Should questioning the holocaust be legal in Germany?

[-1=e^ipi]

when I hear someone clamoring for absolute free speech, I automatically assume they're a right-wing extremist who hates all kinds of minority groups (and about nine times out of ten, the assumptions is correct, as far as Germans go). Nobody else would profit from it even remotely as much; everyone who isn't a hateful hardhead has perfectly enough freedom of speech as it stands.

Have you heard of they poem first they came? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

Well how about this variant?

First they came for the neonazis, and I did not speak out.

Then they came for the conservatives, and I did not speak out.

Then they came for the classical liberals.

The sad thing is that there is a facist totalitarian ideology that is spreading across the world, is at war with many countries, and wants to take over the world. And that ideology is wahhabism/salafism. Saudi Arabia and other gulf states use their oil money to spread Wahhabism across the world and the result is terrorist groups like ISIS, Al Queda, Al Shabab, Al Nusra and Boko Haram. We see terrorist attacks weekly from France to Canada to India to Yemen. Yet many of the people claiming to be trying to prevent facism are the ones preventing others from fighting against facism, often due to some bizarre Nazi guilt complex.

[-1=e^ipi]

Americans mock us for our failure to give Erdogan the finger, and rightly so.

So is that Turkish comedian going to be imprisoned / fined for criticizing Erdogan? What is the current situation?

[iff]

my first thought is that "as long as i don't have to listen to holocaust denial" as .

however while reading this thread, a thought in my mind is about some of those who may be holocaust denial, could part of those wishes to publicly deny the holocaust be those whose fathers or grandfathers took part in the holocaust

of course, then again those wishing to deny the holocaust happened would deny that their relatives had any part in the holocaust because they deny the holocaust happened.

[Sally]

my first thought is that "as long as i don't have to listen to holocaust denial" as .

however while reading this thread, a thought in my mind is about some of those who may be holocaust denial, could part of those wishes to publicly deny the holocaust be those whose fathers or grandfathers took part in the holocaust

of course, then again those wishing to deny the holocaust happened would deny that their relatives had any part in the holocaust because they deny the holocaust happened.

I doubt It. Instead, they would either be silent or do the usual "He was just following orders; he didn't really do anything bad; etc.etc." Holocaust deniers are something else entirely.

[iff]

my first thought is that "as long as i don't have to listen to holocaust denial" as .

however while reading this thread, a thought in my mind is about some of those who may be holocaust denial, could part of those wishes to publicly deny the holocaust be those whose fathers or grandfathers took part in the holocaust

of course, then again those wishing to deny the holocaust happened would deny that their relatives had any part in the holocaust because they deny the holocaust happened.

I doubt It. Instead, they would either be silent or do the usual "He was just following orders; he didn't really do anything bad; etc.etc." Holocaust deniers are something else entirely.

Not even one?

[Sally]

my first thought is that "as long as i don't have to listen to holocaust denial" as .

however while reading this thread, a thought in my mind is about some of those who may be holocaust denial, could part of those wishes to publicly deny the holocaust be those whose fathers or grandfathers took part in the holocaust

of course, then again those wishing to deny the holocaust happened would deny that their relatives had any part in the holocaust because they deny the holocaust happened.

I doubt It. Instead, they would either be silent or do the usual "He was just following orders; he didn't really do anything bad; etc.etc." Holocaust deniers are something else entirely.

Not even one?

As I said, I doubt it. Of course neither I nor anyone else can know for certain.

Why, do you know someone who has?

[m4rble]

my first thought is that "as long as i don't have to listen to holocaust denial" as .

however while reading this thread, a thought in my mind is about some of those who may be holocaust denial, could part of those wishes to publicly deny the holocaust be those whose fathers or grandfathers took part in the holocaust

of course, then again those wishing to deny the holocaust happened would deny that their relatives had any part in the holocaust because they deny the holocaust happened.

Holocaust deniers are often neo-nazis who think Hitler could do no wrong.

[iff]

my first thought is that "as long as i don't have to listen to holocaust denial" as .

however while reading this thread, a thought in my mind is about some of those who may be holocaust denial, could part of those wishes to publicly deny the holocaust be those whose fathers or grandfathers took part in the holocaust

of course, then again those wishing to deny the holocaust happened would deny that their relatives had any part in the holocaust because they deny the holocaust happened.

I doubt It. Instead, they would either be silent or do the usual "He was just following orders; he didn't really do anything bad; etc.etc." Holocaust deniers are something else entirely.

Not even one?

As I said, I doubt it. Of course neither I nor anyone else can know for certain.

Why, do you know someone who has?

No, as I said in my post, it had been a thought that had occurred when reading the thread.

[sophy38]

Sometimes, it's not about denying that Jewish people were killed by Nazis, It's about the Number that they claim.

6,000.000 seems a lie. That was what Roger Garaudy wrote about it:

"Les Mythes fondateurs de la politique israelienne (literally, The Founding Myths of Israeli Politics), later translated into English as The Founding Myths of Modern Israel . In the book he wrote of "the myth of the six million" Jewish victims.Because of this, French courts banned any further publication and on 27 February 1998 fined him 240,000 French francs. He was sentenced to a suspended jail sentence of several years. Garaudy appealed this decision to the European Court of Human Rights, but his appeal was rejected as inadmissible^. At his hearing, Garaudy stated that his book in no way condoned National Socialist methods, and that book was an attack on the mythologizing and use of 'the holocaust' by Israeli government as policy. He argued that his book dealt with the Israeli government's use of 'the holocaust' as a "justifying dogma" for its actions, mainly in Palestine and toward Palestinians." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Garaudy)

See this: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Founding_Myths_of_Modern_Israel)

Even now, the Zionists use the Holocaust against others. For example this was on yahoo, days ago:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-leader-iran-mocks-wwii-holocaust-prepares-another-092611308.html

But the reality is that in Iran the theme of the Holocaust cartoon is about that Zionists are acting like Nazis. No one mocks the WWII Holocaust or the Jewish. It's about Zionists and what they do with Muslims of Palestine.

Garaudy's idea is popular in Iran for exposing the Zionists Nazi-like behavior.

A cartoon of the Holocaust themed in Iran:

http://resistart.ir/static/media/uploads/new_galleries/Sajad%20Rafeei%20-%20Iran/sajad_rafeei_-_iran_%281%29.jpg

Even the link above is forbidden out of Iran and no one can find about the the real theme of cartoons!

This is the site of "The International Arts Festival of Resistance". If it's not banned in your area, you can see the reality! (The ways that the superpower countries control the public opinion can be a new Topic!)

http://en.resistart.ir/content/holo-cartoon-is-online-now/

It's the text of Holocaust Cartoon Announcement:

The international cartoon and caricature base under the name "Holo Cartoon" is online now. This website is the first cartoon website about Zionism and we invite all the independent cartoonists in the world with any religion who are against Zionism and Racism and Occupation to send their works to this address: www.holocartoons.com
and the topics are: Promised Land, Holocaust, The Chosen Tribe, 99%, Kabbalah Magic and Zionism in the U.S.A which are mentioned in the preface of website:

In the Name of God of Moses and Mohammad
"Zionism"is our enemy NOT the "Jew".
The true followers of prophet Moses are our brothers just like Moses
is brother of our prophet Mohammad. We respect all religions and all
holy books of God. For us, Zionists are separate from the true
followers of prophet Moses.
Zionism is not a religion, it is a kind of racism, the worst and the
most dangerous kind of racism that has ever existed in the world.
We fight against this racism and invite all the cartoonists around the
world to join us.please join us with sending your works and help us to
fight Zionism.

[Tarfeather]

I think trying to deny / downplay the holocaust in order to criticize Israel's policity with regards to Palestine does more harm than good, because frankly the fact that the holocaust happened and was one of the worst events in recent history does not legitimize Israel's actions anyway. As Mysticus said elsewhere recently, two bads do not make a good. So why the hell would you argue that, all that does is give people ammunition in stamping you as holocaust denier when you have legitimate criticism of Israel's policy.

[-1=e^ipi]

For some reason it is acceptable to deny the Armenian genocide, especially if you are a turk.

Seems like a double standard.

[Tarfeather]

America is the best thing ever and anyone who disagrees is on the side of jhihadists, obviously.

[ChillaKilla]

America is the best thing ever and anyone who disagrees is on the side of jhihadists, obviously.

No joke, when I was a freshman someone started a rumor that I supported jihadists because my best friend was a hijabi. Yep, she was obviously so threatening and radicalized, all 4'9" and cute pastel outfits of hers /sarcasm

[zoom]

IMO there are some reasonable limits on free speech, like:

- spreading personal information

- spreading fake "information" (especially when it is serious)

- security issues (like "police is going to get this mafia boss tomorrow at 5 p.m.", not "saying that you don't like Big Mac is antiamerican")

Holocaust questioning, really questioning (like "hey, I've read somewhere that the gas chambers could not work because XXXX" or "I don't understand how is possible that XXXX") is totally OK in my opinion and should be legal and making it illegal actually aids Holocaust denying.

Holocaust denying is a different story, because it is often based on half-information or really on lies, and that's just not OK.

Actually my attitude toward the Holocaust questioning issue is similar to my attitude towards the antivax movement; it is totally OK (no, more than that: it is NECESSARY) to ask if vaccines are safe and if the side effects are acceptable, and we need to talk about different vaccination schemes and skipping vaccination for some (or all) diseases in some cases and so on... however, once someone starts with "nowadays you cannot die from (some disease), if some child dies from (this disease) it is always medical malpractice", they should be stopped.

Same would go for e.g. posting wrong advises about how to fix your brakes or about dosing / combining medications.

[zoom]

The only people who I seen saying anything against the validity of the Holocaust, simply said it was not as bad as they claimed it to be.

What I've seen was usually revolving around "it was technically impossible", for example when speaking about the gas chambers.

Which is a slippery slope, because gas chambers are the ultimate proof that it was indeed genocide and not some terrible mistake like "but in the war time, there was not enough food even for normal people, so obviously prisoners were hungry, too, and probably more than normal people, and diseases, they did not even know antibiotics back then". Compare it with Holodomor. Compare it with Gulag. Both are lacking this super-hard evidence.

Now I am kinda ambivalent, on one hand it is "unfair" that Holocaust is generally accepted as a genocide, while Holodomor (for example) isn't. On the other hand, as long as we bear Holocaust = genocide in our minds, we also bear (usually subconsciously) the information that "even developed and educated nation can do horrible things, like genocide". And not only some savages "over there". It serves to us as the ultimate warning that no society is immune to radicalization.

[Sally]

For some reason it is acceptable to deny the Armenian genocide, especially if you are a turk.

Seems like a double standard.

Then it's a double standard of the Turks, not the whole world.

[Tarfeather]

For some reason it is acceptable to deny the Armenian genocide, especially if you are a turk.

Seems like a double standard.

Then it's a double standard of the Turks, not the whole world.

"Especially", but not "only". It's not illegal to question the Armenian genocide in Germany, for instance. Seems kind of hypocritical from Germany to me, to be honest, particularly considering we're working closely with Turkey these days.

[-1=e^ipi]

@ Sally - As Tarfeather pointed out, it is also a double standard in Germany.

It's interesting that German society bends over backwards to appease genocide deniers like Erdogan.

[Tarfeather]

It's interesting that German society bends over backwards to appease genocide deniers like Erdogan.

And by "society" you mean "government"?

[-1=e^ipi]

And by "society" you mean "government"?

Government, yes. Also a large segment of the German population supports the government in its actions.

[Tarfeather]

BS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%B6hmermann_affair#Public

A YouGov poll revealed on 12 April, that a majority of the Germans supported Böhmermann's position. 48 percent of the pollees found the poem appropriate, 29 percent view it as undue. A great majority (66 percent) opposed the deletion of the poem on the ZDF website as well as Merkel's criticism of the poem as "intentionally hurtful" (68 percent). Only 15 percent support a criminal investigation, 77 percent objected it.[29] In the meantime, more than 240,000 people signed a petition for Böhmermann at Change.org.[30][31] A further poll by Infratest dimap for the German ARD broadcaster published on 17 April showed that 65 percent of the Germans considered Merkel's decision to allow criminal proceedings against Böhmermann as "wrong", 28 percent supported it. Also Merkel's personal popularity fell, 45 percent were satisfied with her work, while 56 percent were dissatisfied, an all-time low for her in this legislative period.[32]

[-1=e^ipi]

15% supporting a criminal investigation is still a significant portion of the population.

[Tarfeather]

Your claim that the German society supports it still stands refuted. I think this logical fallacy is called "moving the goalpost".

[ChillaKilla]

Your claim that the German society supports it still stands refuted. I think this logical fallacy is called "moving the goalpost".

Ayup

[Sally]

For some reason it is acceptable to deny the Armenian genocide, especially if you are a turk.

Seems like a double standard.

Then it's a double standard of the Turks, not the whole world.

"Especially", but not "only". It's not illegal to question the Armenian genocide in Germany, for instance. Seems kind of hypocritical from Germany to me, to be honest, particularly considering we're working closely with Turkey these days.

Hardly hypocritical. The Nazi movement was the direct responsibility of Germany (at that time), and Germany has very direct reasons to suppress any neo-Nazi movements. They don't have any responsibility for what happened or happens in Turkey, current collaboration or not.

[Guest]

A YouGov poll revealed on 12 April, that a majority of the Germans supported Böhmermann's position. 48 percent of the pollees found the poem appropriate, 29 percent view it as undue. A great majority (66 percent) opposed the deletion of the poem on the ZDF website as well as Merkel's criticism of the poem as "intentionally hurtful" (68 percent). Only 15 percent support a criminal investigation, 77 percent objected it.[29] In the meantime, more than 240,000 people signed a petition for Böhmermann at Change.org.[30][31] A further poll by Infratest dimap for the German ARD broadcaster published on 17 April showed that 65 percent of the Germans considered Merkel's decision to allow criminal proceedings against Böhmermann as "wrong", 28 percent supported it. Also Merkel's personal popularity fell, 45 percent were satisfied with her work, while 56 percent were dissatisfied, an all-time low for her in this legislative period.[32]

These numbers make me very worried about the state of our nation in regards to people standing behind constitutional values. No wonder the extreme-right populists are on the rise. -_-

Obviously, I'm steadfastly in the 29%, the 15%, and the 28% camp, myself.

[-1=e^ipi]

Your claim that the German society supports it still stands refuted. I think this logical fallacy is called "moving the goalpost".

I never said majority.

Similarly, a large segment of American society supports Donald Trump. That doesn't mean that the majority do.

[Joe the Stoic]

It's worth noting that the Nazi Party gained power with only about a third of the vote. A majority is not always needed for someone like Hitler to make its desired impact.

[Tarfeather]

It's worth noting that the Nazi Party gained power with only about a third of the vote. A majority is not always needed for someone like Hitler to make its desired impact.

A third of the vote, and a lot of torture basements for political opponents.