Dont be deceptive about your sexuality

[Guest]

In that sense, yes, definitely.

[Sally]

I agree with all that, but ultimately they're all about how an asexual feels about themselves playing out into the relationship.

No. They're about the fact that trying to do sex for, say, 10 years and not liking it means that you don't need to keep trying because it won't get any better. If you go into a sexual relationship not knowing that asexuality exists, and think you just don't really know how to do it, you keep trying. And THEN, you find you can't do it anymore because it's just too much "not good", and your partner is pissed. And it's your fault.

It's lose-lose for the partnership. But it isn't because the asexual is a liar.

[Telecaster68]

You've just described how the asexuals feelings play out into the relationship.

And I've explicitly said the OP's wife wasn't lying.

[Sally]

You've just described how the asexuals feelings play out into the relationship.

And I've explicitly said the OP's wife wasn't lying.

Sorry -- I started out quoting you and then got generally upset about all that's been said.

[Guest]

There's nothing deceptive about behaving the way you've explicitly been told to behave until you just can't do it anymore. Have a feeling straight white heterosexual men haven't had the experience of discovering that you may never be happy doing what you've been told will make you happy, and so they don't understand it and call it "lying". I consider that immature. Grow the F up and recognize that your life experience isn't everyone's life experience. Want someone just like you?? Go find someone like you and stop trying to force someone else into your restrictive little mold.

The idea that changing over time is "deceptive" is clearly a self-protection paradigm aimed at maintaining the accuser's worldview. If you don't believe that feelings can change, if you don't believe that you can be in the dark about your own feelings, if you believe your partner is required to meet your needs, the whole "she lied" theory is helpful in maintaining those beliefs. It's just that those beliefs are wrong, shouldn't be maintained, and instead of whining about it, the person should take the opportunity to expand their understanding.

Oh and, slack cut? No. Slack doesn't get cut for someone insulting, belittling, and guilting another person just for being true to themselves. No slack cut for that.

^^^ This about sums up what I'm thinking in relation to a lot of the comments in this thread.

[Telecaster68]

Um, the only person who's said it was deception is the OP, as far as I can see.

[Tarfeather]

There's nothing deceptive about behaving the way you've explicitly been told to behave until you just can't do it anymore. Have a feeling straight white heterosexual men haven't had the experience of discovering that you may never be happy doing what you've been told will make you happy, and so they don't understand it and call it "lying". I consider that immature. Grow the F up and recognize that your life experience isn't everyone's life experience. Want someone just like you?? Go find someone like you and stop trying to force someone else into your restrictive little mold.

Humans have agency. Being told to behave in a certain way, in no way means you have to do it. If you decide that you want to give the impression of enjoying sex, despite deep down knowing that you do not, that is still your decision and your responsibility. And yes, making choices that will lead others to believe something that you, at some level, know to be false, we call that deceptive. It happens to most people, as we're no saints, but let's call it what it is.

[Lucinda]

Some people may actually equate sex with procreation.

In fact, some can't believe there are people who don't desire sex with others because of the biological imperative instilled in each of us to perpetuate the species.

So, isn't it at all possible, and quite likely, that once that imperative has been met, the biological need for sex falls to the wayside? For some. It seems like a perfectly natural occurrence to me. And one may not know when the end of their childbearing inclination may happen until it actually happens. For some.

I would imagine, or at least hope, that a couple having lots of baby-making sex would have discussed potential children and how they would impact lifestyle and future plans. Did both people see children as a goal -or- a secondary and possible consequence?

But let us not forget, her deception not only made her a mother, it had the unfortunate consequence of leaving a father in its wake.

If one sees fatherhood as an unfortunate consequence of sex, then he should have said so from the first hello.

Lucinda

[Sally]

Humans have agency. Being told to behave in a certain way, in no way means you have to do it. If you decide that you want to give the impression of enjoying sex, despite deep down knowing that you do not, that is still your decision and your responsibility. And yes, making choices that will lead others to believe something that you, at some level, know to be false, we call that deceptive. It happens to most people, as we're no saints, but let's call it what it is.

How many times do many of us have to say "I thought I just didn't know how to do it so I kept trying to get it right" for you to actually listen to us? I know it's easier to decide we're lying to our partners, but you do have your own agency to maybe think about it before you make that claim.

[Philip027]

But we're told (by we, I mean AVEN as a community) that since asexuality is an orientation, you don't need to have had sex to know you don't want to have it, in the same way I know I'm not interested in sex with men without trying it. Okay, you may not have a name for it (which is where I agree more visibility would be a Good Thing) but you know what you feel like.

You can't have it both ways - you know you don't want sex, and yet you don't know...

All of that is variable. Not all of us treat asexuality as an orientation, and not everyone just knows this stuff beforehand. Some of us might, but you know what they say about assumptions.

[Guest]

But let us not forget, her deception not only made her a mother, it had the unfortunate consequence of leaving a father in its wake.

If one sees fatherhood as an unfortunate consequence of sex, then he should have said so from the first hello.

...and always, always use contraceptives, with no exception.

Knowingly going for PiV without them, even once, means that one has accepted that consequence, no matter how unfortunate one may find it... at the very least, one has accepted it by reckless acquiescence.

[Guest]

There's nothing deceptive about behaving the way you've explicitly been told to behave until you just can't do it anymore. Have a feeling straight white heterosexual men haven't had the experience of discovering that you may never be happy doing what you've been told will make you happy, and so they don't understand it and call it "lying". I consider that immature. Grow the F up and recognize that your life experience isn't everyone's life experience. Want someone just like you?? Go find someone like you and stop trying to force someone else into your restrictive little mold.

Humans have agency. Being told to behave in a certain way, in no way means you have to do it. If you decide that you want to give the impression of enjoying sex, despite deep down knowing that you do not, that is still your decision and your responsibility. And yes, making choices that will lead others to believe something that you, at some level, know to be false, we call that deceptive. It happens to most people, as we're no saints, but let's call it what it is.

You really don't get it. Like, in a truly significant way. This is exactly what I'm talking about... the need to label someone else as deceptive because you choose not to believe their reality...

Your inability to see outside your own experiences makes you see them as a liar, but it doesn't actually make them a liar. It just makes you wrong. Refusing to take responsibility for your lack of understanding by blaming or guilting them is reprehensible.

[Telecaster68]

If someone's giving every appearance of enjoying sex, as the OP's wife was, and mine was, but they're in internal turmoil about it and not telling their partner then on that level they're being deceptive. There might be perfectly good reasons for not telling them, but they are still being deceptive.

[Tarfeather]

Humans have agency. Being told to behave in a certain way, in no way means you have to do it. If you decide that you want to give the impression of enjoying sex, despite deep down knowing that you do not, that is still your decision and your responsibility. And yes, making choices that will lead others to believe something that you, at some level, know to be false, we call that deceptive. It happens to most people, as we're no saints, but let's call it what it is.

How many times do many of us have to say "I thought I just didn't know how to do it so I kept trying to get it right" for you to actually listen to us? I know it's easier to decide we're lying to our partners, but you do have your own agency to maybe think about it before you make that claim.

I think what you're missing is that OP isn't talking about you or most asexuals, he's talking about his own partner. If that's how it feels, and you tell that to your partner, then there's no issue? But if you pretend everything is okay, and just hope that some day it actually will be okay, you're deceiving your partner. This isn't even specific to asexuality. If I pretend I really enjoy something my partner likes to do, but I actually don't, and one day I snap and refuse to do it anymore and the relationship breaks over it, I've been deceptive for not telling my partner that I didn't enjoy it. It's pretty unambiguous.

Telecaster: ninja'd D:

[timewarp]

Before I realised I was asexual, I had a relationship in which my partner really desired sex and felt as if it was her fault that I couldn't do it, as I had no other explanation (to summarise a long and uncomfortable backstory). I still feel bad about making her feel like this, to put it mildly, so I know exactly what you are feeling. You've said you are not coming here for advice so I won't preach any to you, only to say that you should be certain of what your wife actually thinks. Perhaps she is questioning all sorts of things about herself and her feelings.

In a way, I would be more relieved if there was a 'politically correct' consensus about asexuality, at least it would mean we were visible and acknowledged as actually existing...

I had a pretty similar experience. Only that at that time I didn't know the first thing about asexuality, and looked into sexual dysfunction as an explanation. It was a long, complicated, process to find out that I'm asexual.

TheSexualHusband, instead of making accusations, how about helping people understand asexuality? Do active visibility work, explain every detail about asexuality to every single person you ever meet, and when you're done with that, and you're sure that everybody in your surroundings has a fair chance to know if they are asexual or not, then you can start complaining.

[Sally]

Humans have agency. Being told to behave in a certain way, in no way means you have to do it. If you decide that you want to give the impression of enjoying sex, despite deep down knowing that you do not, that is still your decision and your responsibility. And yes, making choices that will lead others to believe something that you, at some level, know to be false, we call that deceptive. It happens to most people, as we're no saints, but let's call it what it is.

How many times do many of us have to say "I thought I just didn't know how to do it so I kept trying to get it right" for you to actually listen to us? I know it's easier to decide we're lying to our partners, but you do have your own agency to maybe think about it before you make that claim.

I think what you're missing is that OP isn't talking about you or most asexuals, he's talking about his own partner. If that's how it feels, and you tell that to your partner, then there's no issue? But if you pretend everything is okay, and just hope that some day it actually will be okay, you're deceiving your partner. This isn't even specific to asexuality. If I pretend I really enjoy something my partner likes to do, but I actually don't, and one day I snap and refuse to do it anymore and the relationship breaks over it, I've been deceptive for not telling my partner that I didn't enjoy it. It's pretty unambiguous.

Actually the OP was talking about "asexuals", not just his own partner.

[Nigellaseed]

Before I realised I was asexual, I had a relationship in which my partner really desired sex and felt as if it was her fault that I couldn't do it, as I had no other explanation (to summarise a long and uncomfortable backstory). I still feel bad about making her feel like this, to put it mildly, so I know exactly what you are feeling. You've said you are not coming here for advice so I won't preach any to you, only to say that you should be certain of what your wife actually thinks. Perhaps she is questioning all sorts of things about herself and her feelings.

In a way, I would be more relieved if there was a 'politically correct' consensus about asexuality, at least it would mean we were visible and acknowledged as actually existing...

I had a pretty similar experience. Only that at that time I didn't know the first thing about asexuality, and looked into sexual dysfunction as an explanation. It was a long, complicated, process to find out that I'm asexual.

TheSexualHusband, instead of making accusations, how about helping people understand asexuality? Do active visibility work, explain every detail about asexuality to every single person you ever meet, and when you're done with that, and you're sure that everybody in your surroundings has a fair chance to know if they are asexual or not, then you can start complaining.

How can we even know this? Maybe he has/is, he is not here to defend that and if you read what he says it could also imply (if that is what we are all doing) that his wife has admitted that her behaviour was deceptive during some maybe heated debates already. We will never know. Your statement sounds a tad patronising.

[timewarp]

Yeah, "don't be deceptive about your sexuality" doesn't sound patronising at all.

[Nigellaseed]

The patronising bit about helping people understand about asexuality (sorry, just getting used to posting)

[Sally]

Before I realised I was asexual, I had a relationship in which my partner really desired sex and felt as if it was her fault that I couldn't do it, as I had no other explanation (to summarise a long and uncomfortable backstory). I still feel bad about making her feel like this, to put it mildly, so I know exactly what you are feeling. You've said you are not coming here for advice so I won't preach any to you, only to say that you should be certain of what your wife actually thinks. Perhaps she is questioning all sorts of things about herself and her feelings.

In a way, I would be more relieved if there was a 'politically correct' consensus about asexuality, at least it would mean we were visible and acknowledged as actually existing...

I had a pretty similar experience. Only that at that time I didn't know the first thing about asexuality, and looked into sexual dysfunction as an explanation. It was a long, complicated, process to find out that I'm asexual.

TheSexualHusband, instead of making accusations, how about helping people understand asexuality? Do active visibility work, explain every detail about asexuality to every single person you ever meet, and when you're done with that, and you're sure that everybody in your surroundings has a fair chance to know if they are asexual or not, then you can start complaining.

How can we even know this? Maybe he has/is, he is not here to defend that and if you read what he says it could also imply (if that is what we are all doing) that his wife has admitted that her behaviour was deceptive during some maybe heated debates already. We will never know. Your statement sounds a tad patronising.

We're not implying anything. I think if his wife had admitted deception, he certainly would have told us, because it would only bolster his anger.

[Nigellaseed]

Yeah, "don't be deceptive about your sexuality" doesn't sound patronising at all.

Well, it does if we are implying that he should be more active in the cause when we don't know that he has or has not? What I am saying is we are just speculating.

[timewarp]

My question is now this. Why, if when we just met you allowed me, very enthusiastically, to jump your bones 2 to 3 times a day, let alone a week, I now suddenly find when walking into the bedroom all hard and ready to go the gates to paradise with a bold neon sign that reads (in)definitely closed for business.

[...]

The purpose of this post is to remind everyone that yes you have a right to your bodies and I will be the last to suggest you unwillingly submit to your partner. But with it comes a responsibility not to deceive others into believing they will be able to enjoy a deep lasting loving relationship with all the obligations and joys it entails.

[Nigellaseed]

My question is now this. Why, if when we just met you allowed me, very enthusiastically, to jump your bones 2 to 3 times a day, let alone a week, I now suddenly find when walking into the bedroom all hard and ready to go the gates to paradise with a bold neon sign that reads (in)definitely closed for business.

[...]

The purpose of this post is to remind everyone that yes you have a right to your bodies and I will be the last to suggest you unwillingly submit to your partner. But with it comes a responsibility not to deceive others into believing they will be able to enjoy a deep lasting loving relationship with all the obligations and joys it entails.

I can't see anything there about whether he has not done any active 'work about asexuality' and spoken to other asexuals. He says he has been on the site and read a few posts but how do we know any more than that? We do not know that he has or has not been active in the Asexual cause.

[table]

the experience of discovering that you may never be happy doing what you've been told will make you happy

I nominate this as the new dictionary definition for "Life"

[Sockstealingnome]

Telecaster, I think the reason we aces get touchy about being told we need to try it is because of the number of people who have denied the existence of asexuality without a second thought. How would you feel if you told people you were heterosexual and the majority response was, "No, you're not. You just need a good dicking." Because that's been the overarching experience for me. It wasn't an openminded suggestion made with the intention of being helpful. I was told that here were the accepted narratives I could choose from, asexuality not being one.

[Telecaster68]

Yeah, I get that. But it's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the kneejerk dismissal when someone suggests that you can't know how you'd react to something you've never tried (short of it obviously causing physical pain, of course).

[Guest]

Yeah, I get that. But it's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the kneejerk dismissal when someone suggests that you can't know how you'd react to something you've never tried (short of it obviously causing physical pain, of course).

I don't know many straight men who, upon being told they should try taking it up the arse from another guy or sucking a guys dick, before they settle for the label 'heterosexual', would say ''actually yeah you're right, I should try that. Thanks for the suggestion I'll get onto that right away before I box myself into the heterosexual label'' .. I think their knee-jerk response is most often ''Nope. I know I don't want to fuck, or be fucked by, another guy''

[Telecaster68]

Again, that's not what I was talking about.

But... if they hadn't settled on the label of heterosexual, someone suggesting they might enjoy gay sex doesn't seem outrageous at all to me, because they're clearly not sure they're straight.

[Guest]

Again, that's not what I was talking about.

But... if they hadn't settled on the label of heterosexual, someone suggesting they might enjoy gay sex doesn't seem outrageous at all to me, because they're clearly not sure they're straight.

Are you saying someone is actively exploring labels because they aren't sure they are heterosexual? Because of course in that case, suggesting they try being intimate with someone of the same gender isn't at all that outrageous and they had probably thought about that for themselves already. But if someone is saying they are definitely asexual, then suggesting they try sex before they settle on that label is the same as telling a heterosexual person they should try gay sex before settling on the label ''straight''..

There are people who identify as asexual, then have sex and realize they are sexual (as you already pointed out). But there are also people who identify as heterosexual who don't realize they are homosexual until they have had sex with someone of the same gender. That does happen of course. But if someone is very comfortable saying they are heterosexual, it's rude to suggest they should try gay sex before they settle on that label just because some heterosexual-identifying people have found out they are gay after having gay sex.. Same applies to someone who is comfortable with their asexual label. They are probably going to be dismissive or outright offended if you suggest they try having a penis shoved inside them, or shoving their penis inside someone else, or licking a vagina, before they label themselves ace.

I saw just before in another thread you said you ''don't have a homosexual bone in your body'' (ahem.. no pun intended clearly, hehe) ..I saw you said it's been suggested to you before, but have you actually had gay sex Tele? and if you have, how did you know you just didn't have it with the right guy? You should try it quite a few times at least, just to make sure you aren't really gay.. and with different guys of course because some are better at sex than others :o I'm not being dismissive of your heterosexuality and you already said you don't view such suggestions as dismissing your sexual orientation, but how do you know you really know you aren't gay, if you haven't had sex with another man? Maybe having a man doing things to you will feel a million times better than it ever has with a woman, you just won't know until you try it.

[Guest]

Homosexual people also shouldn't settle on the label ''gay'' until they have plenty of hetero sex. That's not being dismissive of their sexual orientation, but how do they know they won't love sex more with someone of a different gender, unless they actually do it? They might have hetero sex and never want to touch someone of the same gender again. No one should settle on the label homosexual unless they have had heterosexual sex. Only heterosexual-identifying people should have the luxury to be certain of their sexual orientation without having to explore other sexual options first.