#Trans + non-binary problems

[_V_]

On 2/15/2017 at 11:20 AM, The-world-is-quiet-here said:

"Did you know that girls who think they're boys can be Boy Scouts?" -my grandma

I wish that's how it worked. They won't let me into girl scouts regardless of what I say.

[butterflydreams]

3 hours ago, _V_ said:

I wish that's how it worked. They won't let me into girl scouts regardless of what I say.

*hugs*

 

My mom was a troop leader for my sister for a while. My sister in her characteristic fashion hated it, but I used to tag along at meetings. It was fun.

[Mezzo Forte]

This is more of a strange thing than an annoying thing, but I visited a friend of mine during my recent travels, and she made a comment basically saying that I'll be able to look back and appreciate I got to experience being a "man with breasts" after top surgery is taken care of. Honestly, I doubt I will feel anything other than relieved once I finally have top surgery. 

[butterflydreams]

1 hour ago, Mezzo Forte said:

basically saying that I'll be able to look back and appreciate I got to experience being a "man with breasts" after top surgery is taken care of.

How the...? What!?

 

I sure hope the intentions were good because this an incredibly disconnected thing to say...my god ...

 

Like, yeah, being a girl with an extra thing between her legs is the greatest! So much fun, and it causes me no embarrassment or distress at all! /s

[Mezzo Forte]

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

How the...? What!?

 

I sure hope the intentions were good because this an incredibly disconnected thing to say...my god ...

 

Like, yeah, being a girl with an extra thing between her legs is the greatest! So much fun, and it causes me no embarrassment or distress at all! /s

That sounds a lot like my internal monologue in the moment. My friend is well-intentioned, but definitely has a very bizarre understanding of trans topics. I don't know if she even fully understands the concept of dysphoria. (She mentioned that I'm her "first trans friend" who she's close enough to have these conversations with.)

 

It's weird because she expected me to look different, but didn't expect me to actually cut my hair or for my voice to drop. She basically asked me if I was still asexual, but had no clue that testosterone affects libido. She claimed that I would set off her gaydar, yet in the same breath hypothesized that I would be into women if I ever experienced attraction. I even had to dispel the common misunderstandings about gay transpeople (the "what's the point if you could just be straight" argument,) that came purely from confusion rather than malice.

 

These are just the highlights; we had a lot of strange talks while I was there. She's a dear friend, but I was genuinely surprised by how little she knew, especially since my feminist friends tend to be ahead of the curve in that regard. Guess this is just another lesson about pre-judgement for me.

[Emery.]

I sometimes wonder if someone is talking about me if they talk how women should or should not dress. I just ignore it so hard and even sometimes go like "Yeah, women look good in long hair and skirts" and continue with that self-righteous attitude about how a woman should look like, LOL. But it's really annoying when someone equates "more feminine" or "like a woman" with "looking better". Those "you look like a man in that" *makes a disapproving frown* comments. I am a man, I already told you that. That's why I look like one.

[butterflydreams]

19 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

These are just the highlights; we had a lot of strange talks while I was there. She's a dear friend, but I was genuinely surprised by how little she knew, especially since my feminist friends tend to be ahead of the curve in that regard. Guess this is just another lesson about pre-judgement for me.

I think this is an almost universal actually. I was just hanging out with an old college friend this weekend. She's one of the most important and supportive people in my life. But some of the conversations we had were surprising. I honestly think it's mostly because as people who are actually in it, dealing with it, we have this incredibly intimate understanding of what's going on, how things work, etc, etc. And we're so immersed in that, it's easy to forget that yeah, you and I? We might be the only trans people our friends have ever met. They really might not know anything.

 

Personally, I'm happy to talk to her about stuff. We have the kind of friendship where we've already grossed each other out as much as we can, so pretty much everything is on the table. One of the things that surprised me was our drastically different understandings of what it means for "downstairs parts" to "work". I have my own, very specific understanding of what I mean by "work" and I didn't think that hers would be different, but it became clear that it really was. Because she's looking at the world in a cis (and hetero) centric way, which isn't good or bad, just like I have to look at the same world through a trans lens. So I got to explain to her how that dysphoria manifests for me, and why my definition of "works" was so different. I also explained that as things have changed for me, far from being distressed and upset as a cis guy would almost certainly be, if pushed through the same changes, I was incredibly relieved. I got the sense that this was all new information she was integrating into her own understanding of things.

 

Of course, being asexual on top of everything complicates it even more. Her opinion and understanding of sex is very different from mine, and I'm sure she ranks it far more highly in importance than I do. This seemed like less of an understanding gap to bridge though.

 

Ultimately I felt good talking about it. She seemed very receptive and now has some extra information about things.

[Mezzo Forte]

@Hadley167, you're very right, especially since transition can have such a broad impact on daily life, it's easy to forget that the truths we almost take for granted are near invisible to others. A lot of closer friends already had some understanding of trans issues beforehand, and most others just don't engage me in these kinds of conversations. (Well, some ask the basics, but that feels very different from this interaction with my friend.)

 

(Come to think of it, that's probably why my mom will say/ask some really bizarre things and not realize the implications. I'm taken aback by how much people shower my mom with praise for being accepting of me, and I'm afraid this convinces her that she can do no wrong as an ally. I love her and appreciate her support so much, but I wish that she listened a little better, especially after a couple of things she pulled recently that made me uncomfortable.)

[butterflydreams]

6 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

it's easy to forget that the truths we almost take for granted are near invisible to others

Yup, it really is. And I try really hard not to blame cis people for misunderstandings, even if some of them are frustrating. And hey, my friend even had questions about trans guys, which I at least felt somewhat reasonably able to answer. That's an even bigger blind spot for people it seems, so now maybe she'll know a little bit more. 

 

Another thing I found interesting, especially considering she knows me, and has seen what I've gone through, is that like many people, she seemed to be less aware of passability. Apparently, I do pass, but it's different, because she's known me forever. She understands I look very different now. But I showed her my collection of hairstyle photos I liked, and a few of them actually a trans girl. She was completely surprised and in disbelief.

 

9 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

(Come to think of it, that's probably why my mom will say/ask some really bizarre things and not realize the implications. I'm taken aback by how much people shower my mom with praise for being accepting of me, and I'm afraid this convinces her that she can do no wrong as an ally. I love her and appreciate her support so much, but I wish that she listened a little better, especially after a couple of things she pulled recently that made me uncomfortable.)

Mmm, I can definitely see that being a problem. If I might play devil's advocate though, moms frequently have that "I can't do anything wrong" attitude, especially when it comes to their interpretations of loving their children. So I'm hoping it has less to do with you being trans than you think. Either way, hopefully talking with her would help. I'm not a mom, but maybe it's hard to make a shift from leading for your child, to letting your child lead when they're ready. As you are now. Maybe your mom is still taking that mom role and wanting to lead and protect you out of habit. Just some random thoughts. I hope you're able to talk and clear things up a bit

[Mezzo Forte]

Experience and training shape perception. Such a pervasive truth, yet so easy to forget. Musical training affects how you hear music. Working with cars changes how you experience driving. Transition changes the very way your brain registers gender. As you once said, nobody can clock a trans person quite like another trans person.

 

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Mmm, I can definitely see that being a problem. If I might play devil's advocate though, moms frequently have that "I can't do anything wrong" attitude, especially when it comes to their interpretations of loving their children. So I'm hoping it has less to do with you being trans than you think. Either way, hopefully talking with her would help. I'm not a mom, but maybe it's hard to make a shift from leading for your child, to letting your child lead when they're ready. As you are now. Maybe your mom is still taking that mom role and wanting to lead and protect you out of habit. Just some random thoughts. I hope you're able to talk and clear things up a bit

No worries about playing devil's advocate; I do the same all the time. Honestly, the "can do no wrong" thing is definitely not unique to trans topics. In fact, I feel like my mom sees so much of herself in me that she has trouble seeing how we differ. Well-intentioned as she is, that tends to make her speak for me, assuming that I would always want the same things as her instead of asking for my thoughts. It's a genuine blind spot of hers that carries over really easily to trans topics, which makes the massive amount of ally cookies that people give her all the more concerning.

 

And the "letting your child lead" is something she's going to always struggle with. There's so many layers to this topic that discussing it would get really wordy really quick, but there's no way she's ever going to just let me lead. I've certainly talked to her about it multiple times over the years, even from the trans angle, but she does more to try and sway my way of thinking than change her actions. (Basically telling me that doesn't see me as a child, so her actions shouldn't make me feel like one. Heck, she still controls a lot of my brother's life, and he's 40 and has a wife/children.)  I've found that the only way I can take the lead is if I basically act more dominant than her, and the only way to maintain control will probably be financial independence and persistence.

 

 

(Plus, it'd be nice not to have to consult my mother whenever I want to buy stuff. God, just switching to men's underwear was a giant headache. I really resent the fact that at 23 years of age, I had to convince my mom to let me buy boxer briefs, and even had to explain my downstairs growth to her so she'd stop insisting that I "wouldn't like them." The biggest reason why I don't own an STP is because I really don't want to explain to my mother why I'm spending a few hundred dollars on a prosthetic dick.)

 

[butterflydreams]

1 hour ago, Mezzo Forte said:

Transition changes the very way your brain registers gender.

My brother's girlfriend told me this once, and I didn't believe her. I suppose it's a lot like explaining to a fish what water is.

 

1 hour ago, Mezzo Forte said:

the only way to maintain control will probably be financial independence and persistence.

For better or worse, and taking a page from the Hadley Book, I think there's a lot of truth to this. Just because you have accepting and supporting parents doesn't mean the best thing for you is always to bend to their lead. As sure as the tides go in and out, children have to grow up and take their own lead, one way or another.

 

If it makes you feel any better, my friend went through something similar with her mom, and she's older than even me. So I think these are things we all have to face in one way or another. Being trans might make it a little harder, or different, but I believe you'd be in good company if you asked around to how others worked through that sort of "changing of the guard" process with parents.

 

As to your spoiler, mmm, that's tough. I'm sorry. If it would help you to get one of those, I think you should. Make it a personal priority for yourself. Or even call it a reward. You've worked hard and done a lot. Sometimes calling something a reward helps me to justify doing or getting something I should have anyway.

[Mezzo Forte]

Just for the sake of not totally derailing things, here's one of the well-intentioned, yet frustrating scenarios I dealt with last week:

 

I was recently misgendered while traveling with my mother, and I made the mistake of pointing it out to her. Mom made a scene out of it after I asked her not to say anything. She went on to tell me that I needed to correct people every single time it happens, chiding me because I didn't say anything the last few times I've been misgendered. 

 

(Seriously, what is with flight attendants and misgendering me? I've been passing near 100% nowadays, yet it happened 3 times in a week, with two of them happening on the same exact flight.)

 

@Hadley167, thank you for your words. Most of the people around me tend to be really shocked when they learn of how much power my mom still has over me, so sometimes it's nice to be reminded that it's not a necessarily unique experience. Honestly, the biggest thing transition did was make my mom get even more attached to me, so that might actually make the changing of the guard harder for me than it would for either of my siblings.

 

As for the spoiler stuff,

I definitely felt like I needed an STP early on when I didn't feel like I passed well, because I was super insecure about using a stall to pee, especially having to sit. Nowadays, I care a lot less, but I still get super uncomfortable when all the stalls are occupied and I have to wait. Unfortunately, I can't say that I feel strongly enough about it to deal with the awkwardness of discussing this with my mother. I can think of convoluted ways around this, but not without leaving a paper trail and risking uncomfortable questions anyways. Strangely enough, I might have bottom surgery done before I even have true financial independence, so it could end up a moot point by then.

[butterflydreams]

3 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

She went on to tell me that I needed to correct people every single time it happens, chiding me because I didn't say anything the last few times I've been misgendered. 

Hehe, your mom would lose her mind if she hung out with me for a day. It's always non-malicious, heck, even my best friend this weekend slipped (we'd been drinking and were with friends, so who cares). But people misgender me all the time. It happens, and I never say anything . I'm like you I think, I can't say anything. The lesser evil to me is to just move on, and not think about it. Putting up a stink just draws unwanted attention I guess is how I feel.

 

re: your spoiler

I'm not sure if it would work with a mom, but seeing as it's an awkward kind of thing, maybe my method would work? I've had 1-2 people ask me about surgery. Genuine curiosity, I'm not particularly offended by that. With any of that stuff though, I take the attitude that, "this is going to be way worse for you than it will be for me...so...buckle up." And I just start talking way more than they probably wanted to know.

 

Is it possible too that it's harder to talk to your mom because there isn't that a kind of mother-daughter bond there? Could you talk to your dad or maybe even your brother about it instead? That is something I've noticed. Even though I'm very open with friends and family, it's so much easier to talk to my female friend about certain stuff than my male friend, or my brother. 

[Mezzo Forte]

1 hour ago, Hadley167 said:

Putting up a stink just draws unwanted attention I guess is how I feel.

And that's exactly why I don't tend to make a scene about getting misgendered. I can't stand that kind of attention. I correct friends when I know that they'd want me to, but for strangers? Why bother if I'm never going to see them again?

 

And re: spoiler stuff.

It's actually more awkward for me to talk about this stuff than it is for my mom to hear it. She once asked me how phalloplasty works and I barely covered donor sites before I felt too uncomfortable to continue. Something about that part of the body just feels weird to talk about with family. (I'm definitely more comfortable talking about this with guy friends, but the paper trail is still an issue.) My mom controls the finances, so there's no avoiding her even if I went to my other family members. Can't say that there's a lot of options beyond either talking to my mom or just not buying the thing, unfortuantely.

[April_ONeil]

The only thing I've ever heard in my own life is, "so...... are you a boy or a girl, then?" And I tried to explain that I'm neither and they just got more confused, and I was just like, "forget it." 

 

I don't tend to have to deal with cis people saying annoying/not-nice things to me, because I just play female around everyone. I'm biologically female, and it's easy enough to do, so I just present myself that way and no one's the wiser. 

 

I did once have a cis guy say something about not understanding any gender identity other than cis and trans while specifically using agender as an example of what he thought was impossible, and then he said "of course, I don't know any of them, so I can't ask." And I thought to myself "yeah you do, but if I told you you'd probably stop talking to me." 

[butterflydreams]

Quote

No TRUE homosexual man will be romantic or sleep with a trans man because what he would be doing by doing that is engaging in a heterosexual activity, being intimate with a biological female.

Oh, look at that. That's nice. /s

[ChillaKilla]

37 minutes ago, Hadley167 said:

Oh, look at that. That's nice. /s

Who even said that?!

[butterflydreams]

18 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

Who even said that?!

http://archive.is/Pb1AJ

[Mezzo Forte]

^ I swear, by now, I should be so much more jaded by the infighting within LGBT circles, but transphobic attitudes seem to sting so much more when they come from the gay community. I'll never forget the negative impact of discovering that TERF site where the lesbian founder was convinced that FtM transition was a conspiracy to rid the world of lesbians by poisoning them with testosterone. I've also heard horror stories about gay transmen trying to navigate an uncomfortably phallocentric dating scene. (The words "Two-holed freak" were more common than they really should have been.) Stuff like this is probably why I was expecting so many more negative reactions than I actually got when I came out.

[SpaceCaptain]

"But you'd look so good in [very feminine article of clothing]!"

I didn't even realize until a few years ago that there were nice clothes that would make me still feel like myself...Hooray for collared button-downs.

 

Also if I refer to myself in conversation with a title that's typically masculine, i.e., "I'm the king of X!" and I get corrected, "the QUEEN of X." Bro just let me be a king if I'm feeling it okay.

 

I know these are pretty minor compared to the other stuff on here, and to be fair I do present as a bit of a tomboy so there's no tip-off that I don't identify on the binary, but it still bugs me the way people assume these things. If it does come up that I don't identify as female, people usually ask if I identify as male. I wish more people understood that that wasn't the only option.

[butterflydreams]

10 hours ago, Mezzo Forte said:

^ I swear, by now, I should be so much more jaded by the infighting within LGBT circles, but transphobic attitudes seem to sting so much more when they come from the gay community. I'll never forget the negative impact of discovering that TERF site where the lesbian founder was convinced that FtM transition was a conspiracy to rid the world of lesbians by poisoning them with testosterone. I've also heard horror stories about gay transmen trying to navigate an uncomfortably phallocentric dating scene. (The words "Two-holed freak" were more common than they really should have been.) Stuff like this is probably why I was expecting so many more negative reactions than I actually got when I came out.

Pretty much...*hugs*

 

It sucks that it's the case, but this stuff makes me extremely leery of the LGB community and feminist communities. I think it should sting more when you see stuff like this in the gay community. This person didn't have many good things to say about trans women either. We're more aggressive about forcing lesbians to sleep with us, didn't you hear?

 

I do not envy gay trans men one bit. The LGB community has a (deserved or not) reputation for being pretty sexually charged. That can make things very difficult for trans people, and of course, asexual people.

 

I feel extremely fortunate that I'm mostly straight, and don't have to deal with these issues. Of course, I have my own issues to contend with regarding dating straight men.

 

Honestly, it all boils down to the same complete lack of empathy for how trans people are. All of it. No one is forcing gay men to sleep with trans men. But to say "eww, I like dick, not vagina" totally misses the point of the situation. You think he feels ok about that? You think I feel ok about having a penis? You think I want to use it? I can't get over this total lack of understanding. And I'll say it here like I've said to close trusted friends: If it's ever revealed that I used my penis in a penetrating way, or if it's revealed that someone put their mouth on me down there...call the police, because it was not consensual.

[Mezzo Forte]

6 minutes ago, Hadley167 said:

Honestly, it all boils down to the same complete lack of empathy for how trans people are. All of it. No one is forcing gay men to sleep with trans men. But to say "eww, I like dick, not vagina" totally misses the point of the situation. You think he feels ok about that? You think I feel ok about having a penis? You think I want to use it? I can't get over this total lack of understanding. And I'll say it here like I've said to close trusted friends: If it's ever revealed that I used my penis in a penetrating way, or if it's revealed that someone put their mouth on me down there...call the police, because it was not consensual.

You're so right about this. It seems like some people throw their decency out the window in sexually charged situations, taking what could be a "I'm not sure I can work with this" into disgusting commentary equating the parts we're dysphoric about with "not a real man/woman" sentiments. I doubt they even realize the dysphoria they spark. 

 

(You could probably say something similar about me in the inverse situation. While I'm not interested in penetration in general, any form of of receiving is a giant "fuck no" from me. Especially from the front. My brain does not register that it even exists, and based on a gyno exam I had last year, I am better off continuing to pretend that it doesn't exist.)

 

Most LGB circles seem chill enough IRL with me, but I also don't engage the dating sphere, so maybe that makes me easier to digest. The one thing that bugs me though is when people say "I understand what you're going through because I'm gay." Most of the time I heard that, it was from people being dismissive of my transition-related worries. There's a great irony in the fact that someone can basically say "I empathize with you" as a way of demonstrating a complete lack of empathy for your situation.

[ChillaKilla]

Speaking of complete lack of empathy from LGB people, I've had my run-ins with those types too. The most prominent example I can think of was an "LGBTQ" (that somehow managed to only revolve around the first three letters) group at church. I went with a friend, got a name tag, wrote name and pronouns on it, and still managed to be referred to with my friend as "ladies" multiple times in about 20 minutes. They made negative effort. Like, they looked at my name tag and just decided ignoring it would be easier I suppose?

 

Not gonna lie, I had low expectations to begin with. I was fully prepared for older, cis white lesbian nonsense. And that's what I got.

[butterflydreams]

30 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

You're so right about this. It seems like some people throw their decency out the window in sexually charged situations, taking what could be a "I'm not sure I can work with this" into disgusting commentary equating the parts we're dysphoric about with "not a real man/woman" sentiments. I doubt they even realize the dysphoria they spark. 

Perfectly said! And your description of dysphoria as it relates to sexuality resonates with me as well. Heck, even my cis female friend understood after I explained to her. She asked, "ok, but you could be sexually intimate somehow, right?" Of course! I have no problem with that at all, and I have no problem trying and figuring out what I can and can't do. But I do need to be mindful of dysphoria. She completely understood what I was saying and didn't think it would be a problem.

 

33 minutes ago, Mezzo Forte said:

Most LGB circles seem chill enough IRL with me, but I also don't engage the dating sphere, so maybe that makes me easier to digest.

Could be. Not dating at all certainly isn't going to put you in a position to catch the bulk of the flak with these things.

 

13 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

Not gonna lie, I had low expectations to begin with. I was fully prepared for older, cis white lesbian nonsense. And that's what I got.

Does it make me a terrible person that this is the reason I avoid most LGBT stuff near me? It's basically all L and nothing else. And yeah, growing up in a very L-centric area, they can collectively be extremely off-putting. This is why I really don't like the recent wave of infighting that seems to be trying to push gay men out of these circles. As long as it doesn't get too sexual, I have a lot more in common with your average gay man than lesbian women.

[ChillaKilla]

@Hadley167 If it makes you terrible then I must be guilty as well because I'm of the exact same opinion. Let's not forget that TERFs spawned out of the L too...

[Guest]

I'd prefer trans groups to lgbt groups probably

I have no experience with either so far because of my anxiety preventing me from participating in offline things...

[butterflydreams]

21 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

@Hadley167 If it makes you terrible then I must be guilty as well because I'm of the exact same opinion. Let's not forget that TERFs spawned out of the L too...

I'm certainly not disparaging them, and god knows gay men can be just as bad sometimes, as evidenced by that article. It's just so frustrating when they seem to be taking over these spaces that should be for everyone. Maybe gay men do the same thing, I don't really know. All I know is that all the LGBT things I've gone to have been aging lesbians.

 

I just remember getting slammed so many times by lesbians who saw me as a man and therefore worthy of their contempt? Who knows. But it's a good lesson to never judge someone by their how they present. Never judge all men, never judge all women, or anybody, because you don't know what they're hiding under the surface. And your judgement may cut deeper than you could possibly know.

[Guest]

I've seen more often LGBT being used and just being for only gay men

It goes against the stereotypes I've known to hear that lesbians can take over LGBT spaces.

 

I've seen like that people say they support LGBT rights, but they don't actually mean the "T" part 

[Guest]

I work in a LGBT+ enviroment and i gotta say my co workers are the worst example when it comes to singling out others especially the males.

 

I never felt a part of the LGB community because of these things.

[Mezzo Forte]

@Hadley167, The worst of transphobia has a way of tying to the dating scene, doesn't it? Even when it's not about sex, I think the people who react poorly make it about sex. It makes my opting out sound more strategic than it actually is. 

 

In fact, come to think of it, a lot of people (primarily women) get significantly more personal with me about their experiences with sexuality just from me coming out as trans, so maybe that's just where the mind goes in these situations. People tend to get a lot more curious about my sexuality once they know I'm trans too, but who knows if that just gives them a convenient segue or if it actually begs the question.

 

26 minutes ago, Mystic Maya said:

I've seen like that people say they support LGBT rights, but they don't actually mean the "T" part 

When I explain these politics, I just tell them that to most people, the T is silent.

 

I once found myself speaking out at a diversity panel in the percussion world, and they just lumped my experience under "LGBT issues" in a way that felt really dismissive. The only thing the panel seemed to care about was getting more women into percussion, so I guess helping transmen doesn't help their cause.