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Aporagender and other genders


Wallflowerbaby13

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ItWasNiceKnowingYou

I'm sorry if I'm interrupting topics/conversation and i don't want to seem dense....but does anyone here feel gender dysphoria (particularly maveriques but anyone can answer) that goes beyond not wanting whichever reproductive parts? As if you even being in a body feels wrong because of how you define your gender or sex (if you prefer your outsides to represent how you feel on the inside)?

I just thought it was an interesting question

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Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. I think, "genderfluid" is a rather broad term that fit for people with different types of gender switches, if it doesn't fit you, maybe, someone could suggest something better.

I know I don't ever feel "fluid." A die isn't fluid. Or to say it another way, since everyone's going for mirror analogies these days, my gender feels like a broken mirror. Those edges are sharp enough to draw blood.

There isn't "one image," or one thing that changes back and forth. There are discontinuous pieces. Depending on the angle at which I'm standing, I'm a this, or I'm a that, but I've always been that thing.

"Gender discontinuous" doesn't have a ring to it. :)

How about multigender? I've never seen that used on AVEN, but I've seen it used on other parts of the internet as an extension of bigender for more than two genders. It doesn't say anything about whether the gender is an internal or external thing, but it does address the lack of fluidity in your gender, and makes it sound more like discreet genders that are separate instead of a fluid-like flow between grey areas. I think it would fit with your die analogy better; there are, for example, six discreet sides or genders, but never "in between" states.

Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. I honestly don't know the answer to how to express that your gender is an external property rather than an intrinsic one. I'm curious to know if there exists a better term for that aspect.

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Dodecahedron314

I'm sorry if I'm interrupting topics/conversation and i don't want to seem dense....but does anyone here feel gender dysphoria (particularly maveriques but anyone can answer) that goes beyond not wanting whichever reproductive parts? As if you even being in a body feels wrong because of how you define your gender or sex (if you prefer your outsides to represent how you feel on the inside)?

I just thought it was an interesting question

Yes, I occasionally get this--I think of myself as more of a Boltzmann brain than anything else, and so it's really weird sometimes when I catch myself in a mirror and I just get this incredibly strange jolt when I realize wait a minute I physically exist and I have a face and other people can see me, how did this happen??? ...if that makes any sense.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt you. I think, "genderfluid" is a rather broad term that fit for people with different types of gender switches, if it doesn't fit you, maybe, someone could suggest something better.

I know I don't ever feel "fluid." A die isn't fluid. Or to say it another way, since everyone's going for mirror analogies these days, my gender feels like a broken mirror. Those edges are sharp enough to draw blood.

There isn't "one image," or one thing that changes back and forth. There are discontinuous pieces. Depending on the angle at which I'm standing, I'm a this, or I'm a that, but I've always been that thing.

"Gender discontinuous" doesn't have a ring to it. :)

How about multigender? I've never seen that used on AVEN, but I've seen it used on other parts of the internet as an extension of bigender for more than two genders. It doesn't say anything about whether the gender is an internal or external thing, but it does address the lack of fluidity in your gender, and makes it sound more like discreet genders that are separate instead of a fluid-like flow between grey areas. I think it would fit with your die analogy better; there are, for example, six discreet sides or genders, but never "in between" states.

Maybe that helps, maybe it doesn't. I honestly don't know the answer to how to express that your gender is an external property rather than an intrinsic one. I'm curious to know if there exists a better term for that aspect.

Er, gender itself is an internal quality, but what prompts the changes is context, at least I think that was what I was trying to say. So it's easy for me to think of gender as something that has to exist in a context, because with no context, there is no gender.

Multigender is an interesting term, and one I've run into before, but it still has one of the same problems as gender fluid (and I'm not sure this is an issue that can be resolved), namely that at no point do I ever feel like I have more than one gender, and I think some people use multigender or bigender etc. to refer to having more than one gender at the same time. So there's still potential confusion. (For example, telling someone I'm a boy, and being told back, "well, you told me you're multigender, so you're also part girl, and therefore [blah blah something they're making out to be true of me that's not].") I've found that the more I give people in my life terms that imply I'm more than one thing, the more they take that as license to "override" what I tell them is true about my gender, when it suits them in some way. ("I will never wear a feminine outfit to a family party." "But you said you're also part girl, so why can't you just be a girl for the day and wear it?"/"But you said you're also part girl, so you should be fine with wearing this, since you wear it in this other context.")

I suppose any label can be used to manipulate, but this has been my experience with terms that imply I am always "part both," and so I don't think it would help. :/

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I'm sorry if I'm interrupting topics/conversation and i don't want to seem dense....but does anyone here feel gender dysphoria (particularly maveriques but anyone can answer) that goes beyond not wanting whichever reproductive parts? As if you even being in a body feels wrong because of how you define your gender or sex (if you prefer your outsides to represent how you feel on the inside)?

I just thought it was an interesting question

Could we make it another thread? I'm also curious. I mean, I'm not sure if this is dysphoria, but I definitely can't stand being all that girly and being received as such. My life is so much better since I present as androgynous/ a tomboy :rolleyes: Such a small thing, and repairs so much...

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Er, gender itself is an internal quality, but what prompts the changes is context, at least I think that was what I was trying to say. So it's easy for me to think of gender as something that has to exist in a context, because with no context, there is no gender.

...

I suppose any label can be used to manipulate, but this has been my experience with terms that imply I am always "part both," and so I don't think it would help. :/

This is why I never go into this discussion. I tried coming out as agender some 3 years ago, but got I met total misunderstanding on the part of the friend I told it to. The conversation went like this:

"Y'know... I don't feel like a girl"

"Oh! ... Do you feel like a boy?"

"No"

"Are you a lesbian? Are you into girls?"

"No?!" :wacko:

So... Taking a look at this, I gave up early on explicit declarations, because people will always deny. The same thing happens with even less drastic declarations, say, "I don't like kids, I'm scared of kids, let's not talk about kids all the time". My statement is just ignored and the person won't stop talking to me about kids. Ever. Because I look like mommy material, supposedly, even to babies, who always stare at me and put their arms forward to hug me.

People, generally, don't like being told how to see things, they prefer to be given absolutely no reasons and ready explanations, but deduce themselves. I guess it explains why only when I started wearing more androgyous clothing, they started believing me when I say "I like heavy metal and sports". Before? Imagine someone how looks like a "plain Jane" saying that, or a sweet schoolgirl swearing heavily, while trying to fix her bike. They seemed pissed off and suspicious. :unsure: Or tried to "correct" me to fit the image of a plain Jane the schoolgirl,that they had in their heads. So seeing is believing. Literally.

Nobody asks me, I tell nobody out of my own initiative. But fortunately people finally get it right. I think that telling guys I do karate, and talking about my past fight injuries, was a major switch. I can remember they looked at each other in astonishment and then forced replacing "man" with "girl" at the end of sentence began. Strangers also openly stare at me trying to figure out, on my more andro days.

And, I think you could go with "my gender is a dice", Dash :) It seems pretty clear. To a layperson, it might even clearer than "aporagender" or other similar term, if you explain it like you always do in here :) Or is this whole discussion people trying to tell you that you don't get your own gender right, along the lines "other genders than x y and z don't exist"? I mean, I totally get what you mean, I have some gender that viewed from different perspectives shows as different things, and it's perfectly logical. Multigender also looks like a good explanation.

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Oh wow. OK. This is a very interesting discussion but I am not well versed in gender identities to the extentt of some of my more learned Avenites :) so can't really present a full example or argument apart from what I personally feel.

But I'll just say a couple of things:

First that I agree with Emery-Ripley about making that a new thread. Can we make that happen please? Has it already happened?

Secondly, thanks to Wallflowerbaby13 for the Maverique info, which I heard in turn from my friend! Whether I'm wrong or not I like Maverique because it's about identity, but then, Isn't it all? I'm already fit to having a brain meltdown with a lot of the identifiers, so Maverique feels right for me. Personally.

Lastly, "six discreet sides or genders". I like that Heart :)

*hugs*

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Wallflowerbaby13

To all those interested in Maverique, it was coined in 2014 by vesper h. Aka queer as cat. They have a blog and a YouTube channel! Might help to check those out (they seem like a really cool person!)

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Can we also please have a word for people whose gender is an external thing instead of (or at least as much as) an internal thing? It's like asking a chameleon what color they "feel like" inside. "Gender fluid" doesn't get at this "external" or contextual quality.

I don't follow this, do you have any other metaphors? :c

I'm trying to say that my gender changes with context. I usually describe it as a die -- only one side is up at any given point, but all are part of me. Usually I am agender, but sometimes one of the clear binary genders is "up." Gender shifts happen due to external, contextual cues (when I am working out, I am binary male, when I am cosplaying, I am binary female, some other things that would take much longer to describe).

I am NOT cis-genderless (as some people have misunderstood me to be saying). I actually have some level of dysphoria pretty much all the time (because of my chest, now that I've stopped my menstrual cycle), and it's sometimes very intense. I plan to have top surgery some day.

I am also absolutely NOT talking about society's "gender roles," whatever that means -- I mean that my gender itself changes with context, not a thing about what I am doing or how I am expressing it.

The term gender-fluid, however, doesn't work for me for several reasons. One, my gender states are discrete, and at no time do I EVER feel "fluid." That is what someone on the "outside" might say to describe what they see, but it is NEVER how I feel. Two, when a certain gender state is "up," is has ALWAYS been my gender -- there is no sense of "yesterday I was male" except in metacognition, wherein I remember intellectually that my gender changes (this took a very long time to figure out, because I do not feel "shifts" at all!). Third, some gender fluid people experience shifts internally without external cues, whereas mine seems to be entirely a product of context (defined broadly).

Oh wow, I relate to everything you've posted describing your gender, especially the parts I bolded. These are the exact reasons I'm hesitant to call myself genderfluid and why I feel it doesn't entirely fit me. If someone coins a term for the gender we are experiencing I'd gladly call myself that.

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Can we also please have a word for people whose gender is an external thing instead of (or at least as much as) an internal thing? It's like asking a chameleon what color they "feel like" inside. "Gender fluid" doesn't get at this "external" or contextual quality.

I don't follow this, do you have any other metaphors? :c

I'm trying to say that my gender changes with context. I usually describe it as a die -- only one side is up at any given point, but all are part of me. Usually I am agender, but sometimes one of the clear binary genders is "up." Gender shifts happen due to external, contextual cues (when I am working out, I am binary male, when I am cosplaying, I am binary female, some other things that would take much longer to describe).

I am NOT cis-genderless (as some people have misunderstood me to be saying). I actually have some level of dysphoria pretty much all the time (because of my chest, now that I've stopped my menstrual cycle), and it's sometimes very intense. I plan to have top surgery some day.

I am also absolutely NOT talking about society's "gender roles," whatever that means -- I mean that my gender itself changes with context, not a thing about what I am doing or how I am expressing it.

The term gender-fluid, however, doesn't work for me for several reasons. One, my gender states are discrete, and at no time do I EVER feel "fluid." That is what someone on the "outside" might say to describe what they see, but it is NEVER how I feel. Two, when a certain gender state is "up," is has ALWAYS been my gender -- there is no sense of "yesterday I was male" except in metacognition, wherein I remember intellectually that my gender changes (this took a very long time to figure out, because I do not feel "shifts" at all!). Third, some gender fluid people experience shifts internally without external cues, whereas mine seems to be entirely a product of context (defined broadly).

Oh wow, I relate to everything you've posted describing your gender, especially the parts I bolded. These are the exact reasons I'm hesitant to call myself genderfluid and why I feel it doesn't entirely fit me. If someone coins a term for the gender we are experiencing I'd gladly call myself tha

Wow, it's good to know that in this big wide world of gender diversity, we're not alone! /high five/

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  • 4 months later...
ItWasNiceKnowingYou

Jeeze I almost forgot about this thread :lol:

Going back over the conversations here... I realized there was still an unanswered question..... How can there be genders that exist independently of masculinity & femininity (a key component in identifying as maverique)

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I like to think of it in terms of colours. What if we only knew about red and blue as primary colours? Then we'd think the colour spectrum was 1 dimensional; it goes from red to purple to blue. There are infinite colours in there, but they are all some shade of red, purple, or blue.

But then what if we discover yellow all of a sudden. It's always been there, we just never knew about it. Suddenly there's all sorts of other colours! There are greens, oranges, even browns. That's how I try to explain the "third gender" or neutrois. It's neither masculine nor feminine, but a whole new "primary gender" if we go with the colour analogy.

I am honestly not sure where maverique fits into all that. I don't myself perfectly understand what maverique is, so I shall leave that to others to explain. However, I think that using neutrois is a good way to "escape" the idea that all genders must be made of some proportion of masculine and/or feminine, or be nothing at all.

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ChillaKilla

It's funny you say that, Heart, because if red= feminine and blue= masculine, I think I'm a pretty deep indigo :lol:

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Very interesting because I feel that my blue is not pure but mixed with something other than red...

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ChillaKilla

Maybe blue-green? ;)

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Or maybe I just reject the 'sexual part' of being a male...

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Lightning Blue Ray

I like to think of it in terms of colours. What if we only knew about red and blue as primary colours? Then we'd think the colour spectrum was 1 dimensional; it goes from red to purple to blue. There are infinite colours in there, but they are all some shade of red, purple, or blue.

But then what if we discover yellow all of a sudden. It's always been there, we just never knew about it. Suddenly there's all sorts of other colours! There are greens, oranges, even browns. That's how I try to explain the "third gender" or neutrois. It's neither masculine nor feminine, but a whole new "primary gender" if we go with the colour analogy.

I am honestly not sure where maverique fits into all that. I don't myself perfectly understand what maverique is, so I shall leave that to others to explain. However, I think that using neutrois is a good way to "escape" the idea that all genders must be made of some proportion of masculine and/or feminine, or be nothing at all.

Maybe if agender was represented by black, my color would be in between red and black, assuming red is for female, since I'm demigender.

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ChillaKilla

I don't think there's anything inherently sexual about being male, female, or any other gender. That's society talking. Gender and sexuality are way, way different.

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I don't understand, how there can be another genders and gender identities that not related to masculinity or femininity or being free of them. It's like say: "My hair colour is my gender" or "my profession is my gender". There are many identities beyond gender identities, why people want to mix them?

Well I don't know necessarily 'how' it happens but it does.

Genders or gender identities are about the words people want to use & that they believe better represents their feelings or better represents their 'gender'. Gender is about feelings and how you view yourself. So I look at it as one's physical sex may have markers but your feelings don't.

That's just my opinion :D

I've always thought gender is a kind of objective mental condition, like being extraverted/introverted, or logical/emotional, etc. One can say, for example "I'm an extraverted person", but there are psychological tests to confirm or disapprove that. As I know there are psychological tests for gender identity, too.

I don't understand, how there can be another genders and gender identities that not related to masculinity or femininity or being free of them. It's like say: "My hair colour is my gender" or "my profession is my gender". There are many identities beyond gender identities, why people want to mix them?

Well I don't know necessarily 'how' it happens but it does.

Genders or gender identities are about the words people want to use & that they believe better represents their feelings or better represents their 'gender'. Gender is about feelings and how you view yourself. So I look at it as one's physical sex may have markers but your feelings don't.

That's just my opinion :D

But still ur gender influence ur sex. Like a Transgender will try to be a transexual and a neutrois will try to be a sexless.
I think, generally speaking, it's not nesessary. Probably, most non-cis people would prefer their bodies to fit their genders, but there can be non-cis people who are absolutely OK with their bodies assigned at birth (I mean they were initially OK with them, not just "ajusted theselves"), but their gender identity is still different from their biological sex.

I don't understand, how there can be another genders and gender identities that not related to masculinity or femininity or being free of them. It's like say: "My hair colour is my gender" or "my profession is my gender". There are many identities beyond gender identities, why people want to mix them?

Well I don't know necessarily 'how' it happens but it does.

Genders or gender identities are about the words people want to use & that they believe better represents their feelings or better represents their 'gender'. Gender is about feelings and how you view yourself. So I look at it as one's physical sex may have markers but your feelings don't.

That's just my opinion :D

But still ur gender influence ur sex. Like a Transgender will try to be a transexual and a neutrois will try to be a sexless.
Not necessarily--dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender, so it's entirely possible to be trans and have a gender identity that has nothing to do with your body, as far as I know. There are indeed genders with no connection to femininity, masculinity, neutrality, or the absence thereof, so what would people who identify as those "try" to be? I think the reason this is often a point of confusion is that (a) there are many trans people who do experience dysphoria and so people think the two are necessarily inherent parts of each other, and (b) people who have gender identities that have no binary components whatsoever still generally tend to be read as somewhere on the binary at first glance, because it's hard to present/be recognized as something that most people don't realize exists, and so even if that person doesn't have any masculinity, femininity, or neutrality in their identity, they may still try to do things that are associated with unexpected components of those three "main" recognized gendery things in order to shake traditionally gendered expectations in whatever way they can, which can often be mistaken for a sign of dysphoria but in fact doesn't have to be. I don't have the answers for how all this works, but I think limiting the set of "believable" genders to variations on masculinity, femininity, and neutrality is a rather narrow view to take.
Supposing, there are "third gender marker". Why should it be counted as a gender marker, not as a marker of some another identity?

Can we also please have a word for people whose gender is an external thing instead of (or at least as much as) an internal thing? It's like asking a chameleon what color they "feel like" inside. "Gender fluid" doesn't get at this "external" or contextual quality.

Genderless? There are cis-genderless people, as I understand they don't feel their gender and they're cis by defoult, cause they were raised in a cis-society. If they were raised as "the opposite gender" they would probably be "trans-genderless" in sense they would take the opposite gender roles.

As a cis-genderless individual, I have zero issues with the idea of taking on roles that are typically assigned to females. Personally, I do not get the differences between how males and females act(if there is even a difference), and for about 2 decades, anecdotally, I see no evidence of that. Very large scale studies seems to confirm that there is no to little differences while differences seemingly are shrinking. Behaviorally, I can't see what a female role is. Cloth-wise, yes I see it.

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