Finding a middle ground in relationships

[Rainbow~Sprinkles]

I'm realising that one of the hardest parts in relationships, is overcoming differences. Some of these differences might be different world views, different expectations of gender roles, different ideas about raising children, handling money, etc. However one of the hardest differences to overcome in relationships is different needs of the two partners.

For example, I find it easy to open up emotionally to a potential partner. I'm a very emotionally open person. In relationships, I will give them my all emotionally, helping with any insecurities or personal struggles they have, offering supportive words and friendly advice. However I need more time to develop trust and commitment with a partner before I will feel comfortable being physically intimate. Even holding hands publicly for me, would not happen until perhaps one-two months into the relationship. When I feel comfortable with them and sharing to the world that we are dating.

Now as an example, perhaps my partner is the kind to want physical intimacy first, and develop emotional intimacy afterwards.

How do you find a middle ground between two people who have very contrasting needs?

[Taiji]

I think my partner and I fit this kind of dynamic. I'm the person who needs time to be physically intimate, while he can be physically intimate quickly while letting the emotions develop as they go.

Finding the middle ground can be difficult, especially in terms of physical intimacy. Usually, the best way is being understanding and communicating these needs clearly to each other. I'm grateful that my boyfriend is understanding in the beginning stages, where he gets that it can take a while for me to be comfortable with him. I expressed what I'm comfortable with, what I wasn't yet comfortable with, and such to him often. He would help me figure out why I'm uncomfortable with some things, and I was willing to become more comfortable with him.

The right pace isn't easy to find... sometimes it's too fast for you, and it might be getting slow to your partner. But I think if you're BOTH willing to be with each other, then you're likely to be willing to wait until the other is more comfortable.

It is indeed a hard difference to overcome. Some people are not willing to compromise on certain things in a relationship, and that's normal and not wrong. I would call it a "baseline" difference. If your baseline with someone is too great, then you cannot find a middle ground no matter how hard you try (ie. sexual person who desires sex with a sex-repulsed person... very tough to overcome, if possible). However, if you were with someone who isn't as drastically different, then you have a better chance of finding that middle ground.

So really, I'd say the answer to finding the middle ground is finding someone who CAN be compatible with your differences, then working your way towards a relationship that makes both of you happy.

[Velma]

Things were rough for my husband until I figured out nonphysical alternatives to show affection. I always make a point to do one thing a week that he doesn't ask for but would like me to do. I go out of my way to tell him how lucky I am to be with him. I tell him how he's a great dad. I compliment him frequently.

Gradually, he started "needing" sex less often. He does expect it now and then, but I think before he met me, sex was the only way for him to feel special and appreciated by a woman. So he wanted it for the emotional intimacy as well as the sexual gratification. Since I keep his emotional needs satisfied, he is asking for sex less and less these days. YET he seems much happier and we seem closer than ever.

[Rainbow~Sprinkles]

Things were rough for my husband until I figured out nonphysical alternatives to show affection. I always make a point to do one thing a week that he doesn't ask for but would like me to do. I go out of my way to tell him how lucky I am to be with him. I tell him how he's a great dad. I compliment him frequently.

Gradually, he started "needing" sex less often. He does expect it now and then, but I think before he met me, sex was the only way for him to feel special and appreciated by a woman. So he wanted it for the emotional intimacy as well as the sexual gratification. Since I keep his emotional needs satisfied, he is asking for sex less and less these days. YET he seems much happier and we seem closer than ever.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of non-physical alternatives did you consider?

[Telecaster68]

Things were rough for my husband until I figured out nonphysical alternatives to show affection.

As another husband who's been in this position, here's how it worked for me. Not so much non-physical, as non-sexual. I don't think entirely non-physical alternatives would've worked for me.

Being persistently turned down sexually feels like being told 'you repulse me as a person', because in the 99% of relationships that are sexual, that's what generally does mean, and more often than not, it's indicative of some deep problems in the relationship. That's why we get so anxious and hurt. And then our partners are saying 'no, I love you, I find you attractive, I just don't ever want sex', which to sexual minds is completely contradictory: if you found us attractive, you'd want to have sex with us, at some point, because that's how 99% of people work. So you must be covering up something, so what is it? Resentment? Not loving us any more? An affair? That's what we get stressed about more than the lack of the act itself, or orgasms.

Non sexual physical affection is a demonstration that you don't find us repulsive, you are attracted to us, and actions are more convincing that words - that's just how humans are. So for me at least, I could start to accept that nothing deeper was wrong, there was no affair, etc., and then because of that, I gradually needed the re-assurance that comes from sex less and it was easier to back off.

I'd still have liked more sex though. It just made the compromise less hard.

[The Stranger]

How do you find a middle ground between two people who have very contrasting needs?

Bounce from hill to hill sometimes. You do something nice for me, I do something nice for you. Even if it's just 20min of effort in 2days it's better than nothing. If both sides go only for middle ground I think it will become too bland and not satisfying for either.

I'm speaking in general because I'm not someone who thinks of intimacy first and emotions next; intimacy is a desire born from liking someone enough to be intimate. If I don't like someone I'm not gonna want to be intimate. And if I like someone intimacy is there to deepen that liking or simply to bring enjoyment.

[Velma]

I mentioned the alternatives in my first post. I do him constant little favors and compliments. I make a point to go out of my way to show that I care and appreciate him. And I don't just do it, I mention it to him to make sure he knows that it's not a coincidence that I dif these things. I don't rub it in or demand praise, I just point out what I did and why I did it. He gets thrilled.

If you need specific examples:

His job is to take out the trash. I try to do it before he gets a chance to. Especially when the weather sucks.

I hate fish. I'll make fish for supper and eat grilled cheese instead. It is a double bonus because he hates grilled cheese and I love it. Good excuse to make it.

I'll tell him why some action he just did proves to me that he's a good husband

I'll offer to do his evening chores so he can veg out and play video games all night (not very often! Because I want to do this too)

It works.

[Telecaster68]

Yeah, my wife does similar things, and I do stuff like that for her too. It's not exactly a quid pro quo for sex, it works as I described above.

[Guest]

Yeah, being a nice partner doesn't, like, make up for lack of sex, given that we expect our partners to be nice anyway.

[Tarfeather]

Bit of anecdotal experience from my own relationship: Things work out best, when you try to make them work out least. Neither of you has any obligations to the other. Just do what you *want* to do for the other, without expecting anything in return, and when you find yourself disappointed in the lack of things the other does for you, try to deal with it yourself (I have to thank Mysticus for going into some detail about that lately).

So in your example, you just tell the other that you don't want physical intimacy (you can explain the circumstances if you wish), and that's pretty much that. There's no way you can make them be okay with it, that's up to them.

[Telecaster68]

So basically your relationship with your partner is identical to your relationship with any random person on the street, for whom you also make no concessions, effort or expectations.

[Starlit Sky]

The key is to find someone who is capable of meeting YOUR needs. That's it. Right there. You absolutely must find someone who is willing to meet your needs. If they are absolutely uncomfortable with the notion of waiting a few months before being physically intimate (and I don't mean sexually), and that is a no-go for them, then there is only so much compromise to be done. If you are going to compromise, then ONLY do so to the point where you are still comfortable with the situation. Going out of your way to make the other person comfortable, while at the same time stepping too far out of your comfort zone, will only harm the relationship.

You see, there's a problem with your question, and it's the two contrasting needs part. If it wasn't a need but rather a preference then it wouldn't be so bad, but it is a need, and if one person needs one thing and you need another then it's not going to work. I know I need a guy who practices chivalry (am I too old-fashioned? sue me XD), and if a dude who is otherwise a nice guy just isn't into that, well, it ain't gonna work. Period. I've recently realized that I am completely unable to develop romantic feelings for guys who don't do the whole "chivalry thing," so when I say it's not going to work I'm not being stuck up, I'm being quite literal.

I do see something that might help you, BUT there's a good chance I simply don't have all the facts and I am assuming a good deal. You say, "However I need more time to develop trust and commitment with a partner before I will feel comfortable being physically intimate." If this is the case, then why are you their partner in the first place? You can date someone without being their partner, and I strongly encourage you to date for a good while--that is, I encourage you to develop trust and commitment--before entering into a committed relationship, thus being a partner! If I am right in believing that you're jumping into an exclusive relationship a little too quickly, then this could solve your problem.

[Rainbow~Sprinkles]

I do see something that might help you, BUT there's a good chance I simply don't have all the facts and I am assuming a good deal. You say, "However I need more time to develop trust and commitment with a partner before I will feel comfortable being physically intimate." If this is the case, then why are you their partner in the first place? You can date someone without being their partner, and I strongly encourage you to date for a good while--that is, I encourage you to develop trust and commitment--before entering into a committed relationship, thus being a partner! If I am right in believing that you're jumping into an exclusive relationship a little too quickly, then this could solve your problem.

Thank you for your response, I found that really helpful. With the jumping into exclusive relationships part, I'll be honest, I'd rather date for awhile first. However the guys I have dated have wanted to be friends for 2 weeks, date for 2-3 weeks and then go straight to the relationship part. Which I don't feel comfortable with. And the moment we've decided to be partners, is when they have started wanting to hold hands and put their arms around me and such. Which I'm not comfortable with. For a long while I thought that I was the problem because every guy I dated wanted it this way. Perhaps I just have a different dating style.

[Starlit Sky]

I do see something that might help you, BUT there's a good chance I simply don't have all the facts and I am assuming a good deal. You say, "However I need more time to develop trust and commitment with a partner before I will feel comfortable being physically intimate." If this is the case, then why are you their partner in the first place? You can date someone without being their partner, and I strongly encourage you to date for a good while--that is, I encourage you to develop trust and commitment--before entering into a committed relationship, thus being a partner! If I am right in believing that you're jumping into an exclusive relationship a little too quickly, then this could solve your problem.

Thank you for your response, I found that really helpful. With the jumping into exclusive relationships part, I'll be honest, I'd rather date for awhile first. However the guys I have dated have wanted to be friends for 2 weeks, date for 2-3 weeks and then go straight to the relationship part. Which I don't feel comfortable with. And the moment we've decided to be partners, is when they have started wanting to hold hands and put their arms around me and such. Which I'm not comfortable with. For a long while I thought that I was the problem because every guy I dated wanted it this way. Perhaps I just have a different dating style.

Yep, that's exactly how I am too--wanting to date for awhile, I mean. Like you I am also very emotionally open, but I've found that this has created a problem . . . the more open you are, the more they seem to trust you (which makes sense), and then many times they want to go ahead and hop on into the relationship--"Oh, come on, let's give it a go. . . ." No, let's not haha Honestly, even if I've sort of labeled them as a "romantic interest" in my mind, I have to be completely confident in they're not-a-jerkiness to feel comfortable making a commitment.

Anywho, you are DEFINITELY not the problem, and you are right to say that you have a different dating style. It's not a bad thing! In fact, I would say there are way more benefits to waiting to really getting to know a person before jumping in in the dating field, but that really is just a personal opinion (though, if you're interested, here's an article--from the male perspective--of why courtship is better than diving on in). Before you become exclusive, do you ever have the "what we want in a partner" talk? It's my personal philosophy to make sure that that happens, that way I can weed out people I wouldn't really want to date. If you've never had it before (or if you have, but you've just never talked about your need to keep things slow), then I suggest trying to bring up the subject. Good, decent guys want to know what is going to make you happy in a relationship, and good, decent guys are going to respect your need to wait.

(At the same time, if they can't stick around then that means they were really only in it for sex, even if it was a subconscious thing--I'm sure I can find the link to the article on that, too.)

[Rainbow~Sprinkles]

. Before you become exclusive, do you ever have the "what we want in a partner" talk? It's my personal philosophy to make sure that that happens, that way I can weed out people I wouldn't really want to date. If you've never had it before (or if you have, but you've just never talked about your need to keep things slow), then I suggest trying to bring up the subject. Good, decent guys want to know what is going to make you happy in a relationship, and good, decent guys are going to respect your need to wait

Logically, I always thought that's what partners do. I guess because I'm still young however (20 yrs old), many people my age still don't know what they want/need in a relationship and tend to just jump in. So that conversation doesn't usually happen. I have thought about bringing it up but I wasn't sure how to approach it. And then I've left it too late and they are asking me to be officially in a relationship with them. I don't know what to say. Everything in me is saying give it more time, I need to think about it more, I need to Know this person more before I can give an accurate answer to that question. But instead I end up just going with it against my better judgement. And for a long time, I've felt insecure because I dont' feel primary attraction. However I believe i may have experienced the very beginning's of secondary attraction, I'm just not sure so I still identify as asexual for now because I only realised this recently. So because of that, my friends who do experience primary attraction or are just more experienced take a very different approach to me and let things fall in to place naturally. And even though I know that conversation needs to happen and that I need to take things more slowly and want to approach things more maturely. I've been met with potential partners thinking that I'm strange because of it or thought I was taking control by bringing these things up. ( A lot of guys I dated had insecurity issues, I'm a completely pushover at the best of times).

[Starlit Sky]

. Before you become exclusive, do you ever have the "what we want in a partner" talk? It's my personal philosophy to make sure that that happens, that way I can weed out people I wouldn't really want to date. If you've never had it before (or if you have, but you've just never talked about your need to keep things slow), then I suggest trying to bring up the subject. Good, decent guys want to know what is going to make you happy in a relationship, and good, decent guys are going to respect your need to wait

Logically, I always thought that's what partners do. I guess because I'm still young however (20 yrs old), many people my age still don't know what they want/need in a relationship and tend to just jump in. So that conversation doesn't usually happen. I have thought about bringing it up but I wasn't sure how to approach it. And then I've left it too late and they are asking me to be officially in a relationship with them. I don't know what to say. Everything in me is saying give it more time, I need to think about it more, I need to Know this person more before I can give an accurate answer to that question. But instead I end up just going with it against my better judgement. And for a long time, I've felt insecure because I dont' feel primary attraction. However I believe i may have experienced the very beginning's of secondary attraction, I'm just not sure so I still identify as asexual for now because I only realised this recently. So because of that, my friends who do experience primary attraction or are just more experienced take a very different approach to me and let things fall in to place naturally. And even though I know that conversation needs to happen and that I need to take things more slowly and want to approach things more maturely. I've been met with potential partners thinking that I'm strange because of it or thought I was taking control by bringing these things up. ( A lot of guys I dated had insecurity issues, I'm a completely pushover at the best of times).

Oh, we're always changing and learning new things about ourselves . . . I'm eighteen and I like to think that I've got a pretty decent idea of what I want in a relationship. Of course, some people aren't sure until they're forty or fifty or older. It sounds to me like you've got a good idea of what you want, and you're not wanting a short fling, but you feel relatively uninspired to have a longer relationship with any of these guys because they want to rush into it so fast. Is that about right?

Well, I bet whether or not you come off as controlling probably depends on how you ask the question. Usually after a little while of talking "romantically" (say, the second or third date), I ask, "So, what do you find essential in a partner?" And they tell me. The guy I'm currently talking to said that he needs to be able to trust his partner, and that he wants to be the tall one. He didn't think it was weird or anything when I phrased it like that, and neither have any of the guys before him I've asked that question to. :) Perhaps you can try it that way! Really, just treat it as it's another discussion topic--which it is, really. I think that'd work well for you. ^_^

(Unfortunately I know nothing at all about primary/secondary attraction, but I'll look that up later . . . right now it's nearly six in the morning and I haven't gone to sleep, whoops haha)

[Velma]

You would expect partners to be nice to each other, but many are not. A good deal of partners are only nice when they expect something back in return and they resent it if they don't always or usually have their "niceness" reciprocated. Many many people have hang ups and emotional baggage that keeps them from fully expressing themselves.

Haven't you watched television or a movie with married people at least once in your life? Haven't you ever heard someone complain that their partner doesn't love them and it turns out that the partner loves the person, but they suck at expressing it? That's reality right there.

Just like being sensual is more than just a hug, expressing love and devotion is more than just being nice. Humans have a much wider range of experiencing emotion and affection than you seem to think.

[Tarfeather]

Logically, I always thought that's what partners do. I guess because I'm still young however (20 yrs old), many people my age still don't know what they want/need in a relationship and tend to just jump in. So that conversation doesn't usually happen. I have thought about bringing it up but I wasn't sure how to approach it. And then I've left it too late and they are asking me to be officially in a relationship with them. I don't know what to say. Everything in me is saying give it more time, I need to think about it more, I need to Know this person more before I can give an accurate answer to that question. But instead I end up just going with it against my better judgement. And for a long time, I've felt insecure because I dont' feel primary attraction. However I believe i may have experienced the very beginning's of secondary attraction, I'm just not sure so I still identify as asexual for now because I only realised this recently. So because of that, my friends who do experience primary attraction or are just more experienced take a very different approach to me and let things fall in to place naturally. And even though I know that conversation needs to happen and that I need to take things more slowly and want to approach things more maturely. I've been met with potential partners thinking that I'm strange because of it or thought I was taking control by bringing these things up. ( A lot of guys I dated had insecurity issues, I'm a completely pushover at the best of times).

Hmmm..? What did they say, exactly? The way you say it makes it sound like they're calling you out for "being strange" or "taking control" when all you're doing is stating your needs and boundaries. That would be a huge warning sign to me.

I'm the first person my girlfriend hugged in her life, and she needed a long time after having been in a relationship to be able to do so, and it was a very formal, very verbal process when we first did hug. Did I consider her strange? Did I think her controlling for making such a huge deal out of a simple hug? Hell, no! I was honored that, with physical contact being such a huge issue for her, she would share something with me that was so important to her.

Also, I'm a counter-example to your insecurity explanation of these people's behaviour, as I'm probably the most insecure person on this planet, constantly questioning my own worth as a human being because I'm a virgin. But I still don't let that make me think that any partner would *owe* me anything in terms of physical intimacy.

If someone doesn't respect your wishes and individuality in this regard, I would be very careful about having a relationship with them.

[The Stranger]

Bit of anecdotal experience from my own relationship: Things work out best, when you try to make them work out least. Neither of you has any obligations to the other. Just do what you *want* to do for the other, without expecting anything in return, and when you find yourself disappointed in the lack of things the other does for you, try to deal with it yourself

That's absolutely terrible. When your girlfriend/wife is ill you take care of her instead of "I'm just gonna go out with friends and drink beer, you deal with it yourself". Or if your significant other is in a bad mood you try to fix it, instead of "Not my problem." And when wife complains that you're beating her, your respond is "I have no obligation being nice to you". I mean, really?

I have to admit, I've been in various forums and never seen the worse treatment/advices than here. The amount of selfishness is astounding. Just look how many people liked that post of yours which basically is a celebration of extreme selfishness and carelessness. And then everyone will say asexuality has no correlation with anything else but just think about it - sex is a force of unity. Selfishness and carelessness is as far from unity/sex as you can get.

And don't tell me you ended up in a relationship because you didn't expect anything.

[Velma]

I think Tarfeather meant not to do things that you'll end up resenting later. Also not to expect tit-for-tat. You do things because you want to, not because you're expecting something in return.

If I read it right, it's fairly sound and reasonable advice.

[Sally]

I have to admit, I've been in various forums and never seen the worse treatment/advices than here. The amount of selfishness is astounding. Just look how many people liked that post of yours which basically is a celebration of extreme selfishness and carelessness. .

Being on AVEN is entirely your choice.

[Taiji]

Pretty sure Tarfeather did not mean that at all. The way I interpreted it was: don't force yourself to make things work by trying to do things to please people but make you unhappy. Rainbow was concerned about the pacing of the relationship and what she is comfortable with - she is no way obligated to her partner to speed things up to make them comfortable while she sacrifices her own needs. However, if she wants to, she's absolutely free to speed things up when she's comfortable enough with a partner. I think Tar meant if she did do that and she's disappointed that her partner doesn't do something in return, she should try to handle the disappointment herself. (But correct me if I'm wrong with this interpretation.) When you're in a relationship, the things you do for your partner, you should not expect some favor in return.

This is far from being selfish, careless, and being a complete ass to someone. No one is saying to ignore your partner's needs and health - being concerned about intimacy is not within the same ballpark as being concerned about someone's health.

[Telecaster68]

"I think Tarfeather meant not to do things that you'll end up resenting later."

If Tar's referring to his conversation with Mysticus (who views any kind of expectation within a relationship manipulative, entitled and coercive) then Stranger's characterisation is pretty accurate. Basically, any thought that relationships might have expectations attached - on both sides - is unjustified and foolish.

I don't see how any relationship with anyone is actually possible without expectations.

[The Stranger]

I am pretty sure he meant it because the general theme shared by many here is "only do what you want, neglect the partner in everything else because you have no obligation".

To which my advice to the neglected side is: divorce/breakup and let the selfish person live alone with 30 cats.

[Velma]

Well, bleagh! That sucks.

Any way telecaster gets what I'm saying. Also, he seems to understand why the special attention does help a lot, but sex now and then isn't so bad. If I were repulsed, then yes it would be too much. But to me, it's not so bad every now and then.

I just think he's been needing it less because he used to require it for a feeling of validation and acceptance. Now he only asks when he's really in the mood. And that's different. Then it's just another special favor to grant now and then.

[Starlit Sky]

I am pretty sure he meant it because the general theme shared by many here is "only do what you want, neglect the partner in everything else because you have no obligation".

To which my advice to the neglected side is: divorce/breakup and let the selfish person live alone with 30 cats.

There are very few people here who would advocate neglecting a partner. I know I wouldn't. You are very willing to lump everyone together. . . . I apologize if you have to deal with someone in real life who doesn't agree with what you say is the force of unity. Unless someone is holding a gun to your head--in which case, they're seriously fucked up--you don't have to be here, if we are all so terrible to be around.

I don't know what your situation is or why you're here, but I know that there aren't many asexuals here who view sex as fun. When they do have sex, then that's a fucking accomplishment. Instead of calling them--whether they're online or not--selfish and mean and whatever other negative thing you want to say, how about try to appreciate the fact that they're at least trying? There are some aces here who don't have a problem with having sex, but that's not the case for probably more than half. I get that it's not ideal for you and I get that this would never make you happy and I understand that you would much rather have the normal amount of sex. I understand that it is frustrating, if you aren't getting what you want, but hell if you don't think it's frustrating for us, too, then you don't truly get our side. If you want to call me selfish for not being able to bring myself to have sex with the people that I love then quite frankly you are wrong.

[Sally]

I am pretty sure he meant it because the general theme shared by many here is "only do what you want, neglect the partner in everything else because you have no obligation".

To which my advice to the neglected side is: divorce/breakup and let the selfish person live alone with 30 cats.

There's a word that starts with "t" and it's beginning to sound as though you fit the description. A "white male" who wants to "be pleasured" by a girl and makes nasty comments about asexuals -- hmm, wonder why he's on AVEN?

[Velma]

I looked back. I don't see eye to eye with Tarfeather on everything, but I think he's being unfairly demonized here. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but it just didn't read like that to me.

[Starlit Sky]

I am pretty sure he meant it because the general theme shared by many here is "only do what you want, neglect the partner in everything else because you have no obligation".

To which my advice to the neglected side is: divorce/breakup and let the selfish person live alone with 30 cats.

There's a word that starts with "t" and it's beginning to sound as though you fit the description. A "white male" who wants to "be pleasured" by a girl and makes nasty comments about asexuals -- hmm, wonder why he's on AVEN?

Oh look, someone else is a bit suspicious about that! :D

[Tarfeather]

That's absolutely terrible. When your girlfriend/wife is ill you take care of her instead of "I'm just gonna go out with friends and drink beer, you deal with it yourself". Or if your significant other is in a bad mood you try to fix it, instead of "Not my problem." And when wife complains that you're beating her, your respond is "I have no obligation being nice to you". I mean, really?

I have to admit, I've been in various forums and never seen the worse treatment/advices than here. The amount of selfishness is astounding. Just look how many people liked that post of yours which basically is a celebration of extreme selfishness and carelessness. And then everyone will say asexuality has no correlation with anything else but just think about it - sex is a force of unity. Selfishness and carelessness is as far from unity/sex as you can get.

And don't tell me you ended up in a relationship because you didn't expect anything.

I am pretty sure he meant it because the general theme shared by many here is "only do what you want, neglect the partner in everything else because you have no obligation".

To which my advice to the neglected side is: divorce/breakup and let the selfish person live alone with 30 cats.

The only thing that's terrible here is your illegitimization of people who prefer less dependent relationships. If you wouldn't be with a person who prefers not being dependent on you, that's up to you. I truly feel sorry for you, if you can not understand that someone else might actually love such a person, and try to do their best to make that person happy.