got laws?

[butterflydreams]

I've always been kind of an amateur legal-buff. It probably started when I used to get into debates in high school for the hell of it. I would literally argue a point solely because I thought it would be fun or challenging. Yes, I've argued against gay marriage and a whole host of other things. It's good practice to sharpen your debate skills and also sympathize with and understand different viewpoints.

Anyway, I happened to come across this wikipedia page and found it very interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States

Especially the laws section. I've got a word for how the laws come across to me, and it rhymes with "musterbluck". I'm probably a ways away from any name or marker changes myself, but it's always good to understand what's involved.

One thing that was interesting to me was how there seems to be a substantial difference between changing gender markers on say, a driver's license as opposed to a birth certificate. And more convoluted is that if you were born in one state and live in another, it can get really shitty. For example, I was born in Massachusetts, but I don't live there anymore. In Vermont, there's no surgery requirement to have a birth certificate amended or changed, but in Massachusetts there is , so that's what I'd have to comply with. Very surprising actually. Come on Massachusetts...if even live-free-or-die New Hampshire says you don't need surgery, you need to get with the times.

As far as I know, a birth certificate isn't used for very much. So having it be old isn't too big a deal in my mind. Fortunately, Vermont is one of the states that basically only requires a legal document and possibly a letter from a doctor/psychiatrist about the gender change in order to change markers on driver's licenses. I can't seem to find a list of the laws on that for all states, but this is a good resource to look up specific states: http://transequality.org/documents

Fortunately it seems like the Feds have no surgery requirement for their documents. So updating your passport for example would depend only on the federal laws.

I also found this blog: https://vtveto.wordpress.com/transitioning-in-vermont/Yes I realize there probably aren't many people for whom that will be useful, but it sure is useful to me. They have a page that lists laser/electrolysis places that are transwomen friendly. Sweet! That was something I had been super concerned about, and a primary reason I haven't even looked into it.

One of the reasons I like the U.S. is because we do so many things at a state level. This is both an advantage and a flaw though. Ask anyone in New England about New Hampshire and they'll surely tell you, "Yeah! Woot! No sales tax! Fireworks! Everything goes!" And everybody has the freedom to go there and do that, and if they like it, maybe lobby their own state to legalize fireworks and remove sales tax or just move to New Hampshire. But clearly the patchwork of laws regarding transgender people isn't working so well. I don't need fireworks. I don't need to avoid sales tax. Having a consistent set of rules on updating identity documents across the country seems like a no brainer though. People need those things.

Sorry I only have links related to the US here. That's just where I live. I'd love it if people wanted to share links and info about laws elsewhere in the world though :)

[Certified Cake Decorator]

i was born in ohio, where, as far as i know, i cant EVER change my fucking birth certificate. -_-

it's stupid. sorry for the language, but it is just SOOOOOOOOO dumb!!!

Good luck to you though!

[butterflydreams]

Ugh! I hear ya. There's like half a dozen states that just won't change birth certificates. Hopefully they'll realize they're in the minority and update their policies. Patently ridiculous :( I always say that if Maine is more progressive than your state, then your state needs to do some real self-reflection.

[Heart]

Wow. Well, I have to say, I've never used my birth certificate in my life. My mom still keeps it, it's that unlikely I'd need it for ID :P Once you have a passport and driver's license, those are usually plenty enough for any place that requires government issued ID. The only thing I think I've EVER needed the birth certificate for was to get the passport. But if you already have one, and then changing the gender on it is a federal thing, then it probably doesn't even matter what's on your birth certificate.

I mean, you may want to change it anyways (if you get surgery) just for completeness, and because you never know. But for now, I'd say it's pretty useless :P

(Disclaimer: I'm Canadian, so maybe in the states you guys actually use the birth certificates? My advice only applies if it's like here ;) )

[butterflydreams]

Hehe, yeah, I really can't think of anything (other than obtaining other identity documents) you need a birth certificate for. Obviously the biggie is your driver's license, since that's the main ID you use everywhere. If it says "M" on it and you're clearly not, how many problems is that going to cause? I guess there was a very, very brief time when you could actually use a birth certificate to cross the border from Canada into the US. Right between the time when they didn't care at all and took your word for it and now when they insist on either a passport or enhanced ID.

I also saw a lot of stuff regarding social security cards. There's no gender marker on there as far as I'm aware, so I'm not sure what that's about. Maybe it had to do with name changes. I feel like a name change has to be way easier though. People do that all the time when getting married, or just because.

[Chardog]

SS card would be name change.. The trans thing with state differences will end up being another gay marriage type battle eventually..

I'm from WA originally- also doesn't require surgery for a gender change (don't think I'll ever go that far though).

[Certified Cake Decorator]

i just think it's dumb that my step mother could legally change my birth certificate to say /she/ birthed me when she didnt, but i cant change the marker that says "gender". not even kidding it doesnt even say sex. it says gender.

why does a quarter page piece of paper have to be so mean?

Only a quarter page, because in ohio, you arent worth an entire page! lol

it's all very dumb and ridiculous. and dumb.

[dash]

Hadley: Yeah, I'm quite familiar with this. I'm a lawyer. :P

The Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition has to my knowledge been focusing much of its efforts on securing public accommodations protections in MA (which we didn't get with the last statutory update), and strategically, that makes sense -- allowing folks to change their gender markers without surgery is a big deal, but securing equal access to public spaces for trans people (who had surgery or not) is a more immediate concern.

http://www.masstpc.org/take-action/legislation/public-accommodations/

There are reasons to change one's birth certificate. This website (http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/birth-certificate.html) lists a few, though with the adoption of same sex marriage nation-wide, one of the biggest reasons to do it has now been eliminated.

There may, however, still be issues when it comes to adoption and/or custody of children, travel, and stealth.

The complex tangled web of laws is part of the reason why it's so "funny" that so many (legally ignorant) people insist that "male" and "female" are clear-cut, binary categories. When it comes to transgender (and possibly intersex) people, every jurisdiction and agency has its own set of criteria for determining who is one and who is the other. Every state, plus the federal government, plus each state agency (such as Social Security), plus immigration, plus every foreign country one might visit or live in, etc. has their own test and standards. (And Australia has created a third legal gender category recently. There is no reason the law must limit sex or gender to only two options.)

Gender isn't just a social construct -- the law constructs gender. And as we see here, the law constructs sex as well. And then because "legal sex" is a fuzzy category (and partially a legal fiction) in the first place, no one can agree what it even means! (So those of is who know something about law can shake our heads at the people who insist that medical science has defined precisely who is male and who is female! If that were so, there would be one clear test, and no legal confusion, no?)

Oh, and if you don't change your Social Security records, you can get outed at work. It happened to someone I knew years ago, whose boss got a letter of "mismatch" about him, saying that his gender on file with them didn't match his other forms. They do this as a way to catch Social Security fraud, but transgender people get caught up in the net sometimes, and since the notification went to his employer, that meant he was called into his boss' office and asked about it, and got outed.

[butterflydreams]

Very interesting, thanks, dash!

I'd like to believe that the majority of these rules and laws are in place to help catch identity fraud. You know, so you can't rob a liquor store and change your name to avoid the felony on your record. Maybe some places use the laws specifically to go after trans people, but why? It doesn't make any sense. I'm sure a lot of it is trans people just getting caught in the drag net. Of course that doesn't mean it's not worth changing.

Good call about the birth certificates and marriage. Marriage is so far off my radar I didn't even consider that being a major issue. And you're right that with gay marriage being pretty much legal across the board, it's less of an issue.

I didn't realize about the social security thing though, that's a good point as well. Might be a kind of litmus test. Yeah, being outed would suck, but if it was a problem for the employer, do I really want to be working there? I'm very particular about the places I choose to work. I didn't use to be that way, but I have a lot of friends from college who work for defense contractors and it really showed me how where I choose to work can be a powerful message about what I'm willing to support and what I'm not.

[Dodecahedron314]

I'd like to believe that the majority of these rules and laws are in place to help catch identity fraud. You know, so you can't rob a liquor store and change your name to avoid the felony on your record. Maybe some places use the laws specifically to go after trans people, but why? It doesn't make any sense. I'm sure a lot of it is trans people just getting caught in the drag net. Of course that doesn't mean it's not worth changing.

*cough cough*FLORIDA*cough cough*

We literally have a legislator who wants to ban trans people from using the bathroom of the gender they identify as, because hey, you just never know if some creepy guy is going to try and say he's female to use the women's restroom and stare at the women, right? Clearly, the only way to keep this from happening is to make sure no male-looking people ever go in there. How are we going to know if they're actually female? Easy, driver's license! Never mind all the rigamarole that you have to go through to get your gender changed on your driver's license, we'll just look at people's driver's licenses anyway! (That's how we know they're serious about their gender identity, after all. If they were *really* trans, they would have gotten it changed no matter how much of a pain it is!) And if their driver's licenses don't match the bathroom, then just arrest them! No problem, right? Yep. Definitely totally logical. Am I Florida-ing right? (source: http://flaglerlive.com/75949/lgbt-bathroom-bill/)

...oh, dang, sorry, I just dripped sarcasm all over the floor. Let me go get a paper towel or something.

Gah...I'm so glad I'm getting out of this state in a couple of weeks...but I fear for my trans friends who are still stuck here for college.

[UncommonNonsense]

{Gotta insert a warning here. I'm quoting a very ugly term that someone called me a few years ago in this post. I don't use this term myself and hate it when people use it to describe trans-people. I'm quoting it only as a way to illustrate one reason why I was afraid to pursue information about de-gendering my chest via breast reduction or mastectomy. Also, a trigger warning due to some rather graphic surgical descriptions and a very traumatic surgical experience.}

I'm FtN, and while I don't intend to change my name or the gender on my ID and records, I am hoping to have top surgery to de-feminize my chest. I am not interested in male chest contouring, I just want rid of these unwanted breasts that puberty saw fit to sic on me without even asking whether I wanted them. Of all the nerve! I don't even care if I still have nipples once the surgery is over, though I know that the surgeons preserve those bits. I guess that shows just how little I actually care about anything to do with the breasts. I can't even bring myself to call them mine.

I had been putting off even asking about whether an FtN person would qualify for surgery usually done for FtM people, since the only information I had had been current in the 90's.. and that said that the person seeking this type of surgery had to be 'truly' trans (wanting to become as close to 100% male as possible, taking T, doing both chest and genital surgery, changing their name and all their ID, etc.. not 'half-trans' people like me [and before anyone jumps on me for that phrasing, I did get called that by someone online a few years ago, when I first began looking into this.. well, I actually got called a 'half-assed tranny' because I didn't want to switch from one gender to the other]). I was actually scared to look into it further because if I found out that nothing had changed about whether someone like me would qualify, I would lose hope completely. I could stand not knowing... But I couldn't stand having to face being informed that what I want wasn't allowed. Kind of silly, huh?

At any rate, another AVEN member sent me some awesome info in a PM, and told me that I would not be prevented from getting top surgery just because I identify as Agender and not male. And that led me to emailing a group from BC who gave me even more info, and where I can call to set up an intake appointment with the people who help trans-people through the process in Ontario, where I live. So now, I'm putting in the serious, deep thinking I need to do in order to determine whether I'm ready to face major surgery in order to get the body that fits me best.

I am scared, since I woke up during an appendectomy when I was 17. I could hear the surgical staff conversing, feel them pulling on tissues inside me, and hear the sounds that their movement caused as they worked inside me, but I was unable to move or speak or otherwise indicate that I was fully conscious. It felt like a very long time before the anesthesiologist noticed that I wasn't gorked out and gave me more of whatever it was that was supposed to have sent me off to oblivion, but it was likely no more than five minutes. That said, I'm told that anaesthetic awareness is incredibly rare and getting even rarer every year. And I did undergo my hysterectomy 9 years after that episode of anaesthetic awareness, and that surgery went off without a hitch. So I'm determined not to allow my fear keep me from doing what I need to do.

[dash]

Very interesting, thanks, dash!

I'd like to believe that the majority of these rules and laws are in place to help catch identity fraud. You know, so you can't rob a liquor store and change your name to avoid the felony on your record. Maybe some places use the laws specifically to go after trans people, but why? It doesn't make any sense. I'm sure a lot of it is trans people just getting caught in the drag net. Of course that doesn't mean it's not worth changing.

Good call about the birth certificates and marriage. Marriage is so far off my radar I didn't even consider that being a major issue. And you're right that with gay marriage being pretty much legal across the board, it's less of an issue.

I didn't realize about the social security thing though, that's a good point as well. Might be a kind of litmus test. Yeah, being outed would suck, but if it was a problem for the employer, do I really want to be working there? I'm very particular about the places I choose to work. I didn't use to be that way, but I have a lot of friends from college who work for defense contractors and it really showed me how where I choose to work can be a powerful message about what I'm willing to support and what I'm not.

I think it's rare that the ID mismatch laws are used specifically to target trans people, rather than trans people getting caught in the document mismatch dragnet. The Real ID statute was also going to be a problem, I heard, but this was long ago, so I don't know what happened with that recently, as pertains to trans people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

As some folks live in states where they legally cannot change their birth certificate under any circumstances (not to mention the people who can, in theory, but the administrative, medical and financial hurdles are too high to clear), some people will always have a document mismatch, and this sucks.

If you have the option to choose to work in a place that's not transphobic, awesome. That's always better. But a lot of people (including some folks who regularly read this forum) just don't have that option. I'm very fortunate that if my employer ever found out I'm agender/non-binary, I'm pretty sure no one would care at all. A lot of trans/nonbinary people don't have that luxury. :( And most states don't have employment protections for trans people.

And if someone's state doesn't have housing protections, a document mismatch that comes to the attention of your landlord (if you rent) can lead to an eviction. There's a lot of ways that document mismatches can suck, though things should get better with universal same sex marriage (read, taking gender out of the legalities of marriage). And immigration... wow that was an issue. Without same sex marriage, a partner (at least in some cases) couldn't sponsor their lover to come to the US.

[Certified Cake Decorator]

I'd like to believe that the majority of these rules and laws are in place to help catch identity fraud. You know, so you can't rob a liquor store and change your name to avoid the felony on your record. Maybe some places use the laws specifically to go after trans people, but why? It doesn't make any sense. I'm sure a lot of it is trans people just getting caught in the drag net. Of course that doesn't mean it's not worth changing.

*cough cough*FLORIDA*cough cough*

We literally have a legislator who wants to ban trans people from using the bathroom of the gender they identify as, because hey, you just never know if some creepy guy is going to try and say he's female to use the women's restroom and stare at the women, right? Clearly, the only way to keep this from happening is to make sure no male-looking people ever go in there. How are we going to know if they're actually female? Easy, driver's license! Never mind all the rigamarole that you have to go through to get your gender changed on your driver's license, we'll just look at people's driver's licenses anyway! (That's how we know they're serious about their gender identity, after all. If they were *really* trans, they would have gotten it changed no matter how much of a pain it is!) And if their driver's licenses don't match the bathroom, then just arrest them! No problem, right? Yep. Definitely totally logical. Am I Florida-ing right? (source: http://flaglerlive.com/75949/lgbt-bathroom-bill/)

...oh, dang, sorry, I just dripped sarcasm all over the floor. Let me go get a paper towel or something.

Gah...I'm so glad I'm getting out of this state in a couple of weeks...but I fear for my trans friends who are still stuck here for college.

Right? I want to move from here but it's like, i cant find a better place to live that doesnt have mountains and isnt going to cost an arm and a leg (california. im looking at you!)

where the heck are us poor florida folk supposed to go? back to ohio?! Thats not any better!

[butterflydreams]

If you have the option to choose to work in a place that's not transphobic, awesome. That's always better. But a lot of people (including some folks who regularly read this forum) just don't have that option. I'm very fortunate that if my employer ever found out I'm agender/non-binary, I'm pretty sure no one would care at all. A lot of trans/nonbinary people don't have that luxury. :( And most states don't have employment protections for trans people.

And if someone's state doesn't have housing protections, a document mismatch that comes to the attention of your landlord (if you rent) can lead to an eviction. There's a lot of ways that document mismatches can suck, though things should get better with universal same sex marriage (read, taking gender out of the legalities of marriage). And immigration... wow that was an issue. Without same sex marriage, a partner (at least in some cases) couldn't sponsor their lover to come to the US.

Yeah, absolutely. I didn't mean to imply that everyone could or should exercise that option. If you have it though, I think it's very powerful. Oh, you don't want to hire trans people, or you want to treat them like shit? Fine, the government won't make you, but I'll just go sell my amazing skills to someone who will treat me right. Enjoy going out of business.

The housing one is a real pain though. In the original link I posted it has maps of what protections are available in what states. The employment one was pretty slim, but the housing one was even more slim. Yikes. It's hard to know what to do about that. Even if you have the laws in place, how would you defend that case? Couldn't the landlord just say they evicted you for some other reason? How could you prove it? That's part of the reason I strive to be the best tenant my landlord has ever seen. He doesn't need a calendar because when I hand him a check, it's the first of the month. And I've done that for 5 years. Building a history of responsibility and trustworthiness. Sometimes that's all you can do.

I'd like to believe that the majority of these rules and laws are in place to help catch identity fraud. You know, so you can't rob a liquor store and change your name to avoid the felony on your record. Maybe some places use the laws specifically to go after trans people, but why? It doesn't make any sense. I'm sure a lot of it is trans people just getting caught in the drag net. Of course that doesn't mean it's not worth changing.

*cough cough*FLORIDA*cough cough*

We literally have a legislator who wants to ban trans people from using the bathroom of the gender they identify as, because hey, you just never know if some creepy guy is going to try and say he's female to use the women's restroom and stare at the women, right? Clearly, the only way to keep this from happening is to make sure no male-looking people ever go in there. How are we going to know if they're actually female? Easy, driver's license! Never mind all the rigamarole that you have to go through to get your gender changed on your driver's license, we'll just look at people's driver's licenses anyway! (That's how we know they're serious about their gender identity, after all. If they were *really* trans, they would have gotten it changed no matter how much of a pain it is!) And if their driver's licenses don't match the bathroom, then just arrest them! No problem, right? Yep. Definitely totally logical. Am I Florida-ing right? (source: http://flaglerlive.com/75949/lgbt-bathroom-bill/)

...oh, dang, sorry, I just dripped sarcasm all over the floor. Let me go get a paper towel or something.

Gah...I'm so glad I'm getting out of this state in a couple of weeks...but I fear for my trans friends who are still stuck here for college.

Right? I want to move from here but it's like, i cant find a better place to live that doesnt have mountains and isnt going to cost an arm and a leg (california. im looking at you!)

where the heck are us poor florida folk supposed to go? back to ohio?! Thats not any better!

New Jersey? New York (not the city)? Massachusetts is ok too. I'm probably used to the high costs in the northeast, but I think compared to California it's still a pretty good deal. For cost and good laws, all of New England won't be too bad. Stay out of Connecticut and Rhode Island (super expensive). Vermont is really good law-wise, but can be expensive. Pretty sure Maine isn't that bad either. Some people have told me good things about pockets of North Carolina, but I'm still pretty skeptical.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

But that didn't work for Alan Turing. How different would the world be today if he hadn't have ended his own life after being kicked off his job and forced to undergo unwanted HRT? There was a guy who had cosmic-league amazing skills, and it didn't save him. Just sayin'......

And what of someone like me, who like Sally Ride, never comes out because she knows the consequences? And knows that I could never do things like weapons systems because I'd probably have major trouble getting a security clearance? I know that's changed in recent years since the Iraq War, where the war department denied itself the services of some of the best language people on the planet because many were gay?

Sometimes, it takes law to get the ball rolling, to build a more open and less prejudiced society where one need not fear something as inconsequential as being LGBT.

[butterflydreams]

But that didn't work for Alan Turing. How different would the world be today if he hadn't have ended his own life after being kicked off his job and forced to undergo unwanted HRT? There was a guy who had cosmic-league amazing skills, and it didn't save him. Just sayin'......

Yup. And we're all suffering for that loss...even today :( I'll be honest, that movie about him that came out recently (I think it was called Imitation Game), I wanted to watch it, but couldn't bring myself to do it.

I would never claim it's universal, but I know for me, I've never had any power in life. Grew up poor. Still mostly just breaking even today. It's comforting to me to know that at the end of the day, no matter what, in my back pocket I always have the option to flip someone (everyone?) off and walk away. When you don't have much, self-respect and pride might be all you have left. Right or wrong, it's how I see the world.

Agreed that sometimes you need a law to bootstrap things. The only thing I worry about with laws is if they get enacted carelessly, they can often have the opposite effect. They can make certain people feel like they're being steamrolled over which can cause them to dig in and fight back. Heck, even I've done that. Even when I might've agreed with the law. People tend to dig in if they feel like they're being forcibly pushed. I think you have to make sure you're using an olive branch, and not a sword. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.