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FTM, MTF and androgynes


AVEN #1 fan

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AVEN #1 fan

What's harder? Being an FTM? An MTF? Or an androgyne?

I have no clue, but as an androgyne I have to admit my life is pretty fine.

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Anthracite_Impreza

You can't make blanket statements like that.

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AVEN #1 fan

You can't make blanket statements like that.

Well I was just curious to ask, you don't have to take that into consideration.

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When I was about twenty or twenty-one, I went through a phase of wearing T-shirts from the juniors section of the women's department paired with everything else men's. It was because those T-shirts had more awesome graphics and slogans that the men's ones never had. But the more negative stares I received in public, the redder my face was, and the higher the anxiety of being the center of attention, and I reduced the frequency of wearing those T-shirts. When that didn't work, I stopped completely, but I still miss it at times. Of course, women can wear men's T-shirts, and no one will ever seem to bat an eye about that. Figures.

I'd say it just depends on where you live, what kind of society dominates your city, and how you personally feel about it. There really is no one way. But in certain parts of the Midwest, it can get you jumped or even killed.

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It's different. Please. No "Who has it worse?" . It doesn't lead anywhere. Just divides the community in a destructive way. There are upsides and downsides to everything. Depends which downsides you consider easier or harder. "Hard" is a relative concept.

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AVEN #1 fan

It's different. Please. No "Who has it worse?" . It doesn't lead anywhere. Just divides the community in a destructive way. There are upsides and downsides to everything. Depends which downsides you consider easier or harder. "Hard" is a relative concept.

I often hear MTFs have it harder, well idk what they mean by "harder", that's why I'm asking.

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Just based on anecdote, MtFs generally get the most discrimination and violence against them.. Doesn't make being FtM (or an otherwise male identified female) any easier...

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AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks. Rigid gender roles are nonsensically inconsistent. I will never understand it.

But I digress. "Harder" is pretty subjective.

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It does depend, going from the FAAB side, I had and have the bad luck to gather all sorts of shit, negative (disgusted) stares being the easy part. So it all depends on all sorts of random environmental and space-time variables.

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I think MAAB raceive more physical violence while FAAB more psychological bullying. On one hand women can get away with more, on the other it's extremely difficult to claim a transgender identity as a female assinged person, because everything is permitted and you must be making it up and are deluded not to identify with your sex.

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AVEN #1 fan

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

well masculine women are often seen as "powerful" and "independent" women, while feminine men are usually seen as "weak" and a "shame", androgynous people are also seen as "weird" and "sick." that doesn't only apply for Trans and non-binary people, it applies for everyone.

Feminism may be one of the causes of that view over masculine women, like we often hear "a woman can do anything a man can." Also women are many times forced into taking male roles.

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AVEN #1 fan

Well, being a trans woman is definitely harder than being a trans man, all else kept the same (i.e. if both are straight, white, dyadic, abled, rich, Christian, and live in a western country), because of transmisogyny and sexism.

But no, being binary trans is not harder than being nonbinary and being nonbinary is not harder than being binary trans.

Non-transitioning nonbinary people may be able to be perceived as cis sometimes, but have their gender taken less seriously and be denied trans resources, while binary trans people can't "pass" as their assigned sex as easily, are more likely to be dysphoric, and are more likely to experience violence - but might have their gender taken more seriously and are less likely to be denied trans resources. Nonbinary people are invisible, while binary trans people are hypervisible. Neither one is a privilege.

And, of course, it's not always so clean cut. There are nonbinary people who transition, binary trans people who don't, and people's experiences are also going to vary based on their gender expression.

Non-transitioning binary Transgender people can be viewed as how they want to be viewed, not everybody needs medical procedures to "pass."
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AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

Except that there are plenty of transphobic people who really don't favor MTF or FTM when it comes to which they choose to discriminate against more. Some actually don't care and simply hate them all. That was my (unspecified) point. Not every transphobic person is the same. Also, I apologize for how I worded my post overall. I didn't mean to compare trans men to women because I know they're not. I'm not stupid. I never said or believed they were. I was really referring to androgyny among non-transgender people, which I should have specified. I'm sorry I offended you or anyone else simply because I forgot to use a term such as some or many when referring to women, which I usually do to avoid generalizations but failed to do so in my previous post. And no, I don't think masculine women are more privileged over feminine men. I don't know where you got that from, but that is far from the truth. Again, I clearly misphrased my post. This is just a misunderstanding. I don't want any issues here at the forum, so again, my apologies.

This is why I never claim to know everything because I, too, am learning about all this. It's complicated, but it can be learned.

Edit: Ah, I can see why you thought that. I started talking about transgender people and then switched to non-transgender androgyny without stating so. That was seriously not cool on my part, and I sincerely apologize for that.

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Androdynamic: Okay, well, I apologize for that. As I mentioned, I'm still learning more about this, so I may make mistakes when conversing. I'll be sure to post more properly to avoid offending anyone.

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AVEN #1 fan

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

well masculine women are often seen as "powerful" and "independent" women, while feminine men are usually seen as "weak" and a "shame", androgynous people are also seen as "weird" and "sick." that doesn't only apply for Trans and non-binary people, it applies for everyone.

Feminism may be one of the causes of that view over masculine women, like we often hear "a woman can do anything a man can." Also women are many times forced into taking male roles.

Honey. Sweetie. I actually AM a nonbinary butch lesbian and I don't appreciate you telling me about my experiences.

Because I am a masculine woman:

1. I am sexually harassed and bullied on a daily basis

2. I am simultaneously desexualized and hypersexualized by the media and by butchphobic cultural norms

3. I am likely to be discriminated against for my gender expression, and the way it intersects with my sexuality and nonbinary gender identity, which disadvantages me in a job market that upholds heteronormativity and still practices discrimination, in effect privileging cis straight gender conforming white men and putting me and all other masculine LGBT women in a vulnerable position

4. I am likely to be distrusted and seen as predatory by other women

5. I am spoken over by gender conforming straight trans men who think our experiences are the same, despite the multiple privileges (gender conforming privilege, straight privilege, and male privilege) they have over me, just because we both happen to be masculine, transgender, assigned female at birth, and exclusively attracted to women

6. I am seen as an object of ridicule virtually every day of my life

7. I have been followed home

8. I have been thrown under the bus by other feminists and other sapphic women - after all, I'm one of THOSE feminists. The hairy, fat, loud, butch lesbian. Not the sweet, quiet, NORMAL woman who does everything possible to make feminism appear nonthreatening to men.

You are not a masculine woman. Don't tell me what it's like to be one.

Speaking of my hairiness and fatness, and the fact that both are caused partially by my intersex variation, I need to ask: why exactly do you, a dyadic person, still identify as intergender despite being told multiple times by both myself and ChillaKilla, two intersex nonbinary people, that your actions are appropriative and that intergender is an identity exclusive to intersex people?

Calling yourself a "dyadic intergender" isn't much better than saying you're "transitioning to intersex".

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

Except that there are plenty of transphobic people who really don't favor MTF or FTM when it comes to which they choose to discriminate against more. Some actually don't care and simply hate them all. That was my (unspecified) point. Not every transphobic person is the same. Also, I apologize for how I worded my post overall. I didn't mean to compare trans men to women because I know they're not. I'm not stupid. I never said or believed they were. I was really referring to androgyny among non-transgender people, which I should have specified. I'm sorry I offended you or anyone else simply because I forgot to use a term such as some or many when referring to women, which I usually do to avoid generalizations but failed to do so in my previous post. And no, I don't think masculine women are more privileged over feminine men. I don't know where you got that from, but that is far from the truth. Again, I clearly misphrased my post. This is just a misunderstanding. I don't want any issues here at the forum, so again, my apologies.

This is why I never claim to know everything because I, too, am learning about all this. It's complicated, but it can be learned.

Edit: Ah, I can see why you thought that. I started talking about transgender people and then switched to non-transgender androgyny without stating so. That was seriously not cool on my part, and I sincerely apologize for that.

That's still comparing trans women to GNC cis men and trans men to GNC cis women.
I never told you "how to be" but I see how being a masculine woman is problematic in the environment you live, but I guess you misunderstood my point, I said it's a lie, those views people have are all made up points of view, i never said being a masculine woman was great either.
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You may as well ask 'is it harder to be French or German?' The question doesn't make sense because it doesn't have any parameters. Is what harder? And even if you specify what, you then have to ask for whom? Something being 'hard' depends on the individual, from their country right down to their psychological makeup, so it's not possible to generalise across massive groups and say one has it harder than the other.

And honestly, I have to ask why is it important? Trans and non-binary rights, quality and care are so poor across the globe right now, it makes no sense whatsoever to start infighting about who has it worse. We all face significant barriers and problems, and we all need to fight to erase them.

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AVEN #1 fan

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

well masculine women are often seen as "powerful" and "independent" women, while feminine men are usually seen as "weak" and a "shame", androgynous people are also seen as "weird" and "sick." that doesn't only apply for Trans and non-binary people, it applies for everyone.

Feminism may be one of the causes of that view over masculine women, like we often hear "a woman can do anything a man can." Also women are many times forced into taking male roles.

Honey. Sweetie. I actually AM a nonbinary butch lesbian and I don't appreciate you telling me about my experiences.

Because I am a masculine woman:

1. I am sexually harassed and bullied on a daily basis

2. I am simultaneously desexualized and hypersexualized by the media and by butchphobic cultural norms

3. I am likely to be discriminated against for my gender expression, and the way it intersects with my sexuality and nonbinary gender identity, which disadvantages me in a job market that upholds heteronormativity and still practices discrimination, in effect privileging cis straight gender conforming white men and putting me and all other masculine LGBT women in a vulnerable position

4. I am likely to be distrusted and seen as predatory by other women

5. I am spoken over by gender conforming straight trans men who think our experiences are the same, despite the multiple privileges (gender conforming privilege, straight privilege, and male privilege) they have over me, just because we both happen to be masculine, transgender, assigned female at birth, and exclusively attracted to women

6. I am seen as an object of ridicule virtually every day of my life

7. I have been followed home

8. I have been thrown under the bus by other feminists and other sapphic women - after all, I'm one of THOSE feminists. The hairy, fat, loud, butch lesbian. Not the sweet, quiet, NORMAL woman who does everything possible to make feminism appear nonthreatening to men.

You are not a masculine woman. Don't tell me what it's like to be one.

Speaking of my hairiness and fatness, and the fact that both are caused partially by my intersex variation, I need to ask: why exactly do you, a dyadic person, still identify as intergender despite being told multiple times by both myself and ChillaKilla, two intersex nonbinary people, that your actions are appropriative and that intergender is an identity exclusive to intersex people?

Calling yourself a "dyadic intergender" isn't much better than saying you're "transitioning to intersex".

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

Except that there are plenty of transphobic people who really don't favor MTF or FTM when it comes to which they choose to discriminate against more. Some actually don't care and simply hate them all. That was my (unspecified) point. Not every transphobic person is the same. Also, I apologize for how I worded my post overall. I didn't mean to compare trans men to women because I know they're not. I'm not stupid. I never said or believed they were. I was really referring to androgyny among non-transgender people, which I should have specified. I'm sorry I offended you or anyone else simply because I forgot to use a term such as some or many when referring to women, which I usually do to avoid generalizations but failed to do so in my previous post. And no, I don't think masculine women are more privileged over feminine men. I don't know where you got that from, but that is far from the truth. Again, I clearly misphrased my post. This is just a misunderstanding. I don't want any issues here at the forum, so again, my apologies.

This is why I never claim to know everything because I, too, am learning about all this. It's complicated, but it can be learned.

Edit: Ah, I can see why you thought that. I started talking about transgender people and then switched to non-transgender androgyny without stating so. That was seriously not cool on my part, and I sincerely apologize for that.

That's still comparing trans women to GNC cis men and trans men to GNC cis women.
I never told you "how to be" but I see how being a masculine woman is problematic in the environment you live, but I guess you misunderstood my point, I said it's a lie, those views people have are all made up points of view, i never said being a masculine woman was great either.
"However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks."

You didn't say masculine women have it easy? REALLY? We're dealing with all this, plus all other forms of misogyny that women deal with like slut shaming, cis white men trying to regulate our bodies, and gendered wage gaps, and even though most GNC women are nonbinary and/or sapphic, YOU seem to think we have it easier because men feel pressure to be masculine and face violence if they don't - as if that isn't a common struggle among all GNC people.

You did say, or at least heavily imply, that GNC women have it easier than GNC men, you did make assumptions about our experiences and you did pretend that you, despite not being a woman, knew more than an actual GNC woman would about GNC women's struggles.

And you STILL haven't addressed your appropriation of intersex culture, which I've called you out on multiple times and will continue to call you out on until you stop identifying as intergender. You aren't intergender and never will be, stop calling yourself that.

OK I understand your opinion is based on your experiences, and we can't compare experiences or opinions, there's no rights or wrongs in that kind of topic.

I'm sorry if i offended you or implicated something awful with my arguments, I don't want to pull down any individual with this discussion, after all we all are non-gender-conforming persons, we share some aspects of our lives.

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AVEN #1 fan

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

well masculine women are often seen as "powerful" and "independent" women, while feminine men are usually seen as "weak" and a "shame", androgynous people are also seen as "weird" and "sick." that doesn't only apply for Trans and non-binary people, it applies for everyone.

Feminism may be one of the causes of that view over masculine women, like we often hear "a woman can do anything a man can." Also women are many times forced into taking male roles.

Honey. Sweetie. I actually AM a nonbinary butch lesbian and I don't appreciate you telling me about my experiences.

Because I am a masculine woman:

1. I am sexually harassed and bullied on a daily basis

2. I am simultaneously desexualized and hypersexualized by the media and by butchphobic cultural norms

3. I am likely to be discriminated against for my gender expression, and the way it intersects with my sexuality and nonbinary gender identity, which disadvantages me in a job market that upholds heteronormativity and still practices discrimination, in effect privileging cis straight gender conforming white men and putting me and all other masculine LGBT women in a vulnerable position

4. I am likely to be distrusted and seen as predatory by other women

5. I am spoken over by gender conforming straight trans men who think our experiences are the same, despite the multiple privileges (gender conforming privilege, straight privilege, and male privilege) they have over me, just because we both happen to be masculine, transgender, assigned female at birth, and exclusively attracted to women

6. I am seen as an object of ridicule virtually every day of my life

7. I have been followed home

8. I have been thrown under the bus by other feminists and other sapphic women - after all, I'm one of THOSE feminists. The hairy, fat, loud, butch lesbian. Not the sweet, quiet, NORMAL woman who does everything possible to make feminism appear nonthreatening to men.

You are not a masculine woman. Don't tell me what it's like to be one.

Speaking of my hairiness and fatness, and the fact that both are caused partially by my intersex variation, I need to ask: why exactly do you, a dyadic person, still identify as intergender despite being told multiple times by both myself and ChillaKilla, two intersex nonbinary people, that your actions are appropriative and that intergender is an identity exclusive to intersex people?

Calling yourself a "dyadic intergender" isn't much better than saying you're "transitioning to intersex".

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

Except that there are plenty of transphobic people who really don't favor MTF or FTM when it comes to which they choose to discriminate against more. Some actually don't care and simply hate them all. That was my (unspecified) point. Not every transphobic person is the same. Also, I apologize for how I worded my post overall. I didn't mean to compare trans men to women because I know they're not. I'm not stupid. I never said or believed they were. I was really referring to androgyny among non-transgender people, which I should have specified. I'm sorry I offended you or anyone else simply because I forgot to use a term such as some or many when referring to women, which I usually do to avoid generalizations but failed to do so in my previous post. And no, I don't think masculine women are more privileged over feminine men. I don't know where you got that from, but that is far from the truth. Again, I clearly misphrased my post. This is just a misunderstanding. I don't want any issues here at the forum, so again, my apologies.

This is why I never claim to know everything because I, too, am learning about all this. It's complicated, but it can be learned.

Edit: Ah, I can see why you thought that. I started talking about transgender people and then switched to non-transgender androgyny without stating so. That was seriously not cool on my part, and I sincerely apologize for that.

That's still comparing trans women to GNC cis men and trans men to GNC cis women.
I never told you "how to be" but I see how being a masculine woman is problematic in the environment you live, but I guess you misunderstood my point, I said it's a lie, those views people have are all made up points of view, i never said being a masculine woman was great either.
"However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks."

You didn't say masculine women have it easy? REALLY? We're dealing with all this, plus all other forms of misogyny that women deal with like slut shaming, cis white men trying to regulate our bodies, and gendered wage gaps, and even though most GNC women are nonbinary and/or sapphic, YOU seem to think we have it easier because men feel pressure to be masculine and face violence if they don't - as if that isn't a common struggle among all GNC people.

You did say, or at least heavily imply, that GNC women have it easier than GNC men, you did make assumptions about our experiences and you did pretend that you, despite not being a woman, knew more than an actual GNC woman would about GNC women's struggles.

And you STILL haven't addressed your appropriation of intersex culture, which I've called you out on multiple times and will continue to call you out on until you stop identifying as intergender. You aren't intergender and never will be, stop calling yourself that.

OK I understand your opinion is based on your experiences, and we can't compare experiences or opinions, there's no rights or wrongs in that kind of topic.

I'm sorry if i offended you or implicated something awful with my arguments, I don't want to pull down any individual with this discussion, after all we all are non-gender-conforming persons, we share some aspects of our lives.

"I'm sorry if I offended you" No sweetie, that's not how you apologize after being called out.

And are you going to address your appropriation of intersex culture or just continue to conveniently ignore it if it means you get to use this cool edgy nonbinary identity that's specific to intersex people?

Because, sweetie, you can't just act butchphobic and misogynistic as hell, appropriate intersex culture, and then be like "it's okay! We're all gender nonconforming!" when another nonbinary person tells you that you've done something to marginalize two groups - GNC women and intersex people - that they're part of and you're not.

OK, you don't have to repeat that, I'm not trying to join the intersex nor the butch community, but can we please stop talking about my gender, like I can show you a few dictionary definitions for intergender and it's not an intersex exclusive term, there are intersex exclusive terms, but intergender is not one of them. Anyone is free to identify as whatever they want if they respect others, I think the intersex community is too busy to focus on my gender or feel bothered about it bc I'm not even related to them in any way. Not even my gender is connected to them. Well, if I'm bothering you, you should leave, bc I'm literally doing nothing and soon I'll just stop listening to what you have to say. You can keep my apologies though, and I have my right to have my opinion as much as you do, If you don't agree with me, you can just take my apologies and leave, bc I don't want to argue with you over you and me.
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AVEN #1 fan

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

well masculine women are often seen as "powerful" and "independent" women, while feminine men are usually seen as "weak" and a "shame", androgynous people are also seen as "weird" and "sick." that doesn't only apply for Trans and non-binary people, it applies for everyone.

Feminism may be one of the causes of that view over masculine women, like we often hear "a woman can do anything a man can." Also women are many times forced into taking male roles.

Honey. Sweetie. I actually AM a nonbinary butch lesbian and I don't appreciate you telling me about my experiences.

Because I am a masculine woman:

1. I am sexually harassed and bullied on a daily basis

2. I am simultaneously desexualized and hypersexualized by the media and by butchphobic cultural norms

3. I am likely to be discriminated against for my gender expression, and the way it intersects with my sexuality and nonbinary gender identity, which disadvantages me in a job market that upholds heteronormativity and still practices discrimination, in effect privileging cis straight gender conforming white men and putting me and all other masculine LGBT women in a vulnerable position

4. I am likely to be distrusted and seen as predatory by other women

5. I am spoken over by gender conforming straight trans men who think our experiences are the same, despite the multiple privileges (gender conforming privilege, straight privilege, and male privilege) they have over me, just because we both happen to be masculine, transgender, assigned female at birth, and exclusively attracted to women

6. I am seen as an object of ridicule virtually every day of my life

7. I have been followed home

8. I have been thrown under the bus by other feminists and other sapphic women - after all, I'm one of THOSE feminists. The hairy, fat, loud, butch lesbian. Not the sweet, quiet, NORMAL woman who does everything possible to make feminism appear nonthreatening to men.

You are not a masculine woman. Don't tell me what it's like to be one.

Speaking of my hairiness and fatness, and the fact that both are caused partially by my intersex variation, I need to ask: why exactly do you, a dyadic person, still identify as intergender despite being told multiple times by both myself and ChillaKilla, two intersex nonbinary people, that your actions are appropriative and that intergender is an identity exclusive to intersex people?

Calling yourself a "dyadic intergender" isn't much better than saying you're "transitioning to intersex".

AVEN #1 fan: I wouldn't say MTFs have it harder than FTMs only because transgender is still transgender, and transphobia doesn't typically discriminate just one or the other. However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks.

1. Transphobia is still transphobia, but that doesn't change the fact that men - including trans men - don't experience misogyny. Women, including trans women, do.

2. Don't compare trans men to women or trans women to men.

3. It sounds like you think masculine women are privileged over feminine men. We're not. Masculine women don't benefit from femmephobia or misogyny. Ever.

Except that there are plenty of transphobic people who really don't favor MTF or FTM when it comes to which they choose to discriminate against more. Some actually don't care and simply hate them all. That was my (unspecified) point. Not every transphobic person is the same. Also, I apologize for how I worded my post overall. I didn't mean to compare trans men to women because I know they're not. I'm not stupid. I never said or believed they were. I was really referring to androgyny among non-transgender people, which I should have specified. I'm sorry I offended you or anyone else simply because I forgot to use a term such as some or many when referring to women, which I usually do to avoid generalizations but failed to do so in my previous post. And no, I don't think masculine women are more privileged over feminine men. I don't know where you got that from, but that is far from the truth. Again, I clearly misphrased my post. This is just a misunderstanding. I don't want any issues here at the forum, so again, my apologies.

This is why I never claim to know everything because I, too, am learning about all this. It's complicated, but it can be learned.

Edit: Ah, I can see why you thought that. I started talking about transgender people and then switched to non-transgender androgyny without stating so. That was seriously not cool on my part, and I sincerely apologize for that.

That's still comparing trans women to GNC cis men and trans men to GNC cis women.
I never told you "how to be" but I see how being a masculine woman is problematic in the environment you live, but I guess you misunderstood my point, I said it's a lie, those views people have are all made up points of view, i never said being a masculine woman was great either.
"However, in certain societies, it's clear that women can get away with certain men's wear, such as T-shirts, gym shorts, sneakers, work boots, and PJs, whereas men can't exactly wear women's lingerie without being classified as freaks."

You didn't say masculine women have it easy? REALLY? We're dealing with all this, plus all other forms of misogyny that women deal with like slut shaming, cis white men trying to regulate our bodies, and gendered wage gaps, and even though most GNC women are nonbinary and/or sapphic, YOU seem to think we have it easier because men feel pressure to be masculine and face violence if they don't - as if that isn't a common struggle among all GNC people.

You did say, or at least heavily imply, that GNC women have it easier than GNC men, you did make assumptions about our experiences and you did pretend that you, despite not being a woman, knew more than an actual GNC woman would about GNC women's struggles.

And you STILL haven't addressed your appropriation of intersex culture, which I've called you out on multiple times and will continue to call you out on until you stop identifying as intergender. You aren't intergender and never will be, stop calling yourself that.

OK I understand your opinion is based on your experiences, and we can't compare experiences or opinions, there's no rights or wrongs in that kind of topic.

I'm sorry if i offended you or implicated something awful with my arguments, I don't want to pull down any individual with this discussion, after all we all are non-gender-conforming persons, we share some aspects of our lives.

"I'm sorry if I offended you" No sweetie, that's not how you apologize after being called out.

And are you going to address your appropriation of intersex culture or just continue to conveniently ignore it if it means you get to use this cool edgy nonbinary identity that's specific to intersex people?

Because, sweetie, you can't just act butchphobic and misogynistic as hell, appropriate intersex culture, and then be like "it's okay! We're all gender nonconforming!" when another nonbinary person tells you that you've done something to marginalize two groups - GNC women and intersex people - that they're part of and you're not.

OK, you don't have to repeat that, I'm not trying to join the intersex nor the butch community, but can we please stop talking about my gender, like I can show you a few dictionary definitions for intergender and it's not an intersex exclusive term, there are intersex exclusive terms, but intergender is not one of them. Anyone is free to identify as whatever they want if they respect others, I think the intersex community is too busy to focus on my gender or feel bothered about it bc I'm not even related to them in any way. Not even my gender is connected to them. Well, if I'm bothering you, you should leave, bc I'm literally doing nothing and soon I'll just stop listening to what you have to say. You can keep my apologies though, and I have my right to have my opinion as much as you do, If you don't agree with me, you can just take my apologies and leave, bc I don't want to argue with you over you and me.
Wow your apology sucks. Your refusal to own up to your dyadic privilege, your appropriation of intersex culture, and your little tantrum here sucks.

And just so you know, a lot of people saying that intergender isn't an intersex only identity are probably dyadic, because I've only ever seen intersex people (usually intersex trans people) say that it's only for intersex people. More importantly, I, an intersex nonbinary person, am telling you right now that it's not for dyadic people and that means it's time for you to shut up and listen, not flex your debate skills. Yeah, you can have an opinion, but intergender identity is an intersex issue and when it comes to intersex issues, your opinion doesn't mean shit :)

Thanks for your opinion, but since my opinion doesn't mean nothing, yours doesn't as well, we are talking about my identity.

Anyway thx for wasting my time, but I feel like there's nothing I can take in consideration from you anymore, I'm too old for this, srly if you want to argue you are in the wrong place, I'm def not found down for this.

This shall be my last reply on your comments, bye. Have a nice day, if possible.

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Overall, probably mtf, but both are hard and depend on the surroundings and people in their lives. My family is not supportive, I lost a lot of friends, I was mocked and hurt, when I come out, my family will disown me (don't even try to say they won't, you don't know them or how badly they react), I've ruined relationships and felt abuse. If I were somewhere more supportive, I would not have. My mtf friend went through all the same because she also had no support from family and from very few friends. We've both experienced pain and abuse and heartache that made us question whether we were ever worth anything. It didn't matter that I'm ftm and she's mtf, all that mattered was that we were seen as abominations/liars/confused/worthless for being nothing other than ourselves.

If I had a supportive family and she did not, my life probably would have been easier. If she was accepted and not mocked, her life probably would have been easier. But neither of those things are true, so we both had it just as rough.

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Calligraphette_Coe

:::sighs:::: Trying to figure out whom has had it the worst sometimes seems like being convicted of a crime you didn't commit and offered your choice of methods of execution-- the results are the same and just as unjust. I think you have to keep your eye on the injustice and like the lyrics from the Battle Hymn of the Republic, we all have lend ourselves to the cause of 'trampling out the vintage where the Grapes of Wrath are stored.'

Only then can we *all* be free. Only then, will we need never keep scores against which to cast lots ever again!

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ChillaKilla

FOR THE LAST TIME DYADIC PEOPLE CANNOT BE INTERSEX IT IS A MEDICAL CONDITION YOU ARE BORN WITH

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FOR THE LAST TIME DYADIC PEOPLE CANNOT BE INTERSEX IT IS A MEDICAL CONDITION YOU ARE BORN WITH

Thank you for pointing this out because I needed to learn this. Post liked. :)

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Okay, I'm going to teach you some things I learned in sociology class - interactionist and conflict perspective.

A trans man's life may be harder because of his family's transphobia (interactionist perspective) and he may lose friends or have a hard time finding partners (and all of that also harms trans women), but because of harmful cultural norms about trans women - the man in the dress trope, stereotypes about trans women being threatening, futa and sissy genres in porn, drag - as well as harmful messages thrown at girls and women in the media, from our government, etc., on a systemic level, trans women's lives are overall harder than trans men's (conflict perspective).

And while both trans men and trans women are denied refuge in safe spaces for their correct gender, trans men are generally welcome in women's spaces while trans women's safety is at risk in both men's AND women's.

Think about who experiences the most violence in the trans community - trans women, especially black and Latina trans women. That's conflict perspective.

Everyone who doesn't identify strictly with the sex assigned to them at birth is harmed by transphobia, and nobody's saying trans men experience "less" transphobia than trans women. It's not a contest, but the fact remains that trans women experience misogyny, and that affects their experience of transphobia. There's no equivalent experience for trans men.

I've been physically attacked in the women's bathroom, was told to stop attending my gym classes once they found out I was intending to transition, and have been assaulted in clubs by women trying to find out 'what you're supposed to be.' I have been told to my face by other (female) authors within my genre that transmen don't belong in romance, because it's for women, and that I need to stop encroaching on their territory. Please, tell me more about trans men being welcome in women's spaces.

And misogyny doesn't apply to trans men? Er, yes, it does. Not only is there an enormous hyper-masculinity pressure around trans men, but we don't magically pop from being women to men and any misogyny we once vanished disappears overnight. Trans men all start off as appearing to be female, and in many cultures, that means they will never, ever get to even explore that because they'll be married off, as females, before they're even old enough to have children, and for the rest of their lives be completely and utterly oppressed. Never transitioned, still transgender. In the same culture, a trans woman may at least have control of their own home and be able to avoid some of the typical 'male' duties like fathering children, or have a private place in their own home to wear what they want, or the simple ability through privacy and their rights as a 'man' in their society to keep a secret.

Even in the western world, 'trans men don't experience misogyny' is bollocks. As someone who had no idea he was a man until he was 21 years old, I can say with certainty that I feel a lot more constrained and a lot more social pressure to be one thing and one thing only as a man than I ever did as a woman. As a woman, I felt perfectly able to be and do whatever I wanted to be or do, and to hell with anyone who tried to tell me otherwise. And I was right. But now? I feel under a crippling amount of pressure to be this thing, this one thing, I can't do these things or like these things, because you're not a man if you do that. That's a form of misogyny, because men don't do those things because women do those things, and men should not do womenly things. Misogyny. But I'm a trans man, so according to you, I don't actually experience this.

This is what I'm talking about. Sociology classes are all very nice, but the fact is, experience differs from culture to culture, place to place, and person to person. Different cultures have vastly different outcomes, and even if you walk into the same cultural backdrop, you then walk into the fact that different individuals will have different experiences.

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zabz: Thank you for your insightful post, and I'm sorry you had to experience all that. As a male mostly-romance writer myself, I have yet to experience that exact thing, but it could very well happen, since I'm not that exposed yet and only came up with my pen name last August. I have an editor friend who is a cisgender woman, and she tells me it's similar with sci-fi, only reverse, because that genre is dominated by men, much like romance is by women. It's unfortunate that people have to act this way over a genre. It's petty, really. I imagine I'd be okay in the M/M romance world, despite even that being dominated by female authors, according to articles and blogs I've read, but I'm sure there are still the kinds of authors you described in that world, so I'm still not immune. But I don't know too much about the politics of all this, so I'll stop while I can. Your bathroom and club experiences are foreign to me, so thank you for sharing that. It really helps me open my eyes on how bad it can be with trans men, because I'm not exposed to them as much as I have been to trans women, not that I didn't already guessed it'd be tough, but I just wasn't sure to what extent. I can only speak from my experience as an effeminate man who isn't even sure whether he's cisgender or transgender (or neither?).

Anyway, excellent post. :)

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Everyone who doesn't identify strictly with the sex assigned to them at birth is harmed by transphobia, and nobody's saying trans men experience "less" transphobia than trans women. It's not a contest, but the fact remains that trans women experience misogyny, and that affects their experience of transphobia. There's no equivalent experience for trans men.

I've been physically attacked in the women's bathroom, was told to stop attending my gym classes once they found out I was intending to transition, and have been assaulted in clubs by women trying to find out 'what you're supposed to be.' I have been told to my face by other (female) authors within my genre that transmen don't belong in romance, because it's for women, and that I need to stop encroaching on their territory. Please, tell me more about trans men being welcome in women's spaces.

And misogyny doesn't apply to trans men? Er, yes, it does. Not only is there an enormous hyper-masculinity pressure around trans men, but we don't magically pop from being women to men and any misogyny we once vanished disappears overnight. Trans men all start off as appearing to be female, and in many cultures, that means they will never, ever get to even explore that because they'll be married off, as females, before they're even old enough to have children, and for the rest of their lives be completely and utterly oppressed. Never transitioned, still transgender. In the same culture, a trans woman may at least have control of their own home and be able to avoid some of the typical 'male' duties like fathering children, or have a private place in their own home to wear what they want, or the simple ability through privacy and their rights as a 'man' in their society to keep a secret.

Even in the western world, 'trans men don't experience misogyny' is bollocks. As someone who had no idea he was a man until he was 21 years old, I can say with certainty that I feel a lot more constrained and a lot more social pressure to be one thing and one thing only as a man than I ever did as a woman. As a woman, I felt perfectly able to be and do whatever I wanted to be or do, and to hell with anyone who tried to tell me otherwise. And I was right. But now? I feel under a crippling amount of pressure to be this thing, this one thing, I can't do these things or like these things, because you're not a man if you do that. That's a form of misogyny, because men don't do those things because women do those things, and men should not do womenly things. Misogyny. But I'm a trans man, so according to you, I don't actually experience this.

This is what I'm talking about. Sociology classes are all very nice, but the fact is, experience differs from culture to culture, place to place, and person to person. Different cultures have vastly different outcomes, and even if you walk into the same cultural backdrop, you then walk into the fact that different individuals will have different experiences.

So...you experienced discrimination because of what people THOUGHT you were, not how you actually identified. Misdirected misogyny and toxic masculinity. Misogyny is hatred, stigma, oppression, violence, and prejudice against women, which you are not.

And if you're not a woman, yes you should be asked to stop attending WOMEN'S gym classes. That's a space for WOMEN. Women are allowed to have spaces that are specifically for women and to ask men to leave those spaces. Including trans men.

Any time you, a man, are in a woman-only space and your presence is "justified" by you being trans, that's one less spot in that space for trans women. That's one more trans woman alienated and ostracized because she isn't welcome in spaces where she rightfully belongs and you do not, but you're there anyway.

Also most of the transphobia you experienced could also be applied to trans and/or nonbinary women, and can be attributed to transphobia and cissexism, not misogyny.

Like as a nonbinary woman I really don't need you explaining the intersections between transphobia and misogyny to me. Considering, you know, that I actually experience both.

This sounds like an argument I have had many times before: Is privilege, and conversely, oppression, based on how you identify/how you feel, or is it based on how the world around you perceives you? I used to be a staunch believer in the former, and then I had some things explained to me by people who believe the latter, and I think it makes sense.

I'll use myself as an example: I'm MAAB, but non-binary, and trying to transition to a more feminine place. By that logic, I should be experiencing transphobia and misogyny, just like you, but I had it explained to me that most of what I am experiencing is cissexism and transphobia, but not quite the same amounts of misogyny as someone who is more consistently read female. I've only been catcalled three times, been sexually harassed a handful of times (exclusively by cis women, I may add), and have never been threatened with my life for spurning anyone's advances. I do not have a vagina or a uterus, so conservative politicians do not actively police my body or my (a)sexual choices, and while I have been prude-shamed, have never been slut-shamed. While I have severe anxiety over how I am perceived in relation to rape culture, I am worried about being seen as the predator, rather than having actual experiences of being the victim. I do not have to worry about people not taking me seriously due to my voice, because my voice is quite low, and my masculine-of-center dress clothes provide enough comfort and professionalism where I do not have to worry about not meeting dress codes at work or at school. I don't get told to "smile more" at my customer service job, or in my life as a performer. I recognize that, despite not identifying as a man, I have many of the traditional facets of male privilege. While I am trying to transition away from a place of full-on masculinity, and allow for more flexibility in my presentation so that I can get read female when I want and male when I want, I do not have the struggles that most trans women (or even most cis women) do. Now, this does not give anyone the right to take my experiences separately from my identity, and misgender me as a man, because that has happened, and that is straight-up cissexism that I will not stand for, but it does stand that my experiences with misogyny, despite identifying as something vaguely feminine, are minimal at best.

I'll use another example, just to be hypothetical: A cis male-identifed cross-dresser walks down the street in a blouse, skirt, and high heels, but with a full beard. He identifies as a cis man, but that is not going to stop him from attracting transphobic vitriol. It's not like he can say "It's okay! I'm actually a cis man!" and people will magically stop and leave him alone. Conversely, a trans woman who has not taken any steps towards transitioning (whether through being closeted, or not yet figuring out her true gender), still uses a male name and pronouns, and wears male-typical clothing walks down the street, and people are going to be way less likely to say or do anything than in the case of the cis guy in the skirt.

TL;DR: Either privilege is based on how you identify, or how the world perceives you. It doesn't work both ways.

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nerdperson777

I don't believe there to be a clear cut answer to the question. Everyone has their pros and cons. I feel like this is turning into one of those arguments of what's better or who has it harder. DFAB people can pass as another gender easier but have more complicated options for surgery. And for DMABs, the other way around. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages.

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