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#Trans + non-binary problems


Neko-tama

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Dodecahedron314

Can we mention annoying things other genderqueer people have said? I've been fortunate enough to have all my cis friends be respectful of my (and our other nonbinary friend's) pronouns, and the only annoying thing I've heard came from another genderqueer person <_<

I frequent this pet site that's pretty small. There's only about 2500 registered users, and there's maybe 30 or so regulars, most of which interact in the forum and/or the site skype group. While you can't get to know everyone incredibly well, you definitely get pretty familiar with most of the users after you've been there a while. The one user there, who doesn't identify as a gender (but uses he/him and she/her pronouns), is kinda rude to people who use they/them. Like she just acts like she's better than people who use they/them because, if you want to split hairs, they/them is technically used when referencing multiple people, and not just a singular person. She doesn't view it as a problem though, and chalks up her unwillingness to use they/them as a side effect of her being a writer. We don't usually hang around the same part of the forum, but it still kinda bugs me that there's a high likelihood I'll have to interact with someone at some point that, despite viewing our genders similarly, probably won't use my pronouns, or will probably think less of me because of my pronouns. I think one or two other (but less active) users on the site use they/them too so :/ It hasn't caused any problems, but seeing someone so proud of it just rubs me the wrong way, especially since I have other friends that also write in their free time, and none of them make a big deal of the whole they/them thing

Writer who uses they/them here, no offense but this person is full of BS.

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There are sooooo many awful things in the early episodes of Catfish. The presenters are no better than the participants!

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butterflydreams

Argh, I'm still the youngest...

On topic: things I've heard on AVEN alone-

"Trans women are not real women"

"Gender theory isn't backed by science"

"God made two genders for a reason"

Ewww. Come on, AVEN, pull it together.

I have to say, I've been poking around on reddit a lot lately. Some channels have people with some surprisingly level-headed opinions about trans people. Nevertheless, so much of it feels tainted. Like because I have this good opinion, I should get a pass on this other shitty one.

A lot of the lousy opinions come on the threads about dating trans people, specifically trans women. Of course no one has to date anyone, but couldn't you just leave it at that? I don't really care if you don't want to date me because you hate Polacks for some reason. But I don't need to hear that part. I can't change my heritage any more than I can change my gender. Going into these gross descriptions of trans people's downstairs...so disheartening. Made me feel ashamed of being me.

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Can we mention annoying things other genderqueer people have said? I've been fortunate enough to have all my cis friends be respectful of my (and our other nonbinary friend's) pronouns, and the only annoying thing I've heard came from another genderqueer person <_<

I frequent this pet site that's pretty small. There's only about 2500 registered users, and there's maybe 30 or so regulars, most of which interact in the forum and/or the site skype group. While you can't get to know everyone incredibly well, you definitely get pretty familiar with most of the users after you've been there a while. The one user there, who doesn't identify as a gender (but uses he/him and she/her pronouns), is kinda rude to people who use they/them. Like she just acts like she's better than people who use they/them because, if you want to split hairs, they/them is technically used when referencing multiple people, and not just a singular person. She doesn't view it as a problem though, and chalks up her unwillingness to use they/them as a side effect of her being a writer. We don't usually hang around the same part of the forum, but it still kinda bugs me that there's a high likelihood I'll have to interact with someone at some point that, despite viewing our genders similarly, probably won't use my pronouns, or will probably think less of me because of my pronouns. I think one or two other (but less active) users on the site use they/them too so :/ It hasn't caused any problems, but seeing someone so proud of it just rubs me the wrong way, especially since I have other friends that also write in their free time, and none of them make a big deal of the whole they/them thing

Writer who uses they/them here, no offense but this person is full of BS.

My favourite counter-argument to that is that, if you want to split hairs, "you" is also technically supposed to be used when referring to multiple people. A singular person that you're talking to should be "thou", unless you want to show respect, in which case you use the plural "you" in order to show the proper level of respect. It's the same concept of "tu" being singular and familiar in French, and "vous" being plural and/or respectful. Except within the last couple hundred years, saying "you" to one person that was not an authority figure was wrong.

So, if "you" can change and become a singular pronoun from being a plural one, then so can "they".

For citation, go ahead and look at the Wikipedia page on Thou. In fact, upon skimming it just now, when I went to get the link, it appears thou is still in usage in some dialects of English. So voila. Hairs have been split ;)

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Argh, I'm still the youngest...

On topic: things I've heard on AVEN alone-

"Trans women are not real women"

"Gender theory isn't backed by science"

"God made two genders for a reason"

(Almost)No one argues that God made cancer for a reason. The argument that gender was made by God and is therefore immutable is that is inconsistent with the idea that it is okay to alter yourself in other ways, such as to remove tumors(in fact anything you do alters yourself in some way, but that's not my point) I'm not saying transness is similar to cancer, I'm just pointing out that not everything was made perfect.

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Hehe. I think you meant to say "I'm not saying transness is similar to cancer" but accidentally said "I'm saying transness is similar to cancer" ;)

:cake:

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Hehe. I think you meant to say "I'm not saying transness is similar to cancer" but accidentally said "I'm saying transness is similar to cancer" ;)

:cake:

OMG, yes, I meant to say, "not".

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And how old do I look? Teenager? :P

This whole dispute about God irritates me. People project their own fears of being proven wrong and a "You made a mistake" into the person of God, in order to justify themselves.

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I'm actually a religious person who thinks God made more than two genders. He may have made two sexes (+intersex), but he obviously made trans and non-binary people as well, otherwise where would those people have come from? After talking to a few trans and non-binary people, it's clear they aren't lying about who they are, and so God must have made them that way.

Religion is only an argument against multiple genders if you make it to be. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who want to be transphobic, and have no qualms about using religion as their weapon to do so.

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Push Pop the Wolfdog

test: what gender are you? [male] [female]

me: no

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I'm actually a religious person who thinks God made more than two genders. He may have made two sexes (+intersex), but he obviously made trans and non-binary people as well, otherwise where would those people have come from? After talking to a few trans and non-binary people, it's clear they aren't lying about who they are, and so God must have made them that way.

Religion is only an argument against multiple genders if you make it to be. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who want to be transphobic, and have no qualms about using religion as their weapon to do so.

Thank you for this Delta. I think this is a really important point to make; transphobic people are transphobic. Not their weapons.

A hammer is a tool; it can be used to make useful things, or to hurt people, just as easily. Religion and faith can be amazing things. They can also be used as tools to cause harm, when transphobic people choose to do so. But it's the person who is being transphobic, not the tool.

:cake:

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  • 4 weeks later...
Dodecahedron314

Today at lunch I tried to explain to someone in the other house in my dorm why it wasn't okay to force nonbinary people to use binary gendered bathrooms because dysphoria, and then immediately had it cisplained to me that "it's not a matter of dysphoria or anything like that" and that it should be sufficient for me to just break the gendered bathroom rules by going into the binary bathrooms anyway if I had a problem with it.

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I'm actually a religious person who thinks God made more than two genders. He may have made two sexes (+intersex), but he obviously made trans and non-binary people as well, otherwise where would those people have come from? After talking to a few trans and non-binary people, it's clear they aren't lying about who they are, and so God must have made them that way.

Religion is only an argument against multiple genders if you make it to be. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who want to be transphobic, and have no qualms about using religion as their weapon to do so.

I believe just like anything else that God gave us all a free will so in that sense of respect, we CAN choose our own gender.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Word for word on under a youtube comment I made. (I still don't care what they say anyway because it's the internet and youtube comment sections aren't known for their good discussions.)

I basically commented on a video where someone I'm still subscribed to, was basically saying nonsense about the binary that western culture promotes. (Yeah- also these commenters probably never heard of the fact that in India, they recognize a third gender LEGALLY- I know India has it's own problems etc, but the binary is one of the reasons I hate western culture)

My original comment- "My whole problem with the binary genders has everything to do with the stereotypes. According to stores/stereotypes females are supposed to like frilly fancy (boring to me) stuff..and male is supposed to be into sports and be macho."

The Winged Tortoise- "Then you're more of a Tomboy and aren't a girly girl git"

My responses to that-" Aww- how nice of you to tell me how to feel about the binary gender system the Western world takes to extreme! :) Your comment is So Insightful (NOT)"

My response #2- Binary genders Suck. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Metal Weeb-"The problem isn't the genders, it's the roles and stereotypes we push on those genders. Making up new genders is not the answer."

My response # 3- "Metal Weeb So- Western Culture is Always right....RIIIGHT. I don't identify with any of the hodgepodge of either binary gender and I hate filling out "female" on forms that have nothing to do with medical stuff."

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Wow..this one comment on the same thread just now takes the cake...

Metel Weeb- "You shouldn't demand society to bend over backward to accommodate your special snowflake status. Behavior like this trivializes real trans people with real dysphoria."

:blink:

Basically according to them- having dysphoria and being non-binary somehow invalidates trans people. :blink: :blink: :blink:

Yep- knew there'd be at least one commenter who'd have me rolling my eyes and laughing at the same time.

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My dysphoria is 100% real, organic, and home grown. Not like that GMO dysphoria.

(Tongue in cheek, as I'm very pro biotech ;) )

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My dysphoria is 100% real, organic, and home grown. Not like that GMO dysphoria.

(Tongue in cheek, as I'm very pro biotech ;) )

Yeah- I mean- that GMO dysphoria just doesn't have the same taste! :O (I had to relate it to fruit..LOL)

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Wow..this one comment on the same thread just now takes the cake...

Metel Weeb- "You shouldn't demand society to bend over backward to accommodate your special snowflake status. Behavior like this trivializes real trans people with real dysphoria."

:blink:

Basically according to them- having dysphoria and being non-binary somehow invalidates trans people. :blink: :blink: :blink:

Yep- knew there'd be at least one commenter who'd have me rolling my eyes and laughing at the same time.

Funny thing about all these people that say that non binary people invalidate the existence of trans people by being "special snowflakes" are people that don't even give a genuine crap about trans people to begin with ... Amazing how hysterical humans are sometimes.

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In THIS forum, of all places:

"Why can't we have a debate about gender identities? Guess you just want to be a victim"

Um, no. This is not hot box. Our identities are NOT up for debate. This ain't some fun mental exercise to flex your arguing skills over. Know your place.

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epiphanycakes

" are sure its not as autistic thing?" nope its a me thing

" your gonna make a strange looking woman!" bitch please I get hit on by guys

" your into woman, why don't you stay a guy it will be easier to have a gf " :mad:

" omg you were so handsome as a guy its such a waste!!" um have you notice i never smile in these pics? yea I was fucking miserable :angry:

" you not a girly girl how can you be trans?" -sighs- crying at night count when i was a "boy" ?

" wow you look really good as a woman do yo do this all the time ?" just ..... omg <_<

" so when you getting the surgery?" ohh you wanna date if not please shut up

"are those boobs real? ( and or ) can i touch them ? " -_- sigh yes there real and no you cant that's sexual assault

"so when did you start being transgender?" ummm I don't know from birth maybe? <_<

" wow you had me fooled" wow you I thought you wouldn't notice -sarcasm-

" but who are you really?" umm emily why you ask ?

i could go on :unsure:

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butterflydreams

*hugs* epiphanycakes.

I hate the one about "you are such a handsome guy, what a waste". Or anything that implies you should just "stay a guy" because it'll be "easier". To me that whole vein of reasoning shows a painful lack of empathy or attempt at understanding trans people. Butch up and start going out with some woman? How in the world is that fair to me? Or her?!

There are lots of positive things about being trans, but one of the biggest ones is you find out very clearly who your real friends are.

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epiphanycakes

*hugs* epiphanycakes.

I hate the one about "you are such a handsome guy, what a waste". Or anything that implies you should just "stay a guy" because it'll be "easier". To me that whole vein of reasoning shows a painful lack of empathy or attempt at understanding trans people. Butch up and start going out with some woman? How in the world is that fair to me? Or her?!

There are lots of positive things about being trans, but one of the biggest ones is you find out very clearly who your real friends are.

*hugs bk Hadley* yea our my gran or extended family with i'm forced due to my hair removal messing with my face to be in boy mode .Calling me handsome and son and "big man " i grit my teeth

there getting better. and iv had all of the above said to my face and i'm like what?

the handsome guy one made me so dysphoric I almost cried . it was a friend or something :angry: and they were like " whats wrong its only the truth!" :mad:

and my papa once asked me the "your into woman, why don't you stay a guy it will be easier to have a gf" <_<

and I was like I'm doing it cus i'm miserable and hate my body it has nothing to do with that -sigh

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butterflydreams

ARGH!!!

Please don't tell me we need an "annoying things trans people say" thread now, too:

"I think that perhaps one reason that many trans women are lesbians may be a general distrust of men and a the fear of violence that so many trans women have suffered at the hands of men."

Hmm, so if I'm a trans woman, and I'm kind of afraid of men...I can just choose to be a lesbian. ??????? :blink: :blink: :blink:

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epiphanycakes

ARGH!!!

Please don't tell me we need an "annoying things trans people say" thread now, too:

"I think that perhaps one reason that many trans women are lesbians may be a general distrust of men and a the fear of violence that so many trans women have suffered at the hands of men."

Hmm, so if I'm a trans woman, and I'm kind of afraid of men...I can just choose to be a lesbian. ??????? :blink: :blink: :blink:

omg yes I got that from a straight trans woman i'm like <_< no I dated a few guys ( cis and I hated it ) I might *might* date a trans guy ( I had a super girl crush on my bestie was super awkward) but I defiantly prefer woman/girls i'm still figuring out stuff because my hormones are changing a lot of how I feel as I might be coming bi/pan? I don't know -shrugs-

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Hehe. I wish I could just choose my sexual orientation. I'd choose to become sexual for a bit, just to see what it's like. I'd take being a lesbian. Or straight, I'm not picky. Or bi.

But for real serious talk. I think this is invalidating to people whose orientation does change after a traumatic experience too. I know there are documented cases of a straight woman becoming a lesbian after a traumatic event (rape, or an abusive relationship, for example). But that's not the same as a choice. She didn't just up and choose to never date men again because she "hates men" or something. If it were that much of a choice, half my straight women friends would have made that choice at least for a little while after bad breakups (or so they've said). Maybe for some people it is a choice, but I know that many people don't find it to be a choice.

And heck, even if it were... why is that somehow less valid? I know that the quotation doesn't actually say that, but far too often, people who say things like that are implying that if they can explain someone's orientation with a reason, then it's less "real" somehow. Like, she's just a lesbian because a man beat her up that once. But she's not really a lesbian. It's like they're saying that these trans women don't really like women, they just don't like men. So they're lesbians, because that's how all this works, right?

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^ Interesting, I'm currently following a documentary about a trans couple the lady (Louisa) once said to the one interviewing her that she just gotten tired of men so she just loves women but obviously indentifies as panromantic (She said she loves everyone).Her partner is a lesbian but indentifies as FTM. Their names are Louisa and Rosanna and so is the name of their show on TLC. One of the things Louisa said was quite interesting: She said "Frankly, I don't give a shit about what other people say about me, I just do what i want and if you don't like it then that's your problem and not mine, that's the message i want to bring to the other trans people out there"

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Everyone saying "What a waste" in regards to sexual/gender identities needs to be punched in the face by one of the Klitschko brothers. This is the most useless thing anyone could ever say.

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epiphanycakes

Everyone saying "What a waste" in regards to sexual/gender identities needs to be punched in the face by one of the Klitschko brothers. This is the most useless thing anyone could ever say.

it was in a guiltily sort of mindset like " why do you want to ruin your body!?! bullshit -hugs homer- some people don't understand i'm a girl inside I guess

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butterflydreams

Hehe. I wish I could just choose my sexual orientation. I'd choose to become sexual for a bit, just to see what it's like. I'd take being a lesbian. Or straight, I'm not picky. Or bi.

But for real serious talk. I think this is invalidating to people whose orientation does change after a traumatic experience too. I know there are documented cases of a straight woman becoming a lesbian after a traumatic event (rape, or an abusive relationship, for example). But that's not the same as a choice. She didn't just up and choose to never date men again because she "hates men" or something. If it were that much of a choice, half my straight women friends would have made that choice at least for a little while after bad breakups (or so they've said). Maybe for some people it is a choice, but I know that many people don't find it to be a choice.

And heck, even if it were... why is that somehow less valid? I know that the quotation doesn't actually say that, but far too often, people who say things like that are implying that if they can explain someone's orientation with a reason, then it's less "real" somehow. Like, she's just a lesbian because a man beat her up that once. But she's not really a lesbian. It's like they're saying that these trans women don't really like women, they just don't like men. So they're lesbians, because that's how all this works, right?

Mmm, Heart, this is actually really tough for me. I totally see what you're saying, and agree with a lot of it. Cases of assault or abuse notwithstanding of course, all my life I was told again and again and again that sexual orientation is not a choice, and that so much of what people agitated for was based on that premise. After all, if it's choosable, suddenly conversion therapy has a leg to stand on. It's just a very scary can of worms I'm afraid to open.

The person who wrote that quote is in fact a trans woman (who ironically seems to be in a pretty abusive relationship with her wife, it's very sad). I understand that there are situations (especially with asexuals) where our orientations are explained away, and that's not right, of course. Though that's not how I read the line. I could be wrong, but it seemed to me she was saying a "general distrust" (which is awfully vague) and a "fear of violence" were being used to make a choice. Both of those are based on things that haven't actually happened. See what I mean? It's really tough. I think she's treading a very fine line and even that makes me very uncomfortable.

Ugh! I'm just so conflicted. I maybe flew off the handle a little too much initially, but still. Whenever I see any implication that people can just choose their orientation, or gender for that matter, there's an immediate red alert in my head. I wouldn't have chosen what I am. It just is who I am, and I deal the best I can. Any implication that I "chose" it is so unfathomably hurtful. If it really was an innocuous line that happened to hit on a personal sore spot for me, I'm sorry.

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The-world-is-quiet-here

I chose my current therapist because she said she dealt with nonbinary and transgender issues. I was trying to explain to her that I was nonbinary, and she said, "Well, if you're not male or female, to me you're both!"

Huh? In what world does "neither" mean "both"? I mean, I guess if you're genderfluid and fluctuate between the two main binary genders that could be the case, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I was upset about this conversation, so I tried to talk to my mom about it. The main thing I remember her saying was:

"It's hard for someone who's not on the gender spectrum to understand the 55 shades in between." Earlier, she had asked me if my therapist was cis, and I said something like "I don't know. She says she doesn't care." And then we got to that point. Later, my mom asked me, "Are you going to switch from [current therapist]? I know that's why you switched from [past therapist]. It seems kind of drastic." By that point, I had started crying in front of her, and she was taking off her makeup so she didn't notice.

Kind of drastic. It's "kind of drastic" for me to want to change therapists to somebody who can understand me? I am surrounded by cis people who don't understand.

I'm so done. :/

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