Virgin / whore dichotomy - and I don't want to be "virgin"

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I am wondering to what extent (surely to some, at least) was my sexual activity motivated by trying to get some social status (or "status" in eyes of most people :D).

I was sure about some things (in no particular order):

- I want to wear nice clothes

- I want to wear make-up

- I don't want to have children

- I would abort (and I don't understand why it is a big deal)

- I would prefer divorce to "trying to find some compromise" (or even to doing what your husband wants!)

All of them were at some point presented as "things that whores do". Though the third one was mostly attributed to ugly women "who cannot get laid anyway". But generally speaking, I got these (nice) things connected to being a "whore" in general. If you get divorced at least 100 times it somehow means that you are going to wear sparkling strapless dress and a lot of make-up. Good women, on the other hand, are married and have children "and thus don't have time and money for this". (this = nice clothes, make-up, hairdresser, going out with friends, eating in restaurants, actually having their own hobbies)

Bear in mind I am talking about childhood all the time, being 6-15 years old in general. Of course that an adult would see the lack of logic ^_^.

But I've grown up in that and I desperately wanted to not be "one of these women / girls" (badly dressed, no make-up, learning how to ski just because their husband likes skiing) and I also did not want to be perceived as "one of these women / girls", like I was purposefully misbehaving in school "so the teacher does not think my lack of lipstick means I am afraid of her" (my mum always refused to buy me "nice things" because "I am afraid it would cause problems in the school", though the problems actually have nearly the opposite cause).

I kinda skipped the social development during high school, so we will skip this.

And then I was nineteen and being nineteen and virgin was getting to the "the girl who is taking it seriously" and "keeping the precious virginity for the right one" (seriously, who is interested in virginity, we have paternity tests and I would not keep the baby anyway!). At that point I was interested in having sex now and then (but that could be because I did not yet discover "the right sex toy"), but I did not want a relationship, and it was getting to the point of "how do you get a casual sex when you are a virgin?". Because, unless the guys are assholes, they will consider it as "keep it for the right one" situation.

And I was starting to get "marriage and motherhood" material label. I did not have casual boyfriends and I did not drink at that time (due to skin issues, had nothing to do with morals or health or whatever). I was also refusing invitation for drinks based on "I pay my own bills" ethics, but most people did not understand the concept .

All together, I am pretty much sure that most of the sex I've ever had was to get rid of some kind of label, to increase the number of sex partners (which is probably totally normal for males) and so on; now I am wondering if it is still my major reason for "wanting to have sex now and then". Do I really want to have sex, or do I want to remove myself (subconsciously) from the "single people suitable for serious relationship" market? Because if you are not a whore, then you are obviously a virgin - future good wife and good mother.

[Tanzanite]

Oooh, you're refering to what's known as the Madonna-whore complex. By that logic, I'd be a "whore" as well (though I don't wear makeup), and I'm one of the least sexual people I know as well as a virgin. Society is never worth it and it can be full of people that want other people to conform and be just as miserable and like-minded as they are. People seem to be forgetting quotes such as "clothes don't make the man" and stuff like that. They also apparently see things in black and white, which is an unhealthy way of thinking. Please don't push yourself into doing what you don't want to do.

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The think is that I am honestly not sure what I really want to do.

I mean I don't fall in love and I don't feel sexual attraction towards specific people (except for one person, but actually having sex with them is out of question), so we can skip the "classical" style of sexual encounters, but sometimes (in last years it is "rarely") I want to have sex, but I am really unsure if it is really sexual desire (then OK, let's do it if it is convenient) or just a way to prove myself (still, after all these years - I am nearly 30 y.o.).

I stopped talking to my parents some time ago (because I still felt that I have to somehow prove myself) and only afterwards I realized that the whole "you have to do XXX so they don't think you are YYY" and "you can never ever do XXX because they would think you are going to change your mind about (something unrelated)" was much broader than I thought. Maybe including the whole sex thing. I honestly don't know, because it started such a long time ago.

[Busrider]

Maybe I am not the brightest guy.... But I am not getting your issue entirely. If the Madonna-whore complex exists at all, I doubt its easily lived out at the clothing frontier. - If you dress too well, it might render yourself unapproachable? And what does a bunch of bedpost notches provide beyond the ego boost of "yay, I can attract easily, if I want to"?

[HighDrive]

Somehow your post makes me build this story where you are the protagonist:

I think about someone in A small conservative religious town in the middle of nowhere where they still think the world is 6000 years old and teach creationism in school.

Your post is full of situations where the world is seen through the critical eyes of other people.

It seems you are strong and don't believe in that world, however that's the only world you know. So you act as if you are reveling from that world.

Now let me tell you what would be a good plot and a good ending:

Eventually, you will go out to the world see that the world is not really as you see it. There are a lot of people who dotn' think someone in makeupor, dressing nice, drinking or having sex is a whore. Si the opposite isn't true either. Using their best judgment and personal preferences, they can wear makeup or not, drink, be naked in the beach or wear baggy clothes; just because they feel like it. No one is judging. And if someone judges it is their own problem.

In that world you won't drink because antistablishment but because you enjoy it. You won't have sex because you don't want to be virgin, just because you enjoy it. And you will see that not having sex because you don't feel like that is perfectly acceptable.

I can imagine the last scene, when you feel completely liberated from judgment, behaving the way you see fit regardless if what other people think.

Good luck finishing the movie.

[zoom]

Cool, thank you!

Well, I am actually from a capital city in pretty liberal area, so it was mostly my family + one girl in my school who was somehow conservative (and my parents wanted me to be friends with her, mostly because she was "a good girl" and her parents also did not have much money). So we were like the two badly dressed asocial idiots other kids did not want to have in the class, but she was happy with that (being from religious family and having other social contacts outside school) and I really did not want to be like her. She was actually always my negative role model, like "I must do this so people don't think I am someone like M."

I currently (like six months ago) stopped any contact with my parents, because they are just not accepting, and will take any step in the "wrong" way as a "proof" that you are going to change to their liking. And I am honestly fed up with being seen as some imaginary person I am not. So I think it is going to help a lot, when you don't have to worry about all the "but you've once said that you will never do XXX, and here you are!" used as a "proof" that I am going to change my mind about something serious.

("surprisingly", if they like my opinion, then they take it seriously)

EDIT: I actually think that the whole part about clothes / make-up / hairdresser was not the real belief of my mother, that she just did not want to say / accept the fact that she cannot afford these thing, so she started scolding them instead. Or maybe she thought it will be easier for me when she says "C. is just a stupid girl and will end up being a stripper!" instead of "yes, I know, it looks bad when the pants are too short for you, but I really cannot afford to buy new ones". Anyway, nowadays she is scolding "alternative women" who dress badly for ecological reasons and cut their own hair.

[Guest]

Moved thread from Questions about Asexuality to The Gray Area, Sex and Related Discussions.

Nai

Questions about Asexuality Co-Moderator

[zoom]

And what does a bunch of bedpost notches provide beyond the ego boost of "yay, I can attract easily, if I want to"?

Actually I think that most men are going to have sex with anything female and premenopausal, so I don't think I collect any points.

But, being the "whore" means that I am not the "virgin", right? And virgin is going to get married, have babies, have a mortgage, have a white picket fence, cook for her husband and try to make compromises so the family stays together (instead of saying "pack your shit and leave, I am divorcing you!"), which are basically the only things that are pushed on me nowadays. Or were pushed on me. Or would be pushed on me if I made some contact with my family. And I find it incredibly offensive (though I don't see anything wrong with that when other people do it, but it is not who I am).

[Isak]

Being different means that others will struggle to label you. The idea that you do not fit within their limited categories seem to make some people really uncomfortable, for some reason. Let’s call it fear of the unknown.

In my opinion, this shouldn’t make you want to change who you are (as you can’t really do it, anyway).

Personally, I let only the (very few) people who are really close to me get an idea about who I really am. Others can have their own theories about me, and I’m ok with it.

[grumpygrim]

This post reminds me of a quote from a movie (I can't remember the title): ''If you say you've done it your a whore, if you say you haven't you're a prude.''

A woman can't be 'good', ever. Even being the 'virgin' or the 'madonna' doesn't mean people are going to respect you. They'll just find other ways to give you shit.

Besides, it's more fun to be the whore, to be honest. More power to you :)

[zoom]

I want to be whore, but can I just get the label, without actually having sex? ^_^

[Isak]

While this won't make you a whore (sorry, nobody can), it will make very clear where you stand. Make it your manifesto ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RaHTDNude4

P.S. this is just to lighten things up, and because I love the song :)

[Guest]

Every aspect of this confuses me. Let's start with...

Madonna/whore complex is something that occurs in an intimate relationship and, generally, it's the man who has the complex in relation to his wife/girlfriend. They can't have sex with women they love, because they view sex as dirty. So either someone is sexy and fun and to be used as a body, or they are loved and magnificent and pure. But, it has nothing to do with society in general or the way women view themselves.

Lots of women with kids have nice clothes and wear makeup. More than who don't, I'd wager a bet. I'm a childless hedonistic lesbian who wears no makeup and dresses real frumpy, and I do not consider myself to be mom-like or wife-life. Maybe it's the difference in culture, but I think of soccer moms and the Desperate Housewives sort of women as the mom and wife type, and they're sexy and they wear makeup, etc.

I just... I don't get it. I don't get why wearing makeup would make anyone think you're a whore?? And why would wearing (or not wearing) lipstick have anything to do with being afraid of a teacher? Just... what??

[Guest]

I'd use the same name for it, tbh, regardless of the genders of people involved, because yeah, i think it's something that lots of people feel to varying degrees regardless of gender.

[zoom]

I just... I don't get it. I don't get why wearing makeup would make anyone think you're a whore?? And why would wearing (or not wearing) lipstick have anything to do with being afraid of a teacher? Just... what??

I also don't know why, but I've grown up in that.

Again, no idea about the teacher - but it was the excuse of my mother when she refused to buy me something.

I did not mean the "Madonna/whore complex" in relationship, but the dichotomy how society perceives women, either good women or bad women. And good women are marriage material. And I don't want to be seen like that, because it is just offensive, so I want to be perceived as the other group.

Maybe it's the difference in culture, but I think of soccer moms and the Desperate Housewives sort of women as the mom and wife type, and they're sexy and they wear makeup, etc.

Could be. A joke I remember: "The brides arrives to the wedding banquet, cuts a huge slice of wedding cake and says FINALLY, I CAN GET FAT!"