. Trust me, it's really fun. I'm sure you'd enjoy it immensely. But then again, it's all BS to you.

No wonder I'm finding myself on here less and less...

[m4rble]

I don't trust that this survey is representative of the general population because it's a self selected survey on a website that seems to only be targeted at a particular niche in the population. Still, the results make sense to me.

[m4rble]

It seems that people often don't feel gender until they feel a disconnect with it.. And then they really feel it. That's why on all of these threads where people question "feeling gender" it's hard to quantify- and then the cis and indifferent people start throwing around the "feeling gender is BS" talk because they can't relate to what we're saying :/

Exactly. I don't really understand why this is always so contentious. If you don't really "feel" your gender, and you're not really bothered by key elements, congrats! It means you don't really have to do much. I don't "feel" like a woman. What is that? But I know know that how I was wasn't ok. Choosing to pull myself away from all sorts of natural, common things because it felt so gross to do it. Waking up, seeing scraggly beard shadow and just feeling my heart sink. Seeing chest hair and hearing my voice and feeling like I just got kicked in the stomach.

Sometimes I wonder about people who say things like, "oh I don't care about my gender, use any pronouns you want." It's one thing to be lackadaisical about something like pronouns, but to extrapolate that to all other elements seems dubious. My intuition tells me most people who "don't really care" would change their tune if things really did shift completely. It's easy to say you don't care, but when you actually have to live it, I promise it's no fun. Not caring doesn't cause you to hide from photos and cover all mirrors in your house.

Well, part of the reason I put "any" under pronouns on this website is because I don't really want to be defined my gender online.

[JAKQ7111]

I used to identify as "cis by default", because my knowledge of what it meant to be trans was very narrow and limited, and so I didn't think I could be anything but cis. I did always have a passionate distaste for gender roles, especially as they pertained to me, and so once I learned that non-binary identities were a thing, I jumped at the opportunity to call myself agender. Once I did a bit more research, I realized that I did still experience gender, even if not in a binary or static way, and so I now call myself genderfluid.

That said, I think the experience of "feeling gender" or thinking about it much probably varies a lot from case to case, even among cis people. I'm sure there are plenty of cis folks who do enthusiastically feel their gender matches who they are, and aren't just casual about it. Likewise, many people do go through life just assuming they are cis because they have no evidence to the contrary. I honestly can say that I was one of those people, until I did more research, and now I am euphoric to call myself genderfluid, because being a cis guy was no fun, and this feels right.

[butterflydreams]

Well, part of the reason I put "any" under pronouns on this website is because I don't really want to be defined my gender online.

Yeah, I think online is different. And if the purpose is to hide any gender, that's a real purpose, rather than just indifference.

[Kappamaki]

Well, part of the reason I put "any" under pronouns on this website is because I don't really want to be defined my gender online.

Yeah, I think online is different. And if the purpose is to hide any gender, that's a real purpose, rather than just indifference.

For a while I was the sort of person to do this in face-to-face conversations! "What are your pronouns?" "Oh, whatever." Or sometimes I'd jokingly deflect by saying something like "Well, when referring to me in the 2nd person, I'd really like it if you could use 'you'."

Turns out that was my way of avoiding identifying with pronouns that hurt me without having to yet come to terms with being trans.

[Curious Decay]

To answer your questions no, i do not believe every individual has an internal sense of gender. However, the fact that being in the body they are born in does not always cause distress (ex:born male, male body) seems to indicate that their gender matches their physical sex and thus, no conscious sense is needed for their mental well-being. If it is someday proven that they are wrong about their sense of gender then it would be an interesting find indeed, how people would react would be something to really take a look, but in the end it would not be all that surprising. Finally if its proven that sis humans do in fact have a sense of gender then id say some would understand this revelation and others wouldn't. But i this case they'd likely not care because theirs no disharmony or damage cause by everything being all normal like.

[cym]

like others have said, i think most individuals just don't pay attention to gender -- until they experience dysphoria.

they just sorta go along with whatever gender they were assigned at birth.

that, or they feel a connection to their assigned gender but not very strongly.

since it's so difficult to really explain what gender feels like.

it's more of a social construct. where you feel you belong in society.

that's my theory anyway.

[dissolved]

I used to identify as "cis by default", because my knowledge of what it meant to be trans was very narrow and limited, and so I didn't think I could be anything but cis.

[...]

Likewise, many people do go through life just assuming they are cis because they have no evidence to the contrary.

I think you're onto something with the "cis by default" thing. For a long time I refused to accept the fact that I was trans for a whole host of reasons, one of them being the fact that trans folk had this extreme feeling of being trapped in the wrong body etc etc, and that many considered suicide before transitioning. I know I'm not the only one who thought this was the "standard" experience for trans folk, so given the options "meh I'm ok" and "I'm suicidal cos I'm stuck in the wrong body", many people are going to assume they're cis and never realise that the feelings of being trans can be far more subtle.

[R_1]

Reptilian- While I am all for respectful debate about things, it seems that your only purpose on here is to constantly pick apart other peoples' life experience (especially mine, since I seem to be a person you often quote). I only speak for MYSELF and MY EXPERIENCES in hopes that others can find something that helps them understand their experiences.,,

I'd invite you to walk in my shoes. Spend your life being othered and not understanding why because you were clueless about being trans for 32 years. Walk around every single day and look at every other woman on the street and feel like you are literally a completely different species- you can't relate to them at all beyond the clothes you wear and makeup. Go into a nail place to get a manicure, looking like a cis woman, and get random dirty looks from other actual cis women and have the nail girls talk shit about you in another language in front of your face because you can't understand whatever they're speaking.. All I'm doing in any of these instances is BEING ME, yet somehow I walk through the world with other people picking up on something that is WRONG with me (that they couldn't articulate if asked). 99% of the time the judgement is either they need to take pity on me and find a way to help me "fix myself" or just plain reject me. Trust me, it's really fun. I'm sure you'd enjoy it immensely. But then again, it's all BS to you.

No wonder I'm finding myself on here less and less...

My purpose here is to try to encourage critical thinking and to support criticism about different approaches to making a conclusion. Experiences are one of the worse forms of evidence one could ever offer, and for very good reasons too, and I don't need to repeat them unless I am asked. And, I have a pretty good idea of how women acts like, from my viewpoint, and from what I see, they are the same species, and yes I do go out very often. Even talking to them, I still see that they're the same species as the men, almost as if there's virtually nearly 0 differences from my viewpoint or negliable differences from my viewpoint. I'm okay with taking manicures and even lipsticks, but to dress up in clothes that are typically assigned for phenological females is kinda asking for problems. Clothes are literally the only coherent difference I see in men and women in my nearly 2 decades of observations. You have people like me who really didn't observe any differences, and you have people like yourself who do see differences, and individual experiences are just as valid as each other.

I don't trust that this survey is representative of the general population because it's a self selected survey on a website that seems to only be targeted at a particular niche in the population. Still, the results make sense to me.

There are definitely discrepancies within the survey, and one of the very first discrepancies one would notice is the sexuality census. A lot of sexual orientation census with rigorous sample size and method supports the idea that heterosexuality can be common as 9/10 of the population or even 19/20 of the population, and the survey doesn't seem to support the conclusion by more rigorous statistics.

I'm a cis person, but I wanted to comment because I find this discussion really interesting. I am one of those people who identifies as "cis by default" because I don't feel any gender identity really strongly.

I know growing up, I never questioned my gender because I didn't really have any reason too. I didn't have any problem with being labelled a girl, even if I didn't connect to it very strongly or understand what the big deal was about gender. When I got involved with AVEN and started understand more about different gender identities, I began to question if I might be agender, simply because gender doesn't really matter me and would be equally fine I people didn't see me as female. Being okay with my assigned gender though, it seemed pointless to start identifying as a different gender now. After all, if my "default" gender identity of a cis-female doesn't cause me any disphoria or discomfort, why bother changing it?

I don't know if my lack of strong gendered feelings is because I somehow don't have a gender or if I can't can't experience it as strongly as trans people because there's no disconnect between my physical sex and my assigned gender. I don't really care too much though. Gender is super interesting to discuss and learn about (hence why I'm constantly lurking in the gender forum), but it doesn't really effect me personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out a lot of people who identify as cis felt this way, though I can really only speak for myself.

I concur with this comment, and yes gender as a topic is really interesting and especially it has a lot to do with philosophy of approach to identity. It's not really off the table that maybe you don't have a gender, and you have no reason to identify other than cis. I am exactly like that, and no matter how much I get rid of the essentialism worldview of my mind, and think in a way that involves gender and taking out sex, there isn't such a thing of gender in me, but I still insist as going by cis due to convenience and how I find that it works well for me. It's like there are other cis-individuals like me who really don't have a gender.

Perhaps this is a simplistic way of thinking about it, but I suspect a lot of cis people don't really "identify" strongly with their gender because they don't think about it much in the same way that a fish doesn't really think much about being in the water. And we can assume that cis people on average (there are exceptions) don't think about gender nearly as critically as trans people...

Someone who has lived in one country all their life and never lived or visited anywhere else might not realize how much their culture is part of their personal identity. Whereas, say, an American who moves to India will quickly come to realize how much of an American they are. This sounds to me a lot like that.

Or perhaps it's more like how rich people don't have to think about money all the time.

And then, there are those people who are aware of their own culture and how much it is part of their personal identity, and still insists on identifying a certain manner because why not while there are rich people like that and then there are rich people who don't really care much about their money or they don't see it as something that exists in a tangible manner. Whatever the case, I don't think this is something that's going to be solved in the near future. If it shown that many cis-individuals actually do not have a thing like gender within their mind via brain scans, how would this affects the trans-community and gender as a whole? Gender has a lot of naunces and especially there are unsolved ones because there are so much disagreement on certain issues of gender like this one.

I'd be curious to see if any studies have tried using PET scan or fMRI to answer the question. (I'm too lazy to google it right now)

That'd be interesting to see. If all cis-individuals have a sense of gender, then cis-by-default and cis-genderless individuals would have to try evaluating their approach to identity. If it shown that not every cis-individuals has actually a sense of gender or even have one, then lots of people within gender-based mindset may actually admit there are different approach to identity and they don't really get the concept of gender because they don't have one. Such a study would actually encourage gender-focused community to find a more accurate definitions and less problematic ones than ones that are most commonly used.

[Chardog]

Reptilian- I'm just going to shut up and go away permanently at this point.. Since life experience means NOTHING. Bye AVEN.. It's been real, it's been fun.

Hope you've achieved your objective in getting rid of me because you're NOT contributing to constructive debate, since all you do is repeat yourself like a broken record and crap on everyone else's thoughts & opinions because yours are the only valid ones.. I'd like to see your Ph.D. in gender studies because everything you say is based on your life experience- which also, according to you, is not a valid measure of anything.

This isn't a safe or comfortable space for me anymore when I'm being ATTACKED thread after thread. Other peoples' anecdotal experience is what helped me figure myself out. Perhaps we should all shut up and go away to make you happy. Because, of course, you have the right to free speech and I don't have the right to defend myself. I've been abused and invalidated enough in every other area of my life thank you very much.

[Heart]

This is the first time I've seen a question that differentiates between gender-by-default and distinct-gender-feeling (not the best wording, but bear with me :P ). It doesn't surprise me that it comes from the Less Wrong community; that seems to be a good combination of being open minded but also analytical in mindset, so of course they are the first that I've seen to actually ask that in somewhat of a statistical manner!

I mean, this is a very biased sample if you're to apply it to the population at large. But at least it does tease apart the differences between identifying with a gender by default and by deliberate identity. You have to start somewhere. It would be interesting I think to see something like this pop up in a more broad sample space.

I wonder what percentage of the people who chose the identifying with their gender by default would actually identify as cisgenderless if they were told the definition and given the option?

[R_1]

Wait, you know of the LessWrong community? I haven't heard anything about them until I try to find the source which involves differentiating census of cis-people between group. And yeah, a bigger sample study would be very useful and somewhat informative enough for people to gain a more accurate views of others. It's a start. I'm afraid a study on that is going to take a very long time. There's also the possibility of a similar study involving trans people, and I recognize there are extremely subtle form of being non-binary/trans, and there are more extreme. It would be nice to differentiate between groups and subgroups.

[m4rble]

A bigger sample wouldn't be more useful. A more representative sample would be more useful.

[Nylocke]

I'm cis, but I find the American Stereotypical Female kind of things a dull and mostly uncomfortable place to be. I have a vintage style bathing suite I like wearing, and for special occasions I like dressing up (ie- weddings.._{Can't stand the boring ones that go on and on and on....)}

I don't even like wearing bras.. 38inch bust, (which is small)- so I never saw the point of wearing them, unless I want to give myself discomfort.

I might be demigirl but I have more of a preference for non-conforming female- especially for people who aren't in the know about gender terms.

That being said, I don't feel a huge draw toward masculine things- but that depends on what's in question too. I like the American Western styles of clothes and hats- heck I wear a hat everyday when I'm out of the house. I think one day I sew myself a real plaid shirt, because I like the look of it.

My next cosplay is Hiccup's outfit from Race to the Edge. I did the first movie's outfit last Halloween. (it was a hit in my neighborhood)

So, that's my view on it.

Your issue seems to be more with stereotypes and gender presentation.. You can be non-conforming and still be cis. Men can be feminine and women can be masculine and still be cis.. Gender isn't just these "social constructs".. Gender is more of a deeply seeded feeling regarding how you relate to the world- and how the world relates to you.

That begs a question though, what about people who identifies as another gender entirely contrary to how they perceive themselves as to how they relate to the world, and how they perceive how the world relates to them. In my case, you and I know that my identity literally has nothing to do with "relate", and I'd be lying if I think that my identity has anything to do with relationship with the world or how the world relates to. Every definitions of gender has their problems, and this one of yours is not without problems. Anyways, I'll write up some more later to other people when I can gather my thoughts more.

Reptilian- While I am all for respectful debate about things, it seems that your only purpose on here is to constantly pick apart other peoples' life experience (especially mine, since I seem to be a person you often quote). I only speak for MYSELF and MY EXPERIENCES in hopes that others can find something that helps them understand their experiences.,,

I'd invite you to walk in my shoes. Spend your life being othered and not understanding why because you were clueless about being trans for 32 years. Walk around every single day and look at every other woman on the street and feel like you are literally a completely different species- you can't relate to them at all beyond the clothes you wear and makeup. Go into a nail place to get a manicure, looking like a cis woman, and get random dirty looks from other actual cis women and have the nail girls talk shit about you in another language in front of your face because you can't understand whatever they're speaking.. All I'm doing in any of these instances is BEING ME, yet somehow I walk through the world with other people picking up on something that is WRONG with me (that they couldn't articulate if asked). 99% of the time the judgement is either they need to take pity on me and find a way to help me "fix myself" or just plain reject me. Trust me, it's really fun. I'm sure you'd enjoy it immensely. But then again, it's all BS to you.

No wonder I'm finding myself on here less and less...

Your experiences kinda remind me of some of my own. Can't say I've ever gone to a nail place or had the nail people down me in another language but I know back in school many girls didn't like me at all and I always felt I wasn't the same as "them" anyway. I am not trans though.