Do non-binary people belong in women-only spaces?

[Ace-TheTimelordsCompanion]

My university openly welcomes non-binary people into their safe space for women, I am assuming because the whole point is to have a safe place those who are discriminated against for their gender can retreat to, and NB people face just as much BS as women. Wondering how others feel about NB people in women-specific organisations, spaces and programmes.

[binary suns]

no one "belongs" anywhere

your school is not a place that nonbinary people would want to go to.

[ThaHoward]

I believe they care about if you have a vagina or a penis. If its supposed to be a safe space for women I fail to see how it is that if everyone can attend to it as long as they don't identify as a man or exclude biological females just because they identify as agendered.

[deltaX]

As a cis-female, I think it makes the most sense for women-only safe spaces to be for women, and people who at least partially identify with the female gender. I think that making a space that excludes everyone but cis-men kind of defeats the point, because instead being about offering a safe space for some group people, it become about excluding a different group of people.

That being said, I've had some bad experiences with women-only spaces, so I probably wouldn't feel comfortable in one either way. In my ideal world women-only safe spaces wouldn't exist, though I realize that's irrational for a lot of people who might need them.

[girltwink666]

first of all I think there should be no question as to whether trans women should be included. Trans women are women so in my opinion that shouldnt even be a quesiton

so this year one of my friends applied to some womens colleges in massachusetts and she wasn't sure whether she should go there because she identifies as nonbinary but still uses she/her pronouns. This makes sense to me? that someone who is nonbinary but aligns more with the feminine side of things should be allowed. I don't think nonbinary people who are transmasculine should be though.

[Ace-TheTimelordsCompanion]

no one "belongs" anywhere

your school is not a place that nonbinary people would want to go to.

I am curious as to why you think that?

I am nonbinary, and I like it at my uni :)

[zoom]

Could you put some examples of "safe spaces for women"?

I am not sure what it means, actually.

[Ace-TheTimelordsCompanion]

first of all I think there should be no question as to whether trans women should be included. Trans women are women so in my opinion that shouldnt even be a quesiton

I agree whole-heartedly. I put it there because there are some monsters people who fight to exclude them. I just want to clarify that I don't agree with all the possibilities I post, I put them there partly so that those who have that kind of opinion can air it, but mostly to show how few people, here at least, think that way

[Kuebiko]

Women-only spaces, by virtue of the name should be for women only. So like, cis-women and trans-women are fine. Maybe leeway could be given for those who identify as more feminine, I guess but that would be on a case by case basis.

I don't think I'm being prejudiced (but I could be wrong) but the safe space is for women and women only? So like, females and feminine stuff only. (I hope I'm not messing up the gender terms-y stuff. I think I am. Idk.)

But I would be comfortable with other non-binary people if they happen to turn up in such a space because it's also a safe space, which some people might need, regardless of gender (unless another woman is openly uncomfortable because ultimately the safe space belongs to the women).

Idk man. I'm not all that familiar with safe spaces and public opinion. But flexibility but also appropriateness?

[Finn.]

Okay. Since I've come to identify as nonbinary this is a thing I started to worry about. I talked about this with a few people and read different tumblr posts about it and still don't know where I'm at. For me, it's very similar to the dicussion about whether nonbinary people can call themselves gay/lesbian.

To explain my situation: I am afab. I identified as lesbian for a few years. If I need to come out, I will most often come out as gay, because I am not out as nb (at least in most places).

I may be nonbinary but still experience the "disadvantages of being a woman", a gay one at that. I experience (misdirected or whatever) misogyny, sexism and homophobia. Even on my most nonbinary/agender/genderqueer days, when in question I will always stand on the side of women. I feel close to them, I was raised as one, I get the same / at least very similar treatment. I don't know if I am "woman-aligned", that's a really vague term that confuses me. Maybe I am. But even if not, I need a safe space. And where else should I go?

[Ace-TheTimelordsCompanion]

Okay. Since I've come to identify as nonbinary this is a thing I started to worry about. I talked about this with a few people and read different tumblr posts about it and still don't know where I'm at. For me, it's very similar to the dicussion about whether nonbinary people can call themselves gay/lesbian.

To explain my situation: I am afab. I identified as lesbian for a few years. If I need to come out, I will most often come out as gay, because I am not out as nb (at least in most places).

I may be nonbinary but still experience the "disadvantages of being a woman", a gay one at that. I experience (misdirected or whatever) misogyny, sexism and homophobia. Even on my most nonbinary/agender/genderqueer days, when in question I will always stand on the side of women. I feel close to them, I was raised as one, I get the same / at least very similar treatment. I don't know if I am "woman-aligned", that's a really vague term that confuses me. Maybe I am. But even if not, I need a safe space. And where else should I go?

OMG, thank you. You just summed up so nicely exactly what I feel. I had no idea how to express it, and you just did it so beautifully.

It is a strange feeling of reacting to the label of female, even if you don't identify with it. But then my brain catches up, and it is so confusing.

[LassieBee]

On 29/05/2016 at 6:22 PM, Ace-TheTimelordsCompanion said:

On 29/05/2016 at 5:05 PM, Finn. said:

Okay. Since I've come to identify as nonbinary this is a thing I started to worry about. I talked about this with a few people and read different tumblr posts about it and still don't know where I'm at. For me, it's very similar to the dicussion about whether nonbinary people can call themselves gay/lesbian.

To explain my situation: I am afab. I identified as lesbian for a few years. If I need to come out, I will most often come out as gay, because I am not out as nb (at least in most places).

I may be nonbinary but still experience the "disadvantages of being a woman", a gay one at that. I experience (misdirected or whatever) misogyny, sexism and homophobia. Even on my most nonbinary/agender/genderqueer days, when in question I will always stand on the side of women. I feel close to them, I was raised as one, I get the same / at least very similar treatment. I don't know if I am "woman-aligned", that's a really vague term that confuses me. Maybe I am. But even if not, I need a safe space. And where else should I go?

OMG, thank you. You just summed up so nicely exactly what I feel. I had no idea how to express it, and you just did it so beautifully.

It is a strange feeling of reacting to the label of female, even if you don't identify with it. But then my brain catches up, and it is so confusing.

I'm a more masculine NB person but I still feel connected to girls because I'm used to them. As clueless as I am about 'girly' things, I know what things I'm clueless about. With boys, I don't even know what I don't know.

If I'm in a room separated into boys and girls, I will automatically go to the girls side because I feel more comfortable in a group of girls - hating every moment of it possibly - but I feel accepted and that's something I don't get from guys.

It doesn't matter if in twenty years time I look and sound like a cis guy and get called Seth with he/him pronouns, part of me will still be connected to that girl who was raised in my body, and all the women she trusted.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention that I am an Irish Girl Guide. I've been one for five years and I asked the head office a few months ago if trans women/nonbinary people were allowed and they said that as long advice the person identifies mainly with female they are welcome. 

[SirEl]

What are these women-only places used for? What do people do there?

Also, as a fellow New Zealander, I was wondering what university you go to? I haven't heard or read about any universities accepting non-binary students, or having women-only spaces. Though I haven't really heard much about any university apart from the subjects you can take and how to get in.. Sorry 'bout that.

[TheAP]

I don't have a problem with AFAB non-binary people being in women's spaces.

[zoom]

What are these women-only places used for? What do people do there?

I am wondering about the same thing.

The only women-only space I know are women-only hours in the sauna.

[Ace-TheTimelordsCompanion]

For those unsure of what a women-only safe space is, I've found some info, it was harder to find than I expected though :)
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Safe_space

I go to Victoria University in Wellington. We have both an active womens group, and an active LGBTQ+ group, they both do good work. For example catcalling/harrassment of women on campus is not a thing now, and hasn't been for a while I gather, I suspect if anyone tried it the university would take it very seriously. There was recently an information campaign about acceptance and understanding of trans people, thanks to Uni-Q on campus. There is a safe space for women at the main vic campus, and I found a video about it :) I personally have never been there, I haven't felt the need, however this may be because I have the space for those with a disability to retreat to, when it gets too much, complete with adaptive tech and low-light rooms for those who need them. There are quite a few areas for different minorities at Vic uni. It isn't a perfect system, I will admit, but it is better than no system at all.

I guess I am also curious how people feel, because it relates to other, larger organisations, for exxample Women's Refuge. I have also been involved in a couple of improv shows with specifically all female (and femme and NB) casts..
http://www.comedyfestival.co.nz/find-a-show/taking-off-the-bird-suit/

[MyDogsSpots]

I'm also unsure as to what you mean by women-only spaces aside from obvious places like bathrooms/locker rooms/changing rooms that are clearly marked with a gender specification on the door. (Not that I'm one of the people who cares what type of plumbing the person in the stall next to me is packing.) I suppose a women's shelter could also be considered a women's safe zone, but I believe men can work/volunteer in one a shelter. Are there also safe zones for men? I've known plenty of guys who are victims of bullying and abuse who could use a safe place to go.

[JAKQ7111]

My experience with "women's spaces" often boil down to them welcoming cis women, some trans women, and FAAB non-binary people. I did not feel welcome in said spaces, and got misgendered like crazy in the process. They saw me as a man, and treated me as such, which in this case, was not pleasant treatment. I do not believe in gender segregation, and would like to see women-only and men-only spaces dissolved.

[TophBeiFong]

My personal take on the issue is that genetalia are the defining factor or line.

If the disphoria is too great, one should seek neutral restrooms.

The reason people are concerned about cross-gender restroom access is that they are worried about rape. Note: I do not in any way intend to imply that non-binary people (I'm one myself) should be considered rapists. Merely that any adult stranger of any sex can be perceived as potentially threatening when one is in vulnerable spaces.

[Ettina]

I think cis men should be welcome if they are respectful to the women who need that place. NB people are not really an issue at all in my opinion.   

[girltwink666]

On 5/31/2016 at 3:18 PM, JAKQ7111 said:

My experience with "women's spaces" often boil down to them welcoming cis women, some trans women, and FAAB non-binary people. I did not feel welcome in said spaces, and got misgendered like crazy in the process. They saw me as a man, and treated me as such, which in this case, was not pleasant treatment.

im sorry that that happened to u. i know quite a few afab nonbinary and or trans people who will full well take advantage of these often essentialist ~female only uwu~ spaces and ignore the transmisogyny theyre helping perpetuate 

[WhenSummersGone]

If someone can somewhat relate to being a woman. I feel genitalia is the difference they mean but doesn't consider non binary people. I consider myself partly woman but never felt 100% and same goes for women spaces, so I'm not sure if I would be comfortable in one.

[Luftschlosseule]

I've been wondering about this, too. See, I am genderfluid and on some days I am a woman, on some days not but I don't know if you can see it if you know me well. I am AFAB, so I'd pass anyway, and nobody around here apart from few young people have heard of non-binary persons.

 

A perfect example would be a "Frauenhaus", literally house for women. It's for mothers with babies and small children that get mistreated in their partnership, abused, raped. They can life in this house and only people they contact of their own free will know that they're living there. They get a chance to start therapy, to relax if possible. Since every woman that lives there has so bad experiences with people that look male, I see a big problem there.
It's a woman-only area, even the persons looking after them tend to be women. So if you pass as a woman, great. Androgyne looking? Should be fine, too. Apart from that I don't suppose that it would work well.

 

The local group of lesbian women was very inclusive at last year's pride parade. You could make buttons, and they had some for non-binary people, too. So I'd think that non-binary people would be welcome there.

[Grumpy Alien]

I don't care 

[ChillaKilla]

Women and femme/ partially female gendered NB people, I think.

 

The college I plan on attending is historically a women's college, but they allow anyone who isn't a cis man to apply. Their application asks if you're AMAB and identify as male, and if you're not they will consider you. So I feel welcome there. I kinda wanna see people's reaction when in 10 years they see a hardened geologist with permanent calluses, a wiry masculine frame, a tan, overall just a rough outdoorsy "don't mess with me" look say they went to "X College"  

[JAKQ7111]

1 hour ago, ChillaKilla said:

Women and femme/ partially female gendered NB people, I think.

 

The college I plan on attending is historically a women's college, but they allow anyone who isn't a cis man to apply. Their application asks if you're AMAB and identify as male, and if you're not they will consider you. So I feel welcome there. I kinda wanna see people's reaction when in 10 years they see a hardened geologist with permanent calluses, a wiry masculine frame, a tan, overall just a rough outdoorsy "don't mess with me" look say they went to "X College"  

I am a femme NB, but I feel very unwelcome in those kinds of spaces.  In my experience, most FAAB people take a look at me and assume that I am the very thing they hate the most in the world-- a cis man.  I find that these spaces are very welcoming to FAAB folks and/or those who ID as women.  This leaves out two categories of people: Cis men, and me.  I will never engage in a space that is not explicitly inclusive of all genders, because to do otherwise would involve compromising at least one major portion of my identity.

[Rynn]

I feel all NB's that identify at least partially as something feminine, or have experience being treated as a woman/girl should be allowed in.

 

Unrelated to what I just said, but I found an article on this if anyone wants to read it.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/06/non-binary-in-female-spaces/

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