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a difficult admission


butterflydreams

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butterflydreams

Ok, I'm just going to throw this out there, because I want to talk about it. It's pretty hard for me to even write this, but the difficult things are how we grow...so:

I'd like to experience real, honest-to-goodness, partnered sex.

I'm not interested in what this means or doesn't mean for my asexuality. If I weren't asexual, I'm sure I would've had sex by now (I'm 27). I'm not married to the label. If things shake out, and I'm actually not asexual, I wouldn't really be bothered by that. All paths lead to truth eventually.

I don't know exactly why I want to. Curiosity? Feeling like I'm missing out on what it means to be human? Tired of feeling like a child? (That's a big one.) Feeling like parts of my life are hung up on the fact that I haven't? Maybe it's like the first time I tried sushi. I really, really wanted to, so one day I did. I just treated it like a new experience.

I do consider myself somewhat sex-repulsed, or at least averse...but I guess my hope is that's on the surface, and once I tried it, I'd be ok. I understand that's a gamble. I understand that maybe I'll get myself in bed next to someone who's willing and ready and I won't be able to do it. Or worse, that I will do it, and deeply regret it afterwards. I could also end up sending my gender issues into maximum overdrive. These are risks. I think I understand them.

So I guess...where the hell do I start? There's no ifixit.com walkthrough for having sex. There's no Hayne's manual.

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Hey, I get you completely. I had a sexual relationship and attributed my dislike of sex to that person being psychologically abusive and selfish in bed.. Didn't realize until I'd been out of the relationship longer than I'd been in it about the gender stuff (and then what I had incidentally figured out did flip my switch took on a whole new context).

While I could live without partnered sex, I do have a libido and I would really, really, really like to be able to do that kind of thing with someone I care about without worrying about them doing things I can't deal with or having them freak out about me doing stuff to them.. All things given, and that I can't see myself transitioning, that's gonna be a hard sell. **I've even debated going on OK Cupid and spelling out exactly what I'm looking for, but I don't want sex to be the main point of a relationship. I'm definitely Demi and couldn't go from 0-100 that fast.

Just go with the flow of things. If there comes a point with someone where you feel comfortable and there's a mutual understanding of each other's boundaries, give it a try. You can always change your mind and stop if it gets uncomfortable.

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Just go with the flow of things. If there comes a point with someone where you feel comfortable and there's a mutual understanding of each other's boundaries, give it a try. You can always change your mind and stop if it gets uncomfortable.

That's my advice as well. Forcing it isn't going to end well, but there's a space between being open to it and actively looking for it... I guess I'd call it nudging... get a little flirty, allow conversations to drift toward the sexual, and have many intimate discussions before even considering getting physical. Maybe it's just me, but talking about sex definitely increases my interest in having it... I mean, at least by that point you understand each other, have exchanged intimate information and handled it with respect... I find all of that is kind of... sexy.

After all that and you're still not feelin' it, well, no biggie. Nothing's been started, no one is expecting anything... it's a low-pressure situation. And if you are interested in continuing down the sexual path, you initiate touch, like cuddling.

But we all have our own ways of doing things... mine works for me, and that's about all I got. :)

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Important question, I think: have you considered what sort of person that you would want to try sex with? Because for me at least, that sort of thing is crucial and could easily shape what sort of experience you have (for instance, the impression you get of sex with a total stranger could be vastly different from what you get of it with an actual loving partner)

For me there is only one person I would be able to comfortably "try it" with. In any other situation I could only see it turning out like how I react to my more sexually-oriented dreams: cold, alienating, a prevailing sense of me not feeling like myself. Very unpleasant, in other words.

Feeling like I'm missing out on what it means to be human? Tired of feeling like a child? (That's a big one.)

Having sex won't fix either of these things any more than riding a roller coaster would, I would think.

"Being human" is whatever you make of it, really. Much in line with "what is the meaning of life" sorts of questions. If there was any sort of magical fits-all answer to this we would all be enlightened, wizardly beings already. Obviously, we're far from it.

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butterflydreams

After all that and you're still not feelin' it, well, no biggie. Nothing's been started, no one is expecting anything... it's a low-pressure situation. And if you are interested in continuing down the sexual path, you initiate touch, like cuddling.

But we all have our own ways of doing things... mine works for me, and that's about all I got. :)

I guess I should've mentioned I don't have any willing person waiting in the wings. I don't really know how to get there with someone. I was actually with this woman about a year ago who I let through my outer shell. I could tell she was expecting something from me, but I was unsure what exactly, and I was too scared. She vanished soon after. I guess I have a lot to learn? Like how to touch?

Or alternatively, and inline with Chardog's idea, just spell it out. Say, "I'm unsure what to do here. This is new to me." Not exactly romantic, but what the crap am I supposed to do?

Important question, I think: have you considered what sort of person that you would want to try sex with? Because for me at least, that sort of thing is crucial and could easily shape what sort of experience you have (for instance, the impression you get of sex with a total stranger could be vastly different from what you get of it with an actual loving partner)

I guess not a stranger then. Maybe someone with some shred of understanding about me and where I'm coming from.

Feeling like I'm missing out on what it means to be human? Tired of feeling like a child? (That's a big one.)

Having sex won't fix either of these things any more than riding a roller coaster would, I would think.

"Being human" is whatever you make of it, really. Much in line with "what is the meaning of life" sorts of questions. If there was any sort of magical fits-all answer to this we would all be enlightened, wizardly beings already. Obviously, we're far from it.

Yes, objectively I know this. But it's not the message I've received from society my whole life, so in a way, it's a kind of reality.

I guess an alternative question might be, if I'm feeling like I'm missing out on what it means to be human, or feeling like a child, how can I get it into my head that sex doesn't make some human experience better than mine? How do I stop feeling like the little kid at the party?

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I was actually with this woman about a year ago who I let through my outer shell. I could tell she was expecting something from me, but I was unsure what exactly, and I was too scared. She vanished soon after.

First rule: Worry more about what you want and less about what they want. ;)

how can I get it into my head that sex doesn't make some human experience better than mine? How do I stop feeling like the little kid at the party?

If I could take a stab at this...

Is it possible that it's not sex itself that makes you feel like a child, but rather that you haven't conquered your fear of it? You seem like the kind of person who, generally speaking anyway, would face your fears if for no reason other than to do it. But here, there's this thing that people age into that you haven't experienced, and maybe you feel like a kid for still being scared.

But, a couple things: (1) The mature, adult, grown up, healthy thing to do is recognize and accept yourself and what you need, regardless of whether that's what other people need; (2) I don't think you haven't had sex because you're scared like a kid... sexuality, it's complicated and highly intertwined with so many other aspects of ourselves... for one thing, until you feel like you, until you're physically comfortable with yourself, there's just no way to positively connect to sex (in my, granted, totally cis opinion); (3) sex is as valuable as what you get out of it, period. There's nothing inherently good or valuable about it... it's just an action that lots of people like and some people don't.

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I was actually with this woman about a year ago who I let through my outer shell. I could tell she was expecting something from me, but I was unsure what exactly, and I was too scared. She vanished soon after.

First rule: Worry more about what you want and less about what they want. ;)

You have to find someone where you can start slow and build trust and understanding with in a non-sexual way. When you have that and feel a connection that you want to move forward with into sexual territory, be honest with them about your experience and your gender identity. They will either be understanding and willing to ease into things or they'll decide it's not a situation they want to deal with (in which case you deserve someone better anyway).

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I'm kind of in the same boat as Philip. I've recognized people I'd be ok with having sex with, but it's never been more than a recognition. And, from what you say, I feel like that may partly be what you're looking for. To have someone whom you completely trust and care about - someone who equally trusts and cares for you - to the point where you can say, 'Yeah, it'd be ok with them.'. More like, 'It'd be ok for them', because at the end of the day I'm still sex averse and asexual. ;)

As far as being human goes, every animal species out there has some sort of sexuality, for the purpose of reproduction. In that sense, there's nothing all that uniquely human about sex. Simply getting to know someone is a much more human experience, in my book; caring for someone else is even more so.

As far as there being a manual for sex, you bet they're out there! haha xD As fascinating as sex is supposed to be, many people aren't satisfied to just 'wing it' or figure it out themselves. They need to exchange the sacred sexual knowledge.. :o Pick up your cosmo magazine on your way through the checkout at the supermarket, if you want.

....but goodness, did Skullery just relate cuddling and sex?? I don't know if I'll ever be able to cuddle again.. >.>

EDIT: Since I don't know if it comes across, I was joking. But, it really has to do with the fact that for me (and alot of other asexuals, I'd assume) things like cuddling, eye contact, and laughter have no relation to sex. To think of them as being some form of foreplay in certain situations is odd.

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Before banging someone, I'd do lots of things. Cuddling is one of those things. So is eye contact. So is laughing together. Are you never going to look someone in the eye or share a laugh just because sometimes people who do those things eventually have sex?

EDIT: Well, everything is foreplay in some sense, but I wouldn't call cuddling foreplay. It's just that, I mean, you don't go from Hey how are ya to sex without a million intermediate steps to make sure you actually like the person, feel comfortable with them, get turned on by their touch or smell or whatever... lots of things that aren't overtly sexual are still necessary to build to sex (or at least decent sex). Like, i can go to the grocery store and that doesn't mean I'm cooking a big dinner. That's one of the outcomes of going to the grocery store, but I could also just be picking up dog food, or soda, or whatever. Going to the grocery store is only "big dinner foreplay" if that's what you're intending as a result of the trip. You can also go to the grocery store, get a bunch of stuff, and put it in your pantry until one day you decide you want to make a big dinner... and blammo, all the ingredients are already there. Going to the grocery store wasn't foreplay for the dinner, then, but it was still necessary for the final event.

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butterflydreams

I was actually with this woman about a year ago who I let through my outer shell. I could tell she was expecting something from me, but I was unsure what exactly, and I was too scared. She vanished soon after.

First rule: Worry more about what you want and less about what they want. ;)

This might be one of the biggest things I need to work on.

how can I get it into my head that sex doesn't make some human experience better than mine? How do I stop feeling like the little kid at the party?

If I could take a stab at this...

Is it possible that it's not sex itself that makes you feel like a child, but rather that you haven't conquered your fear of it? You seem like the kind of person who, generally speaking anyway, would face your fears if for no reason other than to do it. But here, there's this thing that people age into that you haven't experienced, and maybe you feel like a kid for still being scared.

But, a couple things: (1) The mature, adult, grown up, healthy thing to do is recognize and accept yourself and what you need, regardless of whether that's what other people need; (2) I don't think you haven't had sex because you're scared like a kid... sexuality, it's complicated and highly intertwined with so many other aspects of ourselves... for one thing, until you feel like you, until you're physically comfortable with yourself, there's just no way to positively connect to sex (in my, granted, totally cis opinion); (3) sex is as valuable as what you get out of it, period. There's nothing inherently good or valuable about it... it's just an action that lots of people like and some people don't.

I really appreciate the honesty here. These are some hard truths. I'll be the first to admit I've got some messed up ideas about sex, and even more messed up ideas about what the lack of it means. But they do reflect my experienced reality.

I don't even think that opinion has to be "cis" qualified. Seems like it would apply across the board. I suppose that's what I'd need to watch out for in the case of doing it in spite of discomfort. That could turn out very poorly and make things a whole lot worse :unsure:

There's definitely a lot of fears, and I suppose in that sense, I do want to overcome them. There's also an undercurrent of fear that lack of sex, or any kind of non-sexual partnered contact like cuddling or kissing is a negative statement about my worth as a person. I know that sounds like BS, but from my perspective, I'm XX years old, and no one has even thought of getting close? That shit messes with your mind. Am I a horrible person? Am I really unlikable? Maybe I'm ugly. Maybe _____? God only knows! It's hard to explain how wild the imagination can speculate in that situation unless you've been there.

I was actually with this woman about a year ago who I let through my outer shell. I could tell she was expecting something from me, but I was unsure what exactly, and I was too scared. She vanished soon after.

First rule: Worry more about what you want and less about what they want. ;)

You have to find someone where you can start slow and build trust and understanding with in a non-sexual way. When you have that and feel a connection that you want to move forward with into sexual territory, be honest with them about your experience and your gender identity. They will either be understanding and willing to ease into things or they'll decide it's not a situation they want to deal with (in which case you deserve someone better anyway).

My question here would be what about with that woman I was with last year? I told myself then, go as slow as you want. Don't do anything you don't want to do. She has as much responsibility to say what she wants as you do. But like I said, I think she got tired of waiting, and left. More power to her, of course. But how would you keep someone around long enough to build that trust and understanding?

I know normal people have shit to do. They don't want to be wasting time waiting for me when non-hungup sure things are a dime a dozen. That seems like a tough sell. "Yeah, you should stick around, go 1000x slower than you've ever gone with anyone else for me to maybe/maybe not be able to come around...and even if/when I do, don't expect anything normal because Gender Issues." Is this a realistic assessment? Or do I have major self esteem problems?

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scarletlatitude

I know normal people have shit to do. They don't want to be wasting time waiting for me when non-hungup sure things are a dime a dozen. That seems like a tough sell. "Yeah, you should stick around, go 1000x slower than you've ever gone with anyone else for me to maybe/maybe not be able to come around...and even if/when I do, don't expect anything normal because Gender Issues." Is this a realistic assessment? Or do I have major self esteem problems?

I don't have any answers for you, but this is 10,000% how I feel too. If you find any answers let me know. ;) :cake:

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I know normal people have shit to do. They don't want to be wasting time waiting for me when non-hungup sure things are a dime a dozen. That seems like a tough sell. "Yeah, you should stick around, go 1000x slower than you've ever gone with anyone else for me to maybe/maybe not be able to come around...and even if/when I do, don't expect anything normal because Gender Issues." Is this a realistic assessment? Or do I have major self esteem problems?

You know what? I think it's helpful to occasionally adopt an objective perspective on oneself. Just don't forget that in order to be functional, we kinda need to adopt a... rose colored glasses perspective of ourselves. For me, it's important that I recognize that I'm an asshole, because if I didn't recognize it, I'd never curb it. But if I only focused on that, I'd either be a bigger asshole (self-fulfilling prophecy) or I'd feel too shitty to ever connect with people. So, be aware of the limitations you're bringing to the party, but then, try to ignore it most of the time.

I'm not gonna lie to ya, Hads, finding someone willing to stick it out with you will be trickier than it is for most people. Guaranteed there are people out there willing to do it, though. Guaranteed. Just know what you need and accept that it may be a dealbreaker for a lot of people. It's ok and it doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. Some people are just lucky (hi!) to have a very common gender/ sexuality combination. Some people are less lucky in that finding a match is harder. There's no moral implications in it, however... it's literally just a numbers game.

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butterflydreams

I know normal people have shit to do. They don't want to be wasting time waiting for me when non-hungup sure things are a dime a dozen. That seems like a tough sell. "Yeah, you should stick around, go 1000x slower than you've ever gone with anyone else for me to maybe/maybe not be able to come around...and even if/when I do, don't expect anything normal because Gender Issues." Is this a realistic assessment? Or do I have major self esteem problems?

You know what? I think it's helpful to occasionally adopt an objective perspective on oneself. Just don't forget that in order to be functional, we kinda need to adopt a... rose colored glasses perspective of ourselves. For me, it's important that I recognize that I'm an asshole, because if I didn't recognize it, I'd never curb it. But if I only focused on that, I'd either be a bigger asshole (self-fulfilling prophecy) or I'd feel too shitty to ever connect with people. So, be aware of the limitations you're bringing to the party, but then, try to ignore it most of the time.

I'm not gonna lie to ya, Hads, finding someone willing to stick it out with you will be trickier than it is for most people. Guaranteed there are people out there willing to do it, though. Guaranteed. Just know what you need and accept that it may be a dealbreaker for a lot of people. It's ok and it doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. Some people are just lucky (hi!) to have a very common gender/ sexuality combination. Some people are less lucky in that finding a match is harder. There's no moral implications in it, however... it's literally just a numbers game.

Damn...Skulls hitting me with all the hard truths. I really appreciate you not pulling any punches when talking about this stuff. It's totally my language.

I really need to figure out how to disconnect my self-worth from my lack of finding any match. That's definitely what's killing me.

The other thing I was trying to explain to someone one time was how hard it was to keep putting yourself out there (playing the numbers game), investing emotional capital, and seeing zero return...ever. Eventually it's like...I, I just don't have anything left. It's emotionally draining. I still feel like crap, but now I don't even have emotional capital to invest in people anymore. She didn't understand. It was frustrating.

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The other thing I was trying to explain to someone one time was how hard it was to keep putting yourself out there (playing the numbers game), investing emotional capital, and seeing zero return...ever. Eventually it's like...I, I just don't have anything left. It's emotionally draining. I still feel like crap, but now I don't even have emotional capital to invest in people anymore. She didn't understand. It was frustrating.

That may be a function of age, also -- the age of the person you were trying to explain it to. Older sexuals who haven't been partnered would be much more likely to understand.

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butterflydreams

The other thing I was trying to explain to someone one time was how hard it was to keep putting yourself out there (playing the numbers game), investing emotional capital, and seeing zero return...ever. Eventually it's like...I, I just don't have anything left. It's emotionally draining. I still feel like crap, but now I don't even have emotional capital to invest in people anymore. She didn't understand. It was frustrating.

That may be a function of age, also -- the age of the person you were trying to explain it to. Older sexuals who haven't been partnered would be much more likely to understand.

Heh...nice. It was actually my mom. We have this argument at least a few times a year.

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Speaking as someone (more emotionally oriented) who has had similar battles with their own mom (someone who pretty much doesn't get emotions) about their outbursts and depression, and has similarly gotten nowhere and is beginning to realize just how nowhere they've gotten:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

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I definitely understand it, I just don't have a solution for it. I've found that having several good friends who keep you feeling valuable, wanted, and social really helps. Like, friends who are really engaged in your day to day life... sharing your life is nice, I think, regardless of whether it's a romantic partner or a group friends.

And of course there's the old adages that help no one ever, but are usually kinda true. Like... you'll find them once you stop looking... the right person will come at the right time... blah blah blah. But true nonetheless.

Also, getting to know people online/ over Skype, etc, is handy... deep emotional connections can form with far less pressure and over longer periods of time. Oh and also! Explore people. Feel a bit of a draw or interest in someone? Just roll with it... 9 times out of 10, nothing comes of it, but every now again something just... clicks.

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butterflydreams

I like the friends idea. Unfortunately I moved away from all my friends, but honestly, they left me long before that. I tried the distance thing with a few friends. We were really close. But I ended up being a stand in until she got a boyfriend and he got a wife...then I was unnecessary. God...fucking people.

Good call on the skype thing. I always do better when there's less nonverbal communication. At least at first.

So, just a random idea here, but maybe it would be worth a shot to spell out the details on some online dating site (only grazing on the sex stuff) and see what happens. Stop being ashamed of things, or bending truths to appease an audience. Spell out clearly where I'm at. Could it be that simple?

Also, it's funny that I totally believe the universe is giving me the green light when weird things line up, like randomly finding out about a gender clinic nearby. But apparently I just don't care about other potential signs? Maybe people are into me and I don't know it.

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So, just a random idea here, but maybe it would be worth a shot to spell out the details on some online dating site (only grazing on the sex stuff) and see what happens. Stop being ashamed of things, or bending truths to appease an audience. Spell out clearly where I'm at. Could it be that simple?

I think there are benefits to that, like, you'll be forced to talk about yourself, describe yourself, sort of... not invent yourself, but get a sense for what feels comfortable, self-perception wise. The downside is that people can be.... bizarre... so you have to be able to laugh at the stuff you encounter so you don't end up losing all faith in humanity :lol:

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The other thing I was trying to explain to someone one time was how hard it was to keep putting yourself out there (playing the numbers game), investing emotional capital, and seeing zero return...ever. Eventually it's like...I, I just don't have anything left. It's emotionally draining. I still feel like crap, but now I don't even have emotional capital to invest in people anymore. She didn't understand. It was frustrating.

That may be a function of age, also -- the age of the person you were trying to explain it to. Older sexuals who haven't been partnered would be much more likely to understand.

Heh...nice. It was actually my mom. We have this argument at least a few times a year.

Yeah, but your mom 1) is your mom and probably worried about you, and 2) she was partnered at some point, I'd guess, with your father. I meant older people who haven't been partnered (and aren't your family).

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butterflydreams

So, just a random idea here, but maybe it would be worth a shot to spell out the details on some online dating site (only grazing on the sex stuff) and see what happens. Stop being ashamed of things, or bending truths to appease an audience. Spell out clearly where I'm at. Could it be that simple?

I think there are benefits to that, like, you'll be forced to talk about yourself, describe yourself, sort of... not invent yourself, but get a sense for what feels comfortable, self-perception wise. The downside is that people can be.... bizarre... so you have to be able to laugh at the stuff you encounter so you don't end up losing all faith in humanity :lol:

Hehe, I'm not too worried about people being bizarre. Any interest in me would welcome to some degree at this point. I think I have to toughen up and just say, this is what I am, this is what I've got going on gender-wise, this is the direction I'd like to go in. And not feel like I have to justify myself to others...jeez, that's a big one. No, I know I'm friggin awesome, you have to prove you're worth my time.
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*skips over all the other posts to insert my opinion, so I may be affirming or contrasting things already said or debated, bear with me*
being curious is perfectly normal, just like being bicurous doesn't make you bi, it just means you're unsure of yourself but would like to know for sure
with that said you can definitely be curious about what sex is actually like, even as an asexual. Seeing people all around you have sex and enjoy it even though it has no blatant appeal for you can definitely get you to thinking why it is they enjoy it so much.
That said, definitely don't force yourself to do so with someone you're not interested in, even if you find you do enjoy sex (and even then you can still call yourself asexual even if a demi/gray-ace) you're right that may definitely regret doing it with the wrong person, so obviously it may be a minute before you get close enough to somebody so as to feel comfortable doing so,
If you're truly interested in exploring your sexuality in this sense, definitely be patient, build a good close emotional rapport with any potential candidate (so that the worst case scenario, you have bad sex and don't like it but can carry on with yourselves as friends or even as bf/gf/emotional partners/etc)

I also notice you're in transition, and, (real quick disclaimer: for as much as I try otherwise, I do tend to say ignorant or backhanded comments when it comes to that, so please bear with me and understand I mean no ill will) needless to say that makes things more complicated not to mention reducing your pool, and I'm guessing these are things you're already aware of and don't need being told. But, you did say you acknowledge the risk it entails to that aspect of yourself, to that I can assert that gender and sexuality are two separate things, discovering that you were sexual the whole time (or, that you are in fact truly asexual) bears no implications towards your gender and identity, obviously being told as much may not help if an experience does send you down that spiral, so I guess the question to ask yourself is if affirming that aspect of yourself worth the risk of suddenly needing to reaffirm another aspect?

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butterflydreams

Thanks, aragorn, that makes plenty of sense to me.

The gender risk isn't necessarily that I'd be pushed to reaffirm that aspect, but rather more that I know I'm uncomfortable with the sexed body I'm in. Partnered sex brings that element right to the top. The concern I think is of becoming really upset by that fact during sex. Every sense screaming how wrong my body is. That's the risk I'd try to avoid. I think through proper communication it could be mitigated. "Look, you can't treat me like a guy. You can't touch me like this, you can't do that. And I can't do that." Just a handful of really important ground rules.

The part about building a close emotional rapport with a potential partner made me think of a possible scenario I had, but I'm unsure how realistic it might be. Say I find a friend, and we become close, and all this stuff about me is out in the relative open with us. Would it be weird to ask my friend if they wanted to try it with me? Just like a friend helping you do anything. I know we tend to see sexual partners as more than friends, but does that have to be? Someone suggested to me in another thread that I might find myself more comfortable with feminine agender people, or feminine non-binary people, as opposed to straight, normal, men or women. At least at first. That certainly made me feel a bit more at ease about it. What attraction I do have tends to be feminine of center I guess, but it really is vague.

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That makes sense, it's not about the gender affirmation but that you aren't complete comfortable with yourself,

As for building rapport with friends, it's definitely a tricky scenario and I even don't have all the answers to that, my approach certainly doesn't work with everybody (and has even myself questioning if I can still call myself even a gray-ace), and involves getting close enough with someone in a short enough time span but, with a flirtatious element to it so that such stuff is on the table, cuz while I've done it with close friends with a long rapport, my quick way is definitely easier for me (gray-asexual one night stands and hookups.... they are so complicated >.>)
and like I said, my method is certainly not very appealing to many gray-asexuals interested in sex, and it certainly won't be for you, so I can't say for certain how it'll pan out if you spent a long time building emotional rapport

as for the scenario you mentioned, if everything's open, and they themselves know this particular part about you that you have potential interest in exploring your own sexual interest, make sure you have a partner that's on board, if you're dating a partner who is sexual then you already are in the clear they are more or less waiting for your own affirmation, but, should you ever become comfortable enough with a partner, even your first time can come more naturally (it may require some assertion from your partner to push you just a smidge, because sexual or not, interested or not, depending on the person there is still a comfort zone barrier to some degree you have to cross the first time)

I am sorry to say there is no easy way to go about it, there is a lot of owning up to yourself and Shia LaBeouf yelling at you inside your head to "JUST DO IT!", it's definitely scary the first time, but again, if you consent to begin with, the worst case scenario is that you regret it and find you don't like it, and simply reaffirm what you already think you know about yourself, and in any other instance, you may find you enjoy at least some aspects of it, if the physical aspect alone doesn't appeal, perhaps you'll find the emotional intimacy of it is especially appealing? :)

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butterflydreams

Ooo, thank you! There's definitely a lot I need to think about, and work out. But I guess it does take two, so at the very least, somebody (hopefully someone I trust deeply) will be there to help me through.

This is a totally new chapter in my life. I'm very interested to see where it goes :)

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Oops, I'm late to the party, but I happened to find this thread and really want to comment. :(

There's definitely a lot of fears, and I suppose in that sense, I do want to overcome them. There's also an undercurrent of fear that lack of sex, or any kind of non-sexual partnered contact like cuddling or kissing is a negative statement about my worth as a person. I know that sounds like BS, but from my perspective, I'm XX years old, and no one has even thought of getting close? That shit messes with your mind. Am I a horrible person? Am I really unlikable? Maybe I'm ugly. Maybe _____? God only knows! It's hard to explain how wild the imagination can speculate in that situation unless you've been there.

I know normal people have shit to do. They don't want to be wasting time waiting for me when non-hungup sure things are a dime a dozen. That seems like a tough sell. "Yeah, you should stick around, go 1000x slower than you've ever gone with anyone else for me to maybe/maybe not be able to come around...and even if/when I do, don't expect anything normal because Gender Issues." Is this a realistic assessment? Or do I have major self esteem problems?

I really need to figure out how to disconnect my self-worth from my lack of finding any match. That's definitely what's killing me.

The other thing I was trying to explain to someone one time was how hard it was to keep putting yourself out there (playing the numbers game), investing emotional capital, and seeing zero return...ever. Eventually it's like...I, I just don't have anything left. It's emotionally draining. I still feel like crap, but now I don't even have emotional capital to invest in people anymore. She didn't understand. It was frustrating.

So, just a random idea here, but maybe it would be worth a shot to spell out the details on some online dating site (only grazing on the sex stuff) and see what happens. Stop being ashamed of things, or bending truths to appease an audience. Spell out clearly where I'm at. Could it be that simple?

Hadley.. Stop beating yourself up over this. I can relate to everything you say here, and I have some friends who can relate to much of what you say here.

You know what I believe? These are all just bullshit consequences that result from being born into a biologically male body without developing the personality to carry you through with it. As Skullery said, it is a "numbers game", and people like us are the absolute butt of that numbers game.

I mean, I just have to imagine if my girlfriend were born as a male. Would there be anyone seeking her out? Would there be anyone chasing after her, being endlessly patient with her, doing everything in their power to make a relationship with her work? Fuck no. I wouldn't even have noticed her. She would just have continued with her life of solitude, without anyone giving a damn.

That's pretty sad now that I think about it. And it really bothers me. I don't like this world where such a disparity between the sexes is so obvious, and yet nobody cares, nobody shows sympathy. On the contrary, any person who finds this fate of theirs unfair, who feel they're not being treated equally, is instantly categorized as some kind of selfish, weak, mysognistic person.

The part about building a close emotional rapport with a potential partner made me think of a possible scenario I had, but I'm unsure how realistic it might be. Say I find a friend, and we become close, and all this stuff about me is out in the relative open with us. Would it be weird to ask my friend if they wanted to try it with me? Just like a friend helping you do anything. I know we tend to see sexual partners as more than friends, but does that have to be?

This is also unclear to me. If I had a good friend who asked me for something like this, I'd consider it (even if they're male and I'm not attracted to them). But to me, there's nothing inherently special about sexuality, and no inherent disconnect between sexual and non-sexual relationships (I like the concept of relationship anarchy).

Someone suggested to me in another thread that I might find myself more comfortable with feminine agender people, or feminine non-binary people, as opposed to straight, normal, men or women. At least at first. That certainly made me feel a bit more at ease about it. What attraction I do have tends to be feminine of center I guess, but it really is vague.

Depending on what you mean by "feminine", that might or might not be part of your problem. Many "female-typical" stereotypes more or less directly imply that people like us are out of the question as potential partners. I used to bang my head against that particular wall a lot, going for the "feminine" kind of girls because I found them cute and attractive, until I realized that more "male-like" women exist as well (although rare), and they're a much better match for me.

Also, Skulls, just to appease you, let me first say: I agree with most of what you said in this thread, and I want to thank you for giving Hadley good advice.

However, this part I disagree with:

And of course there's the old adages that help no one ever, but are usually kinda true. Like... you'll find them once you stop looking... the right person will come at the right time... blah blah blah. But true nonetheless.

There have been times in my life when I felt somewhat okay being single, and was comfortable not doing anything about it.. And in those times, I literally had no contact with women whatsoever. None never bothered to talk to me, and with me not being otherwise motivated, I had no interest to talk to them over my very good male friends.

I was only successful when I decided to put myself in a socially awkward situation and give up a lot of comfort specifically in order to get to know a person who I was sexually attracted to. It was like punching through a wall. If I had ever believed that this wasn't an issue that I had to totally invest myself in, then it wouldn't have happened. I'd still be alone.

So I guess what I'm saying, Hadley.. You're feeling really desperate, hurt, worked up over this issue? Well, good, because that'll give you the energy to actually get things done. And I'm really very sorry that it's this tough for you, and that you can't just expect your prince or princess to come barging into your home and rescue you from your loneliness (I mean this seriously, I think that is a very understandable wish to have, and I've had it), but unfortunately that's how it is for people like us.

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butterflydreams

Tar, thank you for that detailed, thoughtful response :)

The only bit I'm in disagreement with (perhaps only because your meaning didn't come through clearly) is that I lack the personality to carry me through life (at least until recently) with a biologically male body. I think I have a great, and very caring personality. That's where my gender issues lie I think. That as male, I just don't work right. The engine doesn't run smoothly. It's lacking power. I'm missing that little extra kick that normal men/women have. It's that little extra kick that pushes them through stuff, motivates them in pairing off, etc. The first time I felt that kick was when I was first contemplating transition.

Also, Skulls, just to appease you, let me first say: I agree with most of what you said in this thread, and I want to thank you for giving Hadley good advice.


However, this part I disagree with:

And of course there's the old adages that help no one ever, but are usually kinda true. Like... you'll find them once you stop looking... the right person will come at the right time... blah blah blah. But true nonetheless.


There have been times in my life when I felt somewhat okay being single, and was comfortable not doing anything about it.. And in those times, I literally had no contact with women whatsoever. None never bothered to talk to me, and with me not being otherwise motivated, I had no interest to talk to them over my very good male friends.

I was only successful when I decided to put myself in a socially awkward situation and give up a lot of comfort specifically in order to get to know a person who I was sexually attracted to. It was like punching through a wall. If I had ever believed that this wasn't an issue that I had to totally invest myself in, then it wouldn't have happened. I'd still be alone.

I know exactly what you're saying here, and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest this isn't exactly what Skulls was implying by citing that particular adage. Which, under normal circumstances, I'd agree with you.

There's not just one kind of "stop looking". There are lots of ways to stop. Not all of which are a terminal sentence to loneliness. Stopping looking for example, doesn't mean if the Universe tosses something into your regular field of vision that you ignore it. Just because you're not out there looking and seeking doesn't mean you can't make moves on situations you just happen to see. That's an attitude I can largely agree with simply because my life is too important to waste screwing around "looking" for someone who, in my opinion, doesn't want to be found by me. If they show up in my daily dealings, cool. But I'm not going to spend time looking for them.

So I guess what I'm saying, Hadley.. You're feeling really desperate, hurt, worked up over this issue? Well, good, because that'll give you the energy to actually get things done. And I'm really very sorry that it's this tough for you, and that you can't just expect your prince or princess to come barging into your home and rescue you from your loneliness (I mean this seriously, I think that is a very understandable wish to have, and I've had it), but unfortunately that's how it is for people like us.

I wouldn't quite use those words to describe how I feel about it...maybe extremely frustrated, definitely hurt (the biggest one), only occasionally "worked up" over it. Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't accept a prince/princess barging in to "rescue" me. I've demonstrated (to my ample satisfaction) myself as a sufficiently worthy person for years, only to watch people with far more issues and far fewer assets be rewarded again and again with opportunity after opportunity.

I don't need rescuing. I can and have saved myself, and I continue to do so on a daily basis. I've already done what very, very few people are forced to do. So I'm not in need of a rescue. I need to prove nothing to no one. It's others who need to prove to me that they're tough enough to walk the road I've walked. If they can't, how are they going to walk with me?

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Hadley

Skulls and the others have said all the good substantive stuff but I've got a few cents-worth to chuck in.

Learn how to touch?

Specifically with your woman-last-year situation, that might've helped and it's simple (though not necessarily easy...).

It's about opening up touch as one of the things that you and the other person 'do' and you can start tentatively, see if it's reciprocated or appreciated, then maybe go a bit further, see how that goes... rinse and repeat. Like: helping them on with a coat (even if you wouldn't normally) - don't go out of your way not to touch, and let any semi-inadvertent touching linger just a couple of moments. Same thing with handing them something, if your hands touch. If they like it, they won't pull away. If they don't, they'll pull back. You (specifically you, Hadley) will be so hypersensitive about this that you'll pick up any reluctance from them, so don't worry about overstepping the mark. You'll be fine, and they're not going leap up screaming at your presumptuous lechery.

If that goes okay, lean in closer than normal if you're both looking at something together. Or a hand in the small of their back in 'guidance' if you're walking somewhere together. If they like it, they won't move away, or the might reciprocate, or just give you a smile.

This probably sounds creepy and lecherous, and if you keep doing after they pulling back, it is. If you take it slowly, and stop the moment they don't respond positively, it's fine, and just Stuff That People Do. It's kind of a non verbal conversation, and it's nerve racking and takes a bit of 'just do it' at first, but when you get touched in return, or smiled at, or any kind of big fat 'yes, please', it's wonderful...

It's just the kind of discovery process that sexuals do all the time. (And a lot us had to figure it out slowly and mortifyingly, too).

And on your 'has nobody found me attractive?'... based on your posts here, I pretty much guarantee some people have found you attractive. Maybe they tried some of the touching or flirting and you didn't read it, or believe it, and they took that as a no thanks. This flirting stuff is a delicate flower in the early stages... (I speak as a very straight male who literally couldn't conceive of a woman being interested in him till he was about 23 and got his head moderately together. In retrospect, I missed several women who I really fancied throwing themselves at me because: Self Esteem Issues).

Also, if you're androgynous and in the general midst of transitiony stuff, they were maybe unsure of how to play it, who you'd be interested in, whether you're staying away from relationships because Gender Issues, and they didn't want to put you in an awkward position.

What worked for me was a big shift in my work situation which changed my location, got me naturally mixing with a big group of people who helped beef up my ego (it needed it...), and also, alcohol at some key points.

And in the end, getting to the point where I could sort of suspend disbelief over someone being attracted to me helped. I had no idea why on earth they were into me, but they clearly were, so what the hell... it's a version of Skulls' thinking about what you need, which sounds selfish but actually isn't.

There was an image I came across round that time that made a lot of sense to me. Crowded pavement, pedestrians going both ways. If they all worried too much about second guessing each other's route, no one would make any progress and probably bump into each other even more. But we all keep going where we're going, and we keep out of each other's way, as if by magic...

I have no idea if any of that is of any use at all...

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