Making love vs. having sex

[HighDrive]

Notes:

- I debated if this post belongs here or in the "sexuals" forum, however, it ended up directed to aces.

- Grossness ahead for some people, specially aromantics.

It is very interesting that in all the posts I've read, everyone refers to sex as if all sex was equal.

I see different kinds of sex and as a sexual, perceive and react differently to the existence or lack of each

Here are some examples of what I see people refer to in those posts:

• Sex as part of the pop culture: References, language, jokes, fashion. I see it mostly offensive because it is mostly sexist. I'm guilty of that and trying to change my perception and behaviour
• Sex as any kind of contact intended to create arousal: This includes dancing, arm touching during a conversation, footsies, sexting, suggestive glances, etc. Those are natural to me even with people I wouldn't consider sexual partners. It just feels good.
• Sex as intercourse: For me this is just the culmination of a sexual activity. After that I stop feeling "sexual" and I just get cuddly

However, there is one kind that seems to be overlooked or bundled with the rest: Making love.

Making love is different in that the physical aspect takes back stage to the emotional communication. It is a very unique form of communication where every single cell and synapses is engaged. It involves every sense and that's why the lights on, the smelling, the tasting, the sweet talking, the touching and ultimately and the physical penetration are important.

As a sexual, I care about the first set, but I know I can get it with anyone else other than my partner (Fetishes, kink, experimentation, just fun).

However, making love can only be with a romantic partner and this is what I miss the most. This is what sometimes makes me blue because I know I can't have it. In that communication I'm shouting and receive no response. It makes me feel alone even when I'm with her.

It does not matter how much love, affection and attention there is otherwise from my partner, It does not matter how much sex there can be with other sexual partners (at least I'm lucky to have that option). That part will always be missing and sometimes it will show in my face and my mood.

I started writing this as cathartic, then I thought about it more rationally and ended up cathartic.

Asexuals, when you see that sad mood on a loving partner, know that it is not your fault but neither ours. Some of us hopefully will have more great moments that will distract us from it (but never compensate), and for some of us it may bee too much to live without. It is very hard to keep making that assessment but know that for now, we've chosen to be with you.

[Rin-likes-rain]

I am a sex-repulsed asexual. I personally see sex as an act of love and romance as opposed to being an act of sexual desire. I understand where you are coming from since my partner is a sexual too. I think because the world advertises sex so much, it's presented as lust, fun, trivial, etc. We asexuals fail to see why it's so important. And to us, it isn't. But I think it's mostly because we are blinded by sexual convenience. we forget that sex is an act of love. Although many of us would still choose no to.

I actually want to sleep with my partner. I want to be close to him and to love him. I'm not sure it I'll ever be able to, but I want to. And that isn't a desire I would have if I didn't have the level of trust and affection for him and vice versa.

I think you should tell your partner this, and introduce her to the idea of sex as a romantic act. One of closeness and togetherness. I'm not saying she'll totally change her mind about sex. She'll probably still see it the way she does. Don't push her. Just introduce the idea to her. At the very least, she'll be able to think about that and decide for herself if that is something she wants to take part in or not. Honesty is key in relationships.

Also.... Please understand, I'm not judging your lifestyle, choices, or agreements. But if my partner needed to have sex with others to be happy, I think I'd let him, but it would break my heart.

[Tarfeather]

Life is pretty terrible. One day, you're going to find this thing that is really important to you, and you will realize that there is no way for you to obtain it, and that you will continue to hurt from the lack of it, being powerless to do anything about this pain, your only option being to endure it.

Ironically, I've found that for me this isn't sex or "making love". It's something else entirely. But if you have found your reason to be miserable and it happens to be sex, I won't take issue with it or question you.

[HeidiUK]

HighDrive, I do see your point, HOWEVER, the physical act is the same. You are still putting a penis in a vagina (or whatever) and thus, an asexual is going to feel the same things they do, whether it's love or pure carnal pleasure.

I don't know, I could be missing the point here.

[Telecaster68]

I suspect it tends to get referred to as 'sex' on AVEN because asexuals have no way to appreciate the intensity of the positive emotional charge for sexuals, beyond in a fairly superficial way. They get it intellectually, but not emotionally, it's baffling, the same way that sexuals are limited when it comes to understanding asexuals are not rejecting their parters as people.

And since for obvious reasons, asexuality terminology is the dominant discourse on AVEN, 'making love' doesn't get mentioned much. We sexuals could start bandying it around, but it would just get blank looks.

ETA: a vital 'not'...

[HighDrive]

Oh. I am not planning to push her and we've already talked about the difference. We have very good comunicación.

I do accept her for who she is. Whole. And I accept that no kind of sex will be part of our relationship.

And im not miserable. Actually, while I'm naturally happy, with her is the happiest I've been.

The original post is an attempt to bridge some of the understanding gap that can cause confusion on both sides.

As in "it's not always about sex" sometimes "sex is about something else".

I think that distinction can help aces put up with us when we react (however unconsciously). As in: you got upset/sad/angry/distant/etc for lack of sex? When it really may be the lack of the other emotions that come with it and that can only come with that level of physical intimacy.

It is not about trying to convince anyone that sex for love should be considered. I understand the act is the same. It is about sharing how we may feel so can come closer to understanding us as we come closer to understanding you.

[Telecaster68]

HighDrive, I do see your point, HOWEVER, the physical act is the same. You are still putting a penis in a vagina (or whatever) and thus, an asexual is going to feel the same things they do, whether it's love or pure carnal pleasure.

I don't know, I could be missing the point here.

You are, and it's pretty much inevitable, because you're asexual. I'm not being snide, just observing.

[Nigellaseed]

I can't speak for all sexual women, but what I sort of read from Highdrive's post was that there are lots of different types of sexual acts and pleasures that we can experience ie flirting, lust, dancing, holding hands, pornography etc etc but making love to me is like all of that but with somebody (your partner, spouse, lover) with brass knobs on, a shot of cocaine, souped up engine and lots of loved up feeling...and that is what we miss from our asexual relationships. This is what we don't want to go on about especially if it upsets you and us. What I am trying to say is the combination together creates a wonderful recipe for us sexuals. The stuff we would like to experience with that special person we love. Does this sound right?

[Galactic Turtle]

One just seems like a fluffed up word for the other and a romantic ideal that I never see or hear about happening in real life. Then again, I don't know anything about these things.

[HighDrive]

Nigellaseed: Does this sound right?

Yes, that sums it up

Galactic turtle: One just seems like a fluffed up word for the other

And that's why I posted, to explain that for some of us it is not the same and it requires a different level of empathy with our reactions.

Remember, I'm framing this within a "loving mixed relationship" where partners want to reach mutual acceptance and understanding.

[Tarfeather]

And im not miserable. Actually, while I'm naturally happy, with her is the happiest I've been.

Then accept that your partner does not desire sex with you and never will, for any reason. The way you feel about sex, the fact you see it as "making love", is irrelevant.

[HighDrive]

And im not miserable. Actually, while I'm naturally happy, with her is the happiest I've been.

Then accept that your partner does not desire sex with you and never will, for any reason. The way you feel about sex, the fact you see it as "making love", is irrelevant.

I did, and I think your replies validates the need for this thread. When a loving sexual partner talks about their sexual feelings and needs does not always mean we are trying to convince. However it is not uncommon that any mention of this will get the reaction you are having. " don't talk to me about sex, I don't want it".

If a loving partner wants to hear about and understand your asexuality. It helps when the opposite is true too.

[Guest]

And im not miserable. Actually, while I'm naturally happy, with her is the happiest I've been.

Then accept that your partner does not desire sex with you and never will, for any reason. The way you feel about sex, the fact you see it as "making love", is irrelevant.

I did, and I think your replies validates the need for this thread. When a loving sexual partner talks about their sexual feelings and needs does not always mean we are trying to convince. However it is not uncommon that any mention of this will get the reaction you are having. " don't talk to me about sex, I don't want it".

If a loving partner wants to hear about and understand your asexuality. It helps when the opposite is true too.

Agreed. Sex is talked about on AVEN as a very physical act, which of course it is, but there seems to be a misunderstanding that it can have different value, different meanings, and different effects depending on when/how/with whom you're doing it. Sometimes it's the most amazing thing ever, sometimes it's boring, sometimes it's uncomfortable, sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's funny... all these things can be true without invalidating any of them. We can pursue different forms of sex for different reasons without invalidating any of them. I've had sex with strangers, I've had sex with friends, I've had sex with people I've loved. One variety isn't morally superior to the other.

How one feels about sex with one's partner is not irrelevant to the partnership. Telling someone who is simply commenting on sex as a general topic to shut up and accept asexuality is... confusing... given there's nothing in this thread relevant to that response.

[Tarfeather]

What.. Those were not general comments about sex. There was a fair bit of projection, hyperbole and romanticizing of OP's own view of sex, and not to forget an attempt to speak for all sexuals / asexuals in OP's situation. I've bolded the most relevant parts for clarification in these quotes.

Making love is different in that the physical aspect takes back stage to the emotional communication. It is a very unique form of communication where every single cell and synapses is engaged. It involves every sense and that's why the lights on, the smelling, the tasting, the sweet talking, the touching and ultimately and the physical penetration are important.

However, making love can only be with a romantic partner and this is what I miss the most. This is what sometimes makes me blue because I know I can't have it. In that communication I'm shouting and receive no response. It makes me feel alone even when I'm with her.

Asexuals, when you see that sad mood on a loving partner, know that it is not your fault but neither ours. Some of us hopefully will have more great moments that will distract us from it (but never compensate), and for some of us it may bee too much to live without. It is very hard to keep making that assessment but know that for now, we've chosen to be with you.

How one feels about sex with one's partner is not irrelevant to the partnership.

It's true, I may be speaking too harshly. You know that I understand all the hardship involved in this process, but if you're unable to leave such a romanticized view of it behind you, it kind of is irrelevant. Your partner needs you to see them for who they are and for how they feel. A desire for them to be and act something they are not, is at best irrelevant.

[Telecaster68]

Acknowledging feelings are part of sex is hardly romanticising it.

[Tarfeather]

It is fortunate, then, that I've never claimed such a thing, Tele.

[HighDrive]

Tarfeather

Please reread: I don't want her "to be and act something they are not"

It is interesting that you miss the point of this thread by focusing on something that is explicitly not on this thread.

[Guest]

I'm not seeing romantization or hyperbole in any of that. And even if there were, I fail to see how that makes the comment "accept asexuality" at all relevant.

[Telecaster68]

No?

"if you're unable to leave such a romanticized view of it behind you, it kind of is irrelevant. "

... in reaction to Skulls saying feelings were an inherent part of sex.

[Tarfeather]

Tarfeather

Please reread: I don't want her "to be and act something they are not"

It is interesting that you miss the point of this thread by focusing on something that is explicitly not on this thread.

Sorry. I don't mean to antagonize you. I know you don't. On a rational level you don't. My point is just.. if that realization had reached through to your heart, I believe you'd be talking very differently. It's one thing to decide rationally, that you do not want sex with your partner. It is another to feel, really feel, just what it is that makes your partner want to be so close to you, despite not sharing your desire for sex.

[Tarfeather]

No?

"if you're unable to leave such a romanticized view of it behind you, it kind of is irrelevant. "

... in reaction to Skulls saying feelings were an inherent part of sex.

It was a general "you", and the person I was basing my statement off was High Drive's original post, not Skulls.

[Guest]

Tarfeather

Please reread: I don't want her "to be and act something they are not"

It is interesting that you miss the point of this thread by focusing on something that is explicitly not on this thread.

Sorry. I don't mean to antagonize you. I know you don't. On a rational level you don't. My point is just.. if that realization had reached through to your heart, I believe you'd be talking very differently. It's one thing to decide rationally, that you do not want sex with your partner. It is another to feel, really feel, just what it is that makes your partner want to be so close to you, despite not sharing your desire for sex.

I think that's totally untrue. Accepting someone else's feelings does not mean adopting them or ignoring your own.

If it's so very important to understand asexual partners, wouldn't that moral imperative go both ways?

[Telecaster68]

It didn't read like a generalised you and it was most certainly in response Skulls' quote. But, whatever.

[Tarfeather]

I think that's totally untrue. Accepting someone else's feelings does not mean adopting them or ignoring your own.

If it's so very important to understand asexual partners, wouldn't that moral imperative go both ways?

That's an interesting quandry, isn't it? You might say, because the sexual is able to experience what the asexual experiences, but not vice verca, they're the only one who even has the option of understanding the other.

But that's kind of beside the point. It's not about morals or accepting your partner. The desire to have sex with a specific person, is a very specific thing. It won't have substance if it's not created around the reality of that person. That would be so even with a sexual partner. If your desire makes you feel disconnected and shut out, unable to communicate, then the way to solve that problem is to connect those desires to the actual person, not to your own internal drives. It's not about your partner, it's about you and your relationship.

[Tarfeather]

It didn't read like a generalised you and it was most certainly in response Skulls' quote. But, whatever.

Criticism on the clarity of my statements noted. I still meant what I meant, however poorly it was formulated.

[Telecaster68]

"You might say, because the sexual is able to experience what the asexual experiences, but not vice verca, they're the only one who even has the option of understanding the other."

But they can understand emotional pain.

[Tarfeather]

"You might say, because the sexual is able to experience what the asexual experiences, but not vice verca, they're the only one who even has the option of understanding the other."

But they can understand emotional pain.

Emotional pain.. you mean the thing that your partner will feel when you flat out tell them no matter what they do, it won't be enough for you? Yep, some of them totally know how that feels.

[Telecaster68]

Yep, that's their own pain, I imagine they understand that. I understand their feelings too but you don't seem expect this to be reciprocal.

[HighDrive]

Tarfeather, thanks, I haven taken your comments as antagonic. This conversation we are having is the purpose of this thread.

Regarding your comments:

"the sexual is able to experience what the asexual experiences, but not vice verca"

I'm trying to explain that it goes both ways. A sexual cannot experience what an ace experiences it is truly like tryin to understand that someone can live without breathing. (Please accept that this is how we see it. No need to challenge this on logical grounds).

"they're the only one who even has the option of understanding the other."

I think full understanding in either direction is almost impossible given we cannot experience the same, however I hope that by talking we can reduce the gap in understanding.

I hope this thread helps aces to accept our views, words feelings even if you can't understand them.

[HighDrive]

Tarfeather: yes reciprocal understanding of the differences to avoid the pain.

For alos: the pain of not being able to share that intimacy with their loved one

For aces: the pain that they may not fulfill it.

And for both that mutual understanding can help reduce the pain.

And yes. Sexuals in a mixed relationship accept that trade off and minimize the pain if the rest of the relationship is worth it. It doesn't mean it's not there or that we should hide it.