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Incredible Agender Moments


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Plectrophenax

I'm not sure why, but I thought I was supposed to look at them, whether I had an attraction to them or not? I had a conversation for an hour with a friend wearing revealing clothing so it took a bit to not keep staring.

It's funny, but I initially thought so as well. Everyone was either going on about how amazing a womans chest and bottom are to look at, or they blatantly and unapologetically stared at them. Once I realised this was a thing that wasn't just limited to individual [strange strange] people but seemed applicable to a majority of humans [including females], I spent some time gawking as well, only my mind wasn't occupied by whatever thoughts other people might hold but by the nagging question; "So what, please, is the big deal? Is there something I'm not getting here? What could it possibly be"

It took me quite some time to drop the habit, too. I can't stand not getting something that others find self-evident, so I would regularly attempt at figuring it out, hoping in vein that 'practice' would make me understand. Needless to say, I gave up after a while.

It's like when Eowyn killed the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings! "No man may kill one" "I AM NO MAN!"

And now all non-binaries are the heros of everything.

That scene was mind-boggling to me. "Man" is a gender-neutral term relative to its usage [sexist though some might consider this to be], and it is used in that sense too. But what that line - more specifically her success in killing the Witch King - implies is that it isn't gender-neutral but exclusively male. And that not only the entire language of Lord of the Rings essentially excludes women, but even the supernatural lore of the entire world does.

If gender is such a big deal to people [and I have to assume that it is], that scene should have caused an outrage, not applause.

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It's like when Eowyn killed the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings! "No man may kill one" "I AM NO MAN!"

And now all non-binaries are the heros of everything.

That scene was mind-boggling to me. "Man" is a gender-neutral term relative to its usage [sexist though some might consider this to be], and it is used in that sense too. But what that line - more specifically her success in killing the Witch King - implies is that it isn't gender-neutral but exclusively male. And that not only the entire language of Lord of the Rings essentially excludes women, but even the supernatural lore of the entire world does.

If gender is such a big deal to people [and I have to assume that it is], that scene should have caused an outrage, not applause.

I think it was meant to some extent to be a commentary on the inherently sexist lore of the middle ages. It was an applause-worthy event because we had a strong female character, who was good for more than just a love object, but also a cringe-worthy moment about how much it outlined our inherent sexism in western middle-ages mythologies... or at least, that's my take on it.

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Plectrophenax

I think it was meant to some extent to be a commentary on the inherently sexist lore of the middle ages. It was an applause-worthy event because we had a strong female character, who was good for more than just a love object, but also a cringe-worthy moment about how much it outlined our inherent sexism in western middle-ages mythologies... or at least, that's my take on it.

It was probably meant to be that, yes. But as someone who takes in-medium lore seriously, it just makes zero sense without being explicitly sexist [and not just one way either]. Applauding that seems awfully backwards to me. I get it somewhat, but I feel like it's rather reactionary and relies on the so-called "shock value" of a woman actually doing something as opposed to commenting by being clever or making a point [indeed, at the cost of those things].

Inclusivity and equal treatment of genders is long overdue [though arguably not in deliberatly medieval settings like Middle Earth], but I guess I don't think cheering something on just because it breaks a barrier that shouldn't be there in the first place makes much sense - especially if, by doing so, it contradicts its own in-your-face message within the lore itself.

Regarding the topic of this thread, a less extreme example of this kind of 'applause' would be the reveal of Samus Aran being a woman at the end of Metroid [a NES game, for those two of you who don't know]. This was a big deal because women's roles in video games tended to be rather limited at the time, but that alone didn't account for the reaction. From what I gathered at the time [and afterwards], the reveal was so "shocking" and "unexpected" because people had just assumed the armour-clad protagonist to be male for no reason whatsoever, and got caught off-guard at it being a woman. Blame it on being agender that I didn't assign a gender to a character who was in no way defined by it, and thus was not shocked in the slightest. Blame it on being agender too, I suppose, that I didn't even 'get' the hype about it, in spite of being in strong favour of equal treatment of the sexes.

As far as I'm concerned, regarding fictional characters at least, you might as well flip a coin in order to determine their gender [and yes, I know how that sounds to people who value notions of gender a lot].

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Dodecahedron314

A few weeks ago, I was going down the stairs on the way to a practice room, and passed a friend whom I'd come out to as agender a few days before. I mentioned I was practicing for an audition, and he said "You've got this. You're the...neutral supreme being. I was going to say you're the man, but you said you don't have a gender, so you're the neutral supreme being." That pretty much made my day. :D

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I tend to see every word as a gender-neutral term by default, even things that are (apparently) obviously not. This led to rather a lot of confusion when I was younger, but I've got it mostly sorted now... or so I think, until a discussion like the below comes up and I realise that even though I keep thinking of things like "mankind" as being rather neutral they actually aren't (I'm quite sure I'd feel the same about "womankind" if that was what was seen more often). I've the unfortunate habit of therefore defaulting to whatever word I think just looks the best, and then that causes confusion in others... eh.

I also really wish that more games just had completely genderless characters or avatars, if you're stuck playing one default character. There's always so much talk about needing more female characters in these roles, and I get that to some extent because it is usually male characters, but why not just have it be unknown? Wouldn't that be easier for everyone? I can just happily ever make an assumption, and other people can make whatever assumption they want. Odd example: part of the reason I like Opposing Force over Blue Shift and Half-Life is that I don't have to make any assumptions about Adrian Sheperd, whereas in the cases of both Barney Calhoun and Gordon Freeman the character is defined. I dunno. Of course, my ultimate preference for games-with-characters (as opposted to RTSs or what) is to be able to make your own character, but that's the incorrigible roleplayer in me speaking.

It's like when Eowyn killed the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings! "No man may kill one" "I AM NO MAN!"

And now all non-binaries are the heros of everything.

That scene was mind-boggling to me. "Man" is a gender-neutral term relative to its usage [sexist though some might consider this to be], and it is used in that sense too. But what that line - more specifically her success in killing the Witch King - implies is that it isn't gender-neutral but exclusively male. And that not only the entire language of Lord of the Rings essentially excludes women, but even the supernatural lore of the entire world does.

If gender is such a big deal to people [and I have to assume that it is], that scene should have caused an outrage, not applause.

I think it was meant to some extent to be a commentary on the inherently sexist lore of the middle ages. It was an applause-worthy event because we had a strong female character, who was good for more than just a love object, but also a cringe-worthy moment about how much it outlined our inherent sexism in western middle-ages mythologies... or at least, that's my take on it.

It's something of that, I'm certain. From what I recall, the event also came about to some extent because Tolkien felt that it was a copout in Macbeth to focus on the "of woman born" rather than "no man", similar to the Ents owing some of their origin to "Till Birnam forest come to Dunsinane".

There are also two other possible ways to take it.

One of them is that the prophecy was actually inaccurate, and although Éowyn herself has interpreted it to mean that it is "no man" in the sense of excluding women, it was meant to be "no man" as in the race of Men, and anyone who stepped up and stabbed the Witch-King in the face would have killed him.

The other one is that it was actually Merry's strike that made him vulnerable (Merry, of course, being a Hobbit), but once that was done, anybody could have killed him and it was Éowyn who was there and had the willpower and skill necessary.

Personally, I think that either it's the above one, or that it hinges upon the capitalisation. Tolkien capitalises species names throughout (Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, etc.), so assuming that "man" is in fact in lower case in that quote -- which I don't recall off the top of my head but may look up later -- it is almost certainly actually meant as "no male human" as opposed to "no human".

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probably the best thing that ever happened for me was to learn about the term "agender"...

never felt like a girl, but i definitely don't feel like a boy.

im just kinda here like "yep hi im a person and i like pie"

>w>

<w<

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When they send you an email inviting to a women's event, which invites all self-identifying females, and you don't feel welcome even though you're a female :(

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As far as I'm concerned, regarding fictional characters at least, you might as well flip a coin in order to determine their gender [and yes, I know how that sounds to people who value notions of gender a lot].

Yep, I don't get the concern about gender either. I have a friend of whom I don't know if they is male of female (looks androgynous + has a gender neutral name + a quite androgynous voice), but I haven't known this person long, we talked maybe twice. But I don't care, I like them :)

I don't get people trying to figure out gender of someone who looks androgynous. A person, fellow human being - what else is needed here and now? Is gender needed to talk with somebody about mundane stuff such as a thing you buy? Hobbies? Interests? Feelings? Or even quantum physics? Duh.

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I usually remember "female", but only by rote, and sometimes when I'm tired I forget that typically, "female" means "woman" to most people :P

I can always forget what's my gender :P And if I'm tired - especially. High five !

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Not my story, but a fun one all the same. I was sat on a park bench with a friend, discussing gender and whatnot and how she didn't really feel very strongly in either direction, and some teenagers rolled up, wanting to be clever. One gave her a really puzzled look, clearly confused by short hair and lack of make up, and said 'are you a boy or a girl?'

Of course, we just fell about laughing. The timing was perfect.

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  • 4 weeks later...

On the screen: Text one of these phone numbers to join a group. This phone number for guys, this one for girls.

Me: ...Now what do I do?

Going shopping for sweat pants. I pick out a pair from the "men's" section because I like the color, and I like the pockets, and I don't feel like I'm on display wearing them. My mom gets a little concerned because I'm picking clothes from the "wrong" section.

Got home from college the day before. My mom says we're going to my cousin's wedding and I have to wear a dress. She knows I'd rather go in slacks, but it's in a Baptist church, which means a dress code (for lack of a better term). I don't have time to argue, and I'm not comfortable coming out right then and there, so I just grin and bear it for the afternoon.

On a happier note, there are non-gendered bathrooms in my college's new gym. Hooray!

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It's something of that, I'm certain. From what I recall, the event also came about to some extent because Tolkien felt that it was a copout in Macbeth to focus on the "of woman born" rather than "no man", similar to the Ents owing some of their origin to "Till Birnam forest come to Dunsinane".

Hah, I can just imagine this! Young John Tolkien reading the Scottish Play for the first time and imagining with awe that, in this time of mist and witches, the forest itself will walk across the landscape, and then feeling totally bummed out when it's just a bunch of soldiers carrying foliage about. And then, decades later, one-upping Shakespeare with a

We come, we come with roll of drum: ta-runda runda runda rom!

We come, we come with horn and drum: ta-runa runa runa rom!

To Isengard! Though Isengard be ringed and barred with doors of stone;

Though Isengard be strong and hard, as cold as stone and bare as bone,

We go, we go, we go to war, to hew the stone and break the door;

For bole and bough are burning now, the furnace roars - we go to war!

To land of gloom with tramp of doom, with roll of drum, we come, we come;

To Isengard with doom we come!

With doom we come, with doom we come!

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I know that one agender (and aro/ace) moment I had not too long ago was when I recently joined my highschool's GSA group. When we did our introductions, I said I was an aromantic asexual. Nothing more. During the next class we had, this guy I sit next to was in the GSA, and I made an offhand remark about my agenderedness. He looked slightly surprised, asking to make sure I was in fact agender. When I confirmed it he smiled and said "oh cool, you're "A" everything! Like an A+!" His positive response is one of my favorites so far.

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I had many agender/trans moments, but this one that happened a couple of days ago is going to remain my favourite one forever:

I dress in a neutral manner and am relatively slim so I am usually mistaken for a teenage boy. This time I was walking a dog with my teenage sister, girls from her school saw us, and the next day at school they asked her if she had finally found a boyfriend :o

Oh, also this one: In the military (IDF) I have two good friends, a not very feminine girl and a metrosexual-style guy who cares about his appearence much more then us two. Once we were sitting next to the unit shop, when some jerk came out of it, looked at me and the guy and said: "Yick, a couple of gays!" My female friend had a good laugh because it was the first time someone didn't assume her and me being a couple of lesbians...

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I know that one agender (and aro/ace) moment I had not too long ago was when I recently joined my highschool's GSA group. When we did our introductions, I said I was an aromantic asexual. Nothing more. During the next class we had, this guy I sit next to was in the GSA, and I made an offhand remark about my agenderedness. He looked slightly surprised, asking to make sure I was in fact agender. When I confirmed it he smiled and said "oh cool, you're "A" everything! Like an A+!" His positive response is one of my favorites so far.

It's so nice to see positive experiences, too) Good for you!

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I know that one agender (and aro/ace) moment I had not too long ago was when I recently joined my highschool's GSA group. When we did our introductions, I said I was an aromantic asexual. Nothing more. During the next class we had, this guy I sit next to was in the GSA, and I made an offhand remark about my agenderedness. He looked slightly surprised, asking to make sure I was in fact agender. When I confirmed it he smiled and said "oh cool, you're "A" everything! Like an A+!" His positive response is one of my favorites so far.

A AAA battery, ready to conquer the world! :D

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I know that one agender (and aro/ace) moment I had not too long ago was when I recently joined my highschool's GSA group. When we did our introductions, I said I was an aromantic asexual. Nothing more. During the next class we had, this guy I sit next to was in the GSA, and I made an offhand remark about my agenderedness. He looked slightly surprised, asking to make sure I was in fact agender. When I confirmed it he smiled and said "oh cool, you're "A" everything! Like an A+!" His positive response is one of my favorites so far.

A AAA battery, ready to conquer the world! :D

:twisted: And everyone will bow down before me!

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  • 2 months later...

Discussing with one of my best friends about hats and gender and respect and the gender expectations that unite them all.

I mentioned that at a lot of public events where the national anthem is sung, men take off their hats as a sign of respect, but women leave their hats on. If I happen to be wearing a hat, it feels right and respectful for me to take it off. I get weird looks from people, looks saying, "Why are you taking off your hat? You're a woman. You don't have to." My silent response is, "It feels right to me. I might look female to you, but I'm not 'a woman'. I'm not really 'a man' either. But mind your own beeswax."

This is one friend who's still trying to wrap his mind around asexuality and genderqueerness. I really think bringing up this example helped him understand me more.

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I went to a support group the other week and just saying "my name is Evren, and my pronouns are they/them" felt amazing. :)

Also I so get the woman's only event thing. My college was having an assualt defensive class, to teach people what to do in case of an assualt. But it was only for women, so I didn't go, i'm more than a little bit sick of the idea that only women are assualted.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Took one of those online tests a few days ago, one on gender identity. I didn't expect anything of it. I just answered truthfully, not trying to influence my final result in one direction or the other.

I can't figure out how to upload a picture, so I'll just type what my answer was: You're subconsciously an even split of male, female, and queer! You're a unique and complex individual who has masculine and feminine sides, and has struggled with their gender identity. You're male, female, and everything in between! You don't fit into the boxes that society tries to put us all in, and you're bored with the old, worn-out labels of gender and sexuality. Be proud of your differences, and never let anyone else tell you to be something that you're not!

It's nice for my genderqueer-ness to be validated, even if it's only being validated by a meaningless online test.

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I tend to see every word as a gender-neutral term by default, even things that are (apparently) obviously not. This led to rather a lot of confusion when I was younger, but I've got it mostly sorted now... or so I think, until a discussion like the below comes up and I realise that even though I keep thinking of things like "mankind" as being rather neutral they actually aren't (I'm quite sure I'd feel the same about "womankind" if that was what was seen more often). I've the unfortunate habit of therefore defaulting to whatever word I think just looks the best, and then that causes confusion in others... eh.

I also really wish that more games just had completely genderless characters or avatars, if you're stuck playing one default character. There's always so much talk about needing more female characters in these roles, and I get that to some extent because it is usually male characters, but why not just have it be unknown? Wouldn't that be easier for everyone? I can just happily ever make an assumption, and other people can make whatever assumption they want. Odd example: part of the reason I like Opposing Force over Blue Shift and Half-Life is that I don't have to make any assumptions about Adrian Sheperd, whereas in the cases of both Barney Calhoun and Gordon Freeman the character is defined. I dunno. Of course, my ultimate preference for games-with-characters (as opposted to RTSs or what) is to be able to make your own character, but that's the incorrigible roleplayer in me speaking.

It's like when Eowyn killed the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings! "No man may kill one" "I AM NO MAN!"

And now all non-binaries are the heros of everything.

That scene was mind-boggling to me. "Man" is a gender-neutral term relative to its usage [sexist though some might consider this to be], and it is used in that sense too. But what that line - more specifically her success in killing the Witch King - implies is that it isn't gender-neutral but exclusively male. And that not only the entire language of Lord of the Rings essentially excludes women, but even the supernatural lore of the entire world does.

If gender is such a big deal to people [and I have to assume that it is], that scene should have caused an outrage, not applause.

I think it was meant to some extent to be a commentary on the inherently sexist lore of the middle ages. It was an applause-worthy event because we had a strong female character, who was good for more than just a love object, but also a cringe-worthy moment about how much it outlined our inherent sexism in western middle-ages mythologies... or at least, that's my take on it.

It's something of that, I'm certain. From what I recall, the event also came about to some extent because Tolkien felt that it was a copout in Macbeth to focus on the "of woman born" rather than "no man", similar to the Ents owing some of their origin to "Till Birnam forest come to Dunsinane".

There are also two other possible ways to take it.

One of them is that the prophecy was actually inaccurate, and although Éowyn herself has interpreted it to mean that it is "no man" in the sense of excluding women, it was meant to be "no man" as in the race of Men, and anyone who stepped up and stabbed the Witch-King in the face would have killed him.

The other one is that it was actually Merry's strike that made him vulnerable (Merry, of course, being a Hobbit), but once that was done, anybody could have killed him and it was Éowyn who was there and had the willpower and skill necessary.

Personally, I think that either it's the above one, or that it hinges upon the capitalisation. Tolkien capitalises species names throughout (Hobbit, Elf, Dwarf, etc.), so assuming that "man" is in fact in lower case in that quote -- which I don't recall off the top of my head but may look up later -- it is almost certainly actually meant as "no male human" as opposed to "no human".

I understood no man as in "the race of Men." But most people seem to interpret it differently.

Otherwise we seem to have "magic girl-parts powers!" and there's something that really rubs me wrong about that.

Interesting about the Ents, fwiw.

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I understood no man as in "the race of Men." But most people seem to interpret it differently.

Otherwise we seem to have "magic girl-parts powers!" and there's something that really rubs me wrong about that.

Interesting about the Ents, fwiw.

Yeah, that's the way I see it as well. I don't think Merry's contribution being necessary to killing the Witch-King (rather because he was a Hobbit or because it was foretold a non-human would be the one to use that particular blade) lessens Éowyn's contribution to that either, but I know there are definitely people who disagree.

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The-world-is-quiet-here

When the dress code is that "men wear slacks and a tie" and "women wear dresses." So. . . What do I wear? A tie and a dress? Slacks and a skirt (layers)? A tuxedo?

When you misgender yourself in your head, first as female, then male, then, "oh, fine, you're human."

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When the dress code is that "men wear slacks and a tie" and "women wear dresses." So. . . What do I wear? A tie and a dress? Slacks and a skirt (layers)? A tuxedo?

I wear sometimes a suit, sometimes a dress :P If a dress, then usually black (or dark blue). Depends on occasion. I haven't been brave enough to wear a shirt with a tie and men's dress shoes yet, though. Just with a plain blouse, a necklace and black heels.

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Dodecahedron314

When the dress code is that "men wear slacks and a tie" and "women wear dresses." So. . . What do I wear? A tie and a dress? Slacks and a skirt (layers)? A tuxedo?

I feel this. I was conflicted when this was the statement of the dress code for my wind ensemble, but I just wound up wearing dress pants and a collared shirt (all black) with a vaguely lace-ish femme-ish vest and nobody batted an eye (thankfully my wind ensemble is pretty chill about this sort of thing). I'm going to try and buy more masc-ish clothes this weekend and see if I can pull off wearing a suit for the next concert next week.

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When they send you an email inviting to a women's event, which invites all self-identifying females, and you don't feel welcome even though you're a female :(

Thats kinda why I don't really bother going to events at my church ... They cut it straight down the middle where they have events geared towards the men, women and children. At least children is fairly ambiguous to all but I've long aged out of childhood so thats not really applicable to me right now xD

When the dress code is that "men wear slacks and a tie" and "women wear dresses." So. . . What do I wear? A tie and a dress? Slacks and a skirt (layers)? A tuxedo?

When you misgender yourself in your head, first as female, then male, then, "oh, fine, you're human."

Yeaaaaa thats hard xD Then again this is coming from someone who didn't even bother to go to any proms, homecomings, or dances while in high school.

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I just realized that that my brothers all have really long hair, and my sisters really short hair and my hair is just somewhere in between =3

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Took one of those online tests a few days ago, one on gender identity. I didn't expect anything of it. I just answered truthfully, not trying to influence my final result in one direction or the other.

I can't figure out how to upload a picture, so I'll just type what my answer was: You're subconsciously an even split of male, female, and queer! You're a unique and complex individual who has masculine and feminine sides, and has struggled with their gender identity. You're male, female, and everything in between! You don't fit into the boxes that society tries to put us all in, and you're bored with the old, worn-out labels of gender and sexuality. Be proud of your differences, and never let anyone else tell you to be something that you're not!

It's nice for my genderqueer-ness to be validated, even if it's only being validated by a meaningless online test.

I took that same one! My result was 5% male, 5% female, and 90% queer! It's perfect :P

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AnotherWeasley

It's like when Eowyn killed the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings! "No man may kill one" "I AM NO MAN!"

And now all non-binaries are the heros of everything.

That scene was mind-boggling to me. "Man" is a gender-neutral term relative to its usage [sexist though some might consider this to be], and it is used in that sense too. But what that line - more specifically her success in killing the Witch King - implies is that it isn't gender-neutral but exclusively male. And that not only the entire language of Lord of the Rings essentially excludes women, but even the supernatural lore of the entire world does.

If gender is such a big deal to people [and I have to assume that it is], that scene should have caused an outrage, not applause.

I think it was meant to some extent to be a commentary on the inherently sexist lore of the middle ages. It was an applause-worthy event because we had a strong female character, who was good for more than just a love object, but also a cringe-worthy moment about how much it outlined our inherent sexism in western middle-ages mythologies... or at least, that's my take on it.

I think what you have to remember is that LotR (and the rest of the Tolkienverse) was written in the 1930s through to 50s. To me, the "I am no man" moment does serve to, as you said, outline the inherent sexism in western middle-ages mythologies, but also to draw attention to the reader's potential - and also inherent - sexism. By saying that "no man can kill" the Witchking, Tolkien set the average reader of the time up to think that the Witchking couldn't be killed at all, which is then subverted by Eowyn killing him.

Tolkien was operating on the basis of a binary gender concept, so be honest, I don't think you can really judge this from an agender perspective because that issue wasn't even close to being dealt with back when Tolkien wrote the books, or even, I'd say, when the films were made. This is a feminist issue more than anything and even that was both still in its first stages and very different from the way it is today. One of the main points was that "women can be like men" and that those "male" qualities made them "strong", which I think is the premise Tolkien is applying. Eowyn clearly states/shows that she can be as strong and as proactive as any man, even though she is a woman (and also displays traditionally more feminine qualities in other parts of the book). From a modern point of view, we'd either say "women don't have to be like men/display "male" characteristics in order to be "strong" or, as I believe most people on this thread would say, "what are "male" and "female" characteristics anyway and why do people care so much about gender?" But I really think we have to judge Tolkien in the historical context of his time and he was definitely progressive if you look at it like that.

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In my very first post here, I referenced several of my favorite agender moments from preschool to present. I may link it later, but I'm on a phone and can't find jack with the weird phone version of the site.

My life is one big agender adventure. I've never felt like a gender and I've always felt totally cool with that. It felt so natural that I assumed everyone else had the problem because they gave too much thought and care about their own gender.

I only asked what my gender I'd might be because I just decided, "What the heck? Why not? Everyone else seems to have a label here, maybe I have one too." Before that, I never thought gender was worth looking into. Now that I know, I'm into it. It's great to have a word for it.

Agender is the best thing, imo. I wouldn't change it for anything.

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