#Trans + non-binary problems

[Homer]

So they made up a pronoun just to not call you correctly?

 

*doesn't compute*

[Toothlesss]

Believing that we bring on our own dysphoria. 

 

Yes, I always look forward to my period reminding me how much I hate femininity. 😒And language nuances. 

[butterflydreams]

I'm just going to start laughing at radfems and their complete and utter bullshit and misandry.

 

"All FtMs are either butch lesbians who can't accept themselves or feminine women who want to avoid being sexualized by dirty disgusting men. All MtFs are sometimes gay men who can't accept themselves but mostly they're disgusting perverts who get off on the idea of being women, autogynephiles."

 

Lady, you're the only disgusting pervert here. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Actually no, I like horses, leave the horse so it doesn't have to carry around your bigoted ass anymore. I never wish dysphoria on anyone, but I will wish it on people like this. They insult everyone with their gender supremacist bullshit. I'm laughing at them.

 

I rarely come across "detransitioned" trans women, but plenty of trans men who've "detransitioned", and the responses are always, "welcome home sister." Christ...so to my trans brothers out there, you guys kick ass. Never let these fools and their "betraying the sisterhood" bullshit get you down. I don't feel like there's any "male brotherhood" equivalent that wants me back. In fact, all the men in my life have been awesome. The worst I got was my best friend being a smart ass, "When you trade in your p for a v, I'd be willing to help you try it out." Lol "worst" I actually laughed my ass off when he told me that.

[Guest And Peggy]

Happy (ten-days late xD) birthday, thread  

 

[Emery.]

A rainbow cake!

Thank you for bringing it! Awsome!

[Guest And Peggy]

Wait, never mind, I'm an idiot. I read it as March 25 instead of March 15, it's actual birthday xD 

[Mezzo Forte]

19 hours ago, Hadley167 said:

I'm just going to start laughing at radfems and their complete and utter bullshit and misandry.

 

"All FtMs are either butch lesbians who can't accept themselves or feminine women who want to avoid being sexualized by dirty disgusting men. All MtFs are sometimes gay men who can't accept themselves but mostly they're disgusting perverts who get off on the idea of being women, autogynephiles."

 

Lady, you're the only disgusting pervert here. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. Actually no, I like horses, leave the horse so it doesn't have to carry around your bigoted ass anymore. I never wish dysphoria on anyone, but I will wish it on people like this. They insult everyone with their gender supremacist bullshit. I'm laughing at them.

 

I rarely come across "detransitioned" trans women, but plenty of trans men who've "detransitioned", and the responses are always, "welcome home sister." Christ...so to my trans brothers out there, you guys kick ass. Never let these fools and their "betraying the sisterhood" bullshit get you down. I don't feel like there's any "male brotherhood" equivalent that wants me back. In fact, all the men in my life have been awesome. The worst I got was my best friend being a smart ass, "When you trade in your p for a v, I'd be willing to help you try it out." Lol "worst" I actually laughed my ass off when he told me that.

Laughter is probably the best way to address these people. There's just such a layer of absurdity to the conspiracy-theory kind of bullshit they believe unironically. (It's a form of venomous misandry that touches everyone except for cis-women really.)

 

You know, I think the most famous "welcome home sister" article like what you describe was actually about a transman who temporarily discontinued T, (he rushed into HRT and found that the changes were coming on too fast,) yet he explicitly stated that he wasn't detransitioning. (The guy went back on T after he stopped passing, and is still a prominent YouTuber/trans activist to this day.) TERFs probably don't have the subtlety to see the difference between discontinuing HRT and detransitioning.

 

I know you've heard me say this before, but even as someone feminist-esque ideologies, I still say fuck the feminist guilt that comes with FtM transition. I didn't enjoy feeling like people wanted to use me to further their politics when I was perceived female, and I definitely didn't enjoy the implicit shaming of my passivity that came as I began to be perceived male and didn't become a loud&proud activist.

 

Also, your best friend sounds like a keeper, Hadley Can't say that anyone's quite said the same to me yet, (unless you count the occasional comment on my apparent attractiveness anyways ) but I guess FtM bottom surgery just doesn't get talked about as much in most spaces, so the only bottom surgery conversation I ever get to have is stuttering and stopping halfway through answering "so, how does phalloplasty even work anyways?"

[butterflydreams]

12 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

It's a form of venomous misandry that touches everyone except for cis-women really.

Hehe, shocking how it works out like that, isn't it?

 

12 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

I know you've heard me say this before, but even as someone feminist-esque ideologies, I still say fuck the feminist guilt that comes with FtM transition. I didn't enjoy feeling like people wanted to use me to further their politics when I was perceived female, and I definitely didn't enjoy the implicit shaming of my passivity that came as I began to be perceived male and didn't become a loud&proud activist.

Holy shit, Mezzo, you are so awesome it hurts. I love how much you've come into your own as you've transitioned. It's so cool to be watching from the outside. I love that you've got these strong convictions, and I love how you voice them.

 

14 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

Also, your best friend sounds like a keeper, Hadley Can't say that anyone's quite said the same to me yet, (unless you count the occasional comment on my apparent attractiveness anyways ) but I guess FtM bottom surgery just doesn't get talked about as much in most spaces, so the only bottom surgery conversation I ever get to have is stuttering and stopping halfway through answering "so, how does phalloplasty even work anyways?"

Hehe, well, not for nothing, but you are pretty attractive

 

Yeah, he's such a great friend. It hasn't been too bad, but there are people who treat me very differently now since I've transitioned. With some people it's positive, like how I was able to better connect with my friend from college. My dysphoria and spiraling isolation was ultimately the cause of our original break up. Transitioning when I did saved our friendship. She's a huge support to me now.

 

On the other hand, some people I feel put kid gloves on, and treat me as if I were so fragile. As though they're afraid to offend me, or upset me. That's what I like about my "can I sex you after the surgery?" friend. That kind of thing is 100% in line with something he would've said before transition. I love that he didn't change at all, because by and large, I'm still the same basic person. I still love that crude sense of humor, and I'm no stranger to poking fun at myself, including parts of my transition. To me, that's not an annoying thing cis people say, that's being a perfect ally. I laugh my ass off when he makes sarcastic sexist remarks about me, "omg, you're such a pain in the ass woman...why the fuck won't you just buy this one?" Because I'm just going to give it right back to him later, "you're being one hell of a typical dense guy...she's obviously trying to get you to understand _____ and _____."

 

It's hard when people put kid gloves on for me. I don't like it. People who transition aren't weak meltable snowflakes, they're tough as hell.

[Mezzo Forte]

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Holy shit, Mezzo, you are so awesome it hurts. I love how much you've come into your own as you've transitioned. It's so cool to be watching from the outside. I love that you've got these strong convictions, and I love how you voice them.

 

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Hehe, well, not for nothing, but you are pretty attractive

Spoiler

You flatter me, Hadley. You really do  

 

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Yeah, he's such a great friend. It hasn't been too bad, but there are people who treat me very differently now since I've transitioned. With some people it's positive, like how I was able to better connect with my friend from college. My dysphoria and spiraling isolation was ultimately the cause of our original break up. Transitioning when I did saved our friendship. She's a huge support to me now.

I definitely understand what you mean about the changes for better or worse. I never expected my one friend in particular to become such an important source of support. I went from having a more intellectual bond to one of the most emotionally intimate friendships I've ever had. The only other (non-familial) bond that feels similar is that of my best friend of 10 years, who I don't get to chat with very often as of late.

 

(Also, I feel less and less emotionally vulnerable the more I come out to people, but not everyone picks up on that, so they take my coming out as carte blanche to really open up to me. It catches me off-guard a lot nowadays.)

 

The kids glove thing though, I feel that one so bad. I've talked to people in my life who I could tell were really curious and wanted to ask questions, but clearly weren't going to because they were afraid of saying the wrong thing. (I can tell you that my percussion studio clearly doesn't dare involve me in their games of grab-ass either, though I guess that's to my advantage. ) Granted, they're all probably trying to be respectful, and it probably helps that I'm not being constantly bombarded with questions about surgeries and whatnot, but it does get awkward after a while.

[Member106624]

.

[butterflydreams]

I was reading up on the #FreeSpeechBus that's apparently coming to Boston this week. Give it a google if you want, it's pretty hilarious. They actually painted a bus bright orange and have all kinds of stuff on it like "girls will always be girls and boys will always be boys" etc, etc. And they're just driving it around.

 

Anyway, I came across a website of an organization in Massachusetts that's defending the bus (Massachusetts Family Institute). I wasn't terribly surprised what I found on their site, but it was interesting. One article in particular made me think though. It was basically about how they're taking a stand against Massachusetts' bill protecting bathroom rights. Here's the relevant excerpt:

Quote

“Teaching women to ignore red flags and disregard boundaries is not only psychologically harmful; it’s actually dangerous… Does a woman, ever in her life, have the right to exist in a space without the presence of a male?”

Whenever I see shit like this, I instinctually slide the word "black" in front of "male" or "man/men" and "white" in front of "female" or "woman/women" and I see if the statement doesn't sound fucked six ways 'til sunday. As this quoted statement definitely does. "Does a pure innocent white woman have the right to exist in a space without the presence of a black male?" Pretty bad, right? So the original is probably something you shouldn't be saying either then. All I did in adding those words was made it more specific. By making it less specific, you're actually lumping in even more people all under the same banner of "bad". At least my version it was "just" black men. See how bad it is now?

 

My other question about these kinds of things is to invert it. "Does a man, ever in his life, have the right to exist in a space without the presence of women?" Not quite as jarring, but should be equally valid, right? And if you don't think so, why not? If you're going to argue that women should have the right to exist in spaces without men, then by the laws of equality, you must argue that men have the right to exist in spaces without women. Somehow I don't think that'll happen.

 

These people are so disingenuous, hypocritical and inconsistent it boggles my mind.

[cosmosredshift7]

"Since you're dating a guy now, do you feel more like a girl?"

 

What shit will cishet people think of next??? 

[Alex the Queer]

"you're either one or the other. there's only two genders, you can't be anything else". (lol fucking watch me). the good ole "what are you? well what's in your pants" (only reason you are ever going to know what's in my pants is if you are also going to be in them). "if you have a penis you're a dude, if you have a vagina you're a girl" (just plain ignorant). "well you have x biological sex so you're this and that's final" (mate i'm p sure the only one that gets to decide my gender is me). "you're just confused/it's  just a phase/you're just a snowflake trying to be LGBT" (definitely not a phase, and it can confuse you all you damn well please, but that doesn't change the fact that i'm still positive of it).

[ChillaKilla]

Not cis by any means, but an annoying thing a trans friend said to me about my presentation- "I think it's good you got your hair cut. Long hair doesn't suit you as an enby." Um... What? I didn't realize there was a definitive "nonbinary" look that I had to have for my gender identity to be valid. I only cut my hair because I was curious about how it would be, having never had short hair before, and I figured it would be a necessity in order to be taken seriously as trans while I wait for testosterone to do its thing. But as soon as I look more masculine in terms of body structure and such in going back to longish hair because it's just my style. I'm sure there are tons of long haired enbies! Hair does not correlate like that!

[Guest And Peggy]

I get that all the time too. Even my friend who was mostly supporting said something like "you can't really be agender right now if you don't want to cut your hair"

[ChillaKilla]

1 minute ago, CakeSpadeAce said:

I get that all the time too. Even my friend who was mostly supporting said something like "you can't really be agender right now if you don't want to cut your hair"

People always forget that "nonbinary" is not synonymous with "butch AFAB with messy neon undercut"

[<No longer active>]

10 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

People always forget that "nonbinary" is not synonymous with "butch AFAB with messy neon undercut"

for a lot of us AFAB enby's though, short hair is more of a necessity, because we tend to be read as females, and a haircut is the easiest way to present.

 

However, I completely understand wanting long hair; I had 11 inches of hair cut off, but before then I loved the length, even though in the end it needed too much maintenance.

 

I also think I cut my hair off partially because of that stereotype... I don't regret it that often though.

                           

There's upsides and downsides to long hair and short hair.

 

*shrug* I think my short hair says more about the person I was and am than my gender identity.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Cos neutral always looks 'masculine' amirite?  *completely forget Viking men used to braid their long hair*

[ChillaKilla]

@rivkael I'm with you on the maintenance bit. I wish it was as easy to maintain long as it is short ;-; but I liked having longer hair...

[<No longer active>]

4 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

@rivkael I'm with you on the maintenance bit. I wish it was as easy to maintain long as it is short ;-; but I liked having longer hair...

thing about my hair tho is that it grows super fast, so I need a cut every 6-8 weeks if I don't want to end up like viktor nikiforov. It doesn't work so well outside of anime, esp. with thick hair and glasses :/

[Mychemicalqpr]

1 hour ago, rivkael said:

thing about my hair tho is that it grows super fast, so I need a cut every 6-8 weeks if I don't want to end up like viktor nikiforov. It doesn't work so well outside of anime, esp. with thick hair and glasses :/

This is why I always have a clip in my hair. Having hair in my face is just too annoying. It's not worth the anime aesthetic. But then of course clips are "feminine", but so are skirts and scarves and necklaces an basically anything fun, so I give up. 

[butterflydreams]

Ugh!......UGH!

 

I have a new employee at work, and I've been training him on stuff. I made a call to a company we have to deal with a lot, on speakerphone. Said what I needed to, then they asked for my name at the end. I told them, and then I get, "Ok, thank you very much, sir." Right in front of my new employee.

 

Then I get a chat from another long-time employee, "hey, I have a great halloween costume idea for you. I sent you an email." I get back to my desk, open the email. It's a photo of me from 2011 when I started working here. I guess it was from the email introducing me to the company. I was shocked to see that photo. And upset. I immediately deleted it.

 

I'm sure it wasn't malicious, and he didn't understand how hurtful it can be to be surprised by something like that. I dunno. Am I overreacting? My friend says I need to tell people when these things happen. I honestly don't feel it's my right to. There's this dumb voice in my head, "c'mon Hadley, you can't correct these people. You're not really a woman anyway." Christ...I'm a wreck.

 

[ChillaKilla]

@Hadley167 That email... Wow. Just... wow. That's hard to see in any way BUT malicious, IMO! That's just horrible. If you even have a fraction of a desire I report it, PLEASE do. And tell that dumb voice in your head to shut the hell up and visit my voice in dumpsterville.

[Mychemicalqpr]

Yes, what Chilla said. You are a real woman Hadley, and you have the right to be one. 

[Gentle Giant]

@Hadley167 I agree with Chilla. That email was terrible! You should at least tell that person that you didn't appreciate that and it was upsetting to you.  If they continue to do this sort of thing you should report them! Too bad you didn't keep that email as evidence in case you need to document harrassment.

[butterflydreams]

17 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

@Hadley167 That email... Wow. Just... wow. That's hard to see in any way BUT malicious, IMO! That's just horrible. If you even have a fraction of a desire I report it, PLEASE do. And tell that dumb voice in your head to shut the hell up and visit my voice in dumpsterville.

I mean, he only sent it directly to me. And I'm sure he didn't understand how shocking it is to see old photos of myself like that. I know he thought it was funny, like "here's a halloween costume for you." We've always been pretty chummy before. Maybe I was just already upset from the phone thing. Unfortunately, even if I wanted to report it, this person is actually quitting the company anyway. His last day is tomorrow.

 

I've had a lot of misgendering incidents over the past few weeks and not a lot of positives to counter them. Plus switching some meds around, and other stuff, I'm just in a really weak position.

[<No longer active>]

first thing my mum said when i got my hair cut short was that i 'looked like a butch lesbian'...

 

thanks, i think? Not quite what I was going for though...

[Lucinda]

Hadley,

 

I would have liked to look at the 2011 photo with you because I bet you look and dress very differently now (hence the Halloween costume idea).  I'm sorry the whole thing hurt and upset you, but at a different time and headspace you may have realized with your own eyes how feminine you look now. 

 

As far as over the phone, when asked your name, you can always say Miss Hadley Lastname.  Realize that the name Hadley can be either male or female.  I always think of Hemingway's first wife, but I also know that they gave their first son the middle name of Hadley too.  If the vendor on the end of the line wasn't sure (or perhaps thought they were mistaken), they might have said "sir" to be on the safe side.  Why is it considered the "safe side"?  Well, let's say that it has more to do with subtle sexism than anything personally about you.

 

Lucinda

 

 

[butterflydreams]

6 minutes ago, Lucinda said:

but at a different time and headspace you may have realized with your own eyes how feminine you look now. 

I guess. I was looking over a bunch of photos last night and got really distressed that I don't pass at all. Again, I think reinforced by a few bad weeks of misgenderings. Probably not true.

 

9 minutes ago, Lucinda said:

As far as over the phone, when asked your name, you can always say Miss Hadley Lastname.  Realize that the name Hadley can be either male or female.  I always think of Hemingway's first wife, but I also know that they gave their first son the middle name of Hadley too.  If the vendor on the end of the line wasn't sure (or perhaps thought they were mistaken), they might have said "sir" to be on the safe side.  Why is it considered the "safe side"?  Well, let's say that it has more to do with subtle sexism than anything personally about you.

I know. Sometimes I feel terrible that I picked this name. Even though it's just...my name. I can't think of any other name that is me. I've actually changed all my email signatures at work to "Ms. Hadley Lastname" and I think it helps a lot. I'm not quite to the point of being able to assert that verbally though. Again, because in my head, the voice is telling me that no one is actually seeing me as female, they're just appeasing me and I'd better not get too pushy about it. And on top of everything, being in the tech industry doesn't help my cause at all. Everyone just assumes everyone is male even harder.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

That was a twat move of him, @Hadley167, I think you should definitely let him know that it was completely uncalled for. You know who you are, don't let society's messages tell you any different.