The job market is all wrong

[sindi]

This is from the point of view of an individual, but I think the points stand even in a wider concept.

So, it is of course reasonable to expect, that everyone in the society would "do their part", i.e. work.

But the fact, that you have to struggle tirelessly and beg on your knees* to even get the "privilege" of doing the simplest job, is very unbalanced and twisted.

Of course everyone knows, that a high unemployment is bad. But how often do we think about how absolutely unreasonable it is from the individual's perspective?

I mean, many people who have struggled very hard with getting a job, still tend to see it as "just the way things are", as if it was perfectly natural and inevitable, that the society works like this.

How do they not lose their societal morals all together? I know I have lost them, and don't tell me to just "get off your ass and make the required effort like a man" or whatever. I might be lazy, but this is not about laziness - the system honestly looks flat out wrong to me.

*job hunting

[Busrider]

Agreed, it isn't great. But thats the way it gains it's stability, isn't it?

If we were kind of really free, wouldn't we slave off the next video game (+ platform update) & say "kiss my behind, boss"? As things are we continue going to work, over-earning, piling up surplus money buying something we don't want badly but can use somehow, since inflation would eat the money or too much wealth piled up might stand in the way of our next social security claim.

Wouldn't the entire economy collapse if we could cease or reduce working, whenever we have a new toy & full fridge?

How about those stupid daily compromises? - Overtime, enthusiasm, handling workload peaks? Or even showing up when the boss demands? - I feel encouraged to make them by the perspective of being forced to mock animal shelter cages or slave as an asparagus harvester in case I'll lose my besides everything still more convenient current job.

[sindi]

You're missing my point, A-gent. I didn't say that it's unreasonable to expect people to work - I said the opposite. It's the job hunting aspect that is unreasonable.

[Jhale]

Society is definitely going to collapse if the job system does not change. The system is completely unsustainable and overly strict. Without a holistic outlook on the world, the economy is not going to work out. Freelance work is the only way to the future, but it is hard to even get that started and to maintain that.

[sindi]

Freelance work is quite stressful too. You have to constantly look for new job opportunities, market yourself, network... and your income fluctuates and is insecure. Sounds like something that would burn me out before I could get started.

[CaptainYesterday]

[deleted]

[Sally]

It's the job hunting aspect that is unreasonable.

what would you consider to be reasonable?

[sindi]

It's the job hunting aspect that is unreasonable.

what would you consider to be reasonable?

For example in the 80s there was basically no unemployment in Finland (where I live) and it was extremely easy for anyone to get a job. That sounds reasonable to me.

[Sally]

It's the job hunting aspect that is unreasonable.

what would you consider to be reasonable?

For example in the 80s there was basically no unemployment in Finland (where I live) and it was extremely easy for anyone to get a job. That sounds reasonable to me.

That was true pretty much everywhere in the 80s.

But I didn't really mean what in the past was reasonable. I guess what I meant was that you have to deal with what IS, not what you want it to be.

[sindi]

But I didn't really mean what in the past was reasonable. I guess what I meant was that you have to deal with what IS, not what you want it to be.

Of course I have to deal with it, but the fact that it's so unreasonable sure has eaten away my faith in society and any sense of responsibility towards it. Like... no matter what the reasons or excuses are for the economy being this way nowadays, from a personal perspective, unreasonable expectation are put on me. Why should I not feel resentment towards the system that put them in place?

[Zerο]

It all comes down to supply and demand. Employers will trip over themselves trying to poach from each other if you're highly skilled professional.

[Sally]

Of course I have to deal with it, but the fact that it's so unreasonable sure has eaten away my faith in society and any sense of responsibility towards it. Like... no matter what the reasons or excuses are for the economy being this way nowadays, from a personal perspective, unreasonable expectation are put on me. Why should I not feel resentment towards the system that put them in place?

Because it isn't about you; it's how the world is now, and feeding your resentment isn't going to help you.

[sindi]

It all comes down to supply and demand. Employers will trip over themselves trying to poach from each other if you're highly skilled professional.

And that's exactly the problem. Every single individual should be a highly skilled professional* these days in order to have the "privilege" of working for their basic necessities in life.

*ok, I'm a bit hyperbolic, but it's not far off

[sindi]

Of course I have to deal with it, but the fact that it's so unreasonable sure has eaten away my faith in society and any sense of responsibility towards it. Like... no matter what the reasons or excuses are for the economy being this way nowadays, from a personal perspective, unreasonable expectation are put on me. Why should I not feel resentment towards the system that put them in place?

Because it isn't about you; it's how the world is now, and feeding your resentment isn't going to help you.

Well, what if I simply fail to meet the expectations because they're too high. Should I just die in a ditch? Do you believe in social darwinism?

[Zerο]

Yeah you missed my point, that being that the power swings towards the worker when their skills are highly sought after. There's definitely a moderate area between these two circumstances, but if it's a "simple" job you're on the unfavorable side of things.

[sindi]

@zero I get that, but I don't really see how it ties into my point. Of course the job market is more favourable to some. Doesn't make it any more reasonable in general. And note, that I'm mainly talking about ways how the high unemployment makes it unreasonable to the individual - not saying that employees just generally are unreasonable.

[sindi]

Sally? Zero? Any counter-points?

[sonofzeal]

Yeah you missed my point, that being that the power swings towards the worker when their skills are highly sought after. There's definitely a moderate area between these two circumstances, but if it's a "simple" job you're on the unfavorable side of things.

The problem is that the balance point has shifted dramatically in the past 20 years, and a lot of people seem not to have realized.

Consider this way. Historically, holding a university degree put you solidly in that "highly skilled worker" category. If you have a BSc, that's your meal ticket right there. But the percentage of people holding university degrees has risen rapidly in the last few decades, whereas the job market for worker in those categories has shrunk dramatically since the '08 collapse (jobs are back up, but more retail and minimum wage rather than the factory or office jobs that were shed). Demand is lower, supply is higher, and as a result people who would have been considered "highly skilled workers" 20 or 30 years ago, people who've invested thousands or tens of thousands of dollars into advanced education, are on the losing end of that. It's still possible to be highly sought after, but the bar for that has gone up way more than most older people seem to expect.

So yeah, the same general principals of supply and demand still apply to the current job market, but the calibration thereof is ruthlessly punishing compared to where it was for most of the 20th century.

[Skycaptain]

^^ nicely put

Speaking as a taxi driver who went to university I just made life the best I could.

But, as a corollary, I own my business, how many people can say that. Leaving university and going straight on the dole was painful, but, given my social issues I've done OK

Having had to apply for jobs in the past I empathise with those who feel that they are prostituting themselves to keep a roof over their head

[Sally]

"Highly skilled workers" now are tech programmers, not people with masters'/PhD degrees. I live in a city that's turned into a tech paradise for people who can afford $3,000/month for a one-bedroom apartment because they are employed by Google and Amazon and Microsoft. People with graduate degrees in everything except computer science are baristas.

[Sally]

Sally? Zero? Any counter-points?

You're expecting your job/world environment to be "reasonable". What led you to think that it would be that way?

[sindi]

Sally? Zero? Any counter-points?

You're expecting your job/world environment to be "reasonable". What led you to think that it would be that way?

I didn't think that it would be that way. But I most definitely think that it should be that way.

[sonofzeal]

"Highly skilled workers" now are tech programmers, not people with masters'/PhD degrees. I live in a city that's turned into a tech paradise for people who can afford $3,000/month for a one-bedroom apartment because they are employed by Google and Amazon and Microsoft. People with graduate degrees in everything except computer science are baristas.

I was smart and got a degree in computer science, double-major'd with mathematics, with some post-grad Simulation Design work thrown in, and used my time between classes and in summers to work directly with professors on research papers, leading up to a co-authorship on a paper in a peer-reviewed journal.

Guess what I've been able to do with all that qualification since then? Land a couple tutoring gigs, and not even get a callback from any programming jobs I applied for. I'm currently one of those people who get to help you when your home internet isn't working, which is mostly just making sure you have it plugged in right and sending resets. Great use of my qualifications, I'm sure. Despite that, by hard work and some luck, I've paid off all the student loans and made a down-payment on my first proper mortgage. Almost none of my friends my age can say as much, barring those getting coddled along by rich parents.

I know friends who made it in the industry too, people who went above and beyond, people who devoted their entire youths to utter mastery in the craft, these are the people that get rewarded with the types of career positions that were just taken as a matter of course a generation or three previous. And I know people in Silicon Valley living out of their van because even in their "career positions" they still can't afford the sort of housing prices that exist in that area.

But yeah, sure, we're just naive, entitled losers who could have the same success previous generations had if we simply applied ourselves, right?

[NerotheReaper]

I have seen a lot of people struggling, people who are in absolute poverty. It is sad, I have noticed a lot of people are trying to start up their own businesses. I am all for supporting the small businesses whenever possible, because it is not easy starting up your own company. It takes a lot of time and money, and if the business can be successful that is great. The more successful a company is, the more employees that will be needed.

[Zerο]

"Highly skilled workers" now are tech programmers, not people with masters'/PhD degrees. I live in a city that's turned into a tech paradise for people who can afford $3,000/month for a one-bedroom apartment because they are employed by Google and Amazon and Microsoft. People with graduate degrees in everything except computer science are baristas.

I was smart and got a degree in computer science, double-major'd with mathematics, with some post-grad Simulation Design work thrown in, and used my time between classes and in summers to work directly with professors on research papers, leading up to a co-authorship on a paper in a peer-reviewed journal.

Guess what I've been able to do with all that qualification since then? Land a couple tutoring gigs, and not even get a callback from any programming jobs I applied for. I'm currently one of those people who get to help you when your home internet isn't working, which is mostly just making sure you have it plugged in right and sending resets. Great use of my qualifications, I'm sure. Despite that, by hard work and some luck, I've paid off all the student loans and made a down-payment on my first proper mortgage. Almost none of my friends my age can say as much, barring those getting coddled along by rich parents.

I know friends who made it in the industry too, people who went above and beyond, people who devoted their entire youths to utter mastery in the craft, these are the people that get rewarded with the types of career positions that were just taken as a matter of course a generation or three previous. And I know people in Silicon Valley living out of their van because even in their "career positions" they still can't afford the sort of housing prices that exist in that area.

But yeah, sure, we're just naive, entitled losers who could have the same success previous generations had if we simply applied ourselves, right?

On the reverse side of that, my friend's wife got a degree in Biological Systems (basically Environmental Engineering) and wasn't able to find a job. Instead she just read a book on programming, got an interview with a small company and one year later she's doing programming for Nike.

Luck can swing both ways, but relatively speaking, if you're going to go to college then tech or moving to a city with strong demand for your profession are your safest bets.

[Fire & Rain]

As someone who is currently suffering from high unemployment rate in the job market I can relate. I did everything I was supposed to do. Went to a good university. Got degrees and good grades. Gained experience. No one wants to hire full time permanent employee lately because of the declining economy here. It was quite easy after I got my first degree. I didn't even have to look around at all but this time it's so difficult! I can tell there's a serious supply and demand issue going on. I kind of regret going back to uni for a full time course now. I'm job hunting every single day for a while now but I noticed that it's the same jobs being recycled from same companies every time. They are just not hiring at all. I think they only put them up there because they are required to legally or something.

"Highly skilled workers" now are tech programmers, not people with masters'/PhD degrees. I live in a city that's turned into a tech paradise for people who can afford $3,000/month for a one-bedroom apartment because they are employed by Google and Amazon and Microsoft. People with graduate degrees in everything except computer science are baristas.

I was smart and got a degree in computer science, double-major'd with mathematics, with some post-grad Simulation Design work thrown in, and used my time between classes and in summers to work directly with professors on research papers, leading up to a co-authorship on a paper in a peer-reviewed journal.

Guess what I've been able to do with all that qualification since then? Land a couple tutoring gigs, and not even get a callback from any programming jobs I applied for. I'm currently one of those people who get to help you when your home internet isn't working, which is mostly just making sure you have it plugged in right and sending resets. Great use of my qualifications, I'm sure. Despite that, by hard work and some luck, I've paid off all the student loans and made a down-payment on my first proper mortgage. Almost none of my friends my age can say as much, barring those getting coddled along by rich parents.

I know friends who made it in the industry too, people who went above and beyond, people who devoted their entire youths to utter mastery in the craft, these are the people that get rewarded with the types of career positions that were just taken as a matter of course a generation or three previous. And I know people in Silicon Valley living out of their van because even in their "career positions" they still can't afford the sort of housing prices that exist in that area.

But yeah, sure, we're just naive, entitled losers who could have the same success previous generations had if we simply applied ourselves, right?

I also have two degrees (one in business and one in CS which used to a lethal combination!!) and I can't even land a job right now. I'm not Mark Zuckerberg but I do not suck at my job. I'm a fast learner. The last company I was working at had budget cuts and didn't take me back after the contract expired although I worked my ass off and my boss wanted to rehire me. I put in 10-12 hrs everyday which made me disappear from AVEN for a long time. It was eat, sleep, work and repeat around that time. There was some thread about millennials on here and I agree with it. We are being dealt with bad hands here. With all the money and effort I had put in I'm not getting anything back. It makes me angry thinking about it.

[WoodwindWhistler]

This expresses it well: https://medium.com/@joe_brewer/the-mental-disease-of-late-stage-capitalism-4a7bb2a1411c#.uyjxmqpgb

We need more local co-ops, worker-owned businesses, more collectively managed and affordable housing, etc. This corporatism where the 1% control all the wealth and mega-businesses and people scrape to even survive and still fall further into debt can't sustain itself, economically OR environmentally speaking.

[Mocha Jo]

Interesting reads, there. I just got lost for a couple of hours that I should have been doing other things, LOL.

I am 59. The job market is not only rigged against the millenials, but heaven forbid you be aged. I consider myself lucky that I have a job that I can do until dementia takes me over, but I will never be able to retire due to unfortunate life events (like kids and 2 divorces).

The system is rigged, and the wool is firmly pulled over the eyes of the majority of people.

[Sally]

The system isn't rigged. The system is what it is; it's a natural system in capitalism. It doesn't have to be rigged.

[sonofzeal]

The system isn't rigged. The system is what it is; it's a natural system in capitalism. It doesn't have to be rigged.

"Rigged" is, perhaps, the wrong word. "Unsustainable" might be better. "Dying" could also be argued for. Death and extinction are things that happen in "natural systems" too, after all.