Non-binary/trans men can't be feminine

[Rin-likes-rain]

It seems to be a constant trend that in order to be non-binary or to be a trans guy, you have to forsake anything feminine. I see non-binary people who identify as girls wearing suits, jeans, dress shirts, and basically looking like pre-t pre-op transgender men. But if you really think about it, all those things are traditionally masculine clothes made for the male binary gender. We encourage young people to fight gender norms and to break free from feminine stereotypes. But the second a trans/non-binary person wears anything remotely feminine, people use that as an excuse to de-validate your gender identity. As if masculinity means neutral and femininity means girl.

Everywhere I look, it's all, dress in mens clothing and don't give a f*ck. Be like a man to be equal to man. But why isn't it the other way around? What is so wrong with being a girl, being feminine, or liking feminine things that the world sees as demeaning, weak, and proof of someone actually being a girl? A transgender girl could wear jeans and a hoodie, and nobody (besides the obvious transphobic people) questions the authenticity of her gender. But the second a trans man wears a skirt, suddenly he's not really a he, he's a she (which is total bull)!

I don't know about you, but I'm really sick of femininity being seen as lesser.

[Chardog]

I am genderqueer (along the lines of a non- transitioning FtM). My internal programming is definitively male, but my outward appearance is anywhere from androgynous/tomboy to high femme. And I've had an attraction to feminine/androgynous men since toddlerhood. It's a shame that femininity on a base of masculinity is so taboo.. Masculinity on a feminine base is much more accepted (and I genuinely wish I was a feminine boy versus a masculine girl).

[Pi(e)]

You have a really good point, I totally agree! It really bothers me that there is a double standard.

It is kind of interesting thought to think where some of this came from. It used to be that women couldn't wear men's clothing at all and women's clothing was often impractical too(which was even so much worse!). So then women fought for the right to wear men's clothing, and it became normal. Men on the other hand, felt no need at the time to wear impractical women's clothes, so that never became socially acceptable. So now, while anyone can wear men's clothing, it is still often not seen as socially acceptable for anyone other than women to wear women's clothing. This is silly, and I think it should change. Also, I wish people would just get it into their heads that you can present however you want and it doesn't change your gender.

[Star Bit]

It's not common, but butch/tomboy trans women and effeminate/tomgirl(?) trans men do exist.

[PhoenixButterfly]

Well, some gay cis-guys are feminine. So, why not transguys too? Just like some lesbians are butch. Therefore, there must be some butch transwomen too. Honestly, I don't understand why some people make such a big deal about gender. I mean, we're all human and that's all that should really matter. Who cares what the haters think?

[Dodecahedron314]

I find the whole "femme unless proven otherwise" thing really frustrating. I'd have to bind and wear a full suit to even have half a chance of getting anyone to see me as anything other than female, and even then it would be a rarity. Wearing a T-shirt and jeans that aren't even remotely gendered? Definitely a girl. Completely neutral or even masculine outfit, with a single purple or brightly colored accessory? Girl. I'm not even trying to pass as male, I'm just trying to get people to quit calling me "she" and "ma'am" and "young lady" every single time they address me.

[S.Kobold]

I think Dodec hit the nail there - when you experience flares of dysphoria any time someone refers to you as a woman then you tend to fly to the other extreme. Especially if you do not look "androgynous".

In my experience people tend to feel more need to refer to gender around women than they do around men. I get called Ma'am and miss, girl, lady etc. a significant amount more than my cis male colleagues get sir, mr guy ... which I can only assume is abut implied power dynamics?

[Emery.]

I find the whole "femme unless proven otherwise" thing really frustrating. I'd have to bind and wear a full suit to even have half a chance of getting anyone to see me as anything other than female, and even then it would be a rarity. Wearing a T-shirt and jeans that aren't even remotely gendered? Definitely a girl. Completely neutral or even masculine outfit, with a single purple or brightly colored accessory? Girl. I'm not even trying to pass as male, I'm just trying to get people to quit calling me "she" and "ma'am" and "young lady" every single time they address me.

I've read somewhere I can't find now that you need 3 masculine characteristics to balance out the impression of 1 feminine characteristic. It sucks.

[Rin-likes-rain]

I find the whole "femme unless proven otherwise" thing really frustrating. I'd have to bind and wear a full suit to even have half a chance of getting anyone to see me as anything other than female, and even then it would be a rarity. Wearing a T-shirt and jeans that aren't even remotely gendered? Definitely a girl. Completely neutral or even masculine outfit, with a single purple or brightly colored accessory? Girl. I'm not even trying to pass as male, I'm just trying to get people to quit calling me "she" and "ma'am" and "young lady" every single time they address me.

I know exactly how this feels. But even if I were to wear a suit, my face is too feminine. Although, I went to the movies and the person at the ticket stand assumed I was a twelve-year-old boy. I'll freaking take it. I wasn't even trying to pass, but that's the first time anybody saw me as anything other than female without having to tell them.

[Emery.]

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/04/gnc-dont-want-pass-for-cis/

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/policing-men-feminine-things/

Those.

[ChillaKilla]

Femme/feminine guys are definitely attractive to me

[Chardog]

I may need to go to man buns anonymous 😳

[Koriander]

While I'm a trans girl i see what you mean but i have the opposite, cause of my masculine features and body I look like a cross-dresser cause I haven't started hormones and people harass me for wearing feminine clothing. It's sickening, just like the issue above.

[Titus]

I am a trans male and I'm just staring T. I dress what I suppose people would consider feminine (Ex- Pink clothes, bright/pastel colors, tight pants/shorts, etc.) and despite me having a somewhat masculine face, binding and wearing a packer and I usually feel like I pass and read as male pretty well but I still get addressed as a women. I don't really understand it- I just kinda try and ignore it, but it has sorta turned my away from clothes I typically like. I suppose it also doesn't help that I live in a pretty macho-man, "All men act like cowboys!" kind of town? I don't know, it's weird though.

[vmdraco]

On 4/30/2016 at 0:04 PM, Rin-likes-rain said:

I know exactly how this feels. But even if I were to wear a suit, my face is too feminine. Although, I went to the movies and the person at the ticket stand assumed I was a twelve-year-old boy. I'll freaking take it. I wasn't even trying to pass, but that's the first time anybody saw me as anything other than female without having to tell them.

lmao omg I get the same thing.  It's the times when you're not trying hard to pass that you're gendered correctly, which is infuriating yet also satisfying.  I was in a Starbucks once, dressed in baggy sweatpants, a t-shirt and binder, nothing special or something to scream masculine; I was just getting into something comfortable to grab coffee since I ran out at home.  The men behind the counter actually called me "man", which is so rare it's amazing.  I am never gendered correctly by cismen and I was momentarily stunned that they called me a man/guy.  I was thrilled but also really confused and kind of irritated that me not giving a shit for one day warranted this bestowed gift.  The only thing I could think of was that, based on me being a string bean and looking like I have defined pecks with a binder on, they assumed I was a transman and were just being courteous and using male pronouns.  Which is the most positive thing I could conjure from that experience. Or best case scenario they thought I was a cisguy.  Win-win either way.  As you said, I'll take it.

 

In regards to the topic, I completely agree with you.  It's so trivial nowadays and honestly quite silly.  There are plenty of feminine cisguys out there who used to play with Barbies as a kid or with their little sister, or like makeup and are straight, or like being feminine and still being 100% male; just look at YouTube folk like Shane Dawson or uppercaseCHASE, they are still male-identifying but enjoy female activities.  The issues, I find, is that from a very early age the concept of femininity is associated with being weak and unfit, which seems to be the epicenter of all things related to masculinity and what it means to be masculine.  There isn't anything wrong with women or femininity, and I'm sure if you ask any cisguy they'll agree that there isn't anything particularly wrong with female things because I'm sure they have no issues with their female siblings or girlfriends and mothers, but the moment it comes down to their masculinity and what it means for them and their ego, they dismiss it and make fun of it to feel better about their own reality as the "typical male", as if it's something to feel ashamed about or it's something they have to prove. 

 

I struggle a lot with this myself as someone pre-t and pre-op.  I feel I have to overcompensate in order to fit in or be taken seriously.  I identify as masculine and have for a long time, but what stopped me from thinking I was male as a teenager came down to my internalized misogyny for other girls, and the feminine things I liked (cute animals, bright colors, female pop singers, etc).  I was pretty confused and uncertain of myself, which I think is what a lot of cisguys deal with as well, and I don't blame them when our entire culture is built off of how men see the world.  Who the hell started this shit anyway?  Because it's overgeneralized bullshit.